Sebas: seeking advice about paroxetine

[Sebas]

Hello Everyone,

 

Let me introduce myself. You can call me Sebas (38), i'm from Amsterdam. Hope my English is okay.

I was diagnosed with anxiety issues around 2004 and then started using Seroxat, I believe it's called Paxil in the US. I'm aware by now of all the problems this medicine is causing. In other words, i've read a lot, and i mean A LOT about it. I can almost graduate about the subject

 

After several attempts to stop, I found out in 2015 or 2016 about the 5-10% reduction rule.

That helped me from 20 mg (10 ml) tot 12 mg (6 ml) in about 1,5 years (estimated).

I'm using the fluid suspension and some squirts for accurate dosage.

 

From 6 ml down to 5,8 took me 5 weeks to feel allright, then i stabilized for a week and went back down from 5,8 tot 5,6.

All the usual withdrawal symptoms occur during tapering periods such as illness, nerve system problems, visual, fatigue, stomache cramps and also i'm countering eye circles.

 

Since the last dosage (from 5,8 tot 5,6) i've been feeling bad for 9 weeks already. Especially my stomache and my energy.

So i'm now wondering what to do, wait (and wait...), go back to 5,8, go back to 6,0 of try to switch to another AD. Cause this one is really @#$%&* mainly cause of the fast half-life period.

I've read about a cross tapering method. I asked my doktor for a psychiatric consult about it.

 

Or...could it be my body (and mind) is telling me this dose is beneath the minimum that i just need for my personal wellbeing.

 

I'm familiair with magnesium, omega 3/fish oil and multi vitamin for support.

 

I'm looking forward fto exchanging some knowledge.

 

Bye Sebas

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by ChessieCat
transferred age from topic title to post

[Gridley]

Welcome to SA, Sebas.

 

To give members the best information, we ask them to summarize their medication history in a signature -- drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly.

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

I would not recommend changing drugs.  Crossovers don't always work, and there is the chance of an adverse reaction to the new drug plus the inevitable shakeout symptoms of starting a new drug.  Your post indicates you were able to stabilize on Paxil at 5.8, which points toward staying with the Paxil. 

 

Regarding updosing, that is a possibility.  Please read the following:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms. -- at least the first page of the topic

 

We usually suggest a much smaller update dose than your last dose. So I would not reinstate up to 5.8 or 6.0.   These drugs are strong, and when reinstating it is better to start with a small amount and increase if symptoms remain unbearable. During the 9 weeks you've been at 5.6mg, your brain has adapted to that dosage.  If you take too much it may be too much for your brain and can cause you become unstable.  Sometimes it can be hard to regain stability after this happens.  I'd suggest a starter updose of .5mg, (so you'd be taking 5.65mg) and see how that works.

 

Remember, it takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to get to full state in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.  So give it a chance to work.

 

Or you could hold where you are at 5.6 and wait it out.  Nine weeks to stabilize isn't that long.  Please read this link, in which members talk more in terms of months to stabilize.

 

After Reinstating or Updosing, How Long To Stabilize?


 

 

 

 

[Sebas]

Thanks for replying on short notice Gridley 😊

After heaving read some posts yesterdag evening, i decided to switch to 5.7 ml yesterday. I guess that's also sort of what you recommended.

I can't dose less than 0,1 ml with my current equipment....these are already pretty tiny squirts (is this what you call it .

I realy felt like stabilisation wasn't going to happen.

 

I was considering a switch to perhaps a milder alternative, or one with a longer half-time that would make tapering easier.

But i realize that could give switching issues. I'll certainly take your advice serious!

https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Prozac-bridge-used-when-stopping-Cymbalta-Really-work-Is-it-actually-used-in-Psychiatric-medicine-If-so-how

I also read Alto's page about it.

I find it kind of demotivating that it could take several more years to come down. Meaning lots of weeks actually feeling sick.

This also has to do with my sport activities. I can't seem to get into stabile condition while constantly tapering (in these periods i switch to just walking/my dog). 

 

Is it possible that fish oil, magnesium and multi vitamins, beside the use of paroxetine is all too much for the liver?

What would you suggest?

 

Have a nice weekend!

 

[ChessieCat]

Magnesium and Omega-3 Fish Oil are the only two supplements which SA recommends.  Try a small amount, one at a time to see how your respond.  Only make one change at a time.  Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

 

Generally it is better to not take a complex of anything.  If you have a bad reaction to something it contains, you won't know what is causing the issue.  Some members find B6 activating.

 

There are many existing topics on this site.  I like to use google and add survivingantidepressants.org to my search term.  So survivingantidepressants.org vitamins

[Sebas]

Thanks Chessie,

 

Would you also advice the brassmonkey way of tapering? Spreading the 1 month taper over a quarter each week and then two weeks of stabilisation?

Is this mostly experienced positively?

 

Bye bye

[Gridley]

Sebas,

 

I have used the Brassmonkey taper for almost two years in my taper of Lexapro and have had positive results.  The taper takes a little longer than the 10% every four weeks method (due to the two-week hold) but to me the benefit of reduced withdrawal symptoms is worth it.

[direstraits]

20 hours ago, Sebas said:

i'm countering eye circles.

do you mean dark under eye circles?

[Sebas]

@Gridley I also use a two-week (or more) hold, for stabilisation,  and mostly just a drop of 3-4% and at least 5-6 weaks. I think it's because i'm highly sensitive.

So delay is not an issue ;)

@direstraits yes indeed, every now and then i kind of suddenly get those yellow/black/blue circles beneath my eyes. I'm sure it has got something tot do with paxil or at least liver or darm area. I'm drinking some more water the last days, that should help at least a little. Perhaps it's the amount of medicin and supplements that's to much for the liver or kidneys? You've got any clue?

 

Thanks for responding, I appreciate it ✌️

[Sebas]

Hi,

 

Something else i would like to know is, are there other people who have problems digesting herbs/spices due to the use of Paxil or other AD?

Before i could eat anything.

And does this disappear again?

 

Bye

[SkyBlue]

Yes, almost anything can be a side effect or withdrawal symptom with Paxil. These drugs disrupt the entire nervous system, which is in charge of every function in the body, so that is why there is such a baffling array of withdrawal symptoms. 

 

Hang in there; it will get better.

[Gridley]

Since I've been in WD, I can't eat anything the least bit sweet.  If I do, I get an immediate charge of anxiety.

[Sebas]

15 hours ago, SkyBlue said:

Yes, almost anything can be a side effect or withdrawal symptom with Paxil. These drugs disrupt the entire nervous system, which is in charge of every function in the body, so that is why there is such a baffling array of withdrawal symptoms. 

 

Hang in there; it will get better.

Thanks,

The 2% cuts i can relate to. I'm currently cutting 3,5 %, I think it also depends on the drug period.

Cause even the smallest cuts (i've shown my girlfriend by exampling 0,2 ml of water) can have serious side effects.

I'm getting an even smaller squirt soon and trying the brassmonkey too. Will the side effects be less heavy then?

 

Bye bye

 

[Gridley]

If by "side effects" you mean withdrawal symptoms, generally the smaller the cut, the fewer and gentler the withdrawal symptoms.

[ChessieCat]

5 hours ago, Sebas said:

Going from 20 mg to 18 mg was "no big deal" but nowadays at 11,4 mg i can hardly imagine going down with 10%.

So i'm happy to have read about the #MT (micro tapering).

Just do what feels right for you.

 

Some members seem to have difficulty getting past a particular dose or doses during their tapering.

 

You might find this topic intersting:  Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

[Sebas]

So, I started brassmonkey method after feeling quite good dec 2018.

I took whats seem to be real small steps and went from 5,7 ml to 5,58 ml at a pace of 0,03 ml/week.

Week 1: 5,67

Week 2: 5,64

Week 3: 5,61

Week 4: 5,58

 

I dindt'feel quite balanced after step 3 so i waited one extra week and then went to 5,58.

It eventually took from 25/1/2019 up to last week and still my nerve system hasn't found it's balance yet. I was feeling pretty sick (heartbeat, high temperature, sneezing, fatigue, anxiety, diarree, bad sight etc.). Had the flue twice this year, first in January then in March. So i updosed at first to 5,59 and after a few days to 5,585 ml after this had caused.

 

The thing is, i'm wondering if i should have waited longer after step 3 (although the Brassmonkey methode says weekly steps...?) before continuing to step 4.

These steps seem so small when you look at the dose, but what consequences can they cause. Just amazing.

Also i ask myself should i have updosed sooner? Then perhaps i wouldn't have felt sick and out of balance for several weeks. Unfortunately i also have to work from 9 to 5 daily so this sometimes feels very heavy.

 

Any advice I would appreciate.

 

By the way those who may find it interesting, in the Netherlands GSK will be sued this year in a collective procedure.

[Ather]

@Sebas Brother if you "think" you are highly sensitive then sure you will be highly sensitive, those differences in dosing are tinier than tiny, you are thinking about them a lot and that is what causing all those symptoms

[Sebas]

20 minutes ago, Ather said:

@Sebas Brother if you "think" you are highly sensitive then sure you will be highly sensitive, those differences in dosing are tinier than tiny, you are thinking about them a lot and that is what causing all those symptoms

 

Thanks but i'm looking for some advice or guidance. Being highly sensitive is just the condition of my CNS since i was born. I'm glad cause it also causes several advantages in life. By the way several users take these tiny steps (at least during particular phases).

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, Sebas said:

 

Hi, read your history below.

What does the turtle protocol mean? I'm currently at approximately 5,6 ml paroxetine and wondering if i should stop tapering at 5,0 ml. 

 

Turtle protocol just means going as slowly as you need to go to get off/reduce your drug without experiencing bad withdrawal symptoms.

 

(EDITED:  Just seen this in drug signature:  Started brassmonkey micro-taper end dec 2018)

 

You might be interested in the Brass Monkey Slide method of tapering.  If tapering 10% over a 6 week period is still too fast, you can always reduce by less.  BrassMonkey Slide – Pick your taper rate

 

are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take

Are there some who can't taper off no matter how slow they go?
When to end the taper and jump to zero?

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by ChessieCat

[direstraits]

2 hours ago, Sebas said:

By the way those who may find it interesting, in the Netherlands GSK will be sued this year in a collective procedure.

good for the Netherlands...hope they have to pay a fortune!

🤞

[bubbles]

Hello @Sebas

 

When you say this " Currently wondering if i should stop tapering when i've reached 5 ml (10 mg)" in your signature block, are you meaning staying at 5mg indefinitely?

 

B

[Ather]

9 hours ago, Sebas said:

 

Thanks but i'm looking for some advice or guidance. Being highly sensitive is just the condition of my CNS since i was born. I'm glad cause it also causes several advantages in life. By the way several users take these tiny steps (at least during particular phases).

 

Welcome brother, can you please tell me a few of those sensitivities you have since you were born ?

 

I read above that you have read so much about your medicine that you should be awarded a degree for that,

Do you think it has helped you come out of the state you are in ? don't you think they were Negative for you to know ?

[Sebas]

18 hours ago, bubbles said:

Hello @Sebas

 

When you say this " Currently wondering if i should stop tapering when i've reached 5 ml (10 mg)" in your signature block, are you meaning staying at 5mg indefinitely?

 

B

Yes indeed that's what i mean. 5ml equals 10 mg. That would be at 50% of the original dose.

[Sebas]

So i just realized that i have taken some ibuprofen painkillers for a couple of weeks (twice a day) cause of knee injury and also a fluid that contains codeine/paracatamol, for my flu symptoms. Perhaps that wasn't a smart thing to do (during withdrawal). I wasn't aware of the possible side effects. The stomache issues might be related to that. So i'll leave those painkillers alone for a week and see what happens.

[PerAsperaAdAstra]

2 hours ago, Sebas said:

So i just realized that i have taken some ibuprofen painkillers for a couple of weeks (twice a day) cause of knee injury and also a fluid that contains codeine/paracatamol, for my flu symptoms. Perhaps that wasn't a smart thing to do (during withdrawal). I wasn't aware of the possible side effects. The stomache issues might be related to that. So i'll leave those painkillers alone for a week and see what happens.

 

Ibuprofen is an NSAID. As such it could definitely have an effect on your stomach. And I can imagine an unhappy stomach isn't a good thing during withdrawal. :).

 

By the way, I'm also from NL and I didn't know about this class action lawsuit against GSK. Lets hope you will be successful! 

[Sebas]

Okay so i still haven't balanced from WD. Sight problems, diarea, problems concentrating and finding words. Some days are better, some are worse. Also brainzapps and dizzyness. Im taking one or two magnesium and fish oil tablets. Forming words is also more difficult than usual. Think i'll Just have to wait until balance comes back. Also bit more restless. Forgetting things and dropping things more often. Like being a bit drunk. During office days trying to spend less energy. Sometimes going home earlier. Spending a little extra money to get some decent lunch. Bye Sebas

[Gridley]

 

On 4/17/2019 at 8:30 PM, Sebas said:

Okay so i still haven't balanced from WD.

 

I see in your drug signature that you're wondering if you should stop tapering when you've reached 5ml/10mg.  That is far too high a dosage to drop from and is essentially a cold turkey.  We recommend dropping to zero at a very low dose, if possible 0.1mg and preferably lower.

 

When to end the taper and jump to zero?

 

When to end the taper and jump to zero?

 

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by ChessieCat
added link

[Sebas]

1 hour ago, Gridley said:

 

 

I see in your drug signature that you're wondering if you should stop tapering when you've reached 5ml/10mg.  That is far too high a dosage to drop from and is essentially a cold turkey.  We recommend dropping to zero at a very low dose, if possible 0.1mg and preferably lower.

 

When to end the taper and jump to zero?

 

I mean i'm considering to stop and stay at a dosage of 10mg. Cause of the perspective of approximately 5 more years of feeling sick all the time. Bit first goal is to reach 10mg and then ill decide what to do after.

[ChessieCat]

Here's the link:  When to end the taper and jump to zero?

 

And this might help you to understand why jumping off at such a high dose is not recommended.:

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by ChessieCat
added extra link

[Sebas]

21 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Here's the link:  When to end the taper and jump to zero?

 

And this might help you to understand why jumping off at such a high dose is not recommended.:

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

@ChessieCat I mean i'm considering to stop and stay at a dosage of 10mg. Cause of the perspective of approximately 5 more years of feeling sick all the time. Bit first goal is to reach 10mg and then ill decide what to do after.

[Rhiannon]

On 4/22/2019 at 11:41 AM, Sebas said:

@ChessieCat I mean i'm considering to stop and stay at a dosage of 10mg. Cause of the perspective of approximately 5 more years of feeling sick all the time. Bit first goal is to reach 10mg and then ill decide what to do after.

 

When I first started my tapering journey I told my physician that my goal was to get down to the lowest dose of the fewest possible meds I could be stable and okay on. Not necessarily to stop all meds. I have had many times to be grateful for this goal. I needed to be able to work full time and I wanted to be able to enjoy my life. So I have been tapering for 10 years and my focus is on feeling good. 

 

Harm reduction is the whole point, and for a lot of people that is going to mean tapering slowly to a comfortable dose that minimizes side effects and maximizes quality of life.

 

If you get comfortable and stable on 10 mg and you want to taper in the future, you can do it extremely slowly. I do find that I love getting my emotions and my personality back very gradually as time goes along, as my doses of the drugs go lower and lower. But I am not willing to suffer a lot of withdrawal either. Life is too precious to spend it being sick and miserable if you can avoid it.

 

I hope you find a path that gives you the best life you can have.

[Sebas]

19 hours ago, Rhiannon said:

 

When I first started my tapering journey I told my physician that my goal was to get down to the lowest dose of the fewest possible meds I could be stable and okay on. Not necessarily to stop all meds. I have had many times to be grateful for this goal. I needed to be able to work full time and I wanted to be able to enjoy my life. So I have been tapering for 10 years and my focus is on feeling good. 

 

Harm reduction is the whole point, and for a lot of people that is going to mean tapering slowly to a comfortable dose that minimizes side effects and maximizes quality of life.

 

If you get comfortable and stable on 10 mg and you want to taper in the future, you can do it extremely slowly. I do find that I love getting my emotions and my personality back very gradually as time goes along, as my doses of the drugs go lower and lower. But I am not willing to suffer a lot of withdrawal either. Life is too precious to spend it being sick and miserable if you can avoid it.

 

I hope you find a path that gives you the best life you can have.

Thanks for this insight en goodluck to you, have a Nice weekend 👍🤗

[PerAsperaAdAstra]

Hi Sebas! I hope you're doing well.

 

I rather enjoyed reading Rhiannon's insight as well. If a harm reduction approach means tapering in a really sloooooooow fashion but allows us to feel as good as possible than that's the way to go. 

I hope you will find a way of tapering that works well for your body. Since you've talked about a sensitive CNS that might necessitate going below 3% cuts.

 

Maar fijn om met iemand mee te kunnen lezen die ook in dezelfde Seroxat-boot zit als ik. 😀

[Sebas]

That goes for me 2 😉. Doing okay at the moment. Used a salve for knee injury that contained diclofenac end of nov/2019. Was tapering then. Nerve system got scrued. Waiting for stabilisation ever since (!). Hope/expect it to happen soon. Lesson learned. 

[Sebas]

Interesting article in New York Times about acknowledgement long term tapering (Q1 2019):

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/health/depression-withdrawal-drugs.html

@Altostrata FYI

[Altostrata]

Yes, I believe we have discussions about this in the Media forum.

[pinciukas]

Hello Sebas! I am also from Amsterdam but I am not Dutch and I am tapering Paroxetine. Take care!