jozeff: trying to come off of citalopram - a little help would be great

[jozeff]

Thank you Gridley!

 

Ok 5 weeks isn't that long but I'm a bit desperate you know. The days are sometimes very looooong when you don't feel stable. Shouldn't a small updose like let's say 1 or 2 mg be ok and taper from there to decrease withdrawal or will that make things worse. I mean According to brass monkeys taper I should be at 18.5mg by now instead of 16.5 which I tapered myself.

[Gridley]

Please keep in mind that an updose can be risky and make you worse, not better.  Where you "should be" is irrelevant.  You did what you did and are where you are.  jozeff, you are overthinking, which is common in withdrawal.  I can give you no better advice than to hold where you are.  Brassmonkey, who is a senior and quite knowledgable moderator, has said the same thing.  

[jozeff]

Ok thanks for your advice. Appreciate it a lot!

 

Jozeff

[jozeff]

It seems like it is every hour a different emotion. Waking up great, after breakfast feel like crying and don't know what to do. Grab myself and force myself to do anything but lying in the sofa. Then depression starts to fade and somehow anxiety kicks in. My heart rate goes up, I get worried and start hyperventilating a bit. Nausea of course.... Start walking, reading, talking to my wife, sitting in my son's small pool.....anything to relax my mind. After that the sad feelings kick in and I manage to get through the day somewhat depressed. In the evening everything seems ok and I'm surprisingly relaxed, have fun, laugh en read some stuff.

 

And that is on a nonworking day. When I'm at work my mind is busy and I'm much less aware of my body, thoughts and feelings.

 

I hardly remember the old days when month after month none of this seems to exist. I just want to live without all this sh..

 

It's very very tempting to go from 16.5 mg celexa to a slightly higher dose when my symptoms were less worse. I was an alcoholic in the past and managed to not drink a drop in the last 4.5 years of which I'm very proud. This celexa withdrawal is harder to be honest. I see cheap beer and liqueur everyday in the supermarket but I think about ssri, celexa, WD, tapering a 100 times more.

 

So, for you alcoholics, don't worry it's easy to not drink.. no seriously ssri are actually very addictive. You get awful WD, you think about your dose a lot, start reading other people's stories, have terrible physical and mental feelings.

 

Tapering alcohol would also be better but nearly impossible because when you start drinking you don't give a f... About your tapering schedule 😉

 

Thank you especially Gridley and brass monkey for trying to keep me on track.

 

Have a nice day!

 

Jozeff

 

 

[jozeff]

Hi all,

 

After some horrendous days I uppedy dose a bit from 16.5 to 18 mg citalopram. I tapered from 25 to 16.5 in 85 days and have been on 16.5 for 5 weeks. 

 

I tapered a little too fast, did this in the past but faster back then. Went from 20gto 15 mg last year but without taper. After few weeks on 15mg I crashed and went straight up to 20mg again ( felt much better after few days). And to 25 mg few weeks later.

 

I hope my little updose will take the edge off and that I'll be able to stabilize on that dose. I'll try a much slower taper later.

 

So let s see what my 1.5 mg increase can do for me. I know you did advice me not to do this but it felt so bad. I had some derealization and severe anxiety. 

 

Jozeff

[Altostrata]

Hello, jozeff. Please let us know how you're doing on the slightly higher dose.

[jozeff]

Hi Alto, I'll keep everyone informed. I'm pretty curious myself.😉

 

A small change in dose can have effect. I don't know exactly why because receptor occupancy doesn't change much according to the graphs I've been studying a bit.

 

So I'll go back to 18 mg citalopram, this is the dose I was on 7 weeks ago while I was tapering.

I should have built in stabilizing weeks like brass monkey but I didn't know this website back then.

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[Altostrata]

A small change can have a significant effect because your nervous system has become sensitized to drugs.

[jozeff]

I updosed to 18 mg citalopram two days ago because of horrible WD. I had been on 16.5 for five weeks but couldn't take it any longer.

 

Before updose I had the flu and vomited all night, high fever also. Could that have triggered some extra nasty WD symptoms? I took my meds after vomiting. I felt so bad completely crawling out of my skin....

 

Like this fever triggered every nerve in my body. I came back early in the middle of the night from a mini vacation because my son was ill. That stress didn't help eather I guess.

 

Any wise thoughts on that??

 

 

Thanks

 

Jozeff

[Happy2Heal]

hi Jozeff,

yes being sick can trigger worse symptoms

 

your body is in a very fragile state right now and you want to treat yourself with great care.

 

you will probably have a lot of symptoms coming and going, some milder than others, they will feel like they come in waves. In between the waves, you will feel better, we call these windows.

 

it's a long process to be sure but the fewer changes you make, the better it is for your brain and the easier things will be.

 

I made far too many changes and did them too fast and I deeply regretted that. 

you may not feel better from your updose right away. you may feel worse, if you went up too much.

 

it's best to try VERY hard to stay at a stable dose. believe me,  I know how very hard that is to do when you are feeling bad!!

 

try to find other ways to deal with the symptoms.  In withdrawal/recovery, we learn that there is no quick fix, drugs are not the answer to all our problems, and most importantly, that we are STRONG and can handle symptoms without drugs.  We can learn coping methods for emotions that will help us through out the rest of our lives.

 

take a look at the self care threads, you can learn about different things like meditating, yoga, gentle exercise, changing the channel, and so many other ways to cope with distressing feelings.

 

remember that feelings are always temporary and that while they can feel awful, they can not hurt us.

 

you are very smart and it's great you are looking around and reading as much here as you can, it will help you a lot

 

you will find many people with similar symptoms as you, and many who have been at this for a long time. Do not get discouraged, people do get off these drugs and recover and go on to have a normal life.

 

as you have seen my post on another person's thread, I am now off all the psych drugs and doing great! I did have a short wave of symptoms recently, but it was very mild and seems to be mostly over.

 

you will get to where I am too, but you will get there with the fewest symptoms if you go very slow and try to keep things STEADY

 

next time you feel the urge to change you dose, post here or send me a PM and I will try my best to help you get thru whatever symptoms you are having.

 

we are all in this together. The support I've gotten here has been wonderful. 

I hope to be able to help someone else the way that I've been helped

 

hang in there, you're going to be ok!!!

 

 

[jozeff]

Thank you h2h!! 

Appreciate it.

 

I wanted to make as little changes as possible. I went from 20 mg citalopram to 15 mg last year without taper and after few months( I didn't write it down unfortunately) I crashed hard. Major panick attack and it was absolutely horrendous because two days later I had a long flight and I didn't have anything to calm me down.

I was a nerve wreck when I came home an upped to 20 my immediately. Started taking 25 mg a few week later (december2017). That's the dose I am trying to come off. I tapered this time to 16.5 mg but after being sick and symptoms getting worse I decided to upy dose by 10% to take the edge of. So now I take 18mg. I don't know if it's smart to up a bit but it helped me significantly last year.

 

My plan is to stay on this dose for a few months until I'm stable and then start a very very slow taper. 

 

I bought some high quality b12 today. (Methylcobalamine). I used a very cheap vitamine b complex which didn't do much for me except make my pi.. almost glow in the dark.

 

How much should I start using the b12. I'm thinking of a very low dose to check. It is of course another parameter but I'm curious if it would do any good for me. 

 

I also use magnesium chloride 400 mg elemental Mg and high grade fish oil (1.5 g).

 

Thank you for all your help!!!

[brassmonkey]

There's a really good chance that the B12 will make things worse.  Some people can use it but for most people in ADWD it is over stimulating and causes a lot of problems.  The "glow in the dark" coloration is an indication that you're taking too much B12, the body doesn't need very much of it.

[AuntiLu]

How are you doing today, Jozeff?

[jozeff]

Hi auntilu! Thanks for asking!

 

I'm doing ok on average. This morning I felt absolutely horrible. A lot of nervous feeling in my neck shoulders and back of my head. I got up and watched some TV with my son. I drank a little cup of coffee and the bad feeling went away. After 2 Hours I felt uncomfortable again so I went swimming for 4 hours with my son. That was great. Bit nervous now and then but not too much trouble.

I had an appointment with my psychiatrist and talked about it. I bought some cbd Oil, tried 2 drops but didn't notice Any difference. After dinner a warm nervous feeling crawled up my neck and back of my head again. Like i had 20 coffees. this feeling has been on and off For The Last week's en dit is completely new To Me. It is not real anxiety, my heart rate Stays the same, but I get up very unpleasant feeling between my eyes and in the back of my neck and shoulders. Like a lot of nerves are tingling. Like fever in the back of my head.... don't know how to get rid of that. Don't want to grab oxazepam all the time 🤔🤔. Use like 3 tablets a week which is more than enough for me. I'm very sensitive to additiction.

 

What could that nasty feeling be? It also feels sad and unhappy. Dissapears not completely but sometimes it's much worse then others.

 

I didn't up my dose so want to stay at 18 mg citalopram.

 

Thank you and have a nice day!

 

It's a nice warm evening in the Netherlands

[jozeff]

 

Added:

 

I haven't been takingy new b12 supplement since brass monkey told me it could be over stimulating right now. That's the last thing I need right now. Cbd oil didn't do much for me as far as I can tell....

Want to know what the neck, back head nerve feeling is I mentioned in my previous message..... Thanks!!

[AuntiLu]

8 hours ago, jozeff said:

 

Added:

 

I haven't been takingy new b12 supplement since brass monkey told me it could be over stimulating right now. That's the last thing I need right now. Cbd oil didn't do much for me as far as I can tell....

Want to know what the neck, back head nerve feeling is I mentioned in my previous message..... Thanks!!

Hi Jozeff, good to hear from you.  I think it’s powerful that you’ve been able to notice the difference between the sensations you’re having and you experience of real anxiety symptoms.  Bravo!

 

I don’t know what that back-of-the-head feeling could be but maybe brain zaps?  Mine felt more like bubbles in water or muscle twitches on the side and front of my head.  I’ve read that they’re hard to describe and different for many people. 

 

Fish oil and magnesium lotion have helped me the most with any jittery, nervous feelings.  That lasted for about 8 days for me and now I’m feeling mostly back to normal.  I hope you get some relief soon. 

 

A friend has recommended CBD but I’m not sold on it and I don’t want to add any more variables at this point. 

 

Time in the sun can never hurt, IMO.  

[jozeff]

Hi auntilu, thanks for your message.

 

It's not like brainzaps I've had those in the past. It's more like a nervous feeling in my neck and between the eyes. It is extremely hard to describe, even my wife doesn't know what I mean when I explained it to her. It is very vague but unpleasant. That's why it's so scary because I don't know what it is and how to treat it. It's probably best to just take it as it comes. 

 

How about the b12, any thoughts?

 

Today was a wonderful day, we did some rebuilding at our attack and lifted some heavy stuff downstairs. An old box i found with memories of my late dead made me cry... Can't cry easily on AD!

Had fun with my wife and six y old boy so that was great.

 

Now I'm a bit afraid the good old wave is coming knock on my door.

 

We'll see. 

 

You talk about 8 days aunti Do.  you mean after you stabilized or when you quit all your meds?

 

Have a nice day and thanks!!

 

Jozeff

 

 

[AuntiLu]

8 days of symptoms for me, once they started which was somewhere 3-4 weeks after I changed my dosage.  

 

I left some feedback about b12 back on my thread in the introduction forum.  

 

Feel better!

[jozeff]

Hi all,

 

Good weekend it was. My small updose from 16.5 mg citalopram to 18 mg seems to have killed some WD symptoms during my taper.

 

Tried some cbd oil and must say I felt pretty calm, not much nerves.

 

Today is a bit strange. I feel like I am not myself. Went to work by car, played with my son, talked to my wife but it was as if I wasn't actually there. Like an autopilot that drives me or something. Like a wall between me and the rest of the word. It frightened me because it felt horrible. Couldn't laugh or be sad, or angry or whatever...just be. I couldn't even think of one reason why I exist. Couldn't relate to myself. Just waiting for the day to pass and hoping not to be sad or panick

English is not my native language so it's a bit hard to describe exactly how I felt....

 

Does anyone recognize these strange, nasty feelings?

Thanks 

 

Jozeff

 

[Martina23]

Maybe the updose caused by you derealization. Maybe you should go down a bit with the dose (just my opinion) Depersonalization is very uncomfortable. 

[jozeff]

You are fast!

 

Well that could very well be true. I have been on 18 mg for 6 days now. I surely felt better 4 days after updose, no doubt. I'm a bit scared to go down again so soon. What do you suggest?

 

 

It seems as if there is always A symptom. Anxiety, fatigue, depersonalization, depression, nausea...

But not at the same time. How does that work???

 

 

[Martina23]

4 minutes ago, jozeff said:

You are fast!

 

Well that could very well be true. I have been on 18 mg for 6 days now. I surely felt better 4 days after updose, no doubt. I'm a bit scared to go down again so soon. What do you suggest?

 

 

It seems as if there is always A symptom. Anxiety, fatigue, depersonalization, depression, nausea...

But not at the same time. How does that work???

 

 

For me - I would go down I have to confess. But wenn you want to stay steady and look at the situation for some time how it develops, you can also do that. For me it was "kind of too much good" and it is possible that your body feels in overdrive. You can also stay on this dose you are now and check if it goes away. If it is too terrible (the depersonalization) you can always go down and it will disappear. You can also ask for opinion Altostrata  if she has the same or other opinion.

[jozeff]

Thanks! Appreciate it.

 

Altostrata or brass monkey advised me not to updose in the first place....

 

It was Gridley I guess

 

Could this 10 % temporary updose cause these effects. I was on 16.5 mg for 5 weeks and upped to 18 six day ago.

Edited August 20, 2018 by jozeff

[Martina23]

3 minutes ago, jozeff said:

Thanks! Appreciate it.

 

Altostrata or brass monkey advised me not to updose in the first place....

 

Could this 10 % temporary updose cause these effects. I was on 16.5 mg for 5 weeks and upped to 18 six day ago.

It is very probable it was the updose. I think your body got used to 16,5 it is oversensitive, it got adapted on 16,5 and after five weeks you got up and all the changes your body made caused that it went to overdrive, more of the drug caused more anxiety and it shows itself with depersonalization 

[jozeff]

Ok but I didn't feel like I'd adapted to the 16,5 mg dose at all. That's why I upped my dose to 18 mg  almost wanted to take 20 mg yesterday just to be on the safe side .... addictive thoughts..,..

You know, I chose 18 mg because thats where I would have been if I'd followed brass monkeys taper. Does that make sense?

 

Thanks a lot

[Martina23]

28 minutes ago, jozeff said:

Ok but I didn't feel like I'd adapted to the 16,5 mg dose at all. That's why I upped my dose to 18 mg  almost wanted to take 20 mg yesterday just to be on the safe side .... addictive thoughts..,..

You know, I chose 18 mg because thats where I would have been if I'd followed brass monkeys taper. Does that make sense?

 

Thanks a lot

Jozeff, what should I say. Maybe you didnt feel it but your body has adapted itself on 16,5 mg and now it is in overdrive. You have to negotiate with your own body, it has a way how it said it to you (depersonalization)

[TikkiTikki]

Hi Jozef,

 

Was just scanning your thread and wanted to say hi. I don't know much about whether you should adjust your dose again; I've only updosed once for 2 days and then dropped back because it didn't seem to make much difference either way. I don't believe I am as sensitive to dose reduction as many people on this forum.

 

But I can sure empathise with the struggle of what to do, what to do when you feel so awful!  Hang in there. Glad you found us.

 

Hugs, Tikki

 

 

 

[Songbird]

Jozeff, I think you were fine to try a small updose and it seems that it has helped to some degree.  I would not keep on changing the dose, that tends to cause confusion and further instability.  It sounds like you are experiencing derealization/depersonalization (in particular see Altostrata's post on page 1).  This is a common symptom and may ease off over time.

 

When we have withdrawal symptoms, the temptation is to think that if we just find the right dose it will magically fix everything.  This can lead to a habit of changing dose every time we experience a symptom in an effort to make it go away.  With all these changes, the system never gets a chance to stabilise. 

 

Instead, we need to learn to accept that we are going to have some symptoms and find non-med ways to cope with them. 

See: Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Be aware that the "10% drop every 4 weeks" plan is only a general guideline and sometimes it's better to do smaller drops and/or wait longer.  Time to stabilise can vary hugely.  Sometimes I've stabilised in 4 weeks, but a few times I've had to hold for several months.  The key is to listen to your body.  If you don't feel stable, then it's usually best to hold at the same dose for longer.  

[jozeff]

 

•  

 

Well it's 1:week since I updosed to 18 mg. My anxiety is better but my derealization is not good and well-being is also a little less. Feel very numb and detached. Should I go back to 16.5 mg where I have been on for 5 weeks or should I stay on 18 like last week. I want to go down off course but my well being is most important right now. Feel a bit strange and that is not a pleasant feeling. Also a bit nauseas today....

Don't want to go down in dose to realise I should have stayed at 18 mg.. don't want to loose pressuse weeks you know.

Thanks a lot!!

 

[Happy2Heal]

hi  Jozeff

 

as we discussed in messages,  my feeling is to make as few changes as possible. I personally would stay where you are, but if you feel you must go back up, I'd do it now and not wait any longer. and me, personally, I would only go up to maybe 17 

but that's me, others will have their own thoughts on this

 

I can see from your signature you've made a lot of up and down dosing changes so whatever you decide (and only you can make this decision) I strongly urge you to stick to that dose regardless of how you feel.

 

you've kind of bounced things around a bit and there's no way to know if going back up is going to help. No one can tell you that. It may possibly make you feel worse.

 

are there things you can do to help you deal with the symptoms you're having now?

 

please take a few minutes to read the success stories, you will see that many of us were able to cope with some pretty disturbing symptoms without messing with our dose and we got thru it ok. No it's not pleasant, but from where I am now, with that good ol 20/20 hindsight,  just learning to cope with the symptoms instead of trying to tweak drug dosages is a much better and safer approach

 

nothing bad can come from you/us learning ways to cope with uncomfortable feelings and symptoms. 😉

 

 

 

[jozeff]

Wow, thanks for your help. Really helps if someone is thinking along. My wife is sometimes a bit overwhelmed by my symptoms,  calculations and all that stuff  poor girl....

 

No, I started tapering in April 2018 and went to 16.5 from 24 mg in 85 days. Stayed on 16.5 mg for 5 weeks but jumped to 18 mg last week to counteract WD. I've been on 18 mg for a week now.

 

Thinking about maybe going back to 16.5 now because I felt pretty derealized today and yesterday. My anxiety is less however. The question is, should I stabilize on 18 mg or go back to 16.5 mg and stabilize on that. Is my brain adapting itself to 18 mg now or is 1 week too short and can I safely go back to 16.5 mg now

 

I know I'm asking the unanswerable perhaps. Just looking for some confirmation you know.

 

It is true that I jumped around with my dose quite a bit. I didn't know much about all this back then unfortunately.

 

Thanks a lot!!

Jozeff

 

[Happy2Heal]

er ok math/numbers are not my favorite thing 

 

Let's see if I've got this right now:

you went from DOWN 25mgs to 16.5 mgs and that took 85days

 

that *seems* too fast but I don't have a dosage calculator handy- what rate of taper was that?

 

you were at 16.5 for 5 weeks but got impatient to feel better,  so you went back to UP to 18mgs- is that right?

 

now after UPdosing, you are still not feeling the way you'd like and you want to go back DOWN to where you were a week ago- 

correct?

 

 

that would mean this is the 3rd CHANGE  in your dose in 6 weeks, is that correct?

 

Can you see why I am suggesting that you don't do anything at all but rather try to find NON DRUG coping methods?

 

I know, believe me I KNOW how hard it is when you feel poorly, to want to tweak your dose and Hope and Pray that does the trick but it's just not a good idea

 

It's much better to spend your time and energy on figuring out how to handle how you feel now.

 

what non drug coping methods have you tried?

 

you are right,  it's not really a question I can answer.  Boy I wish I had a magic wand and a crystal ball and could tell you if it will help or not, I really do! heck I might play the lottery if I had me one of those, hahaha

 

you have to decide,  and you have to deal with the consequences

 

I'm giving you my input based only on  my own experiences and what I've read of other's experiences and to me, it's not worth the risk to make another change in your dose so soon.

 

I wish I could tell you what to do, I wish I could say, go  ahead back DOWN again and you'll be fine but I don't know that, and no one else here knows that either

 

what we DO know is that making up and down changes is not a good thing to do. 

try to avoid it as much as possible.

 

but beyond that, no one can tell you if you "should" or "shouldn't'

 

 

 

[Gridley]

It takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to full state in the blood and a few days longer for it to register in the brain.  So your brain has adapted to some degree to the 18mg dose.

Since you have made so many dose changes, I wouldn't make another and think you should stabilize on 18mg.  You should stay there for several months--perhaps six.  You are going to have different symptoms all the time and shouldn't keep changing your dose to try to "fix" them when they pop up.

 

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

 

[RusTW]

 I agree also I think you should hold at your dose for now it's not worth getting sick over.

[jozeff]

Ok guys thank you!

 

H2h you are correct in your statements. I did the 0.1 mg/day taper I read domewhere which seemed pretty slow to me. It is of course increasing in speed when approaching lower dose. So my last mg tapering traject for instace was from 17.5 to 16.5 in ten days. That's about 18 % per month. I didn't build in stabilizing weeks because I didn't know they were recommended. I'm glad I did some sort of taper because the doctors always advise you to decrease by 50% each dose. I did that once on effexor without too many problems but wouldn't do that again.

 

Since it would be the second time I changed dose in eight days I will stay at my 18 mg and see what happens. I'll stabilize for a few months ok?

 

Thank you guys so much!

 

Jozeff

[jozeff]

To add:

 

Things were not to well today. Very zombie like at work. Sometimes felt like crying but couldn't. I took a little dive in my son's pool which always keeps me calm. I do a 14 hour per day not eating diet which helped me with losing some weight. I'm 90 kg and 1.89 meter. 

 

Yesterday I picked up this diet after my holiday. Perhaps low blood sugar isn't helping eather with my citalopram adventure. Causes mood swings perhaps.

 

Did you have any trouble with food/,diet while trying to taper??

 

Tnx!