jozeff: trying to come off of citalopram - a little help would be great

[Altostrata]

Any of those factors could be in play.

 

As people get down to very low doses of a drug, it could be the drug is metabolized faster. Dividing doses can maintain a more even bloodstream level.

 

Could be that ingredients in the diet Cokes were inhibiting metabolism of citalopram, reducing diet Cokes might reduce this inhibition.

 

Or, you could just be feeling poorly from the flu and worrying about your son.

[Carmie]

Hi Jozeff, 

 

Just wanted to say I hope you and your son are over the flu soon. 💚

[India]

Hi Jozeff, I thought i’d check. After 8 months i’m understanding this process to be an emotional pinball machine. So complex. In itself it exhausting to deal with so many symptoms on top of CNS destabilisation. You have a lot of responsibility too. You are doing well with all these variables. I am barely functioning  and I have no dependents . Today I started to say to myself, “I have excellent coping skills”, “The summer will help me healing”, “I am getting stronger”. I don’t feel it but I hope acting as if may have some effect . A perspective shift. It’s a daily effort to challenge the terrors, the difficulties. The hamster wheel of symptoms . Just wanted to extend some encouragement. 

[jozeff]

Hi India, thanks a lot!

 

I answered in your topic.

 

Take care and sending hugs!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[jozeff]

Hi guys,

 

I wanted to share my experience with Saffron with you.

I'm on 18 mg citalopram daily.

 

 

Let me begin saying that I tried a lot of herbs and stuff to ease my depression (fish oil, magnesium, potassium, lithium, kale, flaxseed, nutritional yeast, vitamine B12, Niacin, 5htp, Ashwagandha, st johns wort, curcumin and some stuff  I cannot remember.

 

I have never noticed any real improvements.

 

Douglas Bloch talked about saffron as a possible cure for depression on Youtube and although I heard of this stuff i never looked it up. 

 

I took 15 mg of it and have been doing this the last 7 days and I must say that my depressed feelings have decreased severely. I'm still very tired sometimes, little anxious, muscle aches and a lot of other symptoms but the extreme low mood has been gone for at least 5 or 6 days now.

 

This might be placebo, this might be a coincident, this might be temporarily but I just wanted to share this experience.

 

Saffron is a spice and it is quite expensive. It costs about 1.5 euro (or 1.5 dollar or so) for 50 mg making it 30.000 dollar per Kg!!!

But, I took only 15 mg per day and that is about the maximum recommended dose (15 mg twice a day...) so taking a lot more wouldnt make sense anyway.

 

That is about 50 cents per day so that is absolutely nothing if this stuff works. It is worth a try isnt it?

 

I will let you know how this evolves.  Maybe you can benefit from this in the future. I want to help my fellow sufferers so stay tuned!

 

 

cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

[PerAsperaAdAstra]

Hi Jozeff! I've heard the same thing about Saffron. Good to have some anecdotal experience from people in the same boat.

 

I've heard some promising stories about Lavender oil for anxiety and depression too. For some people it seemed to help although not for everyone. (and it gave several people a typical flower burp :P)

FYI! 

[India]

Jozeff , have you read any papers or threads here that hypothesise why we might be taking such a long time to stabilise? And also why a section of us are so sensitised? It seems like the sort of thing you might have read. It would help to get some hypothesised context. I too indentify with the emotional rollercoaster you describe.

[jozeff]

Yes, I've been doing some extensive reading and research. Rebuilding Neuro connection, receptor activity, WD symptoms and why.....I've read it all. But, there's a lot to learn still.

 

That's why I have been trying so many supplements. Out of despair I tried many things to search for my holy Grail. 

 

Accidentally I found this saffron information and it looks promising right now.

 

Disclaimer: although I am a chemist I have very little knowledge about biochemistry/brain/metabolism. I know a lot more about certain analytical chemistry techniques. I do not encourage people to take any supplements. The saffron experiment is just my own experience.

 

It's not always useful to learn a lot about metabolism because we are all different and we cannot predict how these/meds will affect us unfortunately.

 

I'll dive into the lavender oil story!

 

 

Cheers y'all

Jozeff

 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

15 hours ago, jozeff said:

I wanted to share my experience with Saffron with you.

 

im-just-wild-about-saffron

 

[jozeff]

Hi guys,

 

Well, my wife just woke up having contractions......at least that's what she thinks. She's timing now and I'm supposed to sleep a bit😉😉

 It's the Netherlands so it's the middle of the night.This could very well be the birth of our second boy.

 

K👶👶p you posted!!

 

Cheers

Jozeff

 

 

[India]

Yes please. Exciting

[jozeff]

Well, nothing happened....just cramps.

 

We'll have to wait some more..

 

[jozeff]

Hi guys,

 

It's been 8 months exactly since I decided to stay on 18 mg citalopram. Exactly the same time every day.

 

I don't feel stable but i am definitely better than late summer 2018. I still have bad days with anxiety, low mood and depression. It's always something else. Recently I was extremely depressed, then tired for a week and now I'm somewhat derealized and I wake up very early.

 

I really want to start tapering because I don't think I will be stable on 18 mg ever. 8 months isn't that short of a time either.

 

What do you think? Should I start a very slow taper like 5 % per month? I don't see why I would be more stable after 12 months then now after 8 months...

 

Thanks for you insight.

 

Cheers

Jozeff

[Gridley]

12 minutes ago, jozeff said:

Should I start a very slow taper like 5 % per month? I don't see why I would be more stable after 12 months then now after 8 months...

 

Unfortunately, there are no hard and fast answers.  It's best to be stable before tapering.  The best definition of stable that I've seen is from Brassmonkey:

 

"Stability is not the absence of WD symptoms, but rather a steady state of feeling crappy without any major swings either direction."  Does that sound like your situation?

 

Eight months is a long hold, and I know you're anxious to begin tapering.  No one can say whether you'd be more stable at 12 months than at 8.  Have you noticed your symptoms continue to slowly get better the longer you taper?  If so, you might want to consider holding a little longer.  If you seem to be staying about the same, maybe you're ready for a small taper, perhaps as you said 5%.  Ultimately, the decision has to be yours.

[Tom37]

I guess it’s down to if you have seen any improvement at all since you crashed. You mentioned above that you have improved so maybe a few more months is the way to go. Wd normal should be where you are pretty much consistent in how you feel each day/week/month and symptoms should be tolerable and not have much of an impact on your life. I’m still getting clear waves at just on 5 months out so that tells me need to keep on holding. Don’t think you can put a time scale on it as we are all different. Just be prepared that if your not stable and begin to taper symptoms can be a lot worse.

[India]

Hi Jozeff, it’s so difficult isn’t it? Only you can make decision. Do you want to wait for baby number 2 to come along?  It’s always relative. My mum says I am so much better than I was but I still suffer with severe /memory cognitive issues and stress intolerance ! Still, I know I have made small leaps even if I still feel tortured by it all. I’ve also been on 6mg for 7 months now. A long hold. Good luck with making right decision.

 

Maybe it’s not the right time to ask about liquid citalopram and what kind of release it is. 

[jozeff]

Hi guys,

 

A little update.....still no new baby in the house. My wife is 39 weeks pregnant and immensely tired. 

 

We are just waiting for the little man to arrive.

Decided to not taper for a while because of the baby and the lack of sleep he will initiate in our family 🤔🤔😜

 

Keep you posted.

 

I hope you are all doing great. I'm a little occupied with other things so I'm no active on the forum lately.

 

Cheers

Jozeff

 

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[Gracee]

Best wishes to you and your family, jozeff.   You made a wise decision to hold steady on your taper now.  

[Carmie]

Hi Jozeff, 

 

Nice to hear from you. Yes, great choice holding while going through a major life event.  Enjoy your new baby when he or she finally arrives. 👶🏻

 

Sending hugs🤗

[jozeff]

Hello everyone!

 

Proudly I announce from the hospital that my son just has been born. 3 hours ago, in the middle of the night, we became the parents of our second boy.

 

My wife lost 1700 cc of blood which is quite a lot so we have to stay in hospital for a day or two.

 

She suffered tremendously but she is doing fine now. Our boy is sleeping like a......baby!

 

Our 7 year old boy just happened to stay over at Grandma's and Grandpa s house so that will be a big surprise for him tomorrow morning!

 

 

Wish you all the best.

 

Jozeff

Nijmegen, the Netherlands

 

[Gracee]

What spectacular news!    Congratulations Dad.     Best wishes to you and your wife.    I hope Mom recovers quickly.    Be good to yourself.

Hugs,

G.

[Carmie]

Congratulations on the birth of your baby boy Jozeff, 

 

I hope your wife is feeling better soon, hugs to both of you.🤗

[puthappinessfirst]

Congrats! 😍🤗

[Dejavu]

What a tremendous blessing!! Congratulations!

[jozeff]

Thank you guys!

 

My son and wife are doing fine. She is recovering from blood loss and he is well...starting up his little life 😁

 

We went to hospital right after we were going to sleep and I had a serious panicking attack and diahrea right away. I swallowed 1 oxazepam and went for it. Unfortunately I had one panic attack in the morning and I suspect my zero hours of sleep triggered that one. Test of the day was ok but still felt nervousness rushing through my body.

 

Today was a bit better but I became a little scared because I thought I grew out of these panic attacks.

 

Now stay off of benzos before I get used to them. 

 

I hope our nights will not be to horrible so my panicking stays away.

 

What do you guys think of this panic attack? I think the sudden birth of my son just triggered things a bit. I had to manage stuff and I couldn't flee or hide from the situation. My heart rare was high all night and did not decrease for 6 or 7 hours.

 

 

Cheers and have a great day.

 

Jozeff

 

[Gridley]

21 minutes ago, jozeff said:

What do you guys think of this panic attack?

 

It was a very high-stress situation, and a panic attack while in WD doesn't seem to me to be anything to concern yourself about.

[JackieDecides]

2 hours ago, jozeff said:

Now stay off of benzos before I get used to them. 

 

that sounds like a very good plan. 

 

I think Gridley is right, it was a very high stress time and what with lack of sleep and so forth, no wonder your anxiety went way up. 

 

congratulations on your new son and I hope your wife continues to recover well. ❤️

[jozeff]

Hi guys,

 

A little update. My Little boy is now ten days old and he is doing perfectly fine!

 

My wife has recovered remarkably and she lost all her weight in one week....

 

our 7 year old son is having a lot of fun with baby but he also has to get used to him. He is no longer the only kid in the 🏠...

 

I am still taking saffron on a daily basis which helps me a

fight my depression feelings. I'm still feel low now and then but it is rather manageable.

 

 

 

I finally started my taper!!

 

One year after my initial taper and my nine months of stabilising I will give it a go.

I started a 1% per week taper, just to make a beginning.

 

I had been taking 18 mg citalopram for 9 months and last week I took 17.82, this week 17.64 and so on.

 

I think a 1% pw taper is a safe way to begin tapering don't you think.

 

I hope you are all doing fine!! I will be more active on the forum but with a newborn in the house that's not the priority unfortunately....

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

 

[jozeff]

A few questions my fellow sufferers,

 

Do SSRI's and citalopram (withdrawal) in particular cause trouble with vestibular system??

I mean, I got this strange anxiety and feeling of unrealness today and heart is beating faster and extreme fatigued. 

Also I have this problem focussing on moving objects like our dog running. 

 

All this causes a Sensation of feeling very off and worried about my health. Things were pretty ok last  weeks but yesterday and today are very troublesome.

 

I started a 1% taper last week but that is very very low reduction so I doubt that's causing trouble. Could a 1% taper make things worse after 10 days? If that is the case then there are 2 decades of tapering ahead of me......

 

I tend to sleep about 7 hours instead of 8 normally, could that be giving me a hard time as well?

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

 

Jozeff

 

 

[jozeff]

Anyone thoughts about this?

 

I'm in my third week of tapering....  I'm taking 17.47 mg citalopram now instead of 18 mg (1% per week taper).

 

I feel very low in the afternoon since a week or so. Could this be withdrawal?? Such a small decrease in meds....

 

I don't sleep very much because of the baby and I eat quite some not too healthy food right now.

 

Mods: could you shine some light on my symptoms please?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Jozeff

[Gridley]

8 minutes ago, jozeff said:

Could this be withdrawal?

 

I don't sleep very much because of the baby and I eat quite some not too healthy food right now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your decrease is very small, but it is possible that you are ultra-sensitive to drops in the drug.  But the low afternoons could also be attributable to your lack of sleep, which has a big effect on withdrawal symptoms.   

[jozeff]

Thanks gridley!

 

Sounds plausible. If I'm too sensitive to these 1% per week drops in citalopram then tapering is going to take a decade! 

I was thinking 3 or 4 years, that can't be too fast can it?

 

Are there people for whom 1% PW is too fast??

 

 

Thanks

Jozeff

 

 

 

[Gridley]

59 minutes ago, jozeff said:

Are there people for whom 1% PW is too fast??

 

Yes, there are some.  It's 4% per month, which isn't extraordinarily slow.  5% per month tapers are fairly common.

 

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

 

Depending on the severity of your symptoms, you may be able to handle the 1%PW taper.  Generally there's going to be WD symptom with each drop.  I wold monitor the situation and see how you do.  Another possibility is do a 1%PW drop with a 2-week or 3-week hold after four 1% drops, a version of the Brassmonkey taper.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Gridley

[eymen23]

2 hours ago, jozeff said:

Thanks gridley!

 

Sounds plausible. If I'm too sensitive to these 1% per week drops in citalopram then tapering is going to take a decade! 

I was thinking 3 or 4 years, that can't be too fast can it?

 

Are there people for whom 1% PW is too fast??

 

 

Thanks

Jozeff

 

 

 

 

Jozeff,

 

Unfortunately, you appear to be sensitive to drug reductions. Although your previous taper was a little faster than we recommend here, the fact you had such a severe crash and have had to hold for so long, suggests you’re going to have to take this slow and steady.

 

@Carmie is a great example of somebody who has to taper very slowly, I believe in the order of 3-4% at a time, and she will often take long holds as needed.

 

Admittedly I seem to fairly sensitive too and 10% drops proved to be a little less comfortable than I’d hoped. I have moved to 5% drops with as long a hold as needed, before another reduction.

 

Given you have a newborn and are perhaps sleeping less than ideal, it might be wise to wait longer between 1% drops or even delay the taper.

[Songbird]

On 5/10/2019 at 3:44 AM, jozeff said:

A few questions my fellow sufferers,

 

Do SSRI's and citalopram (withdrawal) in particular cause trouble with vestibular system??

I mean, I got this strange anxiety and feeling of unrealness today and heart is beating faster and extreme fatigued. 

Also I have this problem focussing on moving objects like our dog running. 

 

All this causes a Sensation of feeling very off and worried about my health. Things were pretty ok last  weeks but yesterday and today are very troublesome.

 

I started a 1% taper last week but that is very very low reduction so I doubt that's causing trouble. Could a 1% taper make things worse after 10 days?

 

 

It's quite possible, but worrying about it could make anxiety worse.  You'll need to learn to roll with it to some degree - some symptoms are to be expected.  However, as eymen  mentioned, it's a good idea to listen to your body and hold if symptoms are becoming too troublesome.  I agree, too, that when you have a newborn isn't the best time to be tapering.  Gridley mentioned trying the Brassmonkey Slide method which has a few tiny drops followed by a hold.  I've been tapering this way recently.  I recommend not going too rigidly by the calendar - listen to your body and hold longer if you need to, until you've stabilised.

[jozeff]

Thanks for your answer and tips.

 

I just got a little scared because such a tiny dosage change causes a lot of Neuro emotions or at least that's how it feels. I dropped 3% now accumulated in 2.5 weeks do that could possibly have an effect on my sensitive system. I find this hard to believe but nothing is impossible with these meds.

Combined with my lack of sleep, my snack habits the last couple of weeks and some coffee to wake up in the morning could contribute to the awful feeling I have around noon.

 

Ok, I'll listen to my body and not try to hold on to my schedule. Perhaps I should build in a holding week next week and see if things settle down. If they do I'll have to taper even slower......

 

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff