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Gurgle: 18 years of SSRIs - citalopram, sertraline withdrawal advice please

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Gurgle

Female. Anxious disposition even as child. Did well making friends and enjoying life as a child. Struggled with getting to sleep though, due to worries. Displayed some ocd behaviour in teens ( maybe even before).

 

Took and E aged 16 - big mistake. This exacerbated my anxiety and induced subsequent panic attacks.

 

Age 19 ish ( 2001) was put on seroxat (not sure on dosage -it a strange time; experienced a lot of weird goings on with feeling weird, insomnia, - cant remember if this was before or on starting seroxat). started to feel better while on Seroxat. After a year or two, ( age 21) the doc, due to reports of suicidal behaviour on seroxat, decided to swap me to Citalopram ( 20mg i think).

 

On starting Citalopram, I became very suicidal! Not sure why I wasn't swapped back but I perservered and must have evened out. Took Citalopram for 2 years and I felt good. Met my, now, husbandat 23 and thought life was brill and I did not need Citalopram anymore. Didn't follow any kind of tapering ( didnt know I needed to) and must have stopped cold turkey. Felt very suicidal so went back on Citalopram and evened out again. Must have cut fown to 10 mg and stayed on this for 4 years, functioning well.

 

I did my degree. Am a bit of a perfectionist so worked very hard ( too hard), as well as working 16 hours. End of 4th year at Uni, I was burnt out. Overloaded, overwhelmed, run diwn physically and mentally. A 'nervous breakdown' ensued. I tried to go back to uni to finish the last couple of months but couldn't. I finished my dissertation abd transferred my degree so I still gained a 1st class degree but was very ill. I, nearly straight after became pregnant. I, however, suffered a horrid missed miscarriage at 13 weeks. I had told the docs that I thought something was wrong,  5 weeks earlier, but was dismissed. I took 2 months off work and was a mess.

 

The doctor gave me diazepam and zopiclone which helped me ride the worst. Somehow I survived and became pregnant again not long after. Pregnancy was hard ( pains and bleeding) but I lasted. When my baby was born, it was tricky ( so much new to learn; I developed some ocd habits to help me feel in control but it was ok. Things leveled out.

 

I was still on 10 mg Citalopram ( docs aware of this). I was doing well. I had snother baby a couple of years later, aged 29. Pregnancy was s bit better than the previous one but I still had bleeding, so was nervous but it was ok.  I continued on 10 mg of Citalopram and was doing ok. When my son was 1 though, I took on too much. ( Lots of voluntary work with high expectations and serious responsibilities. I juggled trying to be a good mum, with several voluntary roles, housekeeping, got a small part time job too. over this time, for some reason i was slowly tapering Citalopram down ( no guidance really other than from the doc that you can take them every other day (? Is this where things started to go wrong?). I thought I was doing ok, although on reflection I was burning the candle at both ends.

 

At the age of 32 I began to experience sciatica and fatigue. Doc suggested I try coming off the pill. This didn't help. This got worse until I developed severe abdominal pain/ heavy periods/ Nausea/ severe IBS - doc queried cfs but i was not yet referred.

 

I was probably taking 5 mg of citalopram a couple of times a week ( not great I now realise as not steady) but as much as I was feeling physically crap, I was still functioning I stopped the Citalopram and took nothing for 10 months.

 

The voluntary work took on another level; I imploded and had a 'nervous breakdown'  ( I had a ridiculous amount of stress which was causing me to struggle with sleep and I was beginning to get suicidal ideation and brain fog before this, on top of the other physical issues, then a stressful voluntary work event sent me into a breakdown ( crying/ anxious/ ocd/ sleeplessness/ some kind of sleep apnea where id wake up gasping for breath..

 

I was put back onto Citalopram. I quit all voluntary work. I requested to start what i  thought was low - 5mg. They pushed me to go to 10, saying 5 was ridiculous.

 

At the same time, it was thought I may have endometriosis, so in 2017, aged 35 I had a laparoscopy operation to check; it was not. I think the operation and anaesthetic helped finish me off.

 

The Citalopram made me increading suicidal to the point where  I had suicidal ideation 24/7. i  was somehow still getting sleep at this point but obe day was so suidsl, I went to   A&E. Saw a psychiatrist for the first time in my life ( aged 35). Was tild to stip Citalopram strainght  away.

 

Discussed alternatives ( antipsychotics/ Mirtazipine, other ssris  etc). I took nothing fir a week then another team of psychiatrists advised on possible meds.

 

It was decided  I would try Sertraline ( another Ssri??? why did i do that) I started it on 12.5 mg ( much to dismay of psychiatrists) but I was not given time to level out; They kept bumping up dose so i would get to the 'theraputic' dose of 50mg. Another level of Hell ensured which I hadn't yet visited. Loss of appetite, diarrhea, jitters, suicidsl ideation in the extreme, depression,  muscle twitching, increased brain fog, intrusive thoughts, rapid weight loss, hellish insomnia.  This on top of the fatigue and pain and ibs  i was already experiencing.

 

Despite my reaction, I was told to persist; I think they thought it wss my normal behaviour ( never felt this bad even when I wss 18 before starting Seroxat). Things levelled a bit after about 3 1/2 months. I was able to function a bit and go to my part time work and look after the home but it was tough. I developped tinnitus on Sertraline and had increasing brain fog. I also now suffered from depersonalisation and still had IBS and fatigue and body pain.

 

In November last yesr, Another doc suggested i try the fodmap diet. i tried this and after 2 months it was very apparent that I had a gluten intolerance. Stopping gluten cleared up my IBS and most of the body pain.

 

I still however battled with increasing brain fog and fatigue and severe depersonalisation to the point i couldnt go out at times and battled with it on the way to/ at work. Sertraline was not for me.

 

I decided to cut down. the only advice id had about tapering was every other day from my doc but I thought Id do it slower. i cut miniscule amounts off from April 17, no real structure. I did this slowly but without checking i was stabilising, from April to August when i got to about 25mg.

 

July and August, my brain fog became unbearable; unable to do shopping, unable to have a proper conversation, overwhelmed by simple questions, I became hypersensitive to light and sound. I often wore shades even on cloudy days ( looking back, noide and light sensitivity started with sertraline). I wore earplugs to limit noise at home with loud children. I became snappy due to loud noises. July August this got worse and worse but I was still functioning.

 

I began doing sertraline every other day at 25 mg in August I think, maybe before then BAM one night in early September I had severe anxiety and total insomnia. This was relentless. I was desperate. I needed advice. Do i go back? Stop? go down? even dose to take each day. I was severely suicidal and devepped what seemed to be fit type episodes where i would be breathless, painful stomach, weird tingly head, palpitations, neck pain and lower back pain, loss of appetite, feeling flu like, becoming extremely dehydrated to the point i would guzzle water down cup after cup, My body contorted in painand tension, I eould then becime cold snd shiver. these episodes could last a couple of minutes but up to 16 hours at times. i was desperate for advise. over September/ early october, I visited A&E 4 times, desperately suicidal; I spoke to my doctor, I spoke to the nhs 111 line, I paid to dpeak to a psychiatrist but NO ONE  would advise me, passing me round like a hot potato, telling me to do CBT and wait fir an appointment with a prescribing psychiatrist in december! I wouldn't live until then!

 

I stayed with my mum as I felt so out of control with these fit type things ( including one where paramedics came and I was growling/ disorientated/ confused/ dehydrated so my eyeballs snd skin were dry- I was agressive ( never been like this in my life). I didnt want to be near my family due to my behaviour so I stayed with my mum for a few days. she lives in another county. I went to A&E there and they listened to me and made me feel worthwhile. they referred me to their home treatment team, who visited me but once again were unwilling to discuss specifics of medication.

 

i was given zopiclone and diazepam. my husband and i didnt know what to do. we saw this website but I was still confused.

 

I 'evened' out the 25 mg every other day dose to 12.5 in September. This may have made things worse, not sure which is why i wanted advice.

 

The home treatment team managed to get my appointment with a prescribing psychiatrist movef to early october. I saw her and she laughed at my idea that it was withdrawal.

 

she suggested I try an snri or mirtazapine. After reading this site, I wad reluctant. I am still referred with that team of psychiatrists but another appointment is in 2 months and they just want to throw more meds at me without showing any understanding of withdrawal.

 

5 weeks ago at an extreme point, before seeing the psychiatrist, I stopped Sertraline. I have been off it for 5 weeks.

 

The fits seem to have all but stopped. but my anxiety is through the roof. I have severe stomach pain, reactions to shsmpoo, brain buzzy feeling whch zaps at times, particularly with high pitched loud noises. my sensitivity to sound is horrendous, as are my emotions and sensitivity to stress. I am overwhelmed by anxiety and ocd type ruminating thoughts about the situation and about my children's health. I am in sick leave from work since 2 months ago, as is my husband ( to look after me and the children).

 

I have managed to taper off zopiclone and my sleep varies depending on my anxiety at night ( minutes up to 6 hours, broken sleep).

 

I took dome diazepam but the ladt dose in September affected my breathing and I became severely breathless for 4 hours andmy gums bled so i haven't taken it since.

 

I have applied for pip disability living allowance. we are shortly going to have no miney coming in and do t know if and my husband will be able to go back to work or if he will be fired  ( I assume i will).

 

I read this site but felt I couldnt reinstate as I never felt good on Sertraline. what now? do I try to ride it out? So suicidal and hopeless at times. Do I reinstate to citalopram instead? Do i try something else? Low dose mood stabiliser/ antipsychotic?

 

Ps, I was referred a month ago to the ME/ Cfs people for diagnosis. Still waiting to hear.

 

 

Edited by ChessieCat
paragraphs

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Gurgle

Oh wow. Sorry. That post is really long. 

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manymoretodays

Hi Gurgle,

And welcome aboard.  And oh my......it does sound like you have had quite the experience's and I'm so sorry for your losses incurred.

 

I'm seeing sertraline, as your last medication.  And a CT(cold turkey) taper or going off of it.

Please put your withdrawal history in a signature

Just follow the instructions in the ^ link.  This is the portion that you see under others posts, when signed in, unless posting from a phone device.  You can, however, still create a signature from a phone device.

( I extracted just a bit from the link below)

If your drug history is very long, the last few years will do. FOR READABILITY, SHORT LINES ARE BEST.

 

  • A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs
  • Include ALL drugs, doses, and dates (starting and stopping)
  • Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years
  • Please use actual dates or approximate dates (e.g. mid-June) rather than relative time frames (e.g. 3 months ago)
  • Spell out months (e.g. "January" or "Jan" as 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as 9 Jan 2016 or 1 Sept 2016)
  • Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses
The 10% taper recommendation is a harm reduction approach to going off psychiatric drugs.
 
When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur.
 
 
BASIC SUPPLEMENT TOOLKIT(below are some supplements that we do recommend, however, as your nervous system is sensitized now, no doubt from the many medications and changes, do go slow in trying these.  Start with one or the other and on the low end until you see if tolerated).  Most members, myself included, do get a calming effect, which helps......in acute and protracted withdrawal states.

King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

I think you are suffering W/D(withdrawal) symptoms presently.

Do your best with the signature.  That really helps us, at a glance to help you decide on your next steps.  It may be that a very small reinstatement dose, of sertraline helps.  And I think you may not find agreement from your psychiatrist on that.  One never knows.  As the reinstatement dose that we would recommend you try, is often much less than what, at present, many prescribers recommend.

......and one more link for you to study......About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

All for now.  I'm sure that's plenty.  No worries on your long post.  It should help you sort through your information, when you do your signature.

This is now your Introduction page.  You've introduced yourself to the community.  Please post questions regarding your situation here.  It's a good place to keep a record of your journey now too, from here on out, as well as communicate and get and give support to others here.  Updates on you......also go here.

 

Love, best, healing, and growth,

mmt

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Gurgle

9 weeks CT from 12.5mg sertraline. Was already in withdrawal from attempted taper. Hell. Thought I was maybe making tiny bits of progress within hell but now can't cope 

 

When I went back onto citalopram last year,Chad bad suicidal reaction.

 

Was switched to sertraline/Zoloft and even worse reaction but told to persist.

 

Feel I need to maybe reinstate or do something as I might not make it. Would I be better off reinstating citalopram which has not quite so bad reaction ( still really bad) or sertraline ( hell) or Prozac maybe. Or Lustral?

 

Can't endure withdrawal.

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ChessieCat

It is generally best to reinstate the last drug you were taking because that is the drug which your brain has adapted to.

 

The idea with reinstatement is to bring your withdrawal symptoms to a bearable, not to get rid of them completely.  We recommend taking a small amount to start with.  Please read Post #1 of this topic About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

EDITED TO ADD:  Please see Alto's suggestion about reinstating citalopram or switching to Prozac.

 

You might find that reinstating 1mg might be enough to reduce the withdrawal symptoms without causing a bad reaction.  If you are concerned about that amount you could try 0.5mg.  It is better to start with a small amount and increase slowly if needed than to risk taking too much.  Your brain will have already made same adaptations since you have been off Zoloft/sertraline.

 

This topic explains how to get a small dose  Tips for tapering off Zoloft (sertraline)

 

It takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to full level in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.  Please keep daily symptom notes on paper, which can help you to see how reinstatement is going.

 

This is an example:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

Edited by ChessieCat
added note

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ChessieCat
On 11/6/2018 at 8:13 PM, Gurgle said:

I have managed to taper off zopiclone

 

Please add your zopiclone uses, dates and doses, to your drug signature.  Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

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Gurgle

Thank you for your quick response. Xx

 

I am worried reinstating sertraline will give me insomnia again like when I started it and initial 7/8 weeks of withdrawal from 25mg sertraline to 12.5mg. I could take zopiclone again for that maybe. Citalopram never gave me insomnia. 

. I can't fit zopiclone taper on signature. Zopiclone 7.5mg from 12 sept 18 to 1st Oct 18 then 3.75 mg until 21st Oct then half a 3.75 until 26th then every other day until 2nd November.

 

 

 

If I reinstate, say at 1mg, do I keep that stable then for a month or am I aiming to go higher. I hate SSRIs. Always made me suicidal when starting them. But I am so deeply suicidal in withdrawal. I never had depression. It was anxiety and panic attacks that I went on them for. Can a benedryl help a bit if feeling suicidal, do you know?

 

Sorry to take up your time 

 

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ChessieCat

Did you read Post #1 of the reinstatement topic?

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ChessieCat
10 minutes ago, Gurgle said:

I can't fit zopiclone taper on signature. Zopiclone 7.5mg from 12 sept 18 to 1st Oct 18 then 3.75 mg until 21st Oct then half a 3.75 until 26th then every other day until 2nd November.

 

Your issues may be from the Zopiclone.  Before you change anything we need you to keep daily symptoms notes and post them here in your intro topic so your current situation can be assessed.  I've asked the other mods for their assistance.

 

This is an example:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

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Gurgle

I have now. Thank you. It's so hard to do anything at the moment. I'm so scared. I feel I may be hypersensitive. I am taking omega 3 which seems ok but I think magnesium makes me anxious. I am reacting to shampoo and a. Small dose of valium I had a couple of months back didn't react well .

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ChessieCat

We need to be able to see ALL drugs in your drug signature.

 

Seroxat 2001-2002; Citalopram 20- 5mg 2002- 2016, 5mg for 5 weeks 10mg for 5 weeks from May 2017

Sertraline 12.5 to 25 to 37.5 to 50mg from Aug 17 to Nov 17, taper from 50mg April 18 to Sept 18 from 50mg to 12.5mg, cold turkey from 12.5mg 1st Oct 18

Zopiclone ........

 

Edited by ChessieCat

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ChessieCat
5 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Your issues may be from the Zopiclone. 

 

Just want to make sure that you have seen this post.

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Gurgle

Thanks. It will only let me put 12 lines in so I had to delete some.i shall try to have a look again 

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Gurgle

I saw zopiclone post. Thanks. I think I felt ok coming off the zopiclone ( I don't feel it exacerbated withdrawal but it could be hard to tell.

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Gurgle

I shall add diary of symptoms in a few days. Has anyone else change from another SSRI to Prozac after CT? I am probably overcomplicating things in the vain hope I won't react as badly to Prozac as I have to sertraline and citalopram. 

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Gurgle

I am lost.

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Altostrata

Hello, Gurgle.

 

How is your sleep now?

 

Since it seems you had fewer side effects from citalopram than sertraline, you might try a reinstatement of 1mg citalopram or possibly Prozac. Both come in liquid form so you can take this small amount with an oral syringe (be sure to request one from the pharmacist, rather than a dropper).

 

It sounds like your dosage of SSRIs was always too high for you, and you had adverse reactions because of that.

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Gurgle

Hello Altostrata,

 

Thank you very much for your reply my sleep is better than the pure insomnia I had which I know I am grateful for. I can settle off at about 10 pm and have some times slept until 5. At other times I sleep for 3 hours then wake then if lucky get another couple of hours at some point in the night. I dear I risk losing this if reinstating, in particular, sertraline. Are you aware of any others reinstating another SSRI with success? My withdrawal is in a really bad place over the last 10 days. Trying to hang on in there. 

 

If I reinstate 1mg of an SSRI, where to I go from there? Stay on it for a month or a lot longer if it helps? Or titrate up if there is no effect? Not sure how I would wean from 1 mg in the future but I suppose that's the least of my worries at the moment. 

 

I hope you are well.

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Gurgle

Advice please. 

 

My day today:

 

Sleep at about 9 pm.

 

Woke at 1.30am anxious and suicidal

 

Meditation - hard work but got to sleep after a couple of hours

 

Woke at about 5 anxious and suicidal

 

Tried meditation- no luck.

 

Ate breakfast

 

9.30 am phoned community mental health team. They were so glad to hear from me and my withdrawal ramblings!! I can pick up a prescription for liquid Citalopram or Prozac tomorrow ( not sure which yet) to try to reinstate 1mg. 

Deeply distressed and suicidal all day, weird head buzzing, ringing in ears, noise sensitivity.

 

10 am Tried to jog - couldn't ( out of breath). 

 

10.15 Walked to pharmacy with husband to get nytol/benedryl antihistamine

 

11am Took 1mg diazepam ( advice from pharmacist) - very slight calm with underlying anxiety for 20 mins then no effect. Not helpful.

 

Lunch and Omega 3 at 12pm- no change

 

Took 25mg nytol/ benedryl at 2pm. I think this may have has a bit of a positive effect compared to anything else I have tried.

 

3pm somehow managed to go with hubby to pick up children.

 

3.30 Played my guitar. This had some effect at distracting me- not sure I'd have nlbeen able to play it without having taken nytol. 

 

Ate dinner up at table with family. Feeling somber. Managed to pull off a bit of acting.

 

Now- gone to hide in bedroom

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Gurgle

With reinstating, if I do 1 mg and have no adverse reaction, I gather I stabilise on that dose for 1 month, then what? Sorry to ask. There may be info somewhere that I can't see in my state of mind.

 

Do I up to 2mg? What am I aiming for? I realise it's not black and white. 

 

Is it easier to taper off Prozac?

 

Thank you x

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Gridley

The goal of reinstatement is to make withdrawal symptoms tolerable, not to eliminate them entirely.  That is what you are aiming for, and 1mg may be sufficient.  In the time since you cold-turkeyed the Sertraline, your brain has made some adjustment to not having the drug, and your brain may not be able to handle higher doses.  Your system has become sensitized and If you take too much it may be too much for your brain and can cause you become unstable.   We usually suggest a much smaller reinstatement dose than your last dose.  These drugs are strong, and when reinstating it is better to start with a small amount and increase if symptoms remain unbearable. 

 

Please read:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms. -- at least the first page of the topic

 

It takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to get to full state in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.  Give the reinstatement time to work.

 

If the 1 mg reinstatement makes symptoms bearable, you will need to hold there for several months to stabilize.  Then you can begin a 10% taper down to zero.

 

 

 

 
 
 

 

 

 

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Gurgle

Wow. Don't you love the NHS. Spoke to community mental health team who discussed the 1mg liquid Citalopram suggestion and agreed it was an option and they'll sort prescription for today. Got call today to say that my psychiatrist ( who I have not yet met) won't agree to any medication until my appointment with her which will be...... Some time in the new year. I was told I could phone my doc and see if they could help as should get an appointment quicker. I know exactly what they'll say, speak to community mental health team. Deflated. Waiting for a callback from doc to hear what I have predicted will be another fob off. Oh well. P.s. hubby has now lost his job because he is off looking after me. Any encouraging words would be much appreciated from you wonderful bunch x

 

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Gridley

I am sorry you've gotten the runaround.  And about your husband too.  I don't know the system in the U.K. but it seems very frustrating.  In the U.S. any M.D. can prescribe antidepressants.  Not so in the U.K.?

Edited by Gridley

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Gurgle

Thank you for your response. It means a lot. I am waiting for a call from the doc, who in theory can prescribe but i have previously just been referred to the community mental health team as doc doesn't know much about antidepressants and doesn't want to deal with it. Oh well. I shall see what happens. 

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Gurgle

Hi again. Been doing meditation when poss, using tiger balm on my back, neck and stomach for pain and as a distraction ( it's quite good).

 

Been in a bad way; still here though- ran out of hope but some sneaked back in. Yey.Managed to get doc to prescribe citalopram but we worked out it was 2mg citalopram per drop if using liquid. 0.025 of a ml to get 1mg. Pharmacist said syringe wouldn't do the trick. Instead I have been prescribed 10mg tablets that we are cutting, using a template. I am concerned about the accuracy but am not sure of an alternative option. 

 

Also does anyone know how well the divided doses may keep? Are they affected by oxygen do you think when crushed? Can they be mixed with another substance?

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Gurgle

Haven't taken any yet

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ChessieCat

It's possible to make your own liquid: 

 

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Gridley

If you go with the tablets and weighing, I suggest you order from Amazon a Gemini-20 scale.  Many members use it.

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Gurgle

Hi. Thank you for the scales suggestion. My concern is that as I am reinstating at 1 mg, I would need scales that go to 0.00001g and the cheapest I can find is £850. 

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Gurgle

I am contemplating switching to the liquid Citalopram. Apparently, according to an NHS publication, it has more bioavailability so 10mg tablet citalopram would be an equivalent dose of 8mg liquid so I may need to factor this when switching.

 

1ml citalopram liquid = 40 mg citalopram

 

1 need 1mg so that would be 0.025 of a ml ( 1, 40th).

 

I could get a 0.5ml syringe but that would need to have 20 divides in it, if any of my brain cells are still working.

Or would I dilute an amount in water then work out an equivalent amount? 

 

Some advice if possible. 

 

I will update with a diary later. Been reinstating for 4 days  but by crushing a 10mg tablet. Then spreadibg into a metal template with 10 holes in and having one amount. Worried about reliable dosing hence looking at liquid again. 

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Gurgle

Thank you for keeping me going SA

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