jozeff: trying to come off of citalopram - a little help would be great

[jozeff]

Thanks for stopping by @DutchMaddy! Appreciate it.

 

I've tapered diet coke over 2 weeks. 2000 ml, 1850 ml etc....

 

I'm really curious if the aspartame had a negative effect on my mood and wellbeing.

 

I let you guys know how it goes.

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

[DutchMaddy]

🙏👍

[jozeff]

Hi guys,

 

6 weeks without diet Coke! I tapered for 2 weeks. Last day I took 100 ml coke and from then on just quit. I also quit my chewing gum addiction  at the same time. Some days I took 50 pieces of sugar free gum.  Had to run to the bathroom every evening;)

 

I've had some extreme fatigue especially the first 2 weeks. Fell asleep on the couch three nights in a row. I'm also doing OMAD since January and I'm doing relatively ok.

 

I think I was addicted to diet coke and artificial sweeteners. They really made me feel happy.  My brain fog and depression have worsened quite a bit since quiting diet soda. I miss it but I'm pretty confident I can make it through.

 

I feel pretty excellent when I eat sugar or artificial sweeteners.  Like my problems fade away. Next morning however I feel terrible and bloated.

 

Well that's it for now.

 

Just wanted to to give an update.

 

Cheers

 

Jozef

 

[Momiki]

Congratulations, Jozef! Great job. Did you start OMAD out of the blue, or did you build it up? When I was doing intermittent fasting (18:6) a few months ago, I also felt unwell for the first two weeks. I thought it was my body adjusting to burning fat rather than sugar. After that, things were fine.

 

I can relate to sugar addiction as well. During times when I eat little sugar, I don't care much for the stuff and often find the sweetness overwhelming when I do eat it. During periods where I eat more of it, I tend to want more of the stuff, not feeling satisfied. For me it seems that eating fruit, especially berries, help curb the sugar craving. Perhaps it's the body's way of seeking out enough vitamins.

[jozeff]

Hi @Momiki Thanks for stopping by.

 

Yes I did build up intermittent fasting but I did it over a course of a couple of days .I decided to just skip breakfast and after a couple of days I skipped lunch al together.  I hadn't been having a normal breakfast for 2 years or so. Just a healthy shake. Every hour I took a sip and at the end of the working say I had like 1000 kcal. In evening I took a 1000 kcal meal.

 

Since January 2022 I skip the shake or any food whatsoever and only eat after 6 until 10 o'clock (20/4 schedule). This is pretty easy for me. My wife does the same thing without any trouble.

 

Saturday afternoon I eat some lunch, and French fries for dinner and on Sundays I have breakfast (👪 momemt) lunch and dinner. The next meal would be Monday evening, Tuesday evening... and so on.

 

I lost about 13 kg in 5 months or so but now I'm pretty stable. I eat about 1600-1800 kcal on normal days and quite a lot more on Saturday (could be 4000 or 5000 kcal some days....). Sundays sometimes I can't handle it and eat too much or I stick to the scheme..depends.

 

15 hours ago, Momiki said:

 

I can relate to sugar addiction as well. During times when I eat little sugar, I don't care much for the stuff and often find the sweetness overwhelming when I do eat it. During periods where I eat more of it, I tend to want more of the stuff, not feeling satisfied. For me it seems that eating fruit, especially berries, help curb the sugar craving. Perhaps it's the body's way of seeking out enough vitamins.

This is true. The more sugar I eat the more I need it. It is like a circle. When I start eating candy I can have a lot of it..

 

Diet coke made me crave carbs even more. I drink carbonated water now and I tend to drink way less of it and it fills my stomach better. No way I could drink 3 liter of that stuff but diet coke was not a problem.

 

Most symptoms I have at the momemt are:

 

- neck/shoulder tension that creeps into my head and creates this suicidal ideation because I just want it to stop. This seems to have worsened after quitting the diet coke. Could be adaption to less caffeine,  I don't know. Thought this would be a lot better after six weeks however.

- depression.  Overwhelmed by everything going on in the world, job uncertainty,  massive increase in prices  etc.

- stress. Lack of sleep.  I have a 3 year old and he wakes us (once, twice or more 😉) 5 out of 7 nights and he is awake pretty early (6 o'clock in the morning). I have trouble falling asleep because of ruminating so I never sleep before 11 or 1130. I get like 6 -7 hours of sleep max and this is not enough for me . Seldom feel completely rested or fresh despite my healthy habits.

 

I'm @ 2.3 mg citalopram at the moment and try to reduce 0.05 mg daily every week. This is actually increasing speed relatively  so I may slow it down when reaching 2 mg or so.

 

I started on 27 April 2019 @ 18 mg citalopram.  I managed to do a 1.1% per week taper quite consistently.  I never met anyone who did such a slow taper so I doubt many of my symptoms are caused by withdrawal. Maybe it's just my body fighting against the medication,  who knows. I would like to reduce by 10% at once some day bit I'm pretty scared of the effect that would have. I'm not looking forward to a month of agony. That would prove however that it is indeed withdrawal.

 

Well, that's it for now!

 

Have a nice day and happy healing.

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[bunchesofoats]

Hey @jozeff, great to see your progress! Interesting to read about your various diet changes. I tried 16:8 fasting many years ago and it seemed to throw my body into stress. But lately I've often been skipping dinner with no issue so I am thinking of formalizing a fasting window again. I have a hard time not eating in the morning because I like to have hot chocolate (raw cacao, no sugar) right after I wake up. You are probably right that both the caffeine and artificial sweeteners in the Diet Coke were having some impact on you. 

 

Is your current taper process still to dissolve a pill in water and pipette the needed amount? I've currently been taking a long pause at a steady 10mg tablet dose and my symptoms have stabilized. I'm wondering if I want to change my approach on my next taper in hopes of less severe and less frequent waves.

[wantrelief]

14 hours ago, jozeff said:

I doubt many of my symptoms are caused by withdrawal. Maybe it's just my body fighting against the medication,  who knows. I would like to reduce by 10% at once some day bit I'm pretty scared of the effect that would have.

You have made such good progress on your taper, Jozeff - congratulations!

 

I have also been going super slowly but also don't feel any of my symptoms are from the cuts themselves but rather the effect of the drug on my body (at least that is my working theory).  I am going to start slowly increasing the percentage I cut per week and see how I do.  I would like to work up to 2.5% per week if my body/brain can handle it.  I must admit I am pretty scared to change things up but then again would be so happy to make progress a bit quicker -albeit still at a safe pace/rate.

 

Wishing you all the best,

WR

[Momiki]

 

13 kg, that's no small feat! Congrats on that as well.

 

It's hard to say whether some things are due to withdrawal or not. It could be caffeine addiction (or calorie restriction) itself, it could be withdrawal, or perhaps the changes you made triggered withdrawal, so they're related... I wouldn't rule out withdrawal, though. I was relatively fine tapering citalopram (larger steps, but also larger holds), until I reached the 2 mg region. My main problem at the time was muscle stiffness in my back and neck (which indeed creeps to the head and is horrible!). So it could be you've reached the region where citalopram becomes tough to reduce. 1.1% per week doesn't sound like a lot, but for me, 5% per month is too quickly. I'm at 31 ml (1.24 mg) citalopram, currently reducing by 1 ml (that's 3.2% for the upcoming reduction), hoping to reduce every 6 weeks.

 

What helps me with muscle tension is regular (preferably daily, but I'm not that disciplined) massage, to prevent muscle knots (triggerpoints) from building up. You could massage your shoulders with a tennis ball, by putting it between yourself and the wall or floor. For me a peanut shaped massage ball was a game changer for my neck in the beginning. Now that most muscle knots are gone I prefer my hands and fingers there. Useful YouTube video can be found here. More information about triggerpoints themselves can be found here.

 

Judging by your username I'm assuming you're male. Eating 1600-1800 kcal on normal days then means you have a daily deficit of about 700 to 900 kcal (assuming you burn 2500 kcal daily). That's quite a big deficit, and could also lead to feeling tired. If you say that on Sundays you can't handle it, that sounds like you might not have a sustainable eating pattern. Perhaps bumping up your calorie intake on weekdays a bit and lowering it somewhat on Saturdays will be more healthy and sustainable?

  

Regarding ruminating before sleep: mindfulness might be helpful there. The Headspace app is an, euhm... 'laagdrempelige manier' to start with it. They also have a YouTube channel, including a video on what you could try against racing thoughts while trying to fall asleep.

 

 

[bunchesofoats]

Hey @jozeff, how have you been?

[jozeff]

Hi guys! I've been doing my things the last couple of months.

 

Thanks a lot @bunchesofoats and @Momiki

For stopping by.  Appreciate it. Haven't been updating for a while. Have been focusing on a new job opportunity after years of lab work.

Decided to stay on 2 mg citalopram for a couple of weeks to be as stable as possible for my new job. I'm planning on doing a very slow taper to zero, like 1 or 1.5 % per week.

 

I'm doing relatively well except for a lot of neck pain.

 

Hope you are all doing well and sorry for not reaching out sooner.

 

Cheers!

 

Jozeff

[bunchesofoats]

So great to hear you're doing well! Good luck with the new job opportunity! Glad you are taking it slow through the change.

[jozeff]

Hi guys,

 

Have been steady on 2 mg citalopram for 2 months now. It gave me some peaceful momemts not having to adapt to decrease in meds.

 

Unfortunately I have been in hospital since this morning with severe heart palpitations. I woke up having 200 bpm and I called 911 (other nummer here 😉). Went straight to the ER on heart monitoring. They medicated me to the point that my blood pressure was dangerously low. My heart rhythm was very irregular and I felt very ill. I have to stay in cardiac department for three days.

 

I had lots and lots of chocolate (like 500 grams....I know...ridiculous) and pancakes yesterday and the er guy told me that could very well have triggered my severe palpitations. Since I'm intermittent fasting for more than a year  my body cannot adapt to those amounts of sugar probably.  My blood glucose this morning was also very high...

 

Hope you are all doing very well guys!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

[wantrelief]

1 hour ago, jozeff said:

have been in hospital since this morning with severe heart palpitations.

I am so sorry you are in the hospital with severe heart palpitations, Jozeff.  It is good to know the cause may be from sugar as that is something you can control versus a heart condition.  I am keeping everything crossed that is what is going on and you feel better very soon.  

 

1 hour ago, jozeff said:

Have been steady on 2 mg citalopram for 2 months now. It gave me some peaceful momemts not having to adapt to decrease in meds.

It is good to know you've had some peaceful moments with holding.  You are doing so well to be down to 2 mg!

 

Best wishes,

WR

 

 

 

[jozeff]

Thanks @wantrelief appreciate it!

 

This morning my heart jumped back in sync thank God. I've been given metaprolol, flecainide and digoxine. 

 

Turned out the flecainide yesterday caused my blood pressure to jump from 130/85 to 53/40 in half an hour. Never felt that bad, absolutely horrible. 

 

I've been reading some bad things about flecainide - citalopram interactions but that might be not the case, I don't know.

 

At the momemt I hope my ❤️ keeps doing what it's supposed to do.

 

Now I'm just tired of this charade.

 

Hope you are doing 👍

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[jutland86]

Hi Jozeff

 

sounds like a horrible experience! Glad to hear that your heart is back to a normal rhythm!

 

wishing you all the best!

[jozeff]

Thanks @jutland86 much appreciated.

 

👍👍👍

[DutchMaddy]

1 hour ago, jozeff said:

Thanks @jutland86

Sorry something went wrong. 

👍👍👍

Take care Jozeff! Hope you recover soon!! 🙏🌹

[wantrelief]

What a scary experience @jozeff.  I am really glad to hear that this morning your heart went back in sync.  Hopefully you'll be home soon. 🤞

[Momiki]

Jeetje, jozeff, das schrikken! Veel beterschap gewenst!

[Caroline16]

Hi Jozeff,

 

You said, in your first message: "I work in a  chemical laboratory so carefully preparing the solution/weight etc is no problem for me."

 

Do you think you can explain how exactly you make your preparation, please? Or do you have a link to a YouTube video that shows how to do?

 

I am starting to have issues with my own mix!

[RachelSusan]

@jozeff

 

This must have made you feel terrible. It's very frightening.

17 hours ago, jozeff said:

caused my blood pressure to jump from 130/85 to 53/40 in half an hour.

Yes, I do hope that everything continues to work for you.  You didn't mention passing out, you must have felt like you were going to pass out.

 

I hope you continue to stay healthy.

[j1290]

Glad to hear you're on the mend, Jozeff!

[jozeff]

Thank you @j1290 @RachelSusan@Caroline16@Momiki@wantrelief@DutchMaddy@jutland86

 

Much appreciated  all your best wishes.

 

I'm still in hospital. They did a heart ultrasound and I'll have to wait for results. Fortunately my HR has been steady and slow for over 30 hours now.  Let's hope for the best.

 

They said I'm a bit young for these kind of issues so that's a bit concerning.

 

Cheers and wishing you all the best

 

Dankjewel Momiki,  dat was zeker schrikken. Dacht dat m'n laatste uurtje had geslagen.

 

Jozeff

[jutland86]

How are things, Jozeff? Hope that everything is back to "normal".

[jozeff]

Hi @jutland86!

 

Thanks for asking.  I've been at  home for over a week now. The gave me metoprolole to calm my ❤️. 

 

I've been taking it easy. No citalopram taper @ the moment.

 

I've head no heart arrhythmia since leaving hospital so fingers crossed.

 

How are you doing?

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

[Rosetta]

I’m glad to hear you are ok.  How scary! - Rosetta

[jozeff]

Hi guys,

 

Little update. I'm still doing ok after my arrhythmia.  Not been to hospital since it happened.  Things have been quite good. Pretty tired some days because of the beta blocker but for most days I'm doing fine.

 

Still on 2 mg citalopram,  haven't been tapering since mid December.

 

Cheers

Jozeff

[Momiki]

That's good to hear, Jozeff! Any clue whether the tiredness from the beta blockers will improve? Are they temporary, or a long term solution?

[jozeff]

Hi @Momiki,

 

Thanks for stopping by.

I'm sorry it took so long..very busy times. I changed jobs and I need all the energy in the world. Appreciate it.

 

I reduces my bèta blocker to 7.5 mg. I started at 100 mg but my hands were blue and I was out of breath all the time, just awful.  I have an appointment in July to check my heart condition.  I feel pretty good now. A few palpitations but no arrhythmia at all.

 

I didn't  change my citalopram intake.  Have been at 2 mg for 5 months now. Thinking of reducing a bit in a couple of weeks. See how that goes.

 

Hope you are all doing well.

 

Cheers!

 

Jozeff

 

[Momiki]

From 100 mg to 7.5, that's a big difference! Sounds like scary stuff, with your hangs turning blue. I once had a neurologist recommend beta blockers to help prevent migraine. He wasn't sure it would help much, but he thought that even a 5% improvement with the migraines would be worth it. I'm so glad I didn't follow along his blatant disregard of side effects.

 

It sounds really tough to have to deal with withdrawal, heart problems and a new job on top of that! A five month hold sounds like a long time, but in my experience reducing and stressful times don't go well together. Hopefully things will have settled in a couple of weeks, but I would still advise to be cautious. Purely based on my own experience of citalopram at and below 2 mg. Perhaps and hopefully you'll fare better.

[jozeff]

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks for your thoughts @Momiki.

I've been away from this website for quite a while. It's been going on and off the last couple of months. Had a lot of trouble in my relationship but we had some marriage counseling and things seem better now.

 

The biggest problem for me right now are negative thoughts and lack of energy. I have a lot of shoulder and neck pain that suck a lot of happiness and energy out of my body. Especially in late morning and early afternoon things tend to ramp up. Like my muscles are extremely tense and acidic. That sends a lot of pain and nerve tension to my neck and head which causes me to be very unhappy and want to cry sometimes.

 

When at work or other distractions things are manageable but when I try to relax during the day things are evil once in a while.

 

Have reached 1.45 mg citalopram which is a massive achievement coming from 18 mg. Have been tapering 4 years and 8 months, I cannot believe how much misery these meds have caused me. To be honest I expected to feel much better after all this time but unfortunately it is still a struggle.

 

As long as things keep positive I'll manage but I'm still very easily overwhelmed by hectic situations like when the kids are making loud noise or my wife arguing about nothing. I feel the tension in my shoulders increase immediately. I've been having these fights with the misses and the neck pain was almost unbearable at times.

 

It's just hard to relax some days..

 

Well,  hope you're all doing ok!

 

Wish you all the best

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

[Momiki]

Hi Jozeff,

 

I just came from a period of feeling beaten down by the frequent pain and nausea caused by muscles. I'm glad to say I'm doing a lot better at the moment, hopefully you'll be able to feel better too. I don't know if I posted this in your thread earlier already. I've been doing self-massage for quite some time already. It seemed to improve somewhat, but I still suffered from pain for a long time. It's been like peeling an onion, getting to know the muscles in my body, which ones are important for me to massage. I started with my back, then found out how horribly tense my neck was, and about two weeks ago a physiotherapist pointed me to the temporalis muscle, at the side of the head (as well as the masseter muscle, which also harbors a lot of tension in my case, but I'm not sure about its role in headaches for me).

 

Another game changer for me (which I found a few weeks ago and prompted me to once again try a physiotherapist) was this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4dmZ5_n6uU

 

I've been doing the exercises in the video, but also just been moving my neck around, feeling at which positions it feels good to stretch.

 

The second approach I'm taking is relaxation exercises. It is one of those things I know are probably beneficial, but I had a hard time incorporating it. I just felt too tense. Something the physiotherapist said reminded me of something I've read about before: that stress is like a bucket that is being filled. If the bucket is already full, you're easily pushed over the edge. But if the bucket is almost empty, then you can incur a lot more before you notice negative consequences. Trick is to work on getting the bucket empty.

 

I started with normal sitting in a chair observing the breath and short moments of standing still, feeling where in my body I'm holding tension, and noticed some improvements. I've also invested in a biofeedback thingy, Oxa (https://oxalife.com/en-eu) which will hopefully make things easier. Feels like a need a little less self-discipline when there's an app with a training program that's tracking my progress and quantifies improvements.

 

Hopefully you'll get some useful pointers from this. I would definitely recommend the neck stretches!

[jozeff]

Thanks a lot @Momiki,

 

Appreciate it a lot. I'm not able to white a lot of things because of brain fog and some family issues. 😕

 

I'll be back soon with some updates!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[wantrelief]

4 hours ago, jozeff said:

because of brain fog and some family issues. 😕

Sorry to hear this, Jozeff......I hope both of these resolve soon.  

 

Hang in there,

WR

[jozeff]

Thanks @wantrelief for your support!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[getofflex]

On 12/14/2023 at 4:24 AM, jozeff said:

Have reached 1.45 mg citalopram which is a massive achievement coming from 18 mg. Have been tapering 4 years and 8 months, I cannot believe how much misery these meds have caused me. To be honest I expected to feel much better after all this time but unfortunately it is still a struggle.

Congratulations for getting so low on your citalopram!  I agree, this is a very big accomplishment! 

 

I, too, expected to feel much better by this time, and had no idea how long it would take for healing and recovery to occur.  But, I'm optimistic that both you and I will recover!  I'm feeling significantly better now than I did just 6 months ago.