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KMart95: a life free of antidepressants

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succubus76

Glad you are doing better!

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KMart95

Today was the first time I really learned that over-exercising is a big no-go in withdrawal. I felt like I might die today. I got up to get an IV and had a panic attack in the car. I'm still trying to find balance between exercising enough so that I can keep my depression under control, but not so much that I crash the next day. Some days I can do very little & it's discouraging. 

 

I'm taking Neem right now in an effort to knock the remainder of the SIBO out before I start my taper. The die-off is pretty gnarly but i'm dealing. I think if all goes well i'll be ready by early October. That'll be over 5 months since I reinstated & I don't think i'll get much more stable than I am now, seeing as my waves come with my hormones every single time.

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Tom37

I can only do good long walks but anything more intense and it affects me the following day. Walking though still does make me feel better mentally so at least I have that. Frustrating though when have also always been very active as always a great stress relief. Hopefully you will figure out what you can tolerate soon but it’s a common issue in wd.

 

Try not to put a time period on when you will start your taper and try to go by how you are feeling and how long you have been feeling like that for. You really want to be as stable as possible before tapering otherwise it could get difficult for you. Just remember getting stable can take a long time after reinstatement and your looking for the same consistent feeling daily over a period of weeks without any spike or change in symptoms. Of course if how your feeling is due to actual side effects of the drug then it’s a different story.

 

Be proud of yourself for coping so well with what your going through especially at such a young age. I’m in my late thirties and find it very hard at times and no idea how I would have coped if a lot younger.

 

Take care.

 

 

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KMart95
13 minutes ago, Tom37 said:

I can only do good long walks but anything more intense and it affects me the following day. Walking though still does make me feel better mentally so at least I have that. Frustrating though when have also always been very active as always a great stress relief. Hopefully you will figure out what you can tolerate soon but it’s a common issue in wd.

 

Try not to put a time period on when you will start your taper and try to go by how you are feeling and how long you have been feeling like that for. You really want to be as stable as possible before tapering otherwise it could get difficult for you. Just remember getting stable can take a long time after reinstatement and your looking for the same consistent feeling daily over a period of weeks without any spike or change in symptoms. Of course if how your feeling is due to actual side effects of the drug then it’s a different story.

 

Be proud of yourself for coping so well with what your going through especially at such a young age. I’m in my late thirties and find it very hard at times and no idea how I would have coped if a lot younger.

 

Take care.

 

 

I seem to be the kind of person that is not going to have the same consistent feeling over several days or weeks. My waves are pretty much only hormonally related , however my windows fluctuate between feeling great and just meh. Observing over the past 5.5 months it's kind of become stagnant. I have other health problems that can also be causing it. I just don't know what i'm supposed to do because i'm not one of those people who went back on the drug and feels perfect again. I'm on a super small dose so i'm not surprised.

 

Thank you, I appreciate it. Some days I cope much better than others. I never really learned coping skills, being on medication for so many years, so this experience has definitely showed me what i'm capable of.

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Tom37

We are always a lot for more capable than we think and going through wd definitely proves that. Good work on getting some coping skills behind you. I did cbt when first had anxiety issues and it was the best thing I ever did. You may find other things that work better for you but there is definitely a way through anxiety you just have to find what works for you.

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KMart95

I really need some encouragement. I'm in a really bad wave, or at least I think it's a wave, i'm not sure. I'm falling into a deep deep hole of depression, SI, & extreme OCD the past month and the past couple days it's reached an almost unbearable point. I have no idea why things have been progressively getting worse instead of better this past month. I feel completely trapped and hopeless. A big part of me wants to go back on medication & stop suffering but I know I can't because I tried in April & had a horrible reaction. I just feel like I suffer with a brain that's pretty much trying to kill me or I go on a cocktail of meds to stabilize myself. How is it possible to achieve pretty good stability from reinstatement and then go backwards? I'm scared.

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ChessieCat

When I get lower moods than is my baseline I think back to what has been happening/doing leading up to it that might have been the trigger.  Poor sleep, sickness, additional stress (usual life things eg finances, relationship, work etc), not eating reasonably well, overdoing things physically.

 

I know that doesn't give a solution to get out of it, but if you can pin point a cause you are better able to accept where you are at and take it moment by moment to get through it.

 

Edited by ChessieCat

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Tom37

Hey,

 

Im no moderator or anything and not telling you what to do but speaking from my own experience trying to get stability is definitely not linear like we would want it to be and setbacks are common and almost to be expected. We often have to go backwards to go forwards again. 

 

I know whats it like to be scared about this whole process so your not alone there but it can make it even harder if you let it get out of control.

 

There is a good thread from brassmonkey about reinstatement and stability (can’t quite remember the name of it but one of his essays) which may help you understand it a bit more if you haven’t already checked it out. 

 

If you have been dealing with other stressors that can also effect you.

 

Remember its very easy to get caught up in the here and now which is our current situation when in reality things will almost certainly be better in the next few weeks/months for you.

 

Take care.

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KMart95
2 minutes ago, Tom37 said:

Hey,

 

Im no moderator or anything and not telling you what to do but speaking from my own experience trying to get stability is definitely not linear like we would want it to be and setbacks are common and almost to be expected. We often have to go backwards to go forwards again. 

 

I know whats it like to be scared about this whole process so your not alone there but it can make it even harder if you let it get out of control.

 

There is a good thread from brassmonkey about reinstatement and stability (can’t quite remember the name of it but one of his essays) which may help you understand it a bit more if you haven’t already checked it out. 

 

If you have been dealing with other stressors that can also effect you.

 

Remember its very easy to get caught up in the here and now which is our current situation when in reality things will almost certainly be better in the next few weeks/months for you.

 

Take care.

Thank you for the reminder. This is the worst wave I have ever been in, & I keep questioning if it is something I did to make it this way. Even though I have windows, when i'm in a bad wave I can't see the light. Sometimes I worry a particularly bad wave will be the end of me. I have to keep fighting somehow and know there are better days coming.

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KMart95
42 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

When I get lower moods than is my baseline I think back to what has been happening/doing leading up to it that might have been the trigger.  Poor sleep, sickness, additional stress (usual life things eg finances, relationship, work etc), not eating reasonably well, overdoing things physically.

 

I know that doesn't give a solution to get out of it, but if you can pin point a cause you are better able to accept where you are at and take it moment by moment to get through it.

 

I can definitely pinpoint some things. I overexercised a couple days ago and felt horrible after. I've also realized that it is not the right time to treat SIBO , & that the die-off reaction and supplement side effects are too much for my nervous system. I think I have become so desperate to get rid of the depression that maybe I am unintentionally doing things that are hurting myself. I just want to make it out of this okay. I have a lot of life to live. It's just scary when you feel hopeless in the moment. 

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Tom37

You will make it out of this ok. Don’t stress about that. It’s easy to underestimate how strong we are and what we can get through. Just think of all the people that have got through this and you will get there too. 

 

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Cocopuffz17
27 minutes ago, KMart95 said:

I can definitely pinpoint some things. I overexercised a couple days ago and felt horrible after. I've also realized that it is not the right time to treat SIBO , & that the die-off reaction and supplement side effects are too much for my nervous system. I think I have become so desperate to get rid of the depression that maybe I am unintentionally doing things that are hurting myself. I just want to make it out of this okay. I have a lot of life to live. It's just scary when you feel hopeless in the moment. 

Yes, it is very easy to get down. But remember the human body is an amazing machine. We literally take in food and turn it into the most basic forms and then use it to rebuild everything in our body. Our body knows what to do. Although it does take time after being chemically altered, it will come! There are so many success stories! Remember everyday is one day closer to being healed. 

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KMart95

I'm on day 2 of taking 1/4 of the new liquid & so far i'm doing good. Having bad histamine problems this week though, hoping it's not related to the new liquid.

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KMart95

Okay I lied, I feel horrendous. The 1st half of the day wasn't so bad but now I feel so sick. 

 

@eymen23 I need your input. Is it necessary for me to take this compounded liquid? If I go back to my old liquid which is 20mg/5ml and taper by 2.5% per week for 2 weeks & then hold for 2 weeks, can I safely do that with a 1ml syringe and my old liquid? At least up until a certain point? I think I may have an allergy to this liquid. I could just be sick, but I feel horrendous. Sensitive to sound, feeling like my brain is swelling, and histamine problems.

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eymen23

KMart,

 

I’m sorry that you are struggling so much with what is potentially the transition to a new liquid.

 

As I noted previously, you have documented a lot of the typical symptoms and signs of being destabilised as of late, and transitioning to a new liquid may have been best saved for later down the line. Given your intense reaction, I would strongly consider going back to a 100% dose of the original liquid and holding for some time. 

 

No, it is not necessary for you to start a compounded liquid right now. However, you will not be able to accurately taper the original liquid by 2.5% at a time.

 

You usually take 0.37ml of the original liquid which is 1.48mg of Prozac.

 

Taking one less line on the syringe would give a dose of 0.36ml which is 1.44mg of Prozac.

 

(0.04mg / 1.48mg) x 100 = 2.7% 

 

As you go down each line of the syringe using the original liquid, the percentage drop will go up and up, with it already starting above your desired 2.5%. 

 

I sense from your recent posts that you are somewhat desperate to improve your situation, avoid claiming on disability and live more like a typical adult in their early 20s. Please tread very carefully. Rushing this process and failing to accept the tricky health situation that you are in, could lead to a much worse outcome. 

 

I suggest that you prioritise making strides forward in non-drug coping technique with the help of your new therapy, keep your drug dosages and supplements consistent, and avoid external stressors as best you can. Your recent changes i.e. differing syringe technique, coq10, IV cocktails and a compounded liquid transition, all appear to have made things worse. Please take note of this and try to see that changing things has not helped you. 

 

Could you please start providing symptom notes in the usual SA format? If you are unsure of this format, I will copy and paste it when I get a chance. 

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KMart95
10 hours ago, eymen23 said:

KMart,

 

I’m sorry that you are struggling so much with what is potentially the transition to a new liquid.

 

As I noted previously, you have documented a lot of the typical symptoms and signs of being destabilised as of late, and transitioning to a new liquid may have been best saved for later down the line. Given your intense reaction, I would strongly consider going back to a 100% dose of the original liquid and holding for some time. 

 

No, it is not necessary for you to start a compounded liquid right now. However, you will not be able to accurately taper the original liquid by 2.5% at a time.

 

You usually take 0.37ml of the original liquid which is 1.48mg of Prozac.

 

Taking one less line on the syringe would give a dose of 0.36ml which is 1.44mg of Prozac.

 

(0.04mg / 1.48mg) x 100 = 2.7% 

 

As you go down each line of the syringe using the original liquid, the percentage drop will go up and up, with it already starting above your desired 2.5%. 

 

I sense from your recent posts that you are somewhat desperate to improve your situation, avoid claiming on disability and live more like a typical adult in their early 20s. Please tread very carefully. Rushing this process and failing to accept the tricky health situation that you are in, could lead to a much worse outcome. 

 

I suggest that you prioritise making strides forward in non-drug coping technique with the help of your new therapy, keep your drug dosages and supplements consistent, and avoid external stressors as best you can. Your recent changes i.e. differing syringe technique, coq10, IV cocktails and a compounded liquid transition, all appear to have made things worse. Please take note of this and try to see that changing things has not helped you. 

 

Could you please start providing symptom notes in the usual SA format? If you are unsure of this format, I will copy and paste it when I get a chance. 

So the only way I will be able to taper in the future is by diluting my old liquid I assume?

 

Yes I am desperate to get out of this situation. I have been in withdrawal for a year but I have had health problems for over 4. It is very hard to just accept that i'm losing the best years of my life to this. The only reason I have not gotten disability is because I don't qualify, but I don't think it would make me feel any better. My family can afford to pay for my expenses, it's just the fact that I am frequently bedbound this past couple of months that is hard to accept. From Jan to April I went through the worst of it and i'm still traumatized. I'm not intentionally trying to put myself back in the situation, I usually take advice well, I think i'm just ready for it all to be over. 

 

Yes I will start keeping notes. Thank you for responding!

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Daisygirlsk
5 hours ago, KMart95 said:

So the only way I will be able to taper in the future is by diluting my old liquid I assume?

 

Yes I am desperate to get out of this situation. I have been in withdrawal for a year but I have had health problems for over 4. It is very hard to just accept that i'm losing the best years of my life to this. The only reason I have not gotten disability is because I don't qualify, but I don't think it would make me feel any better. My family can afford to pay for my expenses, it's just the fact that I am frequently bedbound this past couple of months that is hard to accept. From Jan to April I went through the worst of it and i'm still traumatized. I'm not intentionally trying to put myself back in the situation, I usually take advice well, I think i'm just ready for it all to be over. 

 

Yes I will start keeping notes. Thank you for responding!

How are you doing today? Your story is very similar to mine 

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KMart95
17 minutes ago, Daisygirlsk said:

How are you doing today? Your story is very similar to mine 

A bit better, thank you for asking ! Just exhausted. How are you doing?

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Daisygirlsk
Just now, KMart95 said:

A bit better, thank you for asking ! Just exhausted. How are you doing?

I'm going to send you a pm

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KMart95

I think i'm going to be stuck on this drug forever. This whole tapering & diluting thing is too stressful and complicated for me. I'm feeling frustrated. I get really stressed when i'm not prepared or don't know how to do something before I begin. I thought I could just go down one line at a time and be fine but now messing around with liquids and all this stuff just makes me want to give up. It's been a whole year and i'm still on this stupid drug. 

 

I'm over it 

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Cocopuffz17
14 minutes ago, KMart95 said:

I think i'm going to be stuck on this drug forever. This whole tapering & diluting thing is too stressful and complicated for me. I'm feeling frustrated. I get really stressed when i'm not prepared or don't know how to do something before I begin. I thought I could just go down one line at a time and be fine but now messing around with liquids and all this stuff just makes me want to give up. It's been a whole year and i'm still on this stupid drug. 

 

I'm over it 

Baby steps, break it down into small manageable pieces. You got this! Do what you can and it will get easier and easier. Look how far you have come. You got this! 

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ChessieCat

This is how I like to work out the calculations (I like to work with visuals and do math calculations step by step):

 

                                                 5mL : 20mg

divide both sides by 5

                                                 1mL : 4mg

divide both sides by 4

                                            0.25mL : 1mg

                                   

 

These are both dose examples, if you divide the 1.48mg by 0.37mL you get 4, if you divide 1.28mg by 0.32mL you get 4 which we can confirm as correct because 1mL : 4mg above in green.

 

0.37mL : 1.48mg

 

0.32mL : 1.28mg

 

 

To get the above liquid amounts the mg had to be multiplied by 0.25mL from blue above.

 

 

The next reduction (if you are currently taking 0.32mL : 1.28mg) would be:  1.28mg x 0.975 = 1.248mg

 

So multiply the mg by 0.25

 

0.312mL  : 1.248mg

 

To confirm divide 1.248mg by 0.312mL = 4

 

So that's how calculating the dose and the concentration works.  Now I'll try and work on diluting.

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KMart95

Thank you so much Chessie ! I understand this completely, super helpful !! 

 

Edited by ChessieCat
removed quote

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ChessieCat

That's good.  And you've got it there for later reference.

 

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ChessieCat

 Please check my calculations.

 

To make a diluted solution for 4 doses you would need to multiply the daily dose by 4 to find out the total dose you need.

 

0.312mL : 1.248mg                  new reduction dose

 

multiply both sides by 4         to get four doses

 

1.248mL : 4.992mg

 

 

round up for easier measuring

1.25mL : 5mg

 

You are going to need 1.25mL of prescription liquid.  Use 50mL water and add 1.25mL prescription liquid.  Please note that you will end up with 51.25mL of liquid but it won’t make much difference to the dose amount and you are only reducing by 2.5%.  The important thing is to take the same dose each day and measure it the same way each time.  It is simpler to do it this way.

 

Because the prescription liquid is diluted the ratio changes:

 

50mL : 5mg

 

divide both sides by sides by 5

 

10mL : 1mg

 

multiply both sides by dose amount    this reduction = 1.248mg

 

12.48mL : 1.248mg

 

 

Edited by ChessieCat
added space

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eymen23

@ktp

 

Although your response to KMart demonstrated you have a good understanding of maths and how to work out the numbers required, it is in no way made clear to somebody who has been honest enough to note maths is not their strong point. 

 

It’s a shame your ability to show empathy,

patience and break things down line by line, aren’t as good as your maths skills. 

 

@KMart95

 

There are different elements involved in the diluting process. 

 

1) What concentration of mg/ml would you like (or need) the Prozac to be. 

 

It is currently a 20mg/5ml concentration, which is equal to a 4mg/1ml concentration. 

 

That means that every 0.01ml line of your syringe, will equate to 0.04mg of Prozac. 

 

If you recall our previous conversations on your introductory thread, we worked out that you are taking 0.37ml of liquid which equals 1.48mg of Prozac.

 

If you were to drop by one line on your syringe, which would take you from 0.37ml to 0.36ml if liquid, you would be making a 2.7% drop, which is greater than the 2.5% drop that you want. (0.04mg / 1.48mg = 2.7%).

 

So we need to dilute the concentration enough so that dropping by one line of the syringe at a time is less than a 2.5% drop, but ideally we don’t want to dilute it so much that your dose won’t fit into the 1ml syringes that you are using now. Because for example, if you had 1mg/ml solution (similar to the one you had compounded), you would need to take 1.48ml of it to get your 1.48mg dose, which won’t fit into a 1ml syringe. 

 

If you diluted the liquid to become a 2mg/1ml concentration, you would need to take 0.74ml to get your current 1.48mg dose. This is great because it would fit into your 1ml syringe. It’s also great, because it means that by dropping one line of your syringe and taking 0.73ml, you would only be making a 1.35% drop. 

 

You could continue dropping by under 2.5% at a time, until you reached 0.40ml or 0.80mg. At this point, dropping by an additional line of the syringe (equal to 0.02mg of Prozac), would give you a drop of exactly 2.5%. Beyond this, each drop would be greater than 2.5% and we’d need to look at diluting future solutions down to perhaps 1mg/ml. 

 

2) How much of another liquid is needed to dilute the solution 

 

We know that your current liquid is a 20mg/5ml concentration, which is equal to a 4mg/1ml concentration.  

 

That means that if you want a solution with a 2mg/1ml concentration, you will need to add 1ml of drugless liquid, for every 1ml of your current Prozac liquid. 

 

So for example, to make a batch that would last 5 days:

 

You would need five lots of your current dosage i.e. 0.37ml x 5 = 1.85ml 

 

You would also need an equal amount of drugless liquid = 1.85ml. 

 

I assume that it would be easier to round this up to 2ml of each, just in case any of the liquid is lost during the dilution process. 

 

So in essence, you would need to mix up a new solution, containing 2ml of your current Prozac liquid and 2ml of a drugless liquid. 

 

3) How to physically dilute the liquid and store it

 

This is where I would need some assistance from some of the more experienced moderators or members. 

 

I’m assuming you could use water as the drugless liquid of choice to complete the dilution, but I would be grateful to hear somebody else’s input on what liquid can be used for this. 

 

I’d also assume the liquid would need to be stored in a dark container that is airtight (or as airtight as possible), but I’ll again defer this to somebody else with more knowledge. 

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Edited by ChessieCat
added @ ktp

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KMart95

eymem

 

Thank you so much , this is so easy ! Now it seems a lot less daunting.

 

Edited by ChessieCat
removed quote added name

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brassmonkey

Using water to dilute the original liquid would be fine.  Prozac is highly soluble in water. Just be sure to mix it very well at first and again when you measure out your dose.

 

BTW that was a very good explanation Eymen. 

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KMart95

My histamine intolerance has randomly decided to make an appearance again the past couple weeks, worse than it's ever been. I've had low grade fevers, lymph node and ear pain, ringing ears, sore throat, constant post nasal drip and migraines. I'm miserable ! I hate that I can't take anything for it.

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KMart95

Does anyone know if there is an allergy nasal spray that is safe to use ? I have blocked, painful eustachian tubes and need something for allergies.

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ChessieCat

There are many existing topic on SA.  You can either use the site search function or a search engine and add survivingantidepressants.org to the search term.

 

allergies-sneezing-stuffed-up-nose-sinus-antihistamines-and-what-to-use-for-allergy-relief

 

On 3/16/2012 at 10:26 AM, Altostrata said:

I have springtime allergies, too.

 

I use Pataday eyedrops for itchy eyes and fluticasone (Flonase) nasal spray.

 

UPDATE: Since 2012, I've changed to ketotifen eye drops and azelastine nasal spray -- they are non-steroidal. Steroidal drops and sprays can advance cataracts or glaucoma.

 

I'd avoid taking an antihistamine if you have withdrawal symptoms. They affect the histamine receptors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamine_receptor , which may be involved in withdrawal syndrome.

 

Saline rinses (use sterilized water!) can reduce nasal symptoms.

 

 

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KMart95

I have some good news. My compounding pharmacy made the 1:1 liquid without any alcohol or artificial flavours and I have managed to transition over in 9 days. I did have a mild uptick in symptoms - bruxism and excessive sweating which I never had before but all is well. No diluting needed for now! Giving myself at least a month for my body to process the change and then if all is smooth sailing I will start the taper.

 

Still having histamine problems but I didn't end up using a spray. Just being careful with my diet and using a neti pot.

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KMart95

I'm freaking out. I thought I was just allergic to the new compounded liquid but I guess I had a bad reaction to the change in generics. A couple days after getting on it I started to notice I was sweating a lot, having trouble sleeping, having crying spells. Well today i'm EXTREMELY angry to the point that I can't control it and feel like I need to throw things and have very strong suicidal thoughts. It's like an agitation. I've been yelling at everyone all day. My blood pressure is also extremely low at 74/50 and I fainted when I got out of bed. What do I do?! I've been back on my old liquid for 2 days but things are just getting worse. I feel like if I don't tie myself down i'll lose it and do something stupid. I'm so mad at myself right now 😭😭 I think I just ruined any chance I had at stabilizing and it's no one's fault but my own. I don't know if I can make it through this.

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eymen23

KMart,

 

Unfortunately, it seems you are suffering the effects of making changes at a rate faster than your nervous system can tolerate. 9 days is really the bare minimum when it comes to transitioning and it seems to have triggered a nasty wave. 

 

I’m gathering you have gone straight back to 100% of the old liquid? Since we started communicating on this thread, it appears you’ve made several changes that your nervous system has later rejected. Please try to listen to your body’s feedback. It is not ready for more change, and each time you ‘rock the boat’ it is fighting back at you.

 

I know it’s easy to panic in these situations, but I would strongly suggest you hold everything for as many months as it takes for this to settle down. You will only set yourself back further in the long run by trying to go at a pace faster than you’re able to. It’s better to go one step forward, than two steps forward and three backwards. 

 

In regards to the low blood pressure, you might need to speak to your doctor. Basic instinct would say to stay hydrated, ensure you are getting enough electrolytes (sodium for sure) and being mindful that you’re eating enough. If you continue to faint, I’m afraid that’s not something we can help solve via this thread. 

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KMart95

@eymen23 I appreciate the advice. It does not fall on deaf ears I assure you. I have been working on changing my mindset regarding tapering. After a very scary event this week I am most focused on my safety over speed. I think this reaction to the new drug would have occured regardless, I have always been very very sensitive to drug changes and supplements, but I recognize where I went wrong and misjudged. I'll be back when I get my head screwed on straight and feel truly ready to tackle this thing once and for all, the right way.  

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eymen23
7 hours ago, KMart95 said:

@eymen23 I appreciate the advice. It does not fall on deaf ears I assure you. I have been working on changing my mindset regarding tapering. After a very scary event this week I am most focused on my safety over speed. I think this reaction to the new drug would have occured regardless, I have always been very very sensitive to drug changes and supplements, but I recognize where I went wrong and misjudged. I'll be back when I get my head screwed on straight and feel truly ready to tackle this thing once and for all, the right way.  

 

I’m sorry to hear of the scary event, but I’m glad to hear that you are rethinking your taper.

 

Please take care. 

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