Sottana: Paxil withdrawal - questions and concerns

[Sottana]

Hey Chessie. 

 

The main reason I’m doing the ten percent and holding for six weeks (or longer) is because I’m using a compounding pharmacy and find making my own liquid formula to be kind of daunting and would rather just have a pharmacy do it. Idk if I could go to them every week. I like your other suggestion of doing 5 percent every 3 or 4 weeks. That sounds way more doable. Maybe for my next drop I’ll do a month at 5 percent lower a see how that goes. 

[Sottana]

Hey Nick. After my last drop I waited 7 months before dropping again. I felt like I was as stable as I was going to be.

 

I know this is going to take a while, and I’m very patient/expect to be holding a lot. 

 

My plan wasn’t really going to drop every month and hold for a week or two. It was more along the lines of drop and probably hold for six to eight weeks (depending on how I feel) and then drop again if I was ok).

 

I think I’ll probably drop by only 5 percent next time, and see how that feels. Granted it’s only been a week since I dropped and I can’t expect to have no symptoms at all.

 

i did have a wave yesterday, but it was far less intense than the waves I used to get. 

 

Anyway, I’ll be holding here for AT LEAST another month or two and observing how i feel. When I feel ready for the next drop, I’ll most likely try 5 percent instead of 10 

[Sottana]

Hey Chessie,

 

so my plan is to hold here for another month or two and see how I do. 

 

If this is too hard/symptoms persist, I’ll do a 5 percent drop with the compounding pharmacy and see how I tolerate that.

 

if that seems too harsh, I’ll consider making my own liquid and do research into doing that.

 

for the time being, id really like to try and stick with the compounding pharmacy as I’m not too confident making my own mixture and also find it way easier to use a pharmacy.

 

let me know what you think of my plan when you get the chance!

 

thanks 

[Sottana]

I’ve also heard updosing doesn’t always work, and since my symptoms seem pretty mild in comparison to what they were, I think I’ll hold off on that for now 

[Sottana]

On last thing. I have OCD and fear that I am becoming obsessive about this tapering process. I’m trying to see if there’s anyone out there who has dealt with this issue. 

 

For example, after Nick said, maybe you’ve gone too fast, it created some serious doubts for me. I started obsessing over the thought, maybe I have gone too fast, perhaps I’m headed for another crash etc etc. I know this is all obsessive thinking and isn’t related to withdrawal.

 

I know there is no perfect solution to tapering and much of it is just taking it easy, slowly, and finding out what works best for you.

 

my main issue is being careful whilst still living my life and not making every waking thought about withdrawal and tapering. If anyone could help out with this I would feel very appreciative. 

[nick1990]

Sounds like a good plan to drop by 5% and see how that goes, or try the Brassmonkey slide method - which works well for lots of folks.

 

I understand the OCD thoughts. I get them too. They're hard to deal with but mindfulness practice and meditative practice helps tremendously is reducing their power.

 

I can almost guarantee that the OCD symptoms are a result of the drug and/ or WD. Some people struggle organically with OCD. But I've found for myself, its mostly all related to WD and drug tolerance. Some of us are susceptible to obsessive thinking, but WD will amplify it ten times over. It will pass though too, as everything in WD does, and you will be able to see and think clearly once again.

 

Nick

[Sottana]

Thanks brother. 

 

I appreciate your your words of wisdom.

 

I used to meditate daily and have kind of fallen off recently. Maybe now is a good time to start getting back into it.

 

Great suggestion. 

 

I see from your thread that you’re from Australia? That weather must hell withdrawal a bit haha. I’m jealous as it’s raining and sleeting here in NJ in the good ol’ US of A. 

 

Anthony

[Sottana]

Help withdrawal 

[nick1990]

Close Anthony  , New Zealand. Rainy, windy winters and good summers. Peaceful place. Good for the soul . 

 

I highly recommend making mindfulness practice a top priority . Sometimes WD is so hard that these approaches don’t work as well as we would hope, however we can only benefit from it . 

 

Be well bro,

 

Cheers, Nick. 

[Carmie]

Hi Adili, 

 

I’m sorry your withdrawals are bad. I can only taper by 4% to 5%. There are quite a few people that can’t taper by 10%.

 

I hope you stabilise soon, and please go slower as you are already thinking of doing. 

 

I find when I’m in waves the best thing to do is to distract myself. I do arts n crafts, watch movies n tv shows, listen to music, get out in nature etc etc. It won’t get rid of the withdrawals but it really helps me to cope. Find something you enjoy doing, and even if you can’t enjoy it do it anyway. Distract! Distract! Distract! is my motto. 

 

I really am sorry that you are going through this, we will get there in the end though. It might not seem that way when we are in waves, but when windows poke through it shows that we really are healing. 

 

Sending hugs🤗

 

 

[Sottana]

Hey Carmie! 

 

I havent really had had a bad wave since my cut, just minor waves and some depression. Fortunate it isn’t even close to as bad as it was 7 months ago with my big cut. 

 

Im actually able to feel hopeful again and like I can heal from this, which shows me that I’ve come a long way and that my slow taper is going to make this whole thing less horrid. 

 

I’m definitely going to do slower in the future. Perhaps only 6.6 or 5 percent cuts. I’ll staet with five and see how that feels. 

 

Good advice on the distractions! I’ll definitely keep that in mind for the next time I don’t feel great. 

[Sottana]

Just got hit by another wave. I guess 10 percent cuts are way too much for me. 

 

Will try 5 percent in the future after holding till I feel stable. 

 

Many advice for how to more quickly stabilize at this dose? 

 

Thanks guys 

[ChessieCat]

On 12/20/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sottana said:

Many advice for how to more quickly stabilize at this dose? 

 

Be patient and try not to stress about it.  At least now you know that you need to go slower so that is a positive.

 

[Sottana]

You’re right. That’s all I can do really. The more you worry, the more it makes it more intense

 

thabna chessie 

[Sottana]

Thanks 

[Carmie]

Hi Adili, 

 

None if us know when we will stabilise after each drop. Stressing about things like that will only make you feel worse, and stress can make symptoms worse too. I know it’s easy to become OCD in this tapering process as everything feels so overwhelming.

 

Have you checked out Claire Weekes? She has a lot of videos on YouTube, I actually have one of her books too. She talks about floating through whatever symptoms we have, and not adding secondary fear to the fear we already have. If we add fear upon fear our symptoms will get even worse. She’s got such a lovely soothing and kind grandmother voice too.

 

I know this is a really hard hard journey but we can do this one step at a time. Try and find yourself some good distractions too so that you don’t keep dwelling on the fear of tapering and your symptoms. Find some hobbies or watch movies, listen to music, go out in nature etc. We just have to take an hour at a time, or a minute at a time sometimes.

 

Take care💚

 

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Carmie
Autocorrect 🙄

[ChessieCat]

LINKS:

 

The labelled diagram in this link explains how anxiety affects different parts of the body:

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/docs/AnxietySelfHelp.pdf

 

Dr Claire Weekes suffered from anxiety and learned and taught ways of coping.  There are videos available on YouTube.

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)
 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes
 

Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help ...
 

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

On 4/28/2017 at 4:03 AM, brassmonkey said:

 

AAF: Acknowledge, Accept, Float.  It's what you have to do when nothing else works, and can be a very powerful tool in coping with anxiety. The neuroemotional anxiety many of us feel during WD is directly caused by the drugs and their chemical reactions in the brain.  Making it so there is nothing we can do about them.  They won't respond to other drugs, relaxation techniques and the like.  They do, however, react very well to being ignored.  That's the concept behind AAF.  Acknowledge, get to know the feeling involved, explore them.  Accept, These feelings are a part of you and they aren't going anywhere fast. Float, let the feeling float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.  It's a well documented fact that the more you feed in to anxiety the worse it gets.  What starts as generalized neuroemotinal anxiety can be easily blown into a full fledged panic attack just by thinking about it.

 

I often liken it to an unwanted house guest.  At first you talk to them, have conversations, communicate with them.  After a while you figure out that they aren't leaving and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them.  So you go on about your day, working around them until they get bored and leave.

 

It can take some practice, but AAF really does work.  I hope you give it a try.

 

[Sottana]

Thank you guys so much, this is so useful. 

 

Youre both great, carmie and chessie. 

 

It’s so true. It just feeds into it like crazy. I start spiraling about every aspect of my anxiety, my recovery, the taper, and before I know it I’m deep in a rabbit hole. 

 

I took off work today and have been taking off a lot. I feel like a failure for doing so as I know it doesn’t help when I do. 

 

Hopefully accepting how I feel and using these techniques will allow me to not take off in the future when I have these rabbit hole thinking patterns.

 

thanks and much love

 

Anthony 

[ChessieCat]

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

[eymen23]

Hi Adili,

 

Just reading through your posts, your attitude is brilliant. I found this really inspirising! You also have a lot of self awareness to recognise your emotional spirals etc.

 

Best of luck with the taper. I’ve got a good feeling you’re going to make it out the other side a stronger person. 

 

[Sottana]

Thanks pal! 

 

I just briefly read your posts too and saw cannabis triggered your anxiety. Similar thing happened to me.

 

I feel the same way about you and your recovery. I really appreciate you saying that man. You have no idea.

 

Much love,

 

anthony 

[eymen23]

Oh really? Literally, it turned my life upside down!! I had no symptoms of mental health issues and I went from that to severe panic and DP/DR in a matter of days. 

 

Whenever people mention smoking cannabis to me, all I can think is ‘oh God, your life could be flipped upside down’.

 

Have a great Xmas! 

[Sottana]

Yep, exact same thing happened to me.

 

its super common dude. 

 

Hate that drug with a passion. When friends are smoking I have to walk away bc the smell of gets me anxious. 

 

Happy holidays to you you as well!! 

[Sottana]

Little update for anyone that can help.

 

so ive been on 18 mg for 3 weeks now and have seen the depressive anxious waves go away after the first two weeks. Fingers crossed.

 

its seems my symptom profile is the same after every drop so far. Windows and waves for a period of time, and then more physical symptoms for a period of time.

 

im now experiencing the head pressure and headaches again and am also more aware of my DP.

 

my main concern is feeling like I am somehow double screwed in the word of depersonalization because I actually experienced it prior to meds, during meds, and now during withdrawal times ten. If I could even get back to a normal level of connectedness with slight DP, I’d be ok with that. It’s just when everything gets extremely hazy and unreal that I start to really get frustrated.

 

looking for support and reassurance that this will get better and eventually I will live a normal life with at least normal levels of tolerable depersonalization.

 

thanms guys 

 

 

[Sottana]

I know the key is to simply stop worrying about it and to stop seeing it as something super threatening. It’s just with me, I convince myself it’s like my original condition returning/it’s going to be permanent at times. Which stresses me out/makes me come to drastic conclusions about quitting me job etc etc 

[eymen23]

On 12/27/2018 at 2:22 PM, Sottana said:

I know the key is to simply stop worrying about it and to stop seeing it as something super threatening. It’s just with me, I convince myself it’s like my original condition returning/it’s going to be permanent at times. Which stresses me out/makes me come to drastic conclusions about quitting me job etc etc 

 

Hi Ant,

 

I can definitely understand your concerns. Like myself, I know your big trigger was cannabis and there are tonnes of people who have longer term anxiety and/or DP DR from this. Of course if the medication didn’t do much to help the DP/DR, beyond it worsening temporarily during withdrawals you shouldn’t find it somehow coming back even worse and with a vengeance. I think as you get passed the withdrawals you’ll be able to work with your DP/DR and focus on improving it.

 

Magnesium and later phosphatadylserine were great for my DP/DR symptoms. As well as things like mindfulness and other stress reduction techniques l. Right now with the withdrawal it’s probably best to focus on just getting through that. You can always trial other things once you’re more stable. 

[Sottana]

That’s true. I mean, I do feel like it kind of did help the dp/dr for years tho. I’m really not sure, it’s so hard to tell. Basically, after going on meds. I had a period of like 5-6 years of feeling great with essentially zero dp.

 

after the meds stopped working, dp slowly started creeping back. Now that I’m coming off it’s coming back but like worse than I’ve ever had it. That definitely makes me think, “hey, this is withdrawal if it’s never been this bad, and it’l get better”. Then there’s also the part of me that overthinks it and thinks, without this aid my dp/will come back, look I’m feeling dp, this must be permanent”. It’s a cycle 

[eymen23]

I see. So the medication was helpful for your DP for a long period of time, and now you are having to worry about coping with it both during and after withdrawal?

 

I guess this becomes more of a question of whether you can improve your DP/DR without using medication, or at least cope better with it. Have you ever tried anything else for DP/DR symptoms I.e. supplements or coping techniques? 

[Sottana]

Yeah, I mean, i basically didn’t worry about it for years. Ever since meds stopped working, dp has been on and off but not severe. It’s  only been severe during withdrawal.

 

exercise helps, meditation, yoga, not focusing on it (which I’m doing now lol) etc. as far as I know, it’s a defense mechanism that your brain uses when in extreme fear/panic. Understanding what it is was helpful too.

 

its mostly the withdrawal and the unearthly levels it’s brought it too that have really tripped me up. Makes me start catastrophizing 

[Sottana]

I take magnesium but will look into phosphotado whatever it’s called 

[Sottana]

Any mods have any opinions on this supplement that could weigh in? 

[eymen23]

During withdrawal it is probably better to stick with the recommended magnesium and fish oil. You may react in an unpredictable way to the phosphatadylserine right now. I’ll let the mods chime in. 

 

It sounds like you are indeed catastrophizing, which is being triggered by the DP/DR worsening. It’s great you have that self awareness. I suspect as you have had issues with this symptom in the past even before antidepressants, it is rearing it’s head again during what was perhaps ‘poop-out’ and then now withdrawal. 

 

It may well be the case you need to continue working on the DP/DR post tapering, but during withdrawal when it is more extreme, you may find CBT helpful (reframing the situation and presence of DP/DR and realising it’s very unlikely to stay this severe). You may also benefit from using mindfulness a the symptoms arise. Have you tried that before? 

[Sottana]

Good ideas. Yes, I used to be an avid meditator but have fallen off during withdrawal. Maybe I’ll try and get back kno it now. 

 

I like what you said about it being “unlikely to say this severe”. That’s a good CBT thought challenge and a way to diffuse catastrophizing

[Sottana]

The other problem is I have this temptation to drop my dose again right now even though I know it isn’t with wise.

 

This is because last time I dropped I felt very connected and very alive for like 10 days. Cried a lot but it felt so good. 

 

I know now I shouldn’t and will wait, but it’s so tempting 

[ChessieCat]

I found the diagram in this document helpful for understand the sensations that happen in our body because of anxiety.  https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/anxiety.htm

 

Regarding CBT.  It is good to learn CBT.  However, challenging your thoughts can sometimes be triggering and stressful during withdrawal.  We also need to learn and use calming techniques to give our brains and nervous systems a rest.  Meditating can help give your brain a rest.

 

Wanting to do something is perfectly normal and for men I think it is an even stronger drive.  It is inbuilt in most males to want to take action to fix something.  However what our brains need is a calm environment and time.

 

And another thing that may be helpful.  Instead of comparing how you feel now to how you were feeling at your best, make the comparison with how you were feeling at your worst.  That way it is easier to recognise that you have improved.

[Sottana]

Yeah, all good points chessie thank you.

 

looking back, I’m overall more calm than I was one year ago, when I started my taper. I’m no longer constantly panicky and on edge. That’s a bonus, tho the dp seems a bit deeper. Gotta try to just not focus on it and realize it’ll lessen with time