Cleerity: clonazepam, alprazolam, aripiprazole & mirtazapine

[Cleerity]

I’m reading the topic on depersonalisation and derealisation...  I’m pretty sure this is what I am feeling.  But is it really possible that my crossover to liquid Aripiprazole is causing it?  

[Cleerity]

Hello:

 

Today, the derealization/depersonalization is improved.  It was still there this this morning, but more mild.  And I just really inserted myself into every possible interaction at work and it seems to have diminished somewhat more.  Will see what the next few days bring.  I do, however, continue to feel "dopey" and tired, despite my sleep being apparently good.

 

22 hours ago, Cleerity said:

Question:  When folks do crossover to liquid from tablet, what is the most experienced effect?  Does it more often seem the medication is too strong?  Or, diminished?

 

I did read the entire topic on crossing over from tablet to liquid and I believe I saw it mentioned once that a drug seems to have a stronger effect when taken in liquid form.  So, I am just trying to understand what is occurring with my crossover...  

 

I am no stranger to depersonalization and derealization given my traumatic early life beginnings.  I have experienced and worked through these states before.  But they are not my current normal.  Hence, I really do think the medication has caused what I have been feeling, as there is nothing else to account for it in my life right now.  No triggering experiences.  When that liminal sensation hit me two days ago, it came over me as if like an aura and there was pressure at my crown and a feeling of fullness in my head/mind.  There was no mistaking the moment it started.

 

In any event, if DP/DR should visit (or continue to visit) me more, I will accept and patiently abide with myself until it resolves.  I did peruse that entire topic, too, and it was helpful for me to read others' accounts of the experience.

 

Best,

Cleerity

[Cleerity]

Hello:  I woke after about 9 hours of sleep (more than I have been able to sleep in some time) and feel to be back to normal.  Will see what the day brings.  I just took my 8th day dose of  1/2 a 2 mg tablet and 1 ml (1 mg) liquid preparation a little while ago.  I have spent considerable time reading as much as I (so far) could regarding aripiprazole on this forum.  I do wish there were more stories about aripiprazole.  I am also beginning to look at accounts of any antipsychotic use.  I have read some successes and for that I am grateful.  I read Edted's topic, the man that was helping his son with aripiprazole withdrawal, and was sorry to see the topic end without knowing how things turned out for his son...hopefully, good!  

[Cleerity]

I have indeed been better today.  Still not sure why I had those symptoms, but that I am improved/back to normal is what is important (I hope this remains so) and I am grateful.  Just wanted to let you all know.  

[Cleerity]

I did read the Aripiprazole medication guide on the fda.gov website and found that derealization and depersonalization are both listed as infrequent side effects. But that does not explain why I only recently experienced what did seem to be derealization.

 

Another thing I am considering is that when the Aripiprazole was added, it was because I was having intrusive thoughts regarding an abusive cult experience I was involved in.  For several years, I was involved with a shamanic healer (which was also a cult relationship) and chasing gurus.  When it was all over, I was “beside myself” (experiencing depersonalization and derealization), realizing how I had given myself away to these things, realizing how it was abusive and was robbing me of my sovereignty of being.  I began reading a book entitled “The Guru Papers” (which delivers a clear, anti-authority message) and the way it heightened my awareness was shocking to me. All I could see was all the insults to my own sense of authority in my life.  It was painful to read, but I kept reading it because I needed the awareness it was delivering to me.  Withdrawing from the experience took quite some time, in-part due to the fact that I had been chanting mantras for years.  The mantras served to wire me in to energetic aspects of the cult and it took a long time to sever those chords.  So, I think there is a chance that in embarking on titrating the Aripiprazole, I am also revisiting my state before the Aripiprazole.

 

I remain feeling better this morning (and still connected to my heart center), day 9 of my ½ of a 2 mg tablet and 1 mg liquid preparation.

[Cleerity]

I am still contemplating/seeking understanding as to why the dopey feeling and derealization came over me so profoundly, as I think it is important to have understanding.  

 

One possibility is that the medication is hitting me with an increased potency being I am taking a portion of it via liquid.  I read that the medication peaks in 3-5 hours.  It was approximately 2.5 - 3.5 hours after dosing) when that sensation came over my last Wednesday.

 

Another possibility is that I experienced a psychic perturbance/intrusion.  As sensitive and empathic as I am, this is a real possibility.  But, one of the first things I learned about being empathic is that once one knows they are an empath, they often begin blaming everything on the world outside themselves.  Fortunately, I also learned, years ago, that the first and most important thing for an empath to do (in my opinion) is to "heal" and "know thyself," else we can keep making errors in perception.  Besides, often times, it is a wound in ourselves that creates the empathic condition in the first place.  So, it makes the best sense for one to busy themselves with doing their own house-cleaning, first.  This is an approach I continue to follow when confronted with something that seems "not me."  I first look honestly inside of my self for possible causes.  If I cannot find the source of origination within me, I throw it off (kind of like a cat shaking water off its back ).  If it does not come back, it probably is not mine.  This had not persisted, nor come back.

 

On another note:  Today is Day 10 of taking 1/2 a 2mg tablet and 1 mg (1 ml) liquid dose of Aripiprazole.  And, so, I would like to ask the moderators:  Should I continue to complete my crossover to liquid, going full liquid, tomorrow?  Or, because I did have this disturbance, might it be recommended that I hang out where I am a little while longer?

[Shep]

53 minutes ago, Cleerity said:

On another note:  Today is Day 10 of taking 1/2 a 2mg tablet and 1 mg (1 ml) liquid dose of Aripiprazole.  And, so, I would like to ask the moderators:  Should I continue to complete my crossover to liquid, going full liquid, tomorrow?  Or, because I did have this disturbance, might it be recommended that I hang out where I am a little while longer?

 

It's hard to gage the intensity of the disturbance. 

 

You may want to check out Brassmonkey's definition of Withdrawal Normal.  If you feel you're at a state of Withdrawal Normal, you would continue to complete your crossover. However, if you really are struggling to function, you might want to give it a bit more time. 

 

 

On 6/28/2016 at 9:47 PM, brassmonkey said:

I see WDnormal as the overall baseline of where you are in general. The place you are when you're not feeling good, but you're not feeling bad. Sorta a rolling average of the past couple of months between the windows and waves.  Watching the level of WDnormal is a good indicator that things are improving.  Over time you should be seeing a raising of the standard for WDnormal.  So how you're feeling now is better than say six months ago. It changes very slowly but is a really good indicator.

 

 Many people have the idea that stability is feeling good again, when in fact it's feeling the same level of blah day after day with no big swings to the better or bad. When a person does a drop in dose there will be a corresponding increase in WD symptoms over the next few days.  These symptoms will resolve themselves over the following several weeks and return the person to a slightly raised baseline of discomfort. The time frame and severity are dependent on a huge number of factors and end up being unique to each individual.  But the pattern remains.  This is why paying attention to your WDnormal is very important.  It is also referred to as listening to your body.  After a drop in dose and the symptoms have resolved to WDnormal the person then should wait a couple of more weeks to let things really settle out (there are a lot of little unfelt changer still going on) before considering doing their next drop.

 

During that waiting time people may think that they're not doing anything and want to get on with it.  When in fact doing nothing is very proactive.  It's those little unfelt things that need to be finished up before the next step can be taken.  It's letting the glue harden, the paint dry, the cement cure.  The things that need to be complete before the path is safe to walk on again.  If these details are ignored then they start to pile up and compound each other, then somewhere down the line the foundation slips out from under us and the whole thing collapses.

 

 

[Cleerity]

57 minutes ago, Shep said:

It's hard to gage the intensity of the disturbance. 

 

You may want to check out Brassmonkey's definition of Withdrawal Normal.  If you feel you're at a state of Withdrawal Normal, you would continue to complete your crossover. However, if you really are struggling to function, you might want to give it a bit more time. 

 

Thanks for the response, Shep.

 

The experience was not very intense, and diminished in intensity over the three day period, my being back to normal the morning of the 4th day from onset.

 

What I understand you to be saying/estimating is that I was in fact “in withdrawal,” even though I was not taking a decreased dose.  This would imply that I was indeed metabolizing the liquid portion of my dose (50%) much more quickly - in order to produce the effect it did.  I can buy that.  It makes the best sense and provides the best explanation for the dopey and derealization affects.  I suspected this was the case, but what I read on the forum indicated an increased potency “might” be expected when switching over to liquid.  That’s what was leaving me wondering.  Just to be sure, I did earlier ask if an increased or diminished effect of potency was expected, but nobody responded.

 

I do feel 100% these past few days.

 

The captioned information above from Brassmonkey seems to imply waiting a few to several months.  I’m not at home where I can more easily read the full article from my desktop pc, but I shall when I return home.  But I must share that I’m not inclined to wait 6 or even 2 months  just to complete my tablet to liquid crossover - even if it it did produce a withdrawal effect in me.  Other guidance for “tapering” is 10% every 4-6 weeks.  I am guessing I am now past the hurdle of the first portion of the 50% crossover.  So, I am thinking what is wise and reasonable, in my crossover scenario, is to wait an additional 4 weeks (without symptoms) before going 100% liquid.  What say the moderators to this approach?

[Shep]

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

 

Yes, Brassmonkey was referring to people who are waiting to stabilize after making a reduction in their dose.

 

But if you are feeling upticks in symptoms during a crossover from tablet to liquid, it's still a good way to gage if you are at a place of stability to continue your crossover. 

 

There may be some fluctuations in the dose and the way your body is absorbing and processing liquid as opposed to tablet. 

 

9 minutes ago, Cleerity said:

I do feel 100% these past few days.

 

The captioned information above from Brassmonkey seems to imply waiting a few to several months.  I’m not at home where I can more easily read the full article from my desktop pc, but I shall when I return home.  But I must share that I’m not inclined to wait 6 or even 2 months  just to complete my tablet to liquid crossover - even if it it did produce a withdrawal effect in me.

 

No, you don't need to wait "a few to several months". He wrote "After a drop in dose and the symptoms have resolved to WDnormal the person then should wait a couple of more weeks to let things really settle out (there are a lot of little unfelt changer still going on) before considering doing their next drop."

 

But if your crossover is going well, no need to hold more than you already have. 

 

12 minutes ago, Cleerity said:

I do feel 100% these past few days.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Cleerity said:

Other guidance for “tapering” is 10% every 4-6 weeks.  I am guessing I am now past the hurdle of the first portion of the 50% crossover.  So, I am thinking what is wise and reasonable, in my crossover scenario, is to wait an additional 4 weeks (without symptoms) before going 100% liquid.  What say the moderators to this approach?

 

 

It sounds like your symptoms were mild and manageable, so continuing on with your crossover makes sense. 

 

From your post, I wasn't sure how badly you were suffering with what you described as a "psychic perturbance/intrusion", so thanks for clarifying. 

 

You're doing really well - 100% is excellent.

[Cleerity]

Thanks, again, Shep!

 

Yes, truly, the symptoms were mild and very manageable for me.  Curious, more than anything else, because I was not expecting a withdrawal effect.

 

As I feel certain I am now 100%, I will “drive on” (as we said in the military) with my crossover.  This time, however, I will know that I might again expect to experience a withdrawal effect...and so be ready to meet and abide with those (hopefully again mild) “perturbations.” I will continue to post my progress here.

[Cleerity]

Hello, Everyone.  

 

Just a quick update:  I am on day 6 of 100% liquid dosing of Aripiprazole on my crossover from tablet to liquid.  This time, so far (as compared to the first 50%), I am not  experiencing any symtpoms.  That's good.

 

On another note, I am still waiting for the official offer on my new job.  I did say the government moves like pond water, didn't I?!  

 

I followed up with the Human Resources of the new agency last week and all is well and still in the works, just waiting...waiting...waiting.  I seriously doubt I will start sooner than Mid-January - definitely not before the Christmas and New Year holidays (because most offices are at skeleton staffing during the holiday, so there would likely not be anyone to train me).  The hiring agency also would give me enough time to allow me to give my present agency at least a couple weeks' notice.  I will know for sure once I receive the written offer.  

 

In light of the wait, I am considering maybe making at least one 10% drop of the Aripiprazole before starting the new role.  I think I will have enough time to stabilize with at least this one drop, before going into a hold while settling into my new role.

 

I will have finished 10 days on the 2 mg Aripiprazole at 100% liquid as of this coming Thursday, December 14.  

 

As always, input is most welcome.

 

Cleerity

[TreeElf]

Hey Cleerity, you're doing great. Really glad to hear things are, for the most part, going as smoothly as possible. I can't offer much in terms of the depersonalistion episode or its origin, but I do know now that nothing surprises me in withdrawal! (Well, I say that now, but it will probably find a new way to surprise me haha).

 

Your experiences with the cult/guru stuff sounds really scary. In fact it was the source of a huge OCD fear of mine last year, but thankfully not a reality in the way yours was. To have come out the other side of that in the way you have is really something. And I'd say it's bound to have ripple effects - I've had so many issues from before meds and during just pop up out of nowhere in withdrawal. So maybe this had something to do with it. Can totally relate about the empath thing too - I don't want to blame all my externals on how I feel, but it's hard when withdrawal makes you so sensitive. It's like having your filters ripped away even more than they usually are.

 

But it sounds like you're on the right track, I hope things continue to go well for you over Christmas and New Year

[Cleerity]

Hello Abby! 

 

Crazy that after I posted this morning, I had a return of the same symptoms from my first 50% cross-over, only not to the same degree as the first time around.  Perhaps the perception of reduced intensity is due to the fact that I was somewhat expecting it this time.  But, the first time, it happened on day 5.  So, being today was day 6, I thought all was well on this second leg of the cross-over.  Not so.  I have just been observing...abiding patiently.  I trust it will pass, as it did the first time.  I always think of the lyrics from the Beatles song, "When I find myself in times of troubles, Mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be...let it be...let it be..."

 

The cult/guru experience was very scary...and very hurtful/traumatic for me.  I saw the dark underbelly of spirituality and learned that all that glitters is not always gold.  There is a TON of shadow in spirituality!  Seeing the depths of that so clearly was frightening and eye opening, to say the least.  While it is definitely not something I want to repeat, I do feel I am stronger for having been through it, wiser and more discerning.  

 

On empathy...  When one has this disposition, it is definitely something to be aware of, because it does come into play.  From years of working with me, my analyst knows that I am an empath.  And, just this past  week, we were looking at my dreams when she exclaimed, "Talk about being an empath!"  Mind you, I did not tell her I thought the dream was pointing to my empathic nature.  It was just from her knowledge of what I was involved with in my life that enabled her to clearly see the dream was alerting me to the fact that I was taking on the burden of another.  This is but one reason why I like to have a close connection with my unconscious.  My dreams really help me to see what is going on with/inside of me.

 

On another note, especially because I am again experiencing symptoms, I think I will follow the advice Gridley gave to you and wait until after the holidays and impending job change before starting to titrate down on the Aripiprazole.

 

Thank you for stopping in and thank you for the well wishes!

 

Cleerity

 

 

 

[Cleerity]

Time for reading has been competing with my home refinishing tasks (which have been winning), but I have finally gotten 'round to some reading of Anatomy of an Epidemic.  I must say it is very eye-opening.  Kind of makes me feel like I have had my head stuck in the sand regarding the ignorance of psychiatry's pill pushing propensity.

 

After the symptoms kicked in yesterday, I'm still feeling a little loopy this morning.  Will see what the day brings.

[Shep]

22 hours ago, Cleerity said:

In light of the wait, I am considering maybe making at least one 10% drop of the Aripiprazole before starting the new role.  I think I will have enough time to stabilize with at least this one drop, before going into a hold while settling into my new role.

 

I will have finished 10 days on the 2 mg Aripiprazole at 100% liquid as of this coming Thursday, December 14.  

 

As always, input is most welcome.

 

Please let us know how you're feeling after you're at that 100% liquid mark. If all is going well, then making a decrease sounds reasonable. 

 

If you have any hesitancy about it, you could go to 5% as a more conservative option.

 

Or you may want to consider the Brassmonkey Slide: 

 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

You could modify it to fit your preferred taper speed. 

[Cleerity]

Hi Shep!  And thank you!  

 

I really appreciate your response and support.  

 

While I will move smartly, thanks to the advice and support of this forum, I just can't see "burning daylight," so to speak.   So, I am definitely inclined to make a reduction before I land in my new work role.  

 

I really look forward to the day this medication is out of my system and so want to be taking steps in that direction, so that I may regain more of my natural self, sooner than later.  I know my holiday pattern and do not expect it to present any significant emotional stress. On the contrary, it will be filled with the loving companionship of my son and two grandchildren.  For this, I am thankful.  

 

Thank you for the link!  I will read up more on the tapering options and present what feels a good choice to me, so that I might get further advice/input before proceeding - "AFTER" I have reported in again with how I am doing when I complete my 10 day transition to 100% liquid.  

 

I truly appreciate all the valuable information/advice and priceless support provided on this site and want to follow it.  It would be foolish not to.  I am grateful.

 

I feel like I know what Benzo withdrawal looks like given the 50% drop I did with the clonazepam before finding this site.  But, on the Aripiprazole, I really don't know what to expect, aside from my experience thus far with the crossover.  With this second leg of my two 50% liquid portion crossovers, I am not (did not) experience depersonalization/derealization.  Yesterday, it was a spacey feeling, tearfulness, and tiredness.  This morning and today, I decided to call it feeling "loopy."  I was "on task" at work, despite not feeling my normal self.  Yesterday must have been the peak, for the symptoms (I can tell) are already diminishing.  

 

I shall check in again Friday, the day following my completion of 10 days at 100% liquid.  Thank you, again.

 

Cleerity

 

 

[Cleerity]

Hello:  Aside from being tired yesterday (which may or may not have been related to the liquid Aripirpazole change), I was back to my normal self yesterday, without feeling loopy or anything else.  I also remain focused in my heart center.  

 

Because I was tired when I arrived back home from work yesterday afternoon, I did not do anything around the house.  So, I found it to be a good time to lounge and read more from Anatomy of an Epidemic.  I know most of you already know and have heard it said thousands of times, but please allow me to also chime in and say how headless and heedless the AMA, NIMH, FDA and modern psychiatry are!  I am sure I missed a few more governing bodies.  Wow!  It is absolutely unconscionable and criminal the way so-called "anti"-psychotics were pushed off on American consumers when all that scientists really knew is that they robbed lab rats of their critical faculties.  And, now I have read it, NO evidence of chemical imbalances in our brains.  The writers of psychology textbooks should be ashamed of themselves!  They are perpetuating a lie and pushing out countless psychology graduates who believe the lie and pass it on to unaware patients who end up being drugged out of their good senses.  I think this book is a must-read for anyone coming off psychotropic drugs (a must read for any American consumer).  It is putting me in touch with my own healthy sense of anger regarding medications.  I have half the mind to bring this book with me when I see my psychiatrist again, to ask her if she is aware of the history of the birth of psychotropic medications!

[Shep]

Sounds like you're in a good place with your education in these drugs to read and post in the Media and in the Events sections where we have a lot of discussions on these issues.

 

In the media

 

Events, controversies, actions

 

56 minutes ago, Cleerity said:

I have half the mind to bring this book with me when I see my psychiatrist again, to ask her if she is aware of the history of the birth of psychotropic medications!

 

Check out some of the threads from people who've brought this information to their doctors and wrote about it in the Events section. Here is one: 

 

Template Letter Of Evidence To Doctors/Psychiatrists - feel free to use!

 

Another thing to bring to their attention is their own medical journals because Psychiatric Times has run some articles on this issue:

 

Psychiatric Times - Online Communities for Drug Withdrawal: What Can We Learn?

 

 

Antidepressant Withdrawal, Online Data, and a Bottom Line

 

The only caution is to not burn any bridges that you may need with your prescribing doctor to get your prescriptions. It may help to read the threads on "how to talk to doctors" so you can, as they say in social justice circles, "meet them where they are": 

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?
 
What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

 

As you can see, they've got a long way to go to get educated. 

[Cleerity]

@Shep Thanks for all the links, Shep!  I will be doing some reading.  I am definitely going to carry Anatomy of an Epidemic with me when I see my psychiatrist next week.  I will open the conversation by simply asking her if she has ever read it.  I must share my new-found knowledge with her.  To do otherwise would be to perpetuate the lie with her.  I won't do that.  I owe it to myself not to.  I will keep my stove on simmer, so as to not burn the bridge.  

[Cleerity]

Hello,

 

Just posting an update, which I initially said I would make yesterday, but the day brought some news concerning the anticipated new work role which was a bit of an upset. It turns out the agency only wants to take me on as temporary with a “chance” at becoming permanent.  It is not a risk I will take, as I am about to have career status through the present agency.  I would be foolish to walk away from that with no guarantee.  The good news is I have not burnt any bridges where I am and, because my performance is tried and true in this work role, I will feel more comfortable as I continue to work on my tapering.

 

I am going to make a recap of where I am with the 2 mg Aripiprazole tablet to liquid crossover…

 

1^stleg of Crossover - (Nov. 24, 2018 – Dec. 3, 2018):  1/2 a 2 mg tab + 1 ml liquid @ 1 mg/ml

 

Symptoms started on Day 5.  They were: Mild dissociation (derealization); some cognitive fog/confusion, and fatigue.  The symptoms diminished in intensity over a 3-day period and I felt back to my normal, productive self by Day 8.

 

2^ndleg of Crossover - (Dec. 4, 2018 – Dec. 13, 2018):  2 ml liquid @ 1 mg/ml

 

Symptoms started on Day 6.  They were:  Feeling of being spacey/loopy, maybe a milder form of the dissociative affect and cognitive fog experienced during the first leg of crossover.  It initially caused me to feel distracted as I tried to define/understand it.  Then, I just “let it be.”  I was also teary/watery-eyed that first day of the arrival of symptoms.  The fatigue was greater than on the 1^stleg. The spacey feeling was gone by Day 8. What continued longer was a feeling of being tired/lethargic/sleepy.  This continued through Day 10.  Also, this time, I began experiencing some facial tics, twitching of the fine muscles around my right cheek and eye which lasted for two days, starting on Day 9. They were present when I woke in the morning and were near constant that first day.

 

Cleerity

[Cleerity]

I was not quite finished with sharing my thoughts when I posted this morning.  And, now, I have a bit more to say.  First, I have not recovered to 100% since the 2nd leg of my Aripiprazole crossover.  I am still tired and dopey feeling.  I seemed to feel not as tired yesterday, so I thought it was subsiding.  It is not.  I am also irritable.  I was tempted to count irritability as a symptom the other day, but I instead blamed it on the tiredness.  But, I sure lost my cool when out shopping this afternoon.  Normally, I am patient and tolerant.  Not so today.  Things are seriously grating on my nerves.  All I wanted to do was hurry to get home where I might feel more peace and comfort.  

 

What more I wanted to share is that because the symptoms from the 2nd 10 days of my crossover to liquid are hanging on longer, I have no intention to make a cut yet. I need to gain a clearer idea of how this is affecting and is going to affect me as I continue forward.  @Shep  When I do make I cut, I think a 5% cut is the way to go.  I rather start out small.  If I find a 5% cut very easy to do, I could then try a 10% cut, right?

 

I did not expect the crossing over to affect me as much as it has/is.  Because I wanted something to compare myself with, I have googled online but cannot find a clear set of withdrawal symptoms associated with Aripiprazole.  This page on Aripiprazole Withdrawal does give a list of symptoms.  It seems, however, that my symptoms "may" more closely match side effects and not withdrawal.  So, I am left wondering.

[Shep]

On 12/15/2018 at 4:31 PM, Cleerity said:

What more I wanted to share is that because the symptoms from the 2nd 10 days of my crossover to liquid are hanging on longer, I have no intention to make a cut yet. I need to gain a clearer idea of how this is affecting and is going to affect me as I continue forward.  @Shep  When I do make I cut, I think a 5% cut is the way to go.  I rather start out small.  If I find a 5% cut very easy to do, I could then try a 10% cut, right?

 

 

You may want to use the Brassmonkey Slide:

 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

This is a gentler to your nervous system because instead of making one large monthly reductions, you divide it up into 4 smaller weekly reductions.  This provides you with a bit more control.  You could adjust it for a 5% taper as follows:

 

            Week 1 reduce 1.25%

            Week 2 reduce an additional 1.25% (for a total of 2.5%)

            Week 3 reduce an additional 1.25% (for a total of 3.75%)

            Week 4 reduce an additional 1.25% (for a total of 5%)

            Weeks 5,6 Hold at the last reduction level

 

For more on micro-tapers, please see:

 

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

 

On 12/15/2018 at 4:31 PM, Cleerity said:

I did not expect the crossing over to affect me as much as it has/is.  Because I wanted something to compare myself with, I have googled online but cannot find a clear set of withdrawal symptoms associated with Aripiprazole.  This page on Aripiprazole Withdrawal does give a list of symptoms.  It seems, however, that my symptoms "may" more closely match side effects and not withdrawal.  So, I am left wondering.

 

It could be either side effects or withdrawal or a combination of both. Crossing over can cause waves in the waters, even though you're not tapering yet. 

 

Also, receiving bad news such as the recent information concerning your job can jolt the nervous system. External stress can be much more difficult to process during withdrawal. 

 

But it sounds like you made a wise decision. Perhaps continue holding over the holiday season and in January, see how you're doing. In the meantime, read over the threads on micro-tapering and see if the Brassmonkey Slide is a good fit for you. That way you can be prepared for when you do decide it's time to taper. 

[Cleerity]

 

12 hours ago, Shep said:

Perhaps continue holding over the holiday season and in January, see how you're doing. In the meantime, read over the threads on micro-tapering and see if the Brassmonkey Slide is a good fit for you. That way you can be prepared for when you do decide it's time to taper.

 

Hi Shep.  Thank you.  

 

I will hold through the holiday.  

 

For practicality's sake, I would have preferred just making a 5% or 10% cut and riding that out.  But, I also want to have as smooth a go of my reductions (withdrawal) as possible.

 

When I am ready, I think I will use the Brass Monkey Slide, but I will also read more on micro-tapering.  Thanks again for the links.  I will make my decision over the holiday.  

 

12 hours ago, Shep said:

It could be either side effects or withdrawal or a combination of both. Crossing over can cause waves in the waters, even though you're not tapering yet. 

 

What's strange is that I always feel okay in the morning, after I wake, and the symptoms appear a few hours after I have taken then liquid Aripiprazole solution.  I am going to watch it more closely.  The crossover has definitely caused some waves.

 

12 hours ago, Shep said:

Also, receiving bad news such as the recent information concerning your job can jolt the nervous system. External stress can be much more difficult to process during withdrawal. 

 

Yes, I am still licking my wound.  It was really an insult, especially because I believe the reason they only wanted to take me on as temporary is because I am a disabled veteran (and they know that).  It was like they were saying, we are not sure of you and we want the insurance to back out if you do not work out for us.  The offer is still open, but I am going to tell them today (tactfully) what I think of their offer, which will hopefully give me some closure.  

 

   

[RubyJ]

Hi, Cleer -- I keep reading your updates and thinking of things I should say but I've been sort of frantic trying to get ready for Christmas with an unexpected funeral (today actually) that I had to take a plane trip for.  I missed my plane, though, and suddenly the pressure has abated!  Where to start . . .

 

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 4:39 PM, Cleerity said:

So, being today was day 6, I thought all was well on this second leg of the cross-over.  Not so.  I have just been observing...abiding patiently.  I trust it will pass, as it did the first time.  I always think of the lyrics from the Beatles song, "When I find myself in times of troubles, Mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be...let it be...let it be..."

 

My reactions to tapering down usually happen on the 6th day as well, although it can vary -- I've had it be day 5 or 7 but not much more variation than that.  I try to also take that attitude -- I know what it is and it will abate.  I always think of the Beatles song too xD

 

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:24 AM, Cleerity said:

I read Edted's topic, the man that was helping his son with aripiprazole withdrawal, and was sorry to see the topic end without knowing how things turned out for his son...hopefully, good!  

 

I also read that topic, since, as you pointed out, there's not a lot of data on Abilify withdrawal and was also sad to see that it cut off where it did.  I really hope things went well for his son, too.

 

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 6:18 AM, Cleerity said:

What I understand you to be saying/estimating is that I was in fact “in withdrawal,” even though I was not taking a decreased dose.  This would imply that I was indeed metabolizing the liquid portion of my dose (50%) much more quickly - in order to produce the effect it did.  I can buy that.  It makes the best sense and provides the best explanation for the dopey and derealization affects.  I suspected this was the case, but what I read on the forum indicated an increased potency “might” be expected when switching over to liquid.  That’s what was leaving me wondering.  Just to be sure, I did earlier ask if an increased or diminished effect of potency was expected, but nobody responded.

 

That was the experience I had as well -- that switching to liquid caused WD symptoms.  Sorry I didn't respond at the time -- my thoughts are that, as you mention, the drug is metabolized differently, and that alone causes a disruption in what the brain is expecting from the drug.  Maybe more potent or less -- or just different.  Different appears to be enough to have an effect, if you know what I mean?

 

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 8:03 AM, Cleerity said:

Curious, more than anything else, because I was not expecting a withdrawal effect.

 

I'm sorry that I wasn't more explicit in my comments to you before you started -- I thought I had warned you that it was a possibility

 

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:27 PM, Cleerity said:

With this second leg of my two 50% liquid portion crossovers, I am not (did not) experience depersonalization/derealization.  Yesterday, it was a spacey feeling, tearfulness, and tiredness.  This morning and today, I decided to call it feeling "loopy."  I was "on task" at work, despite not feeling my normal self.  Yesterday must have been the peak, for the symptoms (I can tell) are already diminishing.  

 

I never experienced depersonalization myself (I was going to type depersonalization personally and realized that was too many 'persons', heh) but tearful and tired for sure.  More in a second.

 

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 2:31 PM, Cleerity said:

I did not expect the crossing over to affect me as much as it has/is.  Because I wanted something to compare myself with, I have googled online but cannot find a clear set of withdrawal symptoms associated with Aripiprazole.  This page on Aripiprazole Withdrawal does give a list of symptoms.  It seems, however, that my symptoms "may" more closely match side effects and not withdrawal.  So, I am left wondering.

 

I could never find a clear list -- probably because there's no official data.  If you want my laundry list to compare with that of others, it's:  severe anxiety, tearfulness, compulsive behavior, mania, depression, insomnia, irritability and general emotional sensitivity, and this awful 'anxiety upon waking' symptom that basically means the second I wake up I am struck with sudden, causeless anxiety.  Thankfully during a normal taper the symptoms are only severe the first one or two days and dissipate by six or seven days.  I also don't have all of the symptoms each time if I'm tapering slowly enough.  I think I also do get headaches but they're not terrible.  Insomnia and anxiety are the only two that are on the list in your link.  I know that both of those symptoms are listed on other sites I have found, so they are likely common.

 

8 hours ago, Cleerity said:

Yes, I am still licking my wound.  It was really an insult, especially because I believe the reason they only wanted to take me on as temporary is because I am a disabled veteran (and they know that).

 

That's really terrible.  I'm so sorry for the bad news.  Even though it's 'against the law' to discriminate against people with disabilities, people still find ways, don't they.  Your qualifications are what's truly important.  Good luck refusing the offer today. 

 

My bad news in November made my WD symptoms from my taper so much worse, so I think you are wise to wait through the holiday to adjust dosage.

 

I think if I had just forced my procrastinating self to respond when I first read your posts, it would have taken less time -- and less space  let's see if I learn my lesson this time.

 

I was glad to read that you have people to spend the holidays with -- I hope you have a lovely time <3

[Cleerity]

3 hours ago, RubyJ said:

Hi, Cleer -- I keep reading your updates and thinking of things I should say but I've been sort of frantic trying to get ready for Christmas with an unexpected funeral (today actually) that I had to take a plane trip for.  I missed my plane, though, and suddenly the pressure has abated!  Where to start . . .

 

Hi Ruby!  

 

Great many thanks for your stopping in to say and share all that you have!  Sorry that you missed your plane... but happy to read that you handled it well.

 

I am sorry that we both ever started taking this medication, but it is good to have a fellow Aripiprazole/Abilify traveler!  Being able to compare notes is priceless to me.  It helps me to feel not so crazy and to question less what I have been experiencing.  I should have reached out sooner to bounce things off you... 

 

I am trying to type through/over/under my cat, Khaya, who is standing atop my desk, demanding I pay attention to her.  Every time I reach for the mouse or keyboard, she head-butts my hand(s) so that I will stroke her instead!  

 

3 hours ago, RubyJ said:

My reactions to tapering down usually happen on the 6th day as well, although it can vary -- I've had it be day 5 or 7 but not much more variation than that.

 

Seems that I have the same pattern.

 

3 hours ago, RubyJ said:

On 12/1/2018 at 6:24 AM, Cleerity said:

I read Edted's topic, the man that was helping his son with aripiprazole withdrawal, and was sorry to see the topic end without knowing how things turned out for his son...hopefully, good!  

 

I also read that topic, since, as you pointed out, there's not a lot of data on Abilify withdrawal and was also sad to see that it cut off where it did.  I really hope things went well for his son, too.

 

I also hope things turned out well for him.  I was very moved by Gia's very insightful suggestion that the son move out from under his father's roof to help him find his freedom - and hence, maybe, reduce the tendency for a repeat psychotic episode.  For, I know the truth of that propensity stemming from the parental imago, which can be, at once, both benevolent and malevolent.    

 

3 hours ago, RubyJ said:

I never experienced depersonalization myself (I was going to type depersonalization personally and realized that was too many 'persons', heh) but tearful and tired for sure.

 

Depersonalization is a strange feeling. I know it from my past (as I have mentioned).  On that first portion of the crossover, that is the closest I can come to describing what I was feeling.  Though, light-headed and confused also approximates the tone of those moments.  It was very weird feeling, falling over me like an aura or veil of befuddlement.  I just kept pressing through it to assert myself as real/present.

 

3 hours ago, RubyJ said:

I could never find a clear list -- probably because there's no official data.  If you want my laundry list to compare with that of others, it's:  severe anxiety, tearfulness, compulsive behavior, mania, depression, insomnia, irritability and general emotional sensitivity, and this awful 'anxiety upon waking' symptom that basically means the second I wake up I am struck with sudden, causeless anxiety.

 

Thank you so much for sharing.  Anxiety has not struck me (yet), but I am also taking Mirtazapine and Clonazepam at bedtime, which are both brakes and may be helping to keep anxiety at bay (so far).  But I definitely count fatigue and tearfulness (which I think is part of emotional sensitivity) as symptoms.  I think you are right about the lack of official data.  So many sites simply say that the medication should be withdrawn slowly in the field where they would otherwise list withdrawal symptoms.  I do not count the link I shared as being accurate, but it was something to look at.  

 

3 hours ago, RubyJ said:

Thankfully during a normal taper the symptoms are only severe the first one or two days and dissipate by six or seven days.  I also don't have all of the symptoms each time if I'm tapering slowly enough.  I think I also do get headaches but they're not terrible.

 

The first leg of my crossover was like that, a few days of stronger symptoms, then diminishing each day after.   On the second leg, for me, they just held on longer.  Today, however, was a much better day.  But, it is very clear to me that the dose is peaking in me at 3-4 hour mark after ingesting it, then slowly reducing in intensity as the day goes on.  Tiredness sets in at about the 7 hour mark.  I count it a plus, though, that I can make these observations with the liquid, whereas I could not when previously taking the tablet every day.  I am also having intermittent headache pains.  Instead of being constant, it feels more like something is tweaking in my brain.  

 

3 hours ago, RubyJ said:

That's really terrible.  I'm so sorry for the bad news.  Even though it's 'against the law' to discriminate against people with disabilities, people still find ways, don't they.  Your qualifications are what's truly important.  Good luck refusing the offer today.

 

Thank you, Ruby.  I "am" more than highly qualified for the position!  Yes, they surely do find ways to discriminate.  Because they presented the offer to me impersonally (in an email), I responded by email.  Very professionally, but also very pointedly.  My supervisor was more than happy to learn that I will remain with him and is even going to give me a step-increase in pay.  So, some consolation there.  When I told other coworkers that I was remaining in place, they were also very happy - I even collected a few heartfelt hugs and spied some happy eyes!  It is very good to receive this kind of affirmation.  I will stay where my worth is validated and appreciated.

 

I feel like I may have neglected to say/respond to something...

 

I also wish you a wonderful holiday!  

 

"Thank you," again, for sharing.  The support truly means a lot to me!

 

Cleer

 

P.S.  Coming back to add:  Yes, it is very clear to me that we metabolize the liquid differently!

[Cleerity]

Hello,

 

I am feeling much better, back to my normal self since switching over to 100% liquid Aripiprazole.

 

I saw my psychiatrist yesterday and did take Anatomy of an Epidemic with me.  She saw the book which I had set on the side table and asked, "What do you have there?"  So, I held it up so she could see the cover as I talked about the "interesting things I was learning" and went on to share how researchers have time and again debunked the chemical imbalance myth.  I then went on to talk about the birth of psychiatric medications.  I could tell she was a little uncomfortable.  She did say that she believed that we (meaning psychiatry) have a tendency to think we know a lot more than we actually do.  She took the book in her own hands and wrote down the title and author's name on her note pad.  Then, after another relatively short amount of conversation, she switched the conversation back to me and how I am doing.  That was cool with me.  I had no agenda other than to make her aware of what I was now aware of.  So, mission accomplished.  I hope she might research the book and perhaps read it.  I may never know.  But at least now she knows that I am a much more aware client/consumer.

 

On another note, the agency with which I applied for the job, phoned me bright and early the morning after I sent the message declining their offer for the temporary appointment.  She said they did not want to lose me and offered to hire me under the veterans recruitment act (VRA) authority.  It turns out that what happened is they waited too long to be able to hire me from the competitive announcement and wanted to take me on non-competitively (without having to publicly announce the job and go through all the protocols again).  This VRA appointment is to a permanent position and maintains full benefits.  I will have to serve a probationary period, though, so that contains some risk.  However, I have never failed in any job I have ever held, so (in this regard) I am gambling only against myself.  That's a risk I will take.  The job will be a promotion and will open more doors for me.  I am in process of accepting the offer now. 

 

Cleerity

[RubyJ]

That's great news about the job!

[Cleerity]

On 12/21/2018 at 1:52 AM, RubyJ said:

That's great news about the job!

 

Thank you, Ruby!  I admit I am not excited about the probationary period.  And, it also would have been good to stay put in my current role just for the sake of working on reducing my meds.  Learning a new role and adapting to a new environment is very stressful in itself.  Because I must remain stable, this is all the more reason I must titer the Aripiprazole "slowly!"  

 

Question for the moderators:  Can I still add tags to my topic?  I looked for a way to do so, but cannot find it.  

[Shep]

On 12/17/2018 at 6:00 AM, Cleerity said:

When I am ready, I think I will use the Brass Monkey Slide, but I will also read more on micro-tapering.  Thanks again for the links.  I will make my decision over the holiday.  

 

1 hour ago, Cleerity said:

Thank you, Ruby!  I admit I am not excited about the probationary period.  And, it also would have been good to stay put in my current role just for the sake of working on reducing my meds.  Learning a new role and adapting to a new environment is very stressful in itself.  Because I must remain stable, this is all the more reason I must titer the Aripiprazole "slowly!"  

 

I'm glad you are thinking about the Brassmonkey Slide. Due to your added obligations for your new job, the slower you can go, the better. You may find this thread helpful  - as well as reassuring -  that the slow method is best for those wishing to achieve as much functionality as possible: 

 

The slowness of slow tapers (micro-taper)

 

 

1 hour ago, Cleerity said:

Question for the moderators:  Can I still add tags to my topic?  I looked for a way to do so, but cannot find it.  

 

In the upper left-hand side of your screen, you'll see a +Add Tag button underneath your username. Click on that and you can add in your tags. (You have to be logged in to do this.)

 

 

 

[Cleerity]

22 hours ago, Shep said:

I'm glad you are thinking about the Brassmonkey Slide. Due to your added obligations for your new job, the slower you can go, the better. You may find this thread helpful  - as well as reassuring -  that the slow method is best for those wishing to achieve as much functionality as possible: 

 

The slowness of slow tapers (micro-taper)

 

@Shep  Given that stability is important to me and I experienced the symptoms I did just with crossing over, I do think the Brassmonkey Slide Micro-Taper is the smartest route for me.

 

Thank you for the link on the slowness of slow tapers.  I read the whole thing.  It was both helpful and reassuring.  Slow will give me much more predictability and control.  

 

I have been trying to approximate how much of a dose reduction I might have been experiencing during the crossover, but that's a hard guess.  What is sure is that it has been a change to my system.  Either a reduced effect, or the medication is hitting me harder because it is being metabolized differently.  

 

Before the liquid, I was not aware of the fact that it peaks in me at the 3 hour mark - and that tiredness set in at about the 7 hour mark.  Now, I am.  I can literally feel it in my brain as it reaches peak level.  On the first leg of the crossover, it was what I described as derealization/depersonalization.  Later, I described it to Ruby as a veil of befuddlement that fell over me.  It was and remains quite noticeable.  I guess that now I am just used to it and so weathering it better.  Knowing it is going to effect me this way, I dislike even taking the medication now, because I always feel better in the morning, prior to dosing.  

 

I earlier said that I was back to normal.  For the most part, I am ... but I do remain more tired at the end of the day than I used to be.  And, there is actually still some lingering irritation/agitation that hits me between the 3-5 hour mark.  Last weekend, it resulted in me publicly raising my voice at the store (quite loud) when I had to wait overly long on a customer service representative.  The agitation was present again yesterday, but to a far lesser degree.  

 

When I do start my taper, I am going to do just as you suggested and begin the first week with just a .0125 dose reduction.  

 

22 hours ago, Shep said:

In the upper left-hand side of your screen, you'll see a +Add Tag button underneath your username. Click on that and you can add in your tags. (You have to be logged in to do this.)

 

I do not see the +Add Tag button.  Is it something I only had a chance to do when I first created my topic?  Is it something only the moderators now can see/use?  

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

[RubyJ]

I usually take my dose of Abilify at around 8 pm -- and I typically go to bed at midnight.  I'm not sure I ever noticed a change in mood tied to it but now I'm curious and going to pay extra attention the next few nights.

 

3 hours ago, Cleerity said:

I do not see the +Add Tag button.  Is it something I only had a chance to do when I first created my topic?  Is it something only the moderators now can see/use?  

 

I went to my own topic, and I don't have the +Add Tag button under my username either.  The tag I added when creating the topic is there, and that is all.  So maybe it is something only mods can see?

[Cleerity]

2 hours ago, RubyJ said:

 

I usually take my dose of Abilify at around 8 pm -- and I typically go to bed at midnight.  I'm not sure I ever noticed a change in mood tied to it but now I'm curious and going to pay extra attention the next few nights

 

 

Hi Ruby!  I was taking the tablet at 0630 each day.  Since I started the liquid, I have been dosing at 0500, while still home.  My work day starts at 0600, but it doesn’t get too busy or noisome until about 0900, when the rest of the world is also awake/at work.  My coworker doesn’t come in until 0900.  So, during these quiet morning hours of working mostly alone, I have had a great opportunity to observe myself.  As I also start my mornings slow on the weekends, I am likewise able to observe.  

 

When I was taking the tablet, I was mostly oblivious to its effect.  So, even though I don’t like how the liquid is affecting me, at least I am now aware.  I count that a plus.  Awareness is powerful. 

 

You know, I could also describe that veil of befuddlement as likened to a stupor...something antipsychotics are known to induce.  I did not like it!  If nothing else, this crossover experience has helped me to more clearly see what this medication has been doing to me.  I look forward to the day I can say I am no longer taking it and have regained my faculties!

 

I will be interested to know if you are also able to observe the effect of this medication as it sets in/peaks.

 

Cleer

[Shep]

 

On 12/24/2018 at 8:32 AM, Cleerity said:

I do not see the +Add Tag button.  Is it something I only had a chance to do when I first created my topic?  Is it something only the moderators now can see/use?  

 

Sorry about that, Cleerity. I wasn't aware it was a mod feature. I think perhaps the tag feature is available when you first post and then it cannot be added to or edited after that. 

 

I went ahead and added tags for you. Please let me know if I missed anything. 

[Cleerity]

On 12/27/2018 at 4:09 AM, Shep said:

I went ahead and added tags for you. Please let me know if I missed anything. 

 

Thank you, Shep.  Looks like you got them all.   I appreciate it!

 

LOL ... 8 tags makes me look like quite the druggie!

[Shep]

6 hours ago, Cleerity said:

LOL ... 8 tags makes me look like quite the druggie!

 

Nope, only 4 drugs - I listed both the generic and the brand names, as we have members using both and searching for both. 

 

I came off a cocktail of 6 drugs, so no judgement here. 

[Cleerity]

4 hours ago, Shep said:

 

Nope, only 4 drugs - I listed both the generic and the brand names, as we have members using both and searching for both. 

 

Kewl beans!  That works.

 

4 hours ago, Shep said:

I came off a cocktail of 6 drugs, so no judgement here.

 

It is encouraging to know that you came off such a cocktail.  It gives me hope.  Thank you.

 

I cannot tell you how many pages in Anatomy of an Epidemic I have dog-eared!  Thinking here of the Aripiprazole and all the studies that have proven the iatrogenic damage caused by antipsychotic medications - that they actually make patients worse.  Just a "depression add-on," I was told.  Having read what I did, I was feeling very concerned for myself.  Eight years of use and I wonder if I might have irreversible damage.

 

On a more general note:  I feel I have leveled out with the aripiprazole tablet to liquid crossover.  I am inclined to make my first step down beginning tomorrow morning.   

 

I am choosing tomorrow, because that would put days 5-6-7 on next Fri-Sat-Sun.  I am off those three days.  Days 5 and 6 on the crossover is when the symptoms manifested, so I will be home.  

 

But I want to do something a little bit different than already discussed, something less than a weekly .0125 reduction.  

 

I am using a 1 ml. syringe, currently taking 2 ml. solution at a 1mg/ml concentration.

 

The one ml. syringes have 5 divisions between each 10th (or .10)...  

 

If I were to step down by .0125 each week, I would be forced to try divide the full breadth of the 5 divisions into quarters.  I don't think I would be very accurate with that.

 

What I can do with greater accuracy is step down by .01 each week for 5 weeks, then hold for 2 weeks.  

 

So, at the end of 5 weeks of tapering, I will have reduced by .05%.  Thus, my drug burden will be reduced from 2 mg to 1.9 mg.  

 

This will give me an even longer go of reducing this medication, but it will be more accurate and also give me the stability I need.

 

I am anticipating another 4-5 weeks before starting the new work role.  So, It might be that I only make one or two .01 decreases before going into a longer hold while I grow roots in my new work area.  

 

At least I will feel I have made a start and am gaining some traction.

 

As always, input is most welcome.

 

Thank you.