Older female issues: perimenopause, menopause, and withdrawal

[scallywag]

Because there are many interactions between them, the central nervous system, the endocrine system and the immune system could be considered parts of a larger super-system. 

 

Endogeneous hormones change levels throughout the menstrual cycle and affect energy and mood. Decreases in the same during perimenopause also affect energy and mood (CNS). Taking female hormones or changing dosage (endocrine pharmaceuticals) affects the CNS. It makes sense that taking CNS medication or changing dosage affects the endocrine system.

[Junglechicken]

Apparently, (and this is something my homeopath told me), GPs don't acknowledge that peri-meno actually takes place, and won't test for it.

 

I encountered this last year, as my GP wouldn't do any tests when I asked to have my hormones tested.

 

Just before and during my TOTM, I will feel intensely hot in bed, (like I am burning up) or sometimes during the day. I guess these are hot flashes??

[O2bhappy]

While on Prozac I would have one hot flash at night and that was it.  Three months after coming off Prozac my hot flashes and night sweats increased.  I can have several hot flashes an hour.  It is awful.  I get a weird feeling right before the hot flash.  I also get the same thing before a crying spell.  I can feel it coming on and I start crying. 

[Prestorb]

This is an old topic but I'm just curious if anyone else is dealing with hormonal issues. I am perimenopausal I guess but almost 49 so getting very close to menopause. A year ago - while I was still on 10 mg of Paxil - I got started on bioidentical estrogen and progesterone. I've been completely off Paxil now - 4 months out. I'm still not sure that the hormones have helped me at all and am not at all convinced that they aren't making matters worse. My inclination is to gradually wean off of them because frankly, I just don't trust them after everything I've been through with SSRIs. I wish I had never gotten started because I know I will experience some withdrawal. I was desperate at the time with anxiety and insomnia (probably more from the Paxil than my hormones). Just wondering if anyone else here has recent experience with the "bioidentical hormones" and getting off of them?

[MaryDavid]

At times it seems I'm going absolutely nuts! The thoughts, the rage, the anger, the outbursts, the insecurity, the loss of hope. It's unbelievable mental torture and torment.

 

If your experiencing this, your not alone.

[Vonnegutjunky]

I was in peri menopause when my medication issues started- now I can’t tell wether  these waves are from the medication or hormones  I feel like I’m losing my mind ever 2.5 weeks!!! 

[Vonnegutjunky]

Reviving this post - 

 

I believe after I updosed, the Paxil began poisoning me, I think  this because my liver enzymes were elevated, and I think that was because of a lack of cyp2d6 due to the Paxil - so I was no longer metabolizing it correctly and it was causing an overdose , that’s the only thing I can think of for it to have created such an intense reaction the day after I updosed. 

 

during the time of my updose I was at the beginning of perimenopause- I am now getting to my actual menopause as I have about 2 periods per year 

 

anyway the 20mg updose affected me very negatively, now that I am down to 8 mg I feel much better HOWEVER, I still get the same waves I felt when I was at 20mg - I get them less intense, but I can’t seem to go more then 3 weeks without getting one - and they always last the same amount of time, about 10-14 days on average 

 

I don’t know if this is menopause or the med still not correctly metabolizing? 

 

For some reason, not knowing what it is really bothers me- and my symptoms are so unexplainable- the only way to describe it is that I just don’t feel right - and I mean on a level where I really get moments like I am losing my mind. I get anxious for sure, but during windows I feel completely normal, and those also last about 15-18 days on average -

 

and what’s so crazy is I can feel the days in between, it’s defintely not one day I feel good the next I feel bad, I have what I call my transition days, I can feel a wave coming on and easing up, and it takes a few days going from window to wave. It’s not like a switch. 

 

i dont have physicsl symptoms, and even as I decreased the med from 20 to 8, I never had one withdrawal symptom (I believe it’s because I have too much of the med in my system) 

 

I am going to try to find a doctor who will do hormone testing, my GP said they don’t have tests that will tell anything- and she just starts you on hormones to see if they help - 

 

cant I just try otc supplements then? 

Does anyone know? 

 

Does anyone think my waves are hormonal or do they sound more like medication related? 

 

Thanks for any insight 

 

 

[MaryDavid]

On 03/11/2017 at 4:59 AM, Vonnegutjunky said:

Reviving this post - 

 

I believe after I updosed, the Paxil began poisoning me, I think  this because my liver enzymes were elevated, and I think that was because of a lack of cyp2d6 due to the Paxil - so I was no longer metabolizing it correctly and it was causing an overdose , that’s the only thing I can think of for it to have created such an intense reaction the day after I updosed. 

 

during the time of my updose I was at the beginning of perimenopause- I am now getting to my actual menopause as I have about 2 periods per year 

 

anyway the 20mg updose affected me very negatively, now that I am down to 8 mg I feel much better HOWEVER, I still get the same waves I felt when I was at 20mg - I get them less intense, but I can’t seem to go more then 3 weeks without getting one - and they always last the same amount of time, about 10-14 days on average 

 

I don’t know if this is menopause or the med still not correctly metabolizing? 

 

For some reason, not knowing what it is really bothers me- and my symptoms are so unexplainable- the only way to describe it is that I just don’t feel right - and I mean on a level where I really get moments like I am losing my mind. I get anxious for sure, but during windows I feel completely normal, and those also last about 15-18 days on average -

 

and what’s so crazy is I can feel the days in between, it’s defintely not one day I feel good the next I feel bad, I have what I call my transition days, I can feel a wave coming on and easing up, and it takes a few days going from window to wave. It’s not like a switch. 

 

i dont have physicsl symptoms, and even as I decreased the med from 20 to 8, I never had one withdrawal symptom (I believe it’s because I have too much of the med in my system) 

 

I am going to try to find a doctor who will do hormone testing, my GP said they don’t have tests that will tell anything- and she just starts you on hormones to see if they help - 

 

cant I just try otc supplements then? 

Does anyone know? 

 

Does anyone think my waves are hormonal or do they sound more like medication related? 

 

Thanks for any insight 

 

 

Hi Vonnie

 

Im so sorry to hear about symptoms.  I can relate.  Unfortunately, i am still looking for answers too. Im 45. 

 

Peri-menopause/menopause (I call it horrorpause) is just so unfair really.  

[Vonnegutjunky]

 

Mary - can you tell the difference between menopause and withdrawal symptoms? 

[Junglechicken]

4 hours ago, Vonnegutjunky said:

 

Mary - can you tell the difference between menopause and withdrawal symptoms? 

 

 

I was wondering that too!

[MaryDavid]

On 04/12/2017 at 6:01 PM, Junglechicken said:

 

 

I was wondering that too!

 

On 04/12/2017 at 1:20 PM, Vonnegutjunky said:

 

Mary - can you tell the difference between menopause and withdrawal symptoms? 

 

So im going to breakdown what i go through and whether i believe its withdrawal or peri-menopause(horrorpause) or both.

 

This is based on the fact that in recent years i started noticing some changes in me especially before my period which i beleive are peri-menopause symptoms.

 

*************************

 

-Overwhelming insecurity which intensifies 1 week before, during and after period - both withdrawal & peri-menopause

-Impatience - peri-menopause (I was normally patient and noticed whilst i was still on medication, my impatience closer to my period)

-Rage - peri-menopause (rage is so so so embarrassing)

-Irritable, intense anger - peri-menopause

-Not wanting to do things and engage with people - both withdrawal & peri-menopause

-Feeling like i cannot think straight or think beyond my daily routine - both withdrawal & peri-menopause 

-Overwhelmed doing housework/shopping - peri-menopause

-Not knowing whether my perception is clear or distorted - both withdrawal & peri-menopause

-Tearful - both withdrawal & peri-menopause

-Avoiding intense people - peri-menopause (as i feel too overwhelmed to deal with too much)

-Mood changes - both withdrawal & peri-menopause 

 

Im not sure if this will help, i hope it will though...It occured to me just then, as im looking at the symptoms, they are mostly negative...like rage, irritability etc...honestly, its just not fair..lol

 

 

[Junglechicken]

13 hours ago, MaryDavid said:

 

 

So im going to breakdown what i go through and whether i believe its withdrawal or peri-menopause(horrorpause) or both.

 

This is based on the fact that in recent years i started noticing some changes in me especially before my period which i beleive are peri-menopause symptoms.

 

*************************

 

-Overwhelming insecurity which intensifies 1 week before, during and after period - both withdrawal & peri-menopause

-Impatience - peri-menopause (I was normally patient and noticed whilst i was still on medication, my impatience closer to my period)

-Rage - peri-menopause (rage is so so so embarrassing)

-Irritable, intense anger - peri-menopause

-Not wanting to do things and engage with people - both withdrawal & peri-menopause

-Feeling like i cannot think straight or think beyond my daily routine - both withdrawal & peri-menopause 

-Overwhelmed doing housework/shopping - peri-menopause

-Not knowing whether my perception is clear or distorted - both withdrawal & peri-menopause

-Tearful - both withdrawal & peri-menopause

-Avoiding intense people - peri-menopause (as i feel too overwhelmed to deal with too much)

-Mood changes - both withdrawal & peri-menopause 

 

Im not sure if this will help, i hope it will though...It occured to me just then, as im looking at the symptoms, they are mostly negative...like rage, irritability etc...honestly, its just not fair..lol

 

 

 

Thanks Mary, what about physical symptoms?

 

[Junglechicken]

Hi Ladies,

 

Here are a couple of brilliant websites with lots of useful information on Peri-meno/Menopause symptoms:

 

https://patient.info/forums/discuss/66-peri-menopause-menopause-symptoms-you-may-experience-which-may-help-some-ladies-271903

 

https://www.saga.co.uk/magazine/health-wellbeing/conditions/menopause/perimenopause-symptoms-and-treatments

 

I note there is a similarity between WD and peri-meno symptoms.  Very hard to tell which is which?

 

Probably because hormonal fluctuations affect the CNS too.

 

JC

[MaryDavid]

On 07/12/2017 at 9:41 AM, Junglechicken said:

 

Thanks Mary, what about physical symptoms?

 

Hi Junglechicken, physical symptoms are mainly feeling so tired and sleepy.

[MaryDavid]

On 23/12/2017 at 9:11 PM, Junglechicken said:

Hi Ladies,

 

Here are a couple of brilliant websites with lots of useful information on Peri-meno/Menopause symptoms:

 

https://patient.info/forums/discuss/66-peri-menopause-menopause-symptoms-you-may-experience-which-may-help-some-ladies-271903

 

https://www.saga.co.uk/magazine/health-wellbeing/conditions/menopause/perimenopause-symptoms-and-treatments

 

I note there is a similarity between WD and peri-meno symptoms.  Very hard to tell which is which?

 

Probably because hormonal fluctuations affect the CNS too.

 

JC

 

Thanks JC! Going to have a read.

[FarmGirlWorks]

Thanks, JungleChicken. As a 51-yo who is 9 months in WD, the symptoms are hard to separate. I just figure whatever it is, this is the way I feel. Fortunately, I don't have too many perimenopausal symptoms at present.

[Tootsieroll]

HELP!! I need urgent advice!! i have been to ER and they can do nothing to help me but give me clotting meds that don’t help and I gush once effect is gone.  Been to my gyno and may be in worse shape now.  Now I turn to this board because our bodies are damaged by this experience.  

 

On the verge of panicking.  I woke up sweating and so hot!!!! I am on natural progesterone (prometrium) cause ive been bleeding since June 26th.. im sooooo done with this.  It isn’t workingg!!!  How do I get progesterone out of my system??? Will it leave on its own??  will go back to the old trusted birth control for just a month to stop bleeding after this hot flash mess is over!!!  I dont want to take birth control for even a day but will just do it to stop the bleeding first.  i THINK I did well on Alesse last time I had this same issue 4 years ago right at the start of withdrawals.  I stress ‘think’ because I don’t remember if it was that that helped or if I ended up having a d&c ablation.  No D&C this time cause my lining isnt thick and no polyp.

I was fine at 100mg Prometrium at night and blood became a brown colour but moved my way up to 300mg cause it was told to move to 400mg to fully stop bleeding...maybe 300mg was too much and should have stayed at 100mg??  Even if I wanted to go back to 100mg,  is there too much progesterone in me now?? Is there now TOO much progesterone causing me to bleed again like i have a period within that other bleeding? Should I stay off a few days before going back on?  My only worry is the bleeding gushing again full force.  Would a low dose birth control be a better choice?  My worry is that it is synthetic while prometrium is natural.

[ChessieCat]

I'm sorry to hear that you are experiencing these issues.  However, being a WD site for ADs I doubt that there is anyone here that is able to answer your question, unless they have experienced something similar.

 

I suggest you search for an online forum or facebook group which may be able to assist.

[Junglechicken]

22 hours ago, Tootsieroll said:

HELP!! I need urgent advice!! i have been to ER and they can do nothing to help me but give me clotting meds that don’t help and I gush once effect is gone.  Been to my gyno and may be in worse shape now.  Now I turn to this board because our bodies are damaged by this experience.  

 

On the verge of panicking.  I woke up sweating and so hot!!!! I am on natural progesterone (prometrium) cause ive been bleeding since June 26th.. im sooooo done with this.  It isn’t workingg!!!  How do I get progesterone out of my system??? Will it leave on its own??  will go back to the old trusted birth control for just a month to stop bleeding after this hot flash mess is over!!!  I dont want to take birth control for even a day but will just do it to stop the bleeding first.  i THINK I did well on Alesse last time I had this same issue 4 years ago right at the start of withdrawals.  I stress ‘think’ because I don’t remember if it was that that helped or if I ended up having a d&c ablation.  No D&C this time cause my lining isnt thick and no polyp.

I was fine at 100mg Prometrium at night and blood became a brown colour but moved my way up to 300mg cause it was told to move to 400mg to fully stop bleeding...maybe 300mg was too much and should have stayed at 100mg??  Even if I wanted to go back to 100mg,  is there too much progesterone in me now?? Is there now TOO much progesterone causing me to bleed again like i have a period within that other bleeding? Should I stay off a few days before going back on?  My only worry is the bleeding gushing again full force.  Would a low dose birth control be a better choice?  My worry is that it is synthetic while prometrium is natural.

 

Hi Tootsie,

 

There is a forum for women going through peri-Meno and menopause called "66 Peri-menopause and menopause symptoms".

 

Its really helpful, and someone will have gone through what you're going through at some point.

 

JC

[Tootsieroll]

Thanks guy for directing me in the right direction.  I'm not menopausal but I will definitely check out the forum right away.  It's just so sad how much my body has taken a hit ever since withdrawals.

[Tootsieroll]

On 7/27/2018 at 8:56 AM, Junglechicken said:

 

Hi Tootsie,

 

There is a forum for women going through peri-Meno and menopause called "66 Peri-menopause and menopause symptoms".

 

Its really helpful, and someone will have gone through what you're going through at some point.

 

JC

JC- is this the forum you were speaking of?

 

https://patient.info/forums/discuss/66-peri-menopause-menopause-symptoms-you-may-experience-which-may-help-some-ladies-271903?page=1

 

[Junglechicken]

On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:50 AM, Tootsieroll said:

JC- is this the forum you were speaking of?

 

https://patient.info/forums/discuss/66-peri-menopause-menopause-symptoms-you-may-experience-which-may-help-some-ladies-271903?page=1

 

 

Yes it is!

[Tootsieroll]

Thankx jungle chicken.  Wow this cannot get any worse.  My gyno prescribed a high dose of birth control to stop that bleeding after that progesterone fiasco.  This is working to slow it down but by god am I nauseous.  I will need to stick with it for a week at least.  Anyone know how long Gravol takes to kick in and will the dizziness and tiredness go away if I continue taking.  I can't keep my eyes open at just one gravol.

[thecowisback]

is anyone else on here going through the menopause? i'm in peri-menopause right now and keep asking myself how much of my symptoms are down to withdrawal and how much is down to changing hormones? i knew little about the menopause until the last few months when my gp said i must be going through it and that was what was causing my anxiety and depression. i was promptly offered antidepressants to cope which i refused. 

i know there's no way of knowing for sure which is causing the problems. it's probably both. 

 

[thecowisback]

now my post has been merged with this thread i can see this is a common question. i wonder if i'd been going through peri-menopause for quite some time and the prozac was masking it. i knew nothing about the menopause apart from jokes about hot flushes and women getting irrationally angry. i wish people talked about it more as i really was ignorant about the whole thing and thought your periods stopped one day, you had hot flushes for a while then just carried on as normal. my doctor tried me on hrt patches but after one day i binned them - they gave me a violent headache and back to back hot flushes all day. 

 

[BloombieK]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 1:11 PM, Junglechicken said:

Hi Ladies,

 

Here are a couple of brilliant websites with lots of useful information on Peri-meno/Menopause symptoms:

 

https://patient.info/forums/discuss/66-peri-menopause-menopause-symptoms-you-may-experience-which-may-help-some-ladies-271903

 

https://www.saga.co.uk/magazine/health-wellbeing/conditions/menopause/perimenopause-symptoms-and-treatments

 

I note there is a similarity between WD and peri-meno symptoms.  Very hard to tell which is which?

 

Probably because hormonal fluctuations affect the CNS too.

 

JC

Hi JC,

 

Thank you for this information.  It's very, very helpful to make sense of what I'm going through although it's hard to tell if it is WD or perimenopause.   I have suffered PMS for many years and WD has been a real challenge just because of it.  PMS has limited my tapering rate to 2% each month.  I am 42 and when I've talked about the possibility of being in perimenopause my relatives say "oh, you're too young!", but reading the list of symptoms, it makes sense. I find myself dealing with about 20 symptoms cited, some more intense and frequent than others.  The list is soo similar to WD that it is hard to tell which is which but learning about this makes me happy because I have more reasons to understand better myself.

[Junglechicken]

Hi Bloombie,

 

Glad these are of use to you.

 

if there is one phrase I get fed up with hearing from doctors etc., it's "you're too young".

 

i think it's because they only acknowledge the menopause, and not the decade preceding it (peri-meno).

 

Unfortunately FSH tests don't provide an accurate enough picture of how far along the person is nearing the menopause, and so it's down to number of missed periods, and eventually none at all in a year.

 

im 44 next month.

 

JC

[FarmGirlWorks]

On 4/3/2011 at 9:48 AM, Altostrata said:

Finally, in desperation when I lost the ability to sleep, after I had stopped using either DHEA and progesterone for quite a long while, I got a mini-estrogen patch (Menostar), which delivers .14mcg estrogen per day. This did calm me a bit. I am still using it.

Hi @Altostrata: I have missed my first period, am 51, and think I am entering pre-menopause. I seem to run hotter than I did before, do not have night sweats but am really hot and seem to sleep fitfully instead of straight through. And today I am not feeling akasthisa but feel like I want to cry and am anxious. Anyways, was wondering if the patch you used was during pre-menopause or after you were a year after cycles. WD and menopause at the same time -- wham!

[Junglechicken]

4 hours ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

Hi @Altostrata: I have missed my first period, am 51, and think I am entering pre-menopause. I seem to run hotter than I did before, do not have night sweats but am really hot and seem to sleep fitfully instead of straight through. And today I am not feeling akasthisa but feel like I want to cry and am anxious. Anyways, was wondering if the patch you used was during pre-menopause or after you were a year after cycles. WD and menopause at the same time -- wham!

 

"WD and menopause at the same time -- wham!".

 

Yup, I know this, accept all doctors do is deny that this is possible, and say "You're too young", and that I can't possibly be in WD.

 

Sick and tired of it.

[Colonial]

 

Being a DES Baby, being in Active Peri Menopause when Your brain hormones are fluctuating  during Active Withdrawal is a topic I thought worth discussing with a wider audience than just those who read My personal thread.

Any Moderator please remove or move to a more appropriate topic thread.

Thank You!

 

I find -surmise, with these meds, there's a percentage your body can tolerate per drop, another tolerance level your body can tolerate in any 3 months, 6 months and 1 year period.  Eventually, you just have to slow down and not make any drops for a rest period.  I do it in the Autumn since its the time of year You brain is compromised to begin with.  I make no med changes for 3 months, and that allows everything to settle and keeps my over all numbers, percentage wise, lower towards my yearly total.  I find I make better "progress", in the sense of less symptoms, from March to August of the years.

 

That being said, I don't know if I accidentally screwed myself with too big a % drop in a short period, or if I'm now dealing with Perimenopausal symptoms exacerbating and-or bringing back withdrawal symptoms, like what happens to women who, even if not currently making cuts, can have their symptoms come back during PMS or, for some of us like Me, about 5 days AFTER the beginning after the cycle....

 

Suffice it to say, I think Menopausal- Hormonal fluxes are a HUGE " undiagnosed -under  investigated- thought about-" concern in determining what symptoms are from what issue, and how that should affect a taper......

 

So let's recap and think this through...

 

My last post was the bad anxiety and jolts of cortisol waking me up early started beginning of May..

I had been on 0.8 mg from 12/24/18 for 3 months until 3/24/19, when I dropped to 0.64...

Now I suppose in theory, that even after a full 3 months at 0.8 that would be a high enough percentage drop of 20%  to kick me off with the cortisol...

Especially since I had the other bad event in January after dropping... 33%...

But other than that not much else...

So, taking that into consideration that maybe 20% was still too large, I  then  started making smaller cuts, only 1 line on the syringe equaling 0.08 mgs.  That worked out to be:

4/22/19  down to 0.56 mg, 12.5%

5/24/19  down to 0.48 mg, 14.3 %

7/7/19    down to 0.40 mg, 16.7 %

8/4/19    down to 0.32 mg,  20%

 

I noticed somewhere around July the anxiety getting much worse in the afternoons, but It was coinciding with what I "think" are Peri menopausal symptoms, constantly cold all the time, and then some hot flashes ( more on that to come).

So, it's been since 8/4 since I has a drop, and the anxiety has been bad and aggravated in the afternoon by caffeine and eating carbs.  Again, I've been better, but I've also been worse.

 

Fast forward to Sunday afternoon, feeling very anxious and shaky, teeth shattering cold, numb, etc...

Went to bed, slept 3.5 hours, woke up in a jolt of panic, took one .25mg xanax, fell back to sleep about 90 minutes later...

Slept about 3 more hours and Woke up about 9:45 am in the worst dissociative panic attack I've had in quite sometime...

 

It was so bad I was vomiting in the toilet and I'm looking at my 2 hands, and it looked like they were switched, that my right hand was on my left arm and vice versa...

And then... I started smelling colors and tasting numbers again... And I realized this was no "Normal" panic attack, it's the kind I never had "Until" I started the drug withdrawals...

Yes, I remember now, every "Neurological Autumn" the past 3 years (August to October)- the colors and numbers bit for me, and smelling things that aren't there... thank you Wellbutrin and Glaxo Smith Kline...)

So...We are obviously off to the doctor...

But before we get to the doctors visit, let Me fill in about the Menopause- issues- connection.

 

End Part 1

 

Part 2: Peri Menopause Muddies the water

 

Now, up until then, I thought a lot of it had to do with the normal Peri menapause symptoms I've been having since about December...

 

And in retrospect, how much of my withdrawal was "complicated" by being peri menopausal now since October of 2016, who's to guess?

I suppose that's why we keep these logs to go back after the fact and piece things together.

My last normal cycle was age 47 early Sept 2016, then had one in December 2016, March 2017, April 2017 June 2017, July 2017,. So that was 6 in 12 months from Sept of 2016 to August 2017.

 

From Sept 2017 until November of 2018,  (age 48-49), I had 5 cycles in those 15 months:

Oct of 2017, and Jan, May August and November of 2018.

And that was the last, 9 months ago, November 25th. Age 49.  I turned 50 in the late Winter of this year.

 

Now I really can't say anything definitive during that time pops out at Me as Hormonal related, except the problem is MANY symptoms are identical to withdrawal:

Difficulty concentrating and thinking,  insomnia, INCREASED ANXIETY, for instance, all menopausal symptoms, so who's to say when I hit a bump in the road what was what, or if I only had that bump because BOTH Were present?

 

Looking back, I can say I started having what I would define as Menopause induced issues in December 2018, right after my last cycle:

I have had the "chills" most of the past 9 months, and that is extremely unusual for Me, never been a usual withdrawal symptom. I remember asking myself why am I so cold this winter?

I have hardly had the air conditioner on this summer, normally if it hits 72 I have it on....

(As I type, it's 76 degrees in this bedroom in August at 2:11 pm, and I'm under a blanket...So something is up, for about 9 months straight, so...)

 

It was also about that time I started having skin issues, strange rashes on and of, which, not a usual symptom, can happen.

The Insomnia anxiety uptick started in tandem in May, 5 months AFTER the temperature deregulation issue began in December.

In July we added the difficulty thinking and making complex decisions, like following complex instructions to put something together, and more chronic fatigue, 2 more symptoms that could be under either camp.

BUT, I do have to say, that there is just something a bit DIFFERENT on how the anxiety, difficulty thinking and fatigue has "Manifested" itself in the past few months as it's presented itself after the temperature deregulation started.

While I have had them before in withdrawal, their just, NOT quite the same as they were when they were definitively withdrawal related. 

 

My theory is, if they are hormonal induced, they manifest in a slightly different manner than if they were withdrawal induced.

And if your Withdrawing at the same time?  Who knows how they will manifest.

In the beginning of this month, I also started with the "Hot flashes".   Again, not ever a symptom for Me before, and classic Menopause symptom of temperature deregulation.

In the past week before yesterdays "Episode", I was going from hot to cold and back again, sometimes withing a mere FIVE MINUTES...

End Part 2...

 

Part 3: Off to the Doctor...

 

(Let's start off by saying it's now only 2:33pm, a mere 22 minutes since I typed I was freezing to death under the blanket, and now I'm sweating to death looking for the air remote... (NOT a withdrawal symptom..)

 

Now, I know sticking up for the Doctors is NOT popular around here...

I know we have an entire thread dedicated to "The Stupidest thing a Doctor has ever said", and I surmise what He said yesterday is probably going to be "cut and pasted" by someone and end up on it...

But I would just like to remind everyone who ends up at the doctors for a med induced psych crisis, that your doctor, at that point...

NEITHER a trained Emergency room doctor OR A Psychologist, is now, presented with what looks like a "psych emergency" out of no where...

He is now in JUST AS MUCH CRISIS AS YOU ARE...

And is just as prone with His adrenaline up to say something that in retrospect, sounds a bit off or stupid....

It's the nature of what it means for ANY of us to be in crisis at a moments notice, and Doctors aren't exempt..

 

Now, that is NOT an excuse for them to not know more about these drugs and their effects and the entire withdrawal "MYTHOLOGY" as it's presented to them....

Many of then understand it IS med related and not in your head, they just honestly have NO IDEA any more than the janitor what to do about it....

And now He's gone from a normal day...

To a woman crying, (wrapped up under a blanket in a 75 degree office in August) not sleeping, panic attacks, disassociating body parts, smelling colors and tasting numbers...

 

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND that at SOME POINT in the next 30 minutes, now that His "Emergency Protocol Checklist" is going off in His head...

And His adrenaline is now up in a crisis, with all the things He has to decipher, like:

"Is She safe to walk out of this office?  If I change Her meds and let Her walk out will either she commit suicide or kill somebody else?  Ect..

YOU HAVE TO EXPECT that at some point in the next adrenaline charged 30 minutes, He's PROBABLY going to say...SOMETHING....

That in retrospect, might seem like the Stupidest Idea a man with a medical licensee could think of...

 

But You have to realize like anyone else, at this point, He's going to be doing what any of us do in a crisis:

"We think out loud" before we actually "reflect" on whether what we're thinking is actually a smart thing to say"...

But because He's the Doctor, He's the one more liable to get slammed down for it than us...

 

Now, to some extent, YES... You as the doctor really do have to watch what you say before you think it out loud....

But to me?  That's a sign that the medical establishment is not properly TRAINING general physicians in how to act in a moments notice in what "appears" to be a med induced psych crisis"...

In the art of being careful of thinking about what you actually "say" before it comes out of Your mouth...

 

But I digress...

(My God, it's 2:59 pm and its FREEZING in here! Who in God's name has the air conditioning on?  Was what Me?  Where is my blanket?)...

That's literally how fast I go from hot to cold.... 20-30 minutes...again... never a withdrawal symptom that I remember...

 

Ok, so, fast forward through I tell Him a condensed version of all this...

He says, "is it possible your anxiety is getting worse because your coming off the Paxil? I keep telling you I think this is related".

Now, that is a very plausible thing to say, because Paxil IS used for General Anxiety Disorder, and a very real question is:  "is this withdrawal, or the Original condition coming back"?

 

So, in My semi delirious state, I THINK I mentioned that I don't think it's from coming OFF the Paxil, since anything I've ever read about Paxil indicates you need AT LEAST 10 mgs to do any good for anxiety...

So, let's say, for arguments sake, that "maybe" it still did "some" good at 6 mgs a day, I haven't been on 6 mgs since APRIL OF 2017.... A FULL 2 YEARS AND 4 MONTHS AGO....

And if it was an "original condition" re emerging... I think it would have happened long before now that I'm in the 3rd year of peri Menopause...

 

So... I let that sink in... And it was the next question out of His mouth... that's going to end Him up on that "Stupidest quote" page...

He's says...(God Love Him...)

" WELL WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT JUST STOPPING IT COLD TURKEY ALL TOGETHER?"

 

And it just... It literally just took my breath away....

You know that moment you must be sure your on Candid Camera or something?

And I looked at Him, and I did NOT say anything, but all I could think was:

 "Are you the same man who has seem me suffer at almost EVER MED DROP" for the past 5 years and knows what that can do to drop too much too soon"?

And not knowing at this point of crisis whether to laugh, cry, or smack Him, I calmly replied:

 "I don't see in what potential universe that could possibly be considered a wise decision.  Would You like to explain your Logic?"

 

Now, as He did, I can see where He was going. He was viewing, considering, conjecturing, that the Paxil was a possible "Poison" in my system that I was "reacting to", and the sooner it's out of my system the better.!

WELL, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, NOW WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE!

 

Only taken Me almost 6 FEW YEARS of withdrawal misery to get Him to ADMIT....

THAT PAXIL......... IS A POISON!

(Glory Hallelujah! Baby steps, people... Baby steps...)

 

Ok, so, all is forgiven at this point, because now at least  I can see what he's "conjecturing",...

Is it better just to stop it cold turkey and deal with whatever happens and at least get the TOXIN out of my system completely... or continue on with this seemingly endless cycle of med cuts.?

Now, granted, He should have "explained" this before just going off and saying something so ridiculous and disheartening... but...

Considering everything I said above about the stress they are under at a moments notice, I at least understand how it happened...

 

(My God, it's 3;24 PM, It's hot as hell in here!  Who turned the air off?  Was that Me? At 2:59pm?  My God, where is that remote...I'm gonna pass out from the heat... one moment...)

 

Ok, so... I respond, and I think quite logically, that "If" this was some sort of allergic reaction to the 'POISON OF PAXIL" (HIS WORDS not mine...),

That I think I would have manifested in the 25 years I was on it... Not during the withdrawal phase which is known to be notorious.

And a shout out to Our own "BrassMonkey" Here, as I told Him that one of the "Paxil Withdrawal Experts" on the website who has hundreds if not thousands of hours at this point dealing with Paxil withdrawal cases...

Has remarked He has seen an increase in nasty symptoms BELOW (I think) the 1.5 mg mark...

If my 1.5 is wrong please someone correct Me, but I explained to Him that this isn't uncommon, and the last few milligrams can be the "hardest" to ween out of the brain, symptom wise...

 

So, long story short, we temporarily increased the xanax and lowered the muscle relaxant, to kind of offset not having too many system depressants in the system at once, and stick with which is more necessary at this moment..

I did eventually fall asleep last night for 3 hours, than jolted up again, took a "double" xanax (.5mg) and fell back to sleep about an hour later...

Only to be woken up about 2.5 hours later by the dog upstairs barking at the skateboarder...

This is my main problem, I can't fall asleep early enough, so that after I'm jolted up for 2 hours before I can get back to sleep, I'm able to sleep as long as my body "would" let me if I wasn't being jolted awake in a panic from neighborhood noise.

 

End Part 3

 

Part 4: DES Babies and Wrap up...

 

So today has not been as bad as yesterday...(hold on one moment I need my blanket, It's freezing in here...)

Still, obviously, and, a bit humorously, (hopefully) dealing with major temp deregulation and flu like symptoms, difficulty thinking, but the anxiety isn't so bad today, that's a little mercy...

Now, looking over my chart today, i did notice that while I did decrease the AMOUNT of drop, I did increase how often I was dropping, to the extent that the "cumulative total" was....

Accidentally, but probably excessive

I think I dropped 50% of my "current dose" in, what?  Only 4 months and 11 days?...

3/24/19 0.64 mg,    4/22/19 0.56 mg,     5/24/19 0.48 mg,    7/7/19 0.40 mgs,   8/4/19 0.32mgs,

 

In retrospect, that was probably insane...

But not having symptoms after the 20% drop, I thought the smaller drops of 12.5% and 14.30% were ok....

And they probably WOULD have been... If I had still been leaving 2 months in between drops like I had been instead of only 1...

 

This is how I came up with the original quote today at the beginning of this thesis....

I really think there's a cumulative amount Your body can drop at any stage along the way, per drop, 3 months, 6 months, one year...

And regardless what You may be able to tolerate in any one drop, or any one 3 month period...eventually, you need to slow down to a "year End" percentage bench mark...

 

I think if You look at all those who have finally finished major tapers of these harder drugs...

That no matter how fast or furious they started out of the gate...

At the end...

I wouldn't be surprised if they all fall within the 5 to 6 year mark...

 

So how much of this latest episode is withdrawal on its own or how much did the Menopause symptoms contribute to yesterday morning's festivities?

I have no idea...

But I also have to add that I was a DES Baby, which accounts for my infertility and my Stage 4 Thyroid Cancer at such an early age...

How much the DES debacle does or doesn't affect menopause issues per say seems to be a hard thing to find out about...

And what effect that might also play into withdrawal, having been subjected to large amounts of hormones "In Utero", who can say?

 

With DES now a memory, I'm sure most of the Medical world might not consider it worth looking into....

And while I'm sure the percentage of female DES Babies who are in "active" withdrawal during peri menopause and menopause proper may seem small to the over all percentage of cases here...

We do have to remember that the MALE DES Babies are also an entirely large and usually forgotten percentage of Our population who end up on these psych drugs...

And eventually, in withdrawal...

 

And in reality, whether male or female, even if your NOT in peri menopause having the hormonal flux exacerbate things, as a female trying to withdraw...

What damage did being subjected to these hormones do in utero to our forming brains and what links to withdrawal complications are there, at any age?

Over all, I think it's a discussion worth having...

 

Ok, I need to go, It's freezing in here..

And I need to go find a better blanket... 

 

[Altostrata]

I'm a DES baby. What do you think that has to do with peri-menopause or withdrawal?

[Colonial]

I can't say for sure, actually.

That's why I was wondering if any studies had been done comparing withdrawal experiences of people in both camps, DES and non DES (The Placebo Group, so to speak)

And if withdrawing during Menopause affected the percentage rate of a successful outcome, or symptoms.

I have read that DES did not "seem" to create a difference for Menopause "per se", but my concern is when you add the other brain altering drugs into the mix, can this be what for a certain percentage makes Withdrawal worse or so prolonged?

And for the Male Children, what did being exposed to so many hormones do to them to be put on some of these Psych drugs to begin with, and/or affect their ability to safely and quickly withdraw?

 

[Armorall]

I have another question. I have seen that sometimes people who are mostly recovered from WD end up doing something like taking cold medicine and then it sends them into a bad wave. What about if you've recovered from WD and a few years later hit menopause? Would it shake the CNS back into a withdrawal state along with the menopause symptoms? Asking for a friend (myself). 

[Junglechicken]

Anyone else found their WD symptoms were amplified after having had the mirena coil fitted?

[Junglechicken]

On 2/11/2020 at 6:22 PM, Junglechicken said:

Anyone else found their WD symptoms were amplified after having had the mirena coil fitted?

 

Update: having it out on 19th March.

 

Reckon its messed up my gut functioning and triggered histamine intolerance/SIBO.  Apparently its very common for middle-aged women to develop histamine intolerance. 

 

If you were to ask me if I recommended having one of these fitted, I would tell you NO!

 

There are too many unpleasant side effects which the doctors won't tell you about.

[Junglechicken]

So it's out!

 

Since Wednesday, Ive developed pain under my left arm pit.

 

I know, lymph nodes are located there, and I haven't felt any lumps (breast cancer scare).

 

Could also be referred pain from gut pain on my left side.   Oh, so many options 🤔

 

Have to weigh up how long to wait before getting checked.

 

Hopefully, it'll have disappeared before too long.