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Wildflower0214

Cannabis, marijuana, THC, and CBD or Hemp oil

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Wildflower0214

I was just reading about marijuana and it's possible use in treatment for several diseases. They have apparently approved it to treat PTSD in certain states. It seems safer than benzos, certainly.

 

I wonder what the medical establishment's response to all of this is...?

 

My vote, legalize it. No one is suggesting it is beneficial to smoke oneself into oblivion. But, marijuana does seem to provide some medicinal benefits without many of the dangerous side effects of so many Rx drugs. I'm not saying it is free of risk, but even so, it seems preferable to many drugs currently on the market. If used responsibly in moderation, I see no harm.

 

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

If there is a topic like this somewhere, feel free to move this.

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Wildflower0214

Ok, I just found CW's post about Marijuana WD symptoms...

 

 

Merge if you want. :) Sorry I was late finding the similar topic.

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cymbaltawithdrawal5600

Nah, we can leave it here. Seeing as how someone once told me that mj 'dissolves brain cells' (idk if it does or not) i think its widespread legalization puts us in line for a world of hurt. Hope I have passed on before I am subjected to nursing home care by a 'stonie'.

 

BTW, we don't recommend ANY psychotropic drugs in wd or even after. Once sensitized, probably always so. How lucky do you feel? (said in my best 'Dirty Harry' voice).

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Wildflower0214

Oh no, not suggesting it for WD. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. I wouldn't touch it now. But, if I had a choice ten years ago between the AD and Benzo or marijuana, I would have gone with the marijuana. Unfortunately, that is not a choice I had available to me.

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Rhiannon

LOL I'm pretty sure cannabis doesn't dissolve brain cells. Seems like that would have shown up somewhere in the literature. 

 

Actually, cannabis works kind of like morphine, cannabinoids bond to pre-existing receptors in the brain. In the case of morphine it's endorphins, in the case of cannabis it's endocannabinoids. 

 

I live in one of the states that has had medical cannabis for a long while and has recently legalized recreational use. Before that I lived in a state that legalized medical use while I was living there. Nothing changed, that I could tell, although I wasn't on chemo and didn't know anyone on chemo--I imagine things changed for those folks, in a good way.

 

Cannabis use is pretty common in my world, so I know realistically what it's like and don't have a lot of fears about it (I would definitely always rather be around someone smoking pot than someone drinking! drunks are rude and obnoxious and scary, stoners are just goofy and enthusiastic.)

 

CW I'm pretty sure legalizing pot for people over 21 is not going to mean that suddenly people are going to be stoned at their jobs (nursing homes or anywhere else), any more than alcohol being legal for people over 21 means everyone comes to work drunk. 

 

Problem smokers already exist, it's not that hard to get the stuff. (It's not like being illegal has made it hard to get, it's just made it impossible to control who can get it--the black market doesn't check ID.) Problem drinkers exist too. That doesn't mean everyone who likes a glass of wine with dinner is a problem drinker, and the same is true for pot.  

 

I personally have no problem with it or fears about it, because frankly I don't think it's going to change things much, other than sending fewer kids to prison, which I think is a good thing. 

 

I think it has a lot of excellent medical potential, and that's pretty exciting (especially what's coming out now from the studies on PTSD, which so far nobody has been able to help medically). And they're working on developing strains that are low in THC (the "high" cannabinoid) but higher in CBD and other therapeutic cannibinoids that don't cause a "high." So I think potentially it could be a great boon, medically.

 

But being the cynic I am, I expect that what's going to happen is drug companies will synthesize new, powerful drugs based on cannabinoids, that they can patent and charge lots of money for. Oh well.

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cymbaltawithdrawal5600

Was tongue in cheeks for me anyway, Rhi, but it did set you up for another excellent post. Interesting to find out that it has not resulted in much change in those states as far as the workplace goes. I remember in my early work years 30-40  yrs ago people drinking on the job and smoking dope too. Some things don't change.....

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Wildflower0214

LOL I'm pretty sure cannabis doesn't dissolve brain cells. Seems like that would have shown up somewhere in the literature.

 

Actually, cannabis works kind of like morphine, cannabinoids bond to pre-existing receptors in the brain. In the case of morphine it's endorphins, in the case of cannabis it's endocannabinoids.

 

I live in one of the states that has had medical cannabis for a long while and has recently legalized recreational use. Before that I lived in a state that legalized medical use while I was living there. Nothing changed, that I could tell, although I wasn't on chemo and didn't know anyone on chemo--I imagine things changed for those folks, in a good way.

 

Cannabis use is pretty common in my world, so I know realistically what it's like and don't have a lot of fears about it (I would definitely always rather be around someone smoking pot than someone drinking! drunks are rude and obnoxious and scary, stoners are just goofy and enthusiastic.)

 

CW I'm pretty sure legalizing pot for people over 21 is not going to mean that suddenly people are going to be stoned at their jobs (nursing homes or anywhere else), any more than alcohol being legal for people over 21 means everyone comes to work drunk.

 

Problem smokers already exist, it's not that hard to get the stuff. (It's not like being illegal has made it hard to get, it's just made it impossible to control who can get it--the black market doesn't check ID.) Problem drinkers exist too. That doesn't mean everyone who likes a glass of wine with dinner is a problem drinker, and the same is true for pot.

 

I personally have no problem with it or fears about it, because frankly I don't think it's going to change things much, other than sending fewer kids to prison, which I think is a good thing.

 

I think it has a lot of excellent medical potential, and that's pretty exciting (especially what's coming out now from the studies on PTSD, which so far nobody has been able to help medically). And they're working on developing strains that are low in THC (the "high" cannabinoid) but higher in CBD and other therapeutic cannibinoids that don't cause a "high." So I think potentially it could be a great boon, medically.

 

But being the cynic I am, I expect that what's going to happen is drug companies will synthesize new, powerful drugs based on cannabinoids, that they can patent and charge lots of money for. Oh well.

Agreed. I wish I would have had the option at the time I went on AD. I def would have made a different choice had it been legal.

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Muddles

I have seen many benefit for medicinal purposes. I would much rather be giving my child this instead of all of the drugs this young boy was on:

 

https://fbcdn-video-o-a.akamaihd.net/hvideo-ak-xpa1/v/t42.1790-2/10921093_640482466056837_1314638875_n.mp4?rl=334&vabr=186&oh=516459d25fed4a5e14992befb45175e7&oe=54C45A65&__gda__=1422155806_37e37684efd3397c102d67efea63a953

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Moonlitelotus

I wish it helped withdrawals. I like marijuana. lol. I think it has great medical potential too and I'm glad it is being studied more.

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Rhiannon

I would really like to see what the non-THC cannabinoids can do. I don't want to spend my life high, but if I could get some help for chronic pain and PTSD without being high...well, I'd take a look at it anyway. Although after what I've learned from psych drugs I'm pretty gunshy about doing anything with neurotransmitters.

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Moonlitelotus

Does marijuana significantly effect neurotransmitters?

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Wildflower0214

Does marijuana significantly effect neurotransmitters?

Uhhh...ya! Lol :)

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Moonlitelotus

I just meant what ones I guess and what does it do to them. Lol

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Fresh

Hi Moonlite ,     Dr Lucire writes:  ...it is my experience that the population that has genetic mutations in the cytochrome P450 system...are vulnerable

                                                     to experiencing multiple toxic side effects from taking antidepressants , amphetamines and other drugs.

                                                     Cannabis causes further reduction of metabolizing capacity by inhibiting a major metabolic pathway called 3A4.

 

(from a letter to Mr.Russell Keith , Re Select Committee on Youth Suicides In the Northern Territory ,    28 September 2011).

 

 

Not much research available . . .

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WiggleIt

I hate to burst y'all's bubbles, but weed damages people also. It just takes longer.

 

Although, honestly, these psych meds are the WORST thing I've ever seen, ever. So, weed probably would have been better for everyone here for anxiety.

 

Have I mentioned I hate this world?

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Wildflower0214

I think if used in moderation, it is much much much less dangerous.

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Rhiannon

As far as the actual topic of legalization is concerned, I'm in an interesting place because I live about half an hour from one legal pot store and about twenty minutes from another, and a year from now there will probably be one here in the town where I live. I live on the border of one state that has been legal for a couple of years and another one that just voted to go legal but things haven't really gotten under way yet.

 

It's been really interesting watching Washington go legal. Supply is catching up with demand, there are all kinds of new products being developed. It's really amazing to go into a store and pick up a package that has listed out the percentages of THCA, CBD, four other minor cannabinoids, and three terpenes, whatever those are. That was a really classy package, too, the design and graphics, very professional, would not be out of the way in any of the high priced tourist venues around here. 

 

It is SO fun seeing this historic process, watching this industry develop. The black market's still vigorous, of course, because the legal growers can't compete with their bulk prices. But it's continually changing. 

 

About legalizing, when people talk about it, the strangest thing to me is the people who say "but I don't want teenagers smoking pot." I'm like, what planet are you living on? Do you think the black market asks for ID? Do you seriously think any teenager has any trouble getting pot right now? I think it's probably easier for them to get pot than to get booze. The only hope for making it hard for teenagers to get it is to legalize it, so you can regulate and control it.

 

Anyway, this isn't relevant to where the discussion had gone as far as is it good or bad or whatever, but the whole process of legalizing thing: it's pretty fun to have a front seat, so early on, for such an interesting social/historical development.

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Rhiannon

I just meant what ones I guess and what does it do to them. Lol

 

It's called the endocannabinoid system. There's tons of stuff on the Internet about it. It's similar to how opiates affect us by mimicking our natural endorphins. We have a natural system of cannabinoids in our brains (they call them "endocannabinoids," the ones our brains make that is) and the cannabinoids in cannabis bind to receptors in that system.

 

Needless to say just the words "bind to receptors" make me a little queasy after my fun times with psych drugs.

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WiggleIt

Get ready for your state to suck.

 

I live where it's legal and I hate what it's done to my state's overcrowding, its economy, and cost of living. I agree with the blah, blah, blah reasons for legalization, but hate that it's happening on a state-by-state level.

 

Although... If it gets legalized in ANOTHER state, maybe all the morons will leave my state and go to yours.

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WiggleIt

 

 

I just meant what ones I guess and what does it do to them. Lol

It's called the endocannabinoid system. There's tons of stuff on the Internet about it. It's similar to how opiates affect us by mimicking our natural endorphins. We have a natural system of cannabinoids in our brains (they call them "endocannabinoids," the ones our brains make that is) and the cannabinoids in cannabis bind to receptors in that system.

 

Needless to say just the words "bind to receptors" make me a little queasy after my fun times with psych drugs.

Emphatic agreement.

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Rhiannon

Get ready for your state to suck.

 

I live where it's legal and I hate what it's done to my state's overcrowding, its economy, and cost of living. I agree with the blah, blah, blah reasons for legalization, but hate that it's happening on a state-by-state level.

 

Although... If it gets legalized in ANOTHER state, maybe all the morons will leave my state and go to yours.

 

Yeah, maybe having two more states where it's legal will dilute the attention a bit. And I think California's going to legalize soon too. It's taken Washington longer to get on board than Colorado so y'all really got all the attention.

 

What's weirdest for me about the state by state thing is that everyone's laws are different, but that might be good as far as figuring out how to make it work best I guess.

 

Actually the thing I like best about it being legal is all the people who won't be going to prison. We're one of the most citizen-imprisoning countries in the world. Did you know that the US has more of its population in prison than CHINA for crying out loud? Not per capita, total numbers! Even though China has ten times our population! And they're not exactly big on due process.

 

Then again having people in prison is expensive and of course it's a for-profit business here with the privatized prison system. Speaking of experiments, living in a country that's run by corporations and a few incredibly wealthy individuals--I'm not exactly thrilled with how that's turning out. 

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westcoast

I read on erowid.com that pot and Effexor should not be mixed. This is just based on self-reports of people who tried it. If that is the case, it merits investigation. Seems to me that any psych med could interact with marijuana, and that eventually the patient inserts should say something about that, as they often do regarding alcohol.

 

I have a medical card and use pot to help me sleep. It does help, right before bed. Using it right before bed means it doesn't disrupt the day. I don't notice any diminished capability in the day. When I found some Lunesta a few months ago and started using it, I kept messing up my class work and having to redo things, sometimes twice. It was very obvious I was impaired. It got better when I ran out of the old Lunesta. I won't seek any more, for obvious reasons. It's a psych drug of sorts. Desperate for sleep, I tried it, and it did induce sleep, but not in a useful way for me.

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degen12

In my experimentation with marijuana, it left me in the prodrome phase of schizophrenia. It was progressing at a rapid pace and I'm glad I got out when I did.

 

It is pretty well known that the earlier one starts smoking marijuana, the higher the risk of developing psychosis. I don't think any citation is needed for this.

 

Since keeping marijuana away from teenagers should, in my opinion, be societies primary goal, I will add this:

 

It was much easier to obtain marijuana at my high school than tobacco or alcohol. Everyone knew who sold dope, but getting an adult to buy you alcohol or messing around with fake identification was always more difficult than obtaining marijuana. There were no dealers of alcohol or cigarettes.

 

I believe that marijuana should be legalized, but it should be controlled as well, and not just subject to a free for all. I think that legalization, if done correctly, may actually reduce teen pot use.

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Wildflower0214

I grew up on the beach, and it was probably a bigger part of the culture there than in other areas. But, I never knew anyone having trouble with psychosis per se. If they had smoked entirely too much they may get paranoind for a bit. But, that is the worst case scenario I've ever witnessed.

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Rhiannon

In my experimentation with marijuana, it left me in the prodrome phase of schizophrenia. It was progressing at a rapid pace and I'm glad I got out when I did.

 

It is pretty well known that the earlier one starts smoking marijuana, the higher the risk of developing psychosis. I don't think any citation is needed for this.

 

Well, I'd like a citation, because I've done a bit of reading in the literature and had never heard this before. If it's true, it's something that needs to be explored. 

 

There are a lot of "facts" out there about cannabis that, when you examine the actual "study," turn out to be based on pretty suspect information, usually just a correlation based on a small cohort and never corrected for other factors. Given that I've never heard of this before I suspect it might not be a well-established finding based on reliable studies. If it is I've clearly missed it! and I'd like to know.

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Rhiannon

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degen12

This review is probably the strongest study:

 

Lancet. 2007 Jul 28;370(9584):319-28.

Cannabis use and risk of psychotic or affective mental health outcomes: a systematic review.

Moore TH, Zammit S, Lingford-Hughes A, Barnes TR, Jones PB, Burke M, Lewis G.

 

Abstract at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17662880/

 

"The uncertainty about whether cannabis causes psychosis is unlikely to be resolved by further longitudinal studies such as those reviewed here. However, we conclude that there is now sufficient evidence to warn young people that using cannabis could increase their risk of developing a psychotic illness later in life."

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degen12

http://drthurstone.com/marijuana-psychosis-connection/

 

A great collection of research.

 

Here is her rebuff to the Harvard study:

 

Today, people championing marijuana legalization and generally looking to explain away the potential harms of using this addictive drug are trumpeting research conducted at Harvard University that found no causal link or association between adolescent marijuana use and development of schizophrenia. The preliminary study, published December 2013 in the journal Schizophrenia Research, is titled, “A Controlled Family Study of Cannabis Users With and Without Psychosis.” Its authors are Ashley C. Proal, Jerry Fleming, Juan A. Galvez-Buccollini, Lynn E. DeLisi.

For the purposes of this guide, it is important to note:

  • the main finding is that it’s not cannabis use alone, but, rather, an interplay between use and an underlying genetic vulnerability that may cause schizophrenia. This is consistent with previous research findings.
  • researchers acknowledge the limitations of this study. They compared four groups of research subjects ranging in size from 32 to 87 people. The researchers concede this sample size may not be large enough to detect actual differences. Indeed. For example, one study that found marijuana use was linked to a fourfold risk of developing psychosis involved 45,570 people and followed them for a 15-year period (See “Lancet. 1987 Dec 26;2(8574):1483-6. “Cannabis and schizophrenia. A longitudinal study of Swedish conscripts”.
  • this study is cross-sectional, not longitudinal. Longitudinal research — such as the 1987 study cited above — is needed to prove or disprove causal associations between marijuana use and psychosis and/or schizophrenia.
  • this research does not diminish repeated and widespread findings of strong association between adolescent marijuana use and psychosis. And while psychosis is not necessarily schizophrenia, it would be foolish to believe psychosis isn’t worth worrying about and guarding against.

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westcoast

Longitudinal research can't prove causation. It can only reveal correlations. Only a double-blind true experiment can do so.

 

The problem with correlational pot research, whether it is cross-sectional or longitudinal, is that the people who use it are, in many countries, law-breakers to start with, which means they might already have underlying issues. Second, they may be self-medicating (using pot to feel better), which again can point to underlying issues.

 

And heaven knows how many of them were also on psych meds in the studies we read about. (I have heard that Effexor and pot interact badly, via Erowid.com, a drug users' web forum.)

 

I knew a young woman who routinely acted like a schizophrenic when she smoked pot. I finally decided she actually was schizophrenic, but can't know how she would have turned out without pot. She also took Adderall, the adhd drug which is basically speed. Her dad was a formal bigamist (secret second family) who did time for medical manslaughter, her brother was a burglar, and her sister was dating a heroin dealer. They were all whack jobs! Both parents were medical doctors, for what that's worth.

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degen12

Yes, but due to ethical reasons, these will never be done. Think of tobacco and causation. Although experiments have not been done, no one would now doubt that there is a causal relationship between tobacco smoking and lung cancer, for example.  Of course, the level of correlational research linking cannabis use to psychosis is not nearly so numerous, large, or unanimous in its findings, and there are many variables that are perhaps not yet accounted for, as you point out. 

 

I believe in the precautionary principle and a large review in the Lancet states that, "...there is now sufficient evidence to warn young people that using cannabis could increase their risk of developing a psychotic illness later in life."

 

Cannabis is a psychoactive drug, and deserves respect as any do. I do not believe that developing brains, especially those of a teenager, should be exposed to any psychotropic or psychoactive drug, plant or pharmaceutical, except at great need. I am perhaps biased here due to having been drugged since age 6.

 

Kids will be kids and some will experiment, but I don't doubt that, despite not having rock solid evidence, regular pot use in teenagers who are susceptible, will be causally linked to psychosis. Since it can be construed that all brains are developing, I will add that there are several life stages in which there are bursts of brain development. Several of these occur during our teenage years.

 

I am not making any argument that responsible adults should not be able to partake in recreational pot use.

 

How I wish that more caution was exerted in regards to the approval of many pharmaceutical-grade  psychotropic drugs.

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degen12

Would any of you now support a double-blind placebo-controlled trial, lasting several years, giving an SSRI to healthy teenagers and monitoring them for behavioural and mood changes?

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Rhiannon

 

 

Cannabis is a psychoactive drug, and deserves respect as any do. I do not believe that developing brains, especially those of a teenager, should be exposed to any psychotropic or psychoactive drug, plant or pharmaceutical, except at great need. I am perhaps biased here due to having been drugged since age 6.

 

 

 

I sure wish more people cared about this. I can't believe how many kids are on psych drugs. It's horrible. And we see the aftermath here all the time.

 

And of course nobody wants teenagers to use cannabis either! I just wish it were easier to persuade the kids themselves. At that age it's so hard to get them to care about their developing brains. 

 

Hopefully with legalization the black market will eventually become less profitable and less ubiquitous, and you'll have a situation like with alcohol and cigarettes, where kids will have to find someone with ID to buy it for them if they want it. At least that makes a slightly higher barrier than what we have now, which is pretty much nothing.

 

Don't know what to do about the psychiatrists, though. It's crazy to me that they don't even think about what a drug that perturbs neurochemistry is likely to do to a brain that's still developing. That's absolutely insane.

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Rhiannon

Also, maybe with legalization we'll be able to explore some of the gray areas between "it's all good" and "it's the devil."

 

Right now it's hard to find any legalization advocates who are willing to admit there may be drawbacks to cannabis use, or any legalization opponents who are willing to admit there could be benefits from it.  Like everything in actual reality, it's probably a mix of good and bad, just like alcohol I suppose, or chocolate for that matter; and the more that people can be informed about the pros and cons and make informed decisions, the better off we'll all be. 

 

The vast majority of people who use alcohol do so sensibly and responsibly, at least from what I see looking around me. Hopefully we'll get to the same place with cannabis eventually.

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degen12

I agree. Fear-mongering actually made things worse, at least at my school. After a school seminar in which horror stories were told of what would happen if you smoked weed, some kids uh.. paradoxically became more curious about the substance and began to experiment for the first time :ph34r: . Even I couldn't believe it could be as bad as that.

 

I also hope with legal sales one would be able to chose a strain that has the THC and CBD %, and subjective qualities that meets their individual needs.

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Ibid

This article (link below) appeared this morning on Alternet. It maintains that CBD (which doesn't get you high) and other cannabinoids aid neurogenesis and therefore may have many disease-fighting benefits, among them to combat and protect against--(and maybe aid in recovery from?)--depression. The links are pretty good. It notes other significant, positive effects as well. As many of you point out, of course, there are probably negative effects as well. More and better research please!

 

http://www.alternet.org/drugs/pot-could-save-your-life-4-ways-cannabis-good-your-brain?akid=12796.1914329.Ewqi8l&rd=1&src=newsletter1031917&t=7

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