jozeff: trying to come off of citalopram - a little help would be great

[nick1990]

Hi Jozeff , I’ll leave advice regarding tapering to the moderators, but I do feel that you need more time . You will stabilise, it is just sooo much slower sometimes than we expect. But you will . At a guess I’m thinking your going to need atleast another few months , maybe 4-6 months more. I know it’s not what you want to hear but I really do feel that you should not be tapering yet as you are not stable it will only make it much worse. I understand the desire to taper but you have to be so patient bro.

 

Its important to realise that it’s not the drug dose that isn’t “right” for you but that your nervous system is in a state of sensitivity and instability - That is likely what is creating most of your symptoms. 

And it needs time, lots of it, to stabilise after a crash . It’s so important not to rush things as you could very well make your situation a lot worse .

 

hopefully one of the moderators will be able to assist you further .

 

all the best bro 

[jozeff]

Thank you nick, appreciate it a lot!

 

I've been eating quite a lot of nutritional yeast since 2 weeks. I didn't have problems with that but I ate less. Now I take 10-15 g per day. I have a lot of nausea after eating my shake for lunch lately. I mix, cottage cheese, spinach, oat meal, honey, olive oil, flaxseed oil, some fruits and nutritional years in the blender. 

 

Any thought about my nausea, very unpleasant feeling that I'm almost going to throw up or have a panic attack??

 

Any of your experiences would be great!

 

Jozeff

[jozeff]

Forgot to mention that I changed citalopram manufacturer on Monday 14th Jan 2019.

 

I used to take Aurobindo but now they gave me Sandoz. It could be me but I'm having a lot of issues the last couple of days.. could this have such a big influence? 

Does any of you have experience with citalopram manufacturer swaps??

 

Thanks a lot!!

 

 

Jozeff

[Gridley]

Do you have enough of the old brand left to do a crossover?

 

3/4 old, 1/2 for 3-7 days

1/2 old, 1/2 new for 3-7 days

1/4 old, 3/3 new for 3-7 days

all new thereafter

[wantrelief]

Hi Jozeff - I had to switch generics of liquid citalopram in November....I did have some of the old prescription so crossed over within a 2 week time period (I think) and it went smoothly.  This past week or so, I've also had to switch generics for the other medication I am on, clonazepam, and am doing well so far.  I only had 1 week of the old generic so it was a fairly quick switch but so far so good. Hopefully the symptoms you have noticed are coincidental and not related to the change of generics. 

[jozeff]

No I don't have old brand left....

 

My pharmacist changes brand pretty often, I never had trouble with that tbh. Now it just feels wrong but it might be placebo.

 

Jozeff

[JackieDecides]

On 1/15/2019 at 10:23 PM, jozeff said:

I suddenly changed my diet again to 2000 Kcal, smoothies, veggies etc.

 

and you think it may have increased your anxiety? when I am anxious I crave sweets. same with depressed, actually.

[jozeff]

Well, it could very well be that the overproduction of insulin, after a month binging, causes this misery. Just a theory. Changing diet all over sudden every few weeks is of course not "being as stable as possible"...

 

Just a small update: I talked to my pharmacist about my new brand of citalopram. I could get the old brand but my insurance wouldn't pay for it. 

 

I agreed to that and now I have my old Aurobindo citalopram back. I took the "new" brand for only  6 days. I felt like crap all these days (nausea, nervous like hell).Coincidence or not, I dont know.

 

I switched back immediately to my old brand  on Thursday 17th (yesterday). 

 

How long would it take to settle down again on my trusted brand. Few days? Any suggestions ( Gridley maybe)?

 

Thanks for your support guys! Appreciate it immensely.😁😁

 

Cheers 

 

Jozeff

[Gridley]

As you know, time predictions are very hard to make.  Since you took the new brand for only six days and then went back to the old I would  your system would regulate itself in a fairly short time.

[India]

Very sorry to hear you are going through this. The havoc these medications cause!

[India]

On 1/18/2019 at 8:50 AM, jozeff said:

Well, it could very well be that the overproduction of insulin, after a month binging, causes this misery. Just a theory. Changing diet all over sudden every few weeks is of course not "being as stable as possible"...

 

Just a small update: I talked to my pharmacist about my new brand of citalopram. I could get the old brand but my insurance wouldn't pay for it. 

 

I agreed to that and now I have my old Aurobindo citalopram back. I took the "new" brand for only  6 days. I felt like crap all these days (nausea, nervous like hell).Coincidence or not, I dont know.

 

I switched back immediately to my old brand  on Thursday 17th (yesterday). 

 

How long would it take to settle down again on my trusted brand. Few days? Any suggestions ( Gridley maybe)?

 

Thanks for your support guys! Appreciate it immensely.😁😁

 

Cheers 

 

Jozeff

As it was said to me.. you will stabilise!! So have faith you will. 

[jozeff]

Thanks India, Jackie, Gridley, wantrelief Nick

 

Well since last Friday I don't feel evilly bad anymore after returning to my trusted citalopram brand. The other brand made me feel very out of sync. Strange feeling of absence and not being myself....

 

Yesterday (Saturday) evening I had a pretty bad anxiety attack unfortunately, had been quite a while.... This might have something to do with 6 days of different meds of course, I mean I'm taking my trusted brand since 3 days again.

 

Last couple of weeks I had this nervousness creeping up on my neck and forehead which causes me to feel very off balance. This was fortified by changing brand for 6 days.

 

Is it really the case that bioavailability can differ so much between brands?

 

I had depression symptoms, these symptoms have subsided somewhat but now it's the nervousness that's causing trouble.

 

It's always one symptom or another..

Multiple symptoms or zero symptoms are almost never the case. Why is that?

 

 

Anyway, have a nice day you all and thanks for your support!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

 

 

[Carmie]

Hi Jozeff, 

 

Glad to hear that going back to your original brand of medication has helped. That much be a relief, sending hugs🤗

[JackieDecides]

4 hours ago, jozeff said:

Is it really the case that bioavailability can differ so much between brands?

 

doesn't seem like it should be so different, does it? but you could obviously tell the difference.

 

I'm glad you are back to your old brand! 

[jozeff]

Yeah, my old brand is better I guess,

 

Now the panicking is less but the depression symptoms hit me hard today.... Always something. I don't know, sometimes I think it's all over and then boom evil symptoms again. 

 

I hope to stabilize some day

 I'm 5 months on exactly the same dosage now. I'm starting to become hopeless you know. My symptoms don't seem to get better and staying on this stuff for 5 more years while tapering doesn't sound attractive to me. If the symptoms disappear in the first place.....

 

 

Well, have a nice day and thanks for your replies.

 

Jozeff

 

 

[Carmie]

Hi Jozeff, 

 

Just wanted to say thanks for popping around to my thread. I’m sorry your depression is so bad at the moment, sending hugs🤗

 

[JackieDecides]

On 1/21/2019 at 7:14 AM, jozeff said:

Always something. I don't know, sometimes I think it's all over and then boom evil symptoms again. 

 

☹️  it makes sense you feel hopeless because of the depression. in other words, it's another unpleasant feeling and it's temporary. 

doesn't make it any easier to live with! sending you hugs as well. 🤗

[jozeff]

Hi Jackie, Carmie,

 

Thanks for jumping in! Appreciate it.

 

Well, I try to help people here and there but sometimes I'm so overwhelmed by these symptoms that it's hard to think for others.

 

This week is pretty evil. I decided to stay home from work and told them my son had the flu. I spent the week playing games (PC) and on my phone. A little snow fun with our son. My wife is 6.5 months pregnant and get understandably has her own issues

So it hasn't been a great week. I used to enjoy these weeks at home but nowadays I feel so useless. Just waiting for the day to end.

 

In the evenings I feel remarkably good. I watch TV and have some nice stuff to eat and talk to my wife about life. 

 

The late mornings, early afternoons are the worst.

 

I still drink 1.5 liter of diet coke each day. I get as little as no exercise, just walking the dog twice a day. I used to be a fanatic fitness dude a decade ago. Sometimes I think I can never be that guy again....

 

Have a nice day!

 

Jozeff

 

 

[RusTW]

Hi Jozeff things will get better.I know it's hard to b hopefully during this.

Try to start a workout program to give u some endorphins.start slow then work up.dont give in to negative thinking. 

 

Best wishes Russ

[India]

Jozeff, just sending my support . In a pretty bad wave so can't be of much use but sending lots of healing energyb

[Carmie]

Hi Jozeff, 

 

Just wanted to say I hope this week is a bit better for you. Maybe slowly taper yourself off the coke, that’s probably not helping with the anxiety, which you already know. I hope your evenings continue to be good, sending hugs🤗

[jozeff]

Thanks Carmie and India,

 

Much appreciated! Sending hugs your way to support your wave India!!

 

I'll try to decrease my diet coke intake Carmie. It should be better for the long term anyways.

 

 

 

Thanks again! Going to work now

 

Cheers 

 

Jozeff

[jozeff]

Hi guys,

 

I'm still on 18 mg citalopram.

 

Apr2018-jun2018 tapered from 25 to 16.5 mg in 12 weeks (felt awful)

 

Updosed to 18 mg on august 14th2018 after WD symptoms.

 

I can't say I am stable but I don't see much improvements, just changing symptoms all the time.

 

I'm really planning on starting a 1% per week taper. I mean, I've been on the exact same dose for 5 months and I do not see myself getting stable or feeling great again on 18mg.

 

The 1% per week taper is really slow and just decreases 7 mg in one year to start with. Do you think that is doable now?

 

I was thinking about no holding weeks since this taper is already slow.

 

Thank for you advice!!

 

Jozeff

[Gridley]

You might consider giving 18mg a little more time.  I know 5 months seems like a long hold but it's not really that long.  I would try to reach a more stable spot before tapering.

4 hours ago, jozeff said:

 

I can't say I am stable but I don't see much improvements, just changing symptoms all the time.

 

I'm really planning on starting a 1% per week taper. I mean, I've been on the exact same dose for 5 months and I do not see myself getting stable or feeling great again on 18mg.

 

 

[nick1990]

Jozeff, hi .

 

i would not be tapering mate . We have discussed this , and it is not wise to taper when unstable. You will stabilise. 

 

 

[Tom37]

I would love to taper as well as want to get off this poison but know it would more than likely make everything so much worse so as above hold off.

 

 

 

 

 

[jozeff]

Hi guys you tricked me into not tapering then😉😉

 

My theory was as follows.....

 

If I had tapered from 25 mg citalopram from April 2018 to now using the 1% p/w taper I would have reached 16.5 by now(the dose where I had to hold because of wd from too fast a taper from April to June).....Since I'm at 18 mg now I thought starting a 1% taper would be possible and pretty safe.

 

 

I know it doesn't exactly work this way and that fast taper might in fact cause longer trouble than a slow taper in the end.

 

Gridley any ideas about my theory?

 

 

Thank you guys for taking the time to read this and help me!!

 

Gridley uhh greatly appreciated!

 

 

Cheers

Jozeff

 

[ChessieCat]

oxazepam once a week maybe 

 

Q1:  How often are you using Oxazapam?

 

Q2:  When did you start the Lithium?

 

Q3:  Are you taking any other supplements not mentioned in your drug signature?

 

Q4:  Are you drinking coffee or cola drinks or energy drinks?

 

Q5:  Do you eat anything containing MSG or artificial sweetners?

 

Q6:  How is your sleeping?

 

Q7:  Are you doing any regular gentle exercise?

 

Q8:  What non drug techniques are you using to help calm your nervous system, not when needed, but regularly?

 

It might help you to keep daily symptom notes on paper so you can see if there may be something which you take, eat, do that may be causing an issue.

[jozeff]

Hi Chessiecat!

 

Q1.

I use oxazepam once or twice a week, 5 mg each( half tablet). Try to take 4 to 5 days without it. Only when I'm very anxious.

 

Q2.

Lithium started 6 months ago or so, didn't take it for 6 weeks but now I take it again. Very, very low dose like 1mg which is average daily intake.

 

Q3.

I take magnesium citrate 400 mg each day and fish oil high quality 1 capsule

 

Q4.

I drink 3 to 4 cups of coffee and more than 1 liter of diet coke. I'm trying to decrease that significantly to almost zero....

 

Q5.

Not too much, sometimes gum.

 

Q6.

Sleeping is pretty good. Like 7-9 hours. Sometimes panicky in bed but I sleep for hours without waking up.

 

Q7.

No excersize. I walk a lot while working on the lab. That's it. Heart rate is always below 90....

 

Q8.

I do breathing excersize sometimes. 

Not regularly. Try to manipulate my  adrenal glands but nothing seriously.

 

I keep notifications with food, supplements, symptoms and abnormalities on a daily basis.

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by ChessieCat
removed quote

[Tom37]

Not sure if relevant or not but could the stopping and starting again of the lithium have affected your stabilising? Maybe a moderator will know.

 

Just could be an answer for you and could just mean you need more time to stabilise since added a new drug during the process.

 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

13 hours ago, jozeff said:

I use oxazepam once or twice a week, 5 mg each( half tablet). Try to take 4 to 5 days without it. Only when I'm very anxious.

 

I'm more concerned about this.  I've asked the other mods for their thoughts.

[jozeff]

Hi chessiecat,

 

My oxazepam intake is really really low. I didn't take it for 10 days now or so. And when I do it's 5 mg to begin with and this, in most cases helps a lot. I think u take 15 mg a month. This is not much.

 

My mother used to take 30 mg daily for years and my uncle took 20 mg daily for 40 years. 

 

I'm not really concerned about this myself. I call my GP when there's no oxazepam left and I haven't called him for months.

 

Thanks for your concern but u have no problem with oxa. I'm very sensitive to addiction so I'm very careful with benzos.

 

Thanks you!

 

 

Jozeff

[Shep]

3 hours ago, jozeff said:

My oxazepam intake is really really low. I didn't take it for 10 days now or so. And when I do it's 5 mg to begin with and this, in most cases helps a lot. I think u take 15 mg a month. This is not much.

 

My mother used to take 30 mg daily for years and my uncle took 20 mg daily for 40 years. 

 

I'm not really concerned about this myself. I call my GP when there's no oxazepam left and I haven't called him for months.

 

Thanks for your concern but u have no problem with oxa. I'm very sensitive to addiction so I'm very careful with benzos.

 

 

Jozeff, please update your signature with your oxazepam use. You currently have this at the very end (on the same line as your supplements) -  "oxazepam once a week maybe"

 

Please update your signature to include "oxazepam once a week" on its own line and also include the date (month / year) you started using this drug. Your signature is here:

 

Account - Settings - Signature

 

Periodic benzo use can be problematic, especially during withdrawal from another drug. It can mask symptoms and cause you to taper your antidepressant more quickly. Please note your symptoms are your teacher and your guide and will show you if you are tapering too fast.

 

Also, benzos are notorious for causing rebound symptoms, as well as kindling the nervous system with on and off use. Over time, even with periodic use, your nervous system can become damaged, especially if your antidepressant withdrawal is already causing nervous system instability. 

 

I know you have relatives who used them for years, but that isn't because they worked so much as they are notoriously difficult to get off of. Benzos only work for a short period of time, but then we keep taking them to stave off withdrawal. So someone staying on them for decades is less a sign of effectiveness and more a sign of dependency. And they are linked to all sorts of health problems, including cognitive decline. 

 

 

19 hours ago, jozeff said:

I use oxazepam once or twice a week, 5 mg each( half tablet). Try to take 4 to 5 days without it. Only when I'm very anxious.

 

It sounds like you're using it more for anxiety than for sleep. Is this correct?

 

If so, you may want to check out some of the non-drug coping skills for breathing techniques and other ways of coping.

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

A sample of great breathing techniques to quieten anxiety: 

 

4-7-8 Breathing: Health Benefits & Demonstration

 

The Breathing Space by Jon Kabat Zinn video (4 minutes)

 

19 hours ago, jozeff said:

I drink 3 to 4 cups of coffee and more than 1 liter of diet coke. I'm trying to decrease that significantly to almost zero....

 

Tapering off of caffeine and anything "diet" may be a lot more helpful than anything in calming anxiety. I'm so glad to read you are decreasing this. Do so gradually, though. 

 

The issue with benzos isn't just with addiction, but also with rebound anxiety. If you can avoid using benzos, you'll avoid the rebound and may feel a lot better without them. 

 

As you come off the antidepressant, you may find some overwhelming emotions flooding in that you haven't felt for years. Learning breathing techniques and other ways of self soothing will prepare you for this so by the time you are done with your antidepressant taper, you will have all the non-drug coping skills already in place. 

[jozeff]

Hi Shep,

 

Thanks for you concern and information!

 

Yes, the oxazepam is only for extreme anxiety or uncomfortable and uncontrollable emotions. This is Max 10 mg once per week or 2 times 5 mg per week. This is really not that much. Few weeks ago I didn't use it for 3 weeks so I don't think there is a problem when I use it like this.

 

I'm very careful with the benzo's. I can get way more benzo's than I need or use. From my pharmacist. I've been reading a lot about the trouble they cause on this website!

 

The GP prescribed it very easily and said only problem is not getting addicted to them. 

I'll update my signature.

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

 

Jozeff

[Altostrata]

On 1/28/2019 at 10:31 AM, jozeff said:

I can't say I am stable but I don't see much improvements, just changing symptoms all the time.

 

Please keep daily notes on paper with times of day for when you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms. You can post them in this topic with a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right. Post your notes here in your Intro topic.

 

On 1/29/2019 at 9:40 AM, jozeff said:

I drink 3 to 4 cups of coffee and more than 1 liter of diet coke. I'm trying to decrease that significantly to almost zero....

 

Please include your caffeine intake in your daily notes. This will help us see if citalopram or anything else you're taking is causing your symptoms.

 

(The amount of caffeine you're ingesting may well be causing anxiety, nervousness, even "panic" attacks. IYou're lucky it hasn't affected your sleep.)

 

Was there a period when you took oxazepam every day? If so, when was that and how often during the day?

[jozeff]

Hello Alto,

 

No I never took oxazepam daily. Just once or twice per week max. Currently I take it maybe once a week. Sometimes weeks without it.

 

 I keep daily notes in an Excel sheet.

 

Should I post my symptoms daily here? My topic will me massive in a few months time, I mean many pages of times and symptoms.....will anybody still read my posts then?

 

Thanks!

 

Jozeff