Atao: Mirtazapine CT and withdrawal

[manymoretodays]

Atao,

You could try the brand name Seebri in the interactions checker.  The Ultibro consists of glycopyrronium bromide and indacterol maleate.  Seebri came up as an alternate Brand, perhaps more commonly used in the U.S.

I did see some moderate interactions, between your inhalers, and then some dietary considerations and cautions, around your thyroid med, Eltroxin.

 

 

On 8/17/2018 at 1:17 PM, Altostrata said:

Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages. Use a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

Alto is referring to doing something like this daily drug and symptom log

Include the times that you take the Lyrica, also the inhaled medications(by name).........and symptoms throughout the day. 

It's just much easier to view quickly, than to read through narrative descriptions.

 

Okay......thanks.  Give the daily notes/log a good try.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

[Atao]

Thank you manymoretodays

 

Here is a new list of my medications and a list of the last few days.  Is this done correctly, I want to get it right so I can get the help I need.  Maybe you could explain to me more about the interactions.

 

Combivent

Treatment for COPD, Maintenance2.5 mg-0.5 mg/3 mL inhalation solution as required

 

Eltroxin

Treatment for Underactive Thyroid75 mcg (0.075 mg) oral capsule one time

 

Lyrica

100 mg oral capsule two times per day

 

Seebri Neohaler

Treatment for COPD, Maintenanceinhalation capsule one time per day in the morning

 

Ventolin

Treatment for COPD, Acuteinhalation aerosolas required

Fri

11am  Woke up with severe unease, burning, tremor pins & needles

11:15am Ate breakfast

11:30am Took Lyrica 100mg, Eltroxin 75, Ultibro inhaler

3:pm Symptoms eased a little

3:15pm Ate lunch

6pm Symptoms got bead again

8pm Ate dinner

11pm Ate a little

11:30pm Took Lyrica

2am symptoms still bad

2am went to bed - slept most of the night, waking a little agitated at times

 

Sat

11am  Pins & needles, numbness, tremor, disorientation, weakness, fatigue.

11:15 Ate breakfast

11:30 Took Lyrica 100mg, Eltroxin 75, Ultibro inhaler

3:15pm Ate lunch

8pm Ate dinner

11pm Ate a little

11:30pm Took Lyrica

Symptoms lasted all day

2am went to bed - slept all night

 

Sun

11am  A little mild tremor

11:15am Ate breakfast

11:30am Took Lyrica 100mg, Eltroxin 75, Ultibro inhaler

3:15pm Ate lunch

6pm Still just mild tremor - my best day so far

[manymoretodays]

Atao,

How often do you use the Combivent and Ventolin inhalers?

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, Atao. What do you mean by tremor? Where do you get pins and needles?

 

When you had the cancer treatment, did you also have chemo and radiation? Did you have any adverse effects from this?

 

 

[Atao]

I take Ultibo inhaler once a day. I rearly  take ventolin.  It is an inner tremor not visible. It has bee in my legs for twelve years now. On a bad day it is all over my body. Same with pins & needles.  I have seen two neurologists. No physical findings. Last one said I have protracted WD Syndrome. No chemo or radiation. 

[Altostrata]

Do you sit a lot? Can you do gentle stretching exercises?

 

Many people do better with fish oil and magnesium supplements, see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/
http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

A lot of people find them helpful. Try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

Magnesium in particular can help relax the legs.

[Atao]

I exercise as much as i can. Will try fish oil and magnesium. Thank you so much. 

[Atao]

Hi Altostrata

 

I got the magnesium tablets from one of our leading health stores here in Dublin, so I hope they are good quality.  They are 250mg, how many should I start with.  Is the mg to high should I break them?

Please advise

 

[Songbird]

11 hours ago, Atao said:

I got the magnesium tablets from one of our leading health stores here in Dublin, so I hope they are good quality.  They are 250mg, how many should I start with.  Is the mg to high should I break them?

Please advise

 

It can be a good idea to start with a small dose to see how your system reacts, and if it doesn't cause problems gradually increase the dose.

There's a lot of good information here (mostly in the top post): Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

[Atao]

Thanks Songbird

 

I'm sorry I didn't see the link in Astostrata's reply with the information on magnesium.

[Atao]

Hi 

 

I'm having a very bad day, numbness, tingling, burning, disorientated, weakness, lung problems severe.  Worse day so far, can't get out of the chair.  I feel like I'm dying, I'm probably not, but it feels like it.  At this stage I'm more afraid of living than dying.  I don't mean to be dramatic its just the way I feel.  I have protracted withdrawal symptoms, this wave I have is going on for nine weeks.  I'm drained and frightened.

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, Atao. How long have you been taking Lyrica on that schedule? Did it ever relieve withdrawal symptoms?

 

It has a half-life of only 6 hours, which means it could be wearing off in the afternoon and overnight.

 

1 hour ago, Atao said:

Hi 

 

I'm having a very bad day, numbness, tingling, burning, disorientated, weakness, lung problems severe.  Worse day so far, can't get out of the chair.  I feel like I'm dying, I'm probably not, but it feels like it.  At this stage I'm more afraid of living than dying.  I don't mean to be dramatic its just the way I feel.  I have protracted withdrawal symptoms, this wave I have is going on for nine weeks.  I'm drained and frightened.

 

 

When did those symptoms start?

[Atao]

Hi Altostrata

 

I've been on Lyrica for six years now, they seemed to take the edge off for a couple of weeks.  After that they did nothing for me, good or bad.  While the symptoms have always been with me, nine weeks ago they became very severe.  I have not been able to function for most of that time.   I cannot account for the surge in symptoms, nothing happened.  Over the years I have made some attempts to come of Lyrica.  I reduced it by 25mg a day, but I couldn't manage it.  Do you think I should come off it?  I really can't go on like this. 

 

Thanks you

[manymoretodays]

Hi Atao,

 

21 hours ago, Altostrata said:

When did those symptoms start?

 

Thanks for listing your meds above.

If you go on back to drugs.com

It will tell you more about the interactions with your inhalers.  I think that when you have a bad day........with breathing symptoms, that it's important to space out your use of the different inhalers.  For example:  If you used them all at once you could get to feeling even more jittery inside........and maybe even some of the tingly, burning sensations that you describe.  What's the air quality like there?

 

Are you eating better or a bit more now?  I mean that sounds like a dumb question but just eating regularly can help so much sometimes with so many symptoms.  Don't be shy about searching around the site a bit on your own either.  If you just type in survivingantidepressants.org numbness, tingling, burning  for example, in your main browser you might be able to find coping skills that are new and fresh that help.  This is what came up for me.  Paresthesia: Pins and Needles

 

Symptoms and self care

In case I didn't give you that link.

 

Do some more symptom logs too for us.  I noticed you had a best day I think last Sunday.  It looked like you do your 100 mg dose of Lyrica at 11:30 in the morning and at night.  It's supposed to help with some of the symptoms you describe........but does have side effects like your symptoms too, and a few more.  Oh the world of drugs, eh!!!!! 

 

Do you have any other health related issues?  Diabetes or kidney disease?  It's possible that switching your dosing around a bit might help..........perhaps taking your dosage all at night or splitting the total daily dose into 3 times a day.  That's why the symptom logs help both you and us to see if there are regular patterns........even improvements, related to when you take your Lyrica and inhalers.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

[Altostrata]

Since you have a lung condition, we can't tell what's going on with that symptom.

 

Did you change or add any of your drugs other than Lyrica 9 or 10 weeks ago?

 

We can test whether Lyrica is causing these symptoms by changing your Lyrica schedule slightly. For example take 50mg at 11:30 a.m. as usual and 50mg at 2:30 p.m.. see if your symptom pattern changes. You will have to keep careful daily notes of your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages.

 

 

 

[Atao]

Hi 

 

I've started to come off Lyrica.  I am on 100mg twice a day. I have read from three different sources that I have developed a tolerance for the drug and as such, I am experiencing withdrawal.  I'm going through hell, I really am, and I don't think I am physically strong enough to deal with this.  For two days now I have reduced by 5mg in the morning only.  I am hoping my condition won't get worse, if all goes well, I plan to reduce the night time dose by 5mg in maybe two weeks time.  I know I've a long road ahead of me, but I also know from experience of trying to come off Lyrica that a ten percent drop is too much for me.  Any advice would be welcome.

 

Thank you for reading this

[SkyBlue]

On 8/25/2018 at 5:42 PM, Altostrata said:

Did you change or add any of your drugs other than Lyrica 9 or 10 weeks ago?

 

We can test whether Lyrica is causing these symptoms by changing your Lyrica schedule slightly. For example take 50mg at 11:30 a.m. as usual and 50mg at 2:30 p.m.. see if your symptom pattern changes. You will have to keep careful daily notes of your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages.

 

 

Please respond to these questions. ^

 

What kind of withdrawal symptoms are you experiencing currently? 

 

What kinds of coping skills are you using right now? Do you have support, and/or anything that might help as a distraction? 

Any luck with the magnesium you tried? This is the time to gather as many skills and tools as possible.

 

If you know that a 10% drop will be too much, it's a very, very good idea to go more slowly. Earlier this month you mentioned that when you went down faster, all hell broke lose. 

 

Are you familiar with the Brassmonkey slide? Brassmonkey is a moderator here who has devised a method for coming off by 10% but by 2.5% reductions spaced out over a month. If you are interested in learning more, enter "Brassmonkey Slide" into the search bar on this site (top right side of any page on this site).

[manymoretodays]

On 8/25/2018 at 4:42 PM, Altostrata said:

We can test whether Lyrica is causing these symptoms by changing your Lyrica schedule slightly. For example take 50mg at 11:30 a.m. as usual and 50mg at 2:30 p.m.. see if your symptom pattern changes. You will have to keep careful daily notes of your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages.

 

Hi Atao,

You might consider trying the above before considering a taper.  Again, as you are making the changes......keep the drug and symptom logs going, using the simple format.  Do it on paper first, and then share here.

 

Dropping 5 mg from your total daily dose of 200 mg would be a 2.5% decrease.  So that might be a good idea for later.  I know you had extreme misgivings about tapering at all.  What has changed?

 

When you had the cancer treatment, did you also have chemo and radiation? Did you have any adverse effects from this?

Alto had asked that and I wondered as well. 

 

I hope today is a good one for you......or you have a good night.

L, P, H, and growth,

mmt

 

[Atao]

Hi manymoredaysI was just about to reply to SkyBlue

Answer to yours and Altostrata's questions:

I made no changes to medications at all - this came at me out of the blue nine weeks ago.

Current symptoms: tingling, numbness, strange sensations, anxiety, panic attacks, and sweating. Every time I eat I get diarrhoea.  I am losing a lot of weight.

I have no support.

Distractions: I am using the internet a lot, sudoko, card games, jigsaws, videos, documentary's and audiobooks.

I am taking the magnesium, no effect yet.

I am following Brassmonkey's slide.

As of today I will change medication times - I took 45mg of Lyrica at 11:30 and will take the other 50mg at 2:30 as suggested by Altostrata.

 

I have an appointment to see my doctor at 5pm this evening.  I haven't seen him in months. I'm going to ask him if there is an impatient detox, because I don't think I'm physically fit enough to get through this, the symptoms are too severe and I don't understand where they came from.  Plus I'm losing the ability to look after myself.

 

 

 

[Atao]

Ps I had no chemo or radiation.  The reason I want to come off Lyrica is because I now think it could causing my problem.

[manymoretodays]

Oh Atao.......

 

double post.  Okay, thanks for the information on the chemo/radiation. 

 

I'm so sorry it's all feeling so desperate.  We don't really recommend detoxes.  If you go off the Mirtazepine too fast.......it will probably make things worse, which is often what they do at detoxes........and then prescribe more medications for withdrawal.  I know that feeling though, as do many here.  Hoping it passes and you get some return of physical energy soon.

 

Good idea to check with your Dr. now though.  Ask his opinion and have him do some basic labwork, checking for anemia or any causes of increased fatigue.   Are you eligible for some home health care services?  Maybe he/she can approve something like that.  Are there neighbors or friends that you can call on?

 

That's what it looked like, that you were planning on the slide method.  Don't go through it right now then......if you don't feel up to it.  Let's see if some dose shifting, and careful recording of symptoms helps.  It might take a week or two to notice. 

 

Stay away from reading the stuff here that CAN be overwhelming sometimes.  And then stress and symptoms.

 

We're here, as far as being some support.   Excellent on your distractions and learning.

 

Which form of magnesium are you taking and how much?  That might be the cause of the diarrhea. 

 

Best and better,

L,P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited August 27, 2018 by manymoretodays
update

[Atao]

Hi manymoredays

 

I have a home help for an hour each morning.  She is a girl from Chile and she is a great support.  I will have blood work done.  I'm taking magnesium 25mg but I had the diarrhea before I took it.  I will take on board what your saying and I am delighted with your support.  But I do need to stress this, I really can't go on as I am.  I had a complete melt down last night.  It completely overwhelmed me and I felt like killing myself (hate being dramatic).  Nine weeks ago I was living a normal life - than out of nowhere this hit me - its unbearable, it really is.  

[manymoretodays]

Okay.  Keep us posted. 

Maybe there is something medical going on.  I'm glad you are going in and getting checked out.

 

I'll be sending some prayers and positive intentions out and upward.

 

((((Atao hugs)))))

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

On 8/26/2018 at 7:19 AM, Atao said:

Hi 

 

I've started to come off Lyrica.  I am on 100mg twice a day. I have read from three different sources that I have developed a tolerance for the drug and as such, I am experiencing withdrawal.  I'm going through hell, I really am, and I don't think I am physically strong enough to deal with this.  For two days now I have reduced by 5mg in the morning only.  I am hoping my condition won't get worse, if all goes well, I plan to reduce the night time dose by 5mg in maybe two weeks time.  I know I've a long road ahead of me, but I also know from experience of trying to come off Lyrica that a ten percent drop is too much for me.  Any advice would be welcome.

 

Thank you for reading this

 

Please don't reduce Lyrica right now. What are the symptoms you attribute to Lyrica "tolerance"?

 

What symptoms do you attribute to mirtazapine withdrawal in 2006?

[Atao]

Hi Altostrata

 

Just reading posts now, won't reduce Lyrica now.  Tried changing times that I take Lyrica as you suggested and am feeling a little better, although I think its too soon to tell if its going to make a difference.  You said this is a test, I trust you will explain that later.  

I have never fully recovered from the mirtazapine withdrawal the sensations reduced over the years with flare-ups now and then, but never to this extreme.  I still believe the mirtazapine withdrawal is the initial problem.  From information I have gathered on the forum, an article by doctor (explaining his own experience on Lyrica) who writes for the Irish Times, and information on our national medical website, all talk about developing a 'tolerance' for Lyrica.  I am understanding this as a need for more of the drug, I have no intention of increasing.  Am I understanding 'tolerance' correctly.  Saw my doctor on Monday, blood test Tuesday, will see him again next Monday.  As I have calmed down a little I see the sense in what I'm being told, a medical detox is not the way to go.  I have no faith in doctors at all, they really are my enemy.  My doctor is ok, but he knows nothing about this stuff.  Things are still very bad and I am anxious to come off Lyrica, but I will take the advice of the people who have been through it.  I would also like to add that whatever advice I follow - I take sole responsibility for my own actions.

Thank you so much for your reply and I hope to hear from you soon.

[Altostrata]

5 hours ago, Atao said:

You said this is a test, I trust you will explain that later.

 

Depending on how your symptom pattern changes, we may be able to figure out whether some of the symptoms you're having are adverse effects of Lyrica.

 

Don't worry about "tolerance." Sometimes a larger dose causes a paradoxical reaction -- it does the opposite of what's intended. Smaller, more frequent doses may eliminate the paradoxical reaction while maintaining whatever benefit Lyrica has for you.

 

Or, your body could be telling you that you're taking too much Lyrica altogether now, and it's time to taper it.

 

Please let us know about changes in your symptom pattern. Be sure to keep notes about what times of day you take your drugs and their dosages.

 

 

[Atao]

Hi Altostrata 

 

I've been gone off site for some time.  I've been through Hell.  I tried to come off the Lyrica,  I reduced by 5mg, and went through withdrawal, I got over this.  Three weeks later I reduced by 2.5mg, still felt withdrawal.  Then reduced by 1mg.  Over eight weeks, I got down by 13mg out of 200mg.  I spent four days in severe withdrawal, yesterday I had to give up because it was unbearable, so I went back on the full 200mg.  I coming back to normal now.  This of course was all on top of the damage from the Mirtazapine damage I'm going through.  I also did something, I was advised not to do, I made an appointment at a private psychiatric to see if they could get me off it.  That appointment was today.  It went so badly, I told them very little about myself.  I said I just wanted to know if they did a Lyrica detox.  However, they picked on a very minor incident in my past, 38yrs ago, and said I was suffering from major trauma because I had not dealt with it.  And told  me the withdrawal symptoms were all in my head.  The doctor said it only takes two week to get over the withdrawal of antidepressants.  I told her that, I 100% rejected her diagnoses, and it was not to be sent back to my doctor to go on my record.  I told her the medical profession had done me enough damage already and I would not accept another label.  All that said, I don't know how I am going to cope with all this - what a mess.  

 

Atao 

[manymoretodays]

Hi Atao!

Sounds like an awful experience with the psychiatric.  What most of us have found......is.......that.......we have to kind of play a bit of a charade, or game with our doctors.  Ooof, many don't like to be treated like an equal partner or don't like to treat us that way.  I've found it easier, often, to just imagine throwing some red paint on a canvas or the floor........than to subject myself to educating those who just don't want to be educated.

 

On 8/25/2018 at 4:42 PM, Altostrata said:

We can test whether Lyrica is causing these symptoms by changing your Lyrica schedule slightly. For example take 50mg at 11:30 a.m. as usual and 50mg at 2:30 p.m.. see if your symptom pattern changes. You will have to keep careful daily notes of your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages.

How far did you get with trying this?  I remember you were greatly distressed and do hope that has lifted, even if only by a few degrees.  I hope you are feeling slightly improved now.  So nice to see your post!

 

Do do some of the simple daily notes Atao.  I think we went over this before you hit bottom.....so to speak.

Note the day.  Then on the left, the time..........over on the right side note your drug name, dosage, symptoms.  Include your sleep, and any other medications or supplements used.  Also include your eating habits.  It will really help Alto to advise, and then I am happy to try and help and share, with some non-drug coping skills that have worked real well for me.  And even find some that might help you now.

 

Best,

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

[Atao]

Thank you for you reply  manymoredays

I already did change my dose times for a few weeks and felt no change, I don't know what that tells you.  I will get back to the note taking tomorrow.  I still believe that it is the zispin that is causing the problem, but I would love to come off the Lyrica.  Today is my worst in a long time.  I am feeling very sick and confused most of the time.  Although I am back on the full dose of Lyrica, I have not recovered from the attempt.  Yesterday I though I was over it, but today its bad, will just have to stick it out.  There is a raging storm about SSRI's in the Daily Mail Online, an English newspaper.  The paper believes that, given the public's response to their articles, the British Government can no longer ignore the dangers and the prolonged withdrawal that these drugs cause.  It is a comfort to know that it is getting so much attention on that side of the puddle.  As for the Irish response, our government is sleeping through it.

 

Many thanks

Atao

[Atao]

Hi 

I have not been in touch for a while.  As I already explained I get a lot of windows and waves and for the last couple of months I am experiencing windows.  I'm getting a good break at the moment, but I know the waves are waiting around the corner for me.  That has been the pattern for twelve years now.  I had a really bad summer and it has taken a lot out of me.  I am very angry about what antidepressants have done to me - they stole my quality of life.  Over the summer I channelled this anger into writing a book about the dangers of antidepressants.  I have sent it off to a professional reader and editor and I am now awaiting the verdict.  If I get a good report on it, I am going to try to have it published.  I read somewhere that if you have a problem with something try to do something about it.  Well, the book is my taking action, even if it never sees print - I've tried and I feel good about that.

 

Atao

[ChessieCat]

10 hours ago, Atao said:

Well, the book is my taking action, even if it never sees print - I've tried and I feel good about that.

 

If you can't get it print published you could get it ebook published.  https://www.lulu.com/  Create, publish and sell your book for free.  (Disclaimer:  no affiliation - I've found books on there that I have purchased)

[Atao]

Hi ChessieCat

 

Thank you so much for your reply, unfortunately the email telling me I have a reply went into my spam.  That sounds like a good option, will check it out.

 

Atao

[Atao]

After a short break from withdrawal symptoms, they have come back with a vengeance. I'm in hell at the moment. I know my brain is permanently damaged, so my situation is hopeless. Will I have the courage to wait till it passes, and even if it does, it will only come back again.

 

Atao  

[bheb]

Hey Atao, just did a quick read over your thread. I'm so sorry you've suffered so much and for so long. But it really doesn't seem hopeless to me! You've reported having some good windows and that's not nothing! I know, I know, it's terribly unfair & awful to endure regardless...but the fact that you get breaks is really good. 

[Atao]

Thanks so much for your reply bheb. It means a lot.  I feel so low and lonely in this dreadful state. I'm burning from the inside out. I have so much in my life and I can't enjoy any of it. 

 

 

 

[jonnypeters1234567]

How are you now?