jozeff: trying to come off of citalopram - a little help would be great

[jonnypeters1234567]

2 hours ago, jozeff said:

Ok guys thank you!

 

H2h you are correct in your statements. I did the 0.1 mg/day taper I read domewhere which seemed pretty slow to me. It is of course increasing in speed when approaching lower dose. So my last mg tapering traject for instace was from 17.5 to 16.5 in ten days. That's about 18 % per month. I didn't build in stabilizing weeks because I didn't know they were recommended. I'm glad I did some sort of taper because the doctors always advise you to decrease by 50% each dose. I did that once on effexor without too many problems but wouldn't do that again.

 

Since it would be the second time I changed dose in eight days I will stay at my 18 mg and see what happens. I'll stabilize for a few months ok?

 

Thank you guys so much!

 

Jozeff

Stay at the dose untill you are stable. Then take it seriously slow. I would take a couple of years, atleast, to come off if i could do it again

[jozeff]

I take 10 mg in the morning and 8 mg after work. I feel worried after waking up and very foggy/tired, then awefull snd derealized between 10.00 and 15:00 and pretty good after 20:00 (8 o'clock) in the evening. Very calm and relaxed until I go to sleep at about 11 in the evening.

 

Next morning blah again. Like I'm 300 pounds and have to get moving. Have a coffee on empty stomach. Get in my car drive for 45 minutes thinking and worrying and feeling very tired and lethargic. Then day moves on as mentioned above. In the weekend it's pretty much the same. 

 

In the evening I feel surprisingly calm and energetic. Why is that? Should I try taking meds on a different time? I divided it in 2 parts to prevent nausea.

 

Thanks!

 

Jozeff

[RusTW]

Jozeff most of us feel better at night. I drink a limited amount of coffee in the morning also but I do notice it does app me up and cause more anxiety the way I counteract that is I drink two bottles of water with about a quarter cup of coffee I don't drink a full cup. Be careful drinking it on an empty stomach and also try to take your meds with water not coffee if you're taking it with the coffee. Do you get anxiety and how is your anxiety what do you feel like

[Songbird]

15 hours ago, jozeff said:

I do a 14 hour per day not eating diet which helped me with losing some weight. I'm 90 kg and 1.89 meter. 

 

Yesterday I picked up this diet after my holiday. Perhaps low blood sugar isn't helping eather with my citalopram adventure. Causes mood swings perhaps.

 

A "not eating" diet sounds like a terrible idea.  Eating little and often combining carbs and protein would be better for keeping your blood sugar stable.

[jozeff]

Well I eat in a window of 10 hours and then 14 hours of not eating which isn't too awful. It's great to loose some pounds.

[Happy2Heal]

6 hours ago, jozeff said:

Well I eat in a window of 10 hours and then 14 hours of not eating which isn't too awful. It's great to loose some pounds.

ah intermittent fasting, I think it's called??
I've been meaning to try this

 

supposed to be a very good idea to stop eating and let your body DIGEST for awhile. I've been reading a lot about this lately.

 

now that I"m in a better place, off all the meds, I want to try a 3 day fast- but I haven't made it past 20 hrs yet LOL

 

maybe I should just stick to the 14hr one, even that can be hard for me sometimes LOL

 

how are you feeling Jozeff?

hope your symptoms are easing up

 

 

 

[jozeff]

Hi h2h,

 

Yesterday was pretty good. Very busy at work, lots of traffic when driving home but I handled it all pretty well. No racing thoughts.

 

I took a tiny amount of b12, just a small bit of a 2 mg capsule.

 

Only the mornings are bad

 Unbelievably tired when I wake up, slightly nauseaus and a bit worried.

 

I drink coffee and start the day. I eat at 1200 in the afternoon. Yes it's called intermittent  fasting. It is easy. Just make sure not to eat a lot after 14 or 16 hours. Just a banana and 1 hour later some lunch. McDonald's after 16 hours because your blood sugar will explode.

And NO light drinks during the fasting, just water or tea! They will mess with you insulin and make you feel bad.

 

How come I feel so bad in the morning and pretty damn good in the evenings. It can't be all psychological can it?

 

Cheers!

 

Jozeff

[Happy2Heal]

4 hours ago, jozeff said:

How come I feel so bad in the morning and pretty damn good in the evenings. It can't be all psychological can it?

 

 

 

this is a VERY common pattern for WD/recovery.

 

it's your brain recovering. I'm not sure if anyone knows why mornings are the hardest and things get better over the course of the day.

 

 

it's a good sign that your brain is doing what it needs to do. It doesn't make it feel any better, but at least you know you're healing.

 

 

[jozeff]

My psychiatrist says he thinks I'm depressed and I feel better at night because the day is over and I don't have to think about anything anymore. In the morning I'm worried and feel depressed.

 

I think truly it's more due to brainchemistry that changes over the day and night. I feel much calmer and more relaxed in the evening. Could this be stresshormones, melatonine or other brain chemistry? It not all psychological, I don't believe that.

 

Sometimes I'm doing a lot of destracting stuff in the morning and talk to people and be ok

 But....there is still that feeling of not being ok. When I walk at night with my dog everything seems so much more in Peace you know what I mean?

 

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

[Martina23]

Hello Jozeff, I have heard that if you feel already better in the evening it is already second stage of withdrawal. There was an article about that on benzobuddies. That there are 4 stages of withdrawal:

1. acute - hell all the time

2. better - some time for example evenings already better

3. the symptoms are already in the background

4. symptoms are more or less healed

 

Maybe I will find the link.

 

Here is the link:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=156111.0

[jozeff]

Ok thank a lot!!!!

 

I'll check that out. I actually didn't know benzos were so hard to taper. I mean do they alter the brain and therefore you have to come off of them slowly. Or is it just the psychological dependency?

 

I rarely take 10 mg oxazepam. Don't want to be dependable on that stuff eather!

 

Since 4 days I've tried cbd oil. I felt pretty calm but don't know if it's the oil. Too soon to tell. Couldn't find much about adverse effects with citalopram though. Any thoughts on that??

 

 

Cheers 

[Songbird]

11 hours ago, jozeff said:

My psychiatrist says he thinks I'm depressed and I feel better at night because the day is over and I don't have to think about anything anymore. In the morning I'm worried and feel depressed.

 

I think truly it's more due to brainchemistry that changes over the day and night. I feel much calmer and more relaxed in the evening. Could this be stresshormones, melatonine or other brain chemistry? It not all psychological, I don't believe that.

 

It's very common to feel horrible in the mornings and better in the evenings.  I suspect it is to do with our circadian rhythms - hormones and neurotransmitters and so on change throughout the day and night.  For example cortisol level increases in the early morning and decreases in the late afternoon.

 

8 hours ago, jozeff said:

I'll check that out. I actually didn't know benzos were so hard to taper. I mean do they alter the brain and therefore you have to come off of them slowly. Or is it just the psychological dependency?

 

Both SSRIs and benzos cause physical dependency, as they alter the balance of the nervous system.

 

[jozeff]

Ok thanks, we will have to deal with it then. Yesterday after work I was so tired. Not normal tired but like my head was empty, a little nausea and all I could do was sit in the sofa. Strangely enough this feeling went away when I wanted to go to bed. 

 

I'm just scared to get out of bed every day because I cannot trust my own body. I don't know at all how I'm gonna feel the next hour. That is the most evil part in my life at the moment.

 

Hope you all are doing very well!!

 

 

Jozeff

 

[jozeff]

Hi all!

 

Went to mother for a sleepover with my six year old son. I was having a hard time with myself. Anxious and nauseaus. After some dinner there I suddenly felt calm and relaxed. Had a little toouch ice cream and chips and went to bed at 1 o'clock in the morning. 

 

This morning, nausea, anxiety which went away but unbelievably tired all day. Half an hour ago my nervous feeling just creeped back on me. Nervous feeling in my stomach, neck and shoulders.

 

I'm on 18 mg citalopram since 2 weeks now. Went from 16.5 to 18 to counteract WD. Expected some stability but that seems to be a problem.

 

Mid 2017 - April 2018 - 25 mg citalopram

 

Tapered to 16.5 mg until beginning of July 2018 (0.1 mg/day taper)

 

16.5 mg - beginning of July 2018 - 11th august 2018

 

18 mg - august 11th - now ( to tackle my WD a bit)

 

I find it hard to believe that I'm having so many issues after staying 7 weeks at the same (more or less) dose.

Is this all WD?  My  psychologist doesn't believe it is to be honest. He says there's a big chance that it's my original problems popping up again. 

 

Also, because of WD symptoms you get anxious and depressed because your afraid they never go away....

. vicious circle is born....

 

I Know 7 weeks isn't a lot but I did a not to awfully fast taper this year and need some evidence it is all WD symptoms.

 

Thanks for your thoughts people. I need some wise response right now😉😉 I feel a lot of comfort when visiting this website! It's an awesome source of everything for me.

 

Jozeff

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Martina23]

Jozeff, when I heard what your psychologist said it made me angry. These people  make you problems with their medications and then say this is your underling illness. What a joke. I think, sure some part can be withdrawal symptoms and some part can be simply side effects of the drug.

[jozeff]

Hi Martina, thanks for your reply!

 

Well, it's not the psychologist who gave me the pills. My doctor did after I said that I needed some meds for my depression. Psychologists stay far away from medication. They try to avoid the subject as hard as they can. 

The gp's are evil because they advise you to taper in 1 month and give you some other stuff when you get symptoms.

I never had much trouble coming off of effexor in the past but citalopram is another story. My doctor told me effexor would be harder because of its longer half life...... Which doesn't seem to be true as far as I know. Studying a lot of stories and articles lately.

 

I'm just wondering if my symptoms are caused by WD and if that is likely concerning my dose in the last few months. I'm really looking for some relief because I feel sad a lot of the time and I laugh very little lately.

 

Cheers jozeff

[Gridley]

Psych doctors don't believe in withdrawal and will invariably say it is the "return of the underlying condition" or some such.

 

You have made a lot of changes in dosage.  Seven weeks is a very short time.  You will need longer to stabilize, probably months, perhaps six months.  You need to be patient.

[jozeff]

Ok Gridley,

 

I'll have to listen to your wisdom then😁

You know, people (and myself included) are looking for relief and answers. I just hope that someone gives the golden advise which solves all my troubles in a second. I know 7 weeks is short. I'm somewhat desperate.

 

Thanks and have a nice day!

 

Jozeff

[jozeff]

Hi all,

 

It have been 2 days I survived but not too bad or good either. Trying to keep things calm and just do my job the best I can. Mornings are ok-ish, around noon I feel awful until about 2:30 when I gain a bit more energy and finish the day at work around 5. Getting home is a bit hard because I want to be here for my family, sometimes get a little panicky after dinner because I had a vomit anxiety/fobia the last year.

 

But......big but.....

Today my wife called me at work to say she's pregnant!! 

We have a six year old boy and wee have a great bond, the three of us.

 

This news sent me right into almost panick attack and hot flashes in my head and neck. It's been 5 hours and i still feel some panick and distress.

 

We always said we just wanted 1 kid. My libido was non existing when on higher dose citalopram. Since my taper I was able to have sex successfully,,😉😉 since many many months. My lovely wife doesn't get pregnant easily do we had some, great unsafe sex....

I don't know if I should be happy or not. I don't feel much joy anyways since being on citalopram. My wife changed drastically and says this is fate and probably should see it as an opportunity in our lives. Seeing my situation as it is the last thing I need is a little kid waking me in in the night. But, maybe it is an opportunity I don't know. We don't have to decide right now but we'll have to cross that bridge pretty soon. 

My nervous system is very sensitive yesterday I almost vomited and cried after a colleague was pissed about something I said. The news of my pregnant wife send me in a small shock so to speak....

 

You guys can't tell me what to do but perhaps some of you have experience with this stuff and can talk me through this very fresh news;)

I don't have much space in my head to react to others today but I will be back soon and start reading your daily experiences!

 

Have I nice day!

 

A nervous daddy

 

Jozeff

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Martina23]

Jozeff, I think you should be happy about the baby! I think it is great. Every new life is a blessing.

 

At least someone will take care of you when you are in pension 🙂

[jozeff]

Hi Martina,

 

Thank you for your kind words! Appreciate it. My wife and I laughed really hard with your pension joke....

 

Well, hearing my wife is pregnant is some pretty big news.

 

I began panicking right away yesterday. I've had this derealized feeling for 24 hr now. I'm also feeling quite warm in my neck and head. Could this be WD symptoms from my current taper. I have been on same dose for 8 weeks now. I am Very affraid this reaction in my head and body is just me and has nothing to do with my citalopram use. I didn't CT the med just started a taper in april2018.

 

I still think me tapering from 25 to 16.5 mg in 85 days and now 8 weeks on 16.5 mg citalopram should definitely NOT have such a major effect on my mood and body!!

Sometimes I think: this cannot be happening to me! How do all those other people deal with all this.

 

I feel all moods in 1 day. Angry, frustrated, sad, depressed, happy, worried, suicidal ideation, nauseaus ......all in 1 single day. Could this all be WD? No one would believe me.

 

I was never a very stable person but this is breaking me from inside. Every day seems like such a struggle.

 

Have a good day you all!!

 

Jozeff

 

[Martina23]

I think the mood changes within one day is definitely either withdrawal or side effect of the drug you are still taking. Jozeff, you have to wait until you taper off the whole drug. Then you see how your CNS looks like. Each drug dose even small one still changes your brain chemistry therefore you can not now really see what is your brain, what is withdrawal and what is drug.

[jozeff]

Hi, 

 

Yes the mood change is probably medication. You know the citalopram worked fabulously in the beginning. I had a great year with little ups and downs. After jumping from 25 to 20 to 15  I crashed and after updosing to 25 mg again after few months the stuff didn't seem to work as good as before. Because of that I started tapering, but a bit too fast, not extremely fast. Since trying to stabilize at 16.5 mg I'm a complete mess half of the days. 

 

How long does this stabilizing period take?? That's the one million dollar question.....

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

[Gridley]

Please update your signature to reflect the August 11 updose to 18mg Citalopram.

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

[jozeff]

Thank you Gridley, did that.

 

This was a very strange week. Tuesday we found out that my wife is pregnant. We were happy and worried at the same time. Now a few days later we are happy and kind of looking forward to it. We have to get used to the idea of having 2 kids 😘. We have a six year old son and we are very happy the three of us. Make that 4 in a few months!!

 

My problem this week however is pretty severe derealization. I don't know exactly how to describe it but it feels like a strange feeling creeping up my neck into my head. Then I get very tired and little sad and it looks as if the world is going on but I am not. As if I'm not really there. This is the worst in the afternoon. When I wake up it's more like anxiety and then I go to work and things start to get normal. but then somewhere in the afternoon I get this depersonalization.

 

This feeling has been with me for 3 days off or 4 and doesn't seem to go away. I have been on 18 MG citalopram for 17 days. I updosed from 16.5 mg (I was on for 5 weeks during tapering) because of my symptoms.

 

Could this depersonalization be caused by my very small updose 17 days ago?? Or is it WD from my higher dose before??

 

I find this hard to believe.

 

I also want to be filled with joy because we're gonna have a baby but all I feel is worrying, anxiety, my brain just feels off, I don't know..

 

I also have very tired muscles and tight shoulders.

 

Some advice would be very welcome guys. 

 

Hope you're all doing well!!

 

Jozeff

 

[Gridley]

jozeff,

 

Congratulations on your baby!

 

There's no way to know for sure, but very likely the derealization is a WD symptom from your earlier tapering.  Derealization is a common WD symptom.  WD symptoms can come unpredictably and inexplicably and with delayed onset.  

 

Tight tired muscles are a common WD symptom.

[jozeff]

Thank you Gridley!

 

Derealization is pretty awful. Feels like my nervous system is really struggling. 

 

This week I had an argument with a colleague and I felt very defeated afterwards and I was almost vomiting from the event. He accused of some stuff I didn't do. Normally I would not react like this. The rest of the day I really felt off. Next day my wife called me at work to say she's pregnant. I had a panicky feeling over this. Rest of the week I was tired and derealized.

 

Could it be that these things have a major effect on my nervous system a couple of days? Normally it would take me an hour to get over these kinds of things.

 

Thanks a lot!

 

Jozeff

[jonnypeters1234567]

On 8/29/2018 at 6:23 PM, jozeff said:

Hi Martina,

 

Thank you for your kind words! Appreciate it. My wife and I laughed really hard with your pension joke....

 

Well, hearing my wife is pregnant is some pretty big news.

 

I began panicking right away yesterday. I've had this derealized feeling for 24 hr now. I'm also feeling quite warm in my neck and head. Could this be WD symptoms from my current taper. I have been on same dose for 8 weeks now. I am Very affraid this reaction in my head and body is just me and has nothing to do with my citalopram use. I didn't CT the med just started a taper in april2018.

 

I still think me tapering from 25 to 16.5 mg in 85 days and now 8 weeks on 16.5 mg citalopram should definitely NOT have such a major effect on my mood and body!!

Sometimes I think: this cannot be happening to me! How do all those other people deal with all this.

 

I feel all moods in 1 day. Angry, frustrated, sad, depressed, happy, worried, suicidal ideation, nauseaus ......all in 1 single day. Could this all be WD? No one would believe me.

 

I was never a very stable person but this is breaking me from inside. Every day seems like such a struggle.

 

Have a good day you all!!

 

Jozeff

 

 

Thats been life for the last 14 months

[jonnypeters1234567]

Seriously advise you take years to taper off. I didnt really think protracted withdrawal really existed, it really does and comes back stronger and stronger. If i could do it again id do 3mg a year over 5 years. Honestly it is very difficult. Do you have a need to come off quick?

[jozeff]

Hi jonny, thanks.

 

No I don't have to get of quickly. I went from 25 to 16.5 mg in 85 days and thought that was very gently.... Unfortunately I crashed somewhat at 16.5 and after 5 weeks at that dose I upped a bit to 18 mg.

 

I really really didn't expect my body would feel so strange in this tapering. I expected to be completely stable after 5 or 6 weeks at that last dose. Things are getting worse or stay the same. No stabilizing for me right now!

 

Gridley told me to wait a couple of months before considering a taper again. I guess my small updose made things a little worse for me. I had been tapering since April and suddenly added1.5 mg citalopram to counteract WD. This helped after few days but after that symptoms got worse.

 

I'll have to wait. 5 years tapering seems like a lot after two years of meds but I might have to listen to your advise.

 

Could a two year taper be ok?

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[jonnypeters1234567]

Seriously it takes a long time. Id definately do 5 years. It seems to me that serotonin receptors regrow every 6 months, everyone seems to get a strong wave every 6 months and takes many years to fully heal. If you can cover as many as those 6 month waves with some citalopram in your system itll make life alot easier. 

 

Thats just my opinion, i dont want to see you in my position with a wife and kids, as it really isnt pretty. I am non functional

[Kostas]

3 minutes ago, jozeff said:

Hi jonny, thanks.

 

No I don't have to get of quickly. I went from 25 to 16.5 mg in 85 days and thought that was very gently.... Unfortunately I crashed somewhat at 16.5 and after 5 weeks at that dose I upped a bit to 18 mg.

 

I really really didn't expect my body would feel so strange in this tapering. I expected to be completely stable after 5 or 6 weeks at that last dose. Things are getting worse or stay the same. No stabilizing for me right now!

 

Gridley told me to wait a couple of months before considering a taper again. I guess my small updose made things a little worse for me. I had been tapering since April and suddenly added1.5 mg citalopram to counteract WD. This helped after few days but after that symptoms got worse.

 

I'll have to wait. 5 years tapering seems like a lot after two years of meds but I might have to listen to your advise.

 

Could a two year taper be ok?

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

Hi, 

I tapered of 20 mg citalopram over 7 years, being on it on/off for 11 years. 

However no problems during tapering, and 4 years after. 

Mild withdrawal symptoms after 4 years which terrified me, but gradually went away after one year. 

Now I am off the drug for 6 years and 90% functional. 

[jozeff]

Yes slow is key here.

 

There are so many websites that advise to taper the psych meds in a 4-6 week period. After that a few weeks of withdrawal might occur. If you start having symptoms after more than a month.... original problem coming back and you should consider going back to the full dose again.

 

Just read this info on a mental health rehab clinic site.

 

Why is all that info so incorrect?

 

Is everything linked to big pharma money?

 

Jozeff

[Happy2Heal]

1 hour ago, jozeff said:

Is everything linked to big pharma money?

 

Jozeff

 

petty much, yes

 

if your job depends on you not being aware of serious issues with a product you are making, selling or even prescribing, you are not going to be willing to see those issues

 

the word is getting out, but many of the credible sources of information are often silenced by big money interests

 

it's like this in every industry, it's just so much more devastating when lives are at stake

 

 

you will heal Jozeff. everything you're going thru is normal for WD although it may feel very strange to you

 

if you have time to, read thru some of the threads here, esp for others going off the same med you are- you will see, we all pretty much had these symptoms and more

 

it's your brain doing the work to get back to your pre-medicated state

 

it's going to take time, a lot longer than most of us ever imagined 😕

 

[jozeff]

IT,hank

 you h2h and Jonny,

 

I worked for a large pharmaceutical company in the lab. I also worked for the company that produced remeron.  I'm a chemist so I had nothing to do at all with financial stuff thank God. Only quality testing of source chemicals. I know companies find their products absolutely awesome. They don't even speak about side effects. I never ever heard something about clinical studies, side effects etc. People trying to come off of meds was a forbidden area I guess. That was never talked about in all their presentations. No way!

 

Companies hate negative attention that's for sure. I discovered some YouTube videos about WD symptoms that were strangely removed somehow......

 

Well h2h, I read a lot of citalopram stories here. Especially the CT ones are heart breaking. It's absolutely devastating to hear what some doctors have done. Some people decide to CT by themselves because they feel so good. I can't even imagine how much trouble that would cause. I did a bit of a fast taper and that is haunting me all day for weeks.

 

It's something different every time. I woke up half an hour ago feeling quite good. Now I'm getting to feel sad again and anxious. It just pops in my head. With that come negative thoughts.

 

Without meds these thoughts probably wouldn't have occurred because I wouldn't feel sad in the first place.

 

That's why it's so difficult. You tend to believe it's just who I am.... instead of thinking it's WD and it will probably pass. It is so real in our heads that we just don't see it. It will always be like this....that's the evil thought...

 

Happy healing you all!!!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

[Happy2Heal]

believe me, it's not YOU it is just WD and  it WILL end

 

 

your best bet, as hard as it is to do, is to make as few changes as possible

 

you didn't just come down too quickly, you also went up and down in your dose (something I also did)
I truly believe if I'd stayed more stable, I would never have had the severe issues that I did

I went up and down a LOT more than you  did, so hopefully you'll heal faster than me because of that.

 

you are doing really well, working while going thru WD is very challenging. you've got the added excitement and stress of a new baby on the way.

YOu will likely need to concentrate very much on self care and getting enough rest and gentle exercise. Eating well, avoiding caffeine and other stimulants, avoiding alcohol etc

 

but you are going to do fine. The thoughts and feelings are just that- they can't hurt you, although it may seem that way at time

and all feelings are temporary, they will change. 

 

I had to put notes on my fridge during the worst of WD recovery that said "thoughts can't hurt me"

and "just because I think it, does not make it true" to remind me to challenge negative thoughts

 

I hope you have a relaxing weekend!