Dejavu: can anyone tell me what's going on?

[Dejavu]

@ChessieCat I was just thinking the same thing. Yes, COVID has affected us seriously. Here in Texas, apparently some people are unclear on the concept of protection and we are now neck-deep in cases. There is no work for my husband and I because the courthouses aren't open. We had to file for unemployment, which has been a humiliation for me. The government is trying to force my grandchildren back into school while the pandemic is raging unchecked, and I am terrified for them. I am also heartbroken about the current condition of the US and how we are now perceived globally. Another couple of things just struck me: after months of lockdown and not being able to go to the gym, we just bought a treadmill. I just started back into an exercise regimen this week, after having been very sedentary since mid-March. Could too much exercise be the culprit? Also, my allergies went absolutely nuts this week, causing me to use Flonase spray about a half dozen times. I almost never use it, in fact, I haven't in years. Perhaps it is a perfect storm of everything. 

 

Whatever the cause, any advice other than to hold hold hold?

[Altostrata]

How do you know you're a slow metabolizer of Zoloft?

 

It sounds like you skipped a dose or something. Did you add or take away another drug? What about this Cortisol Manager?

[ChessieCat]

Yes, it does sound like you have been affected by one or more things recently.

  

Regarding Flonase Alto has changed to a non-steroidal spray:

 

On 4/6/2012 at 4:09 AM, Altostrata said:

I've had very few colds or flu while having prolonged withdrawal symptoms. This year, I had a bad cold a couple months back. Could be a good sign!

 

My allergy symptoms, though, are apparently too stubborn to kill. I use fluticasone (Flonase) nasal spray and Pataday eye drops during allergy season -- spring and fall for me.

 

UPDATE: Since 2012, I've changed to ketotifen eye drops and azelastine nasal spray -- they are non-steroidal. Steroidal drops and sprays can advance cataracts or glaucoma.

 

 

[Dejavu]

@Altostrata

I had a DNA test performed after I crashed in 2018. It shows I am a slow metabolizer of almost all SSRI's. (I am an intermediate metabolizer of Prozac.) My theory is that this is why I get an uptick in symptoms about 30 days or so after a cut, as my body is finally clearing the amount of the decrement. Its now been 45 days from my last cut. But before, the little upswings in sxs were slight and short-lived. I'm going on my third day of some fairly intense anxiety right now.

 

I haven't skipped any doses, and except for the accidental updose for a few days in March, I haven't committed any dosing errors of which I am aware. I am religious about dosing at the same time each day and mixing a fresh dose daily. I have made two deviations from my normal routine: I just started an exercise program after months of lockdown inactivity, and I took about 6 doses of Flonase this week to deal with an allergy spike brought on by the huge dust storm that blew across Texas. Could either of those be the culprit?

[Dejavu]

@Altostrata, also I have not taken the Cortisol Manager, or any other supplement for months. I will update my sig tomorrow. I'm on my phone this evening

 

[Altostrata]

Flonase is a steroid, so ????

 

Azelastine by prescription is a nasal spray that doesn't have a steroid in it. You might want to try that instead and see if this settles down.

[Dejavu]

OMG! I thought Flonase was non-steroidal! Color me stupid. I'm willing to bet the farm that's my problem. I have had prior bad reactions to steroids, even pre-AD's. What a silly mistake. A lesson for me, and a cautionary tale for us all about complacency. Thank you @Altostrata and @ChessieCat! Obviously, a hold is in order until this wave clears. And a call to the doc Monday for an RX of Astelin.

[ChessieCat]

I suggest that you get the doctor to add it to the list of what not to prescribe in your file.

[sunnysideup69]

I'm glad you figured that out, @Dejavu. Sounds like that could be the culprit. I had a dodgy diet at the beginning of July, too much sugar and takeaways, and I think I've been paying for it this week.

However, it could also be circumstantial in part. These times we are living through are pretty intense and stressful. And things keep changing. Stay in/ go out/ go back to work/ there's no work/ etc. This is all bound to be having an impact. Quite a few people who were doing well seem to be in waves at the moment.

Hang in there and hold 😊

[Dejavu]

@ChessieCat, yes indeed. But I'm afraid I can't blame this one on the doctor. It's all me. I bought it over the counter without a thought to check the ingredients. I've been feeling so well lately - sometimes even 100% - that I got lazy. Live and learn.

[Altostrata]

Always read up on you drugs!

[Dejavu]

@Altostrata @ChessieCat 

I hope you are both doing well today. I could use a bit of advice if you have the time.

 

I'm on day 5 of a wave; the first since I started tapering last December. It started with blurred and "wonky" vision, dizziness, and trembling, but those have now been replaced almost exclusively with high anxiety. I don't have cortisol spikes, and I wake anxiety-free, but minutes after waking, the anxiety creeps up and is then with me all day. I'd rate it a 7 or 8 out of 10. This has begun about 6 weeks after my last cut of 2.5% on a Brassmonkey Slide. I've noticed that with all my cuts, I have a slight uptick in symptoms about a month or so afterward, which would indicate that I need to hold longer than 30 days going forward. Or it could be that 10% cuts are too big. Or both. My question is: is it time to try a small updose, say 2.5% (back to 22.5)? Or should I just wait for this to settle out? I hate to throw my system further into flux with another change, but this is not mild or moderate anxiety, and if you think it's possible I could alleviate it with a small updose, I'm inclined to try. I would like your opinions if you have time. Thanks!

[Altostrata]

Hmmmm....you might consider a crossover to Prozac.

 

FYI

 

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB01104

Quote

The risk or severity of adverse effects can be increased when Fluticasone propionate is combined with Sertraline.

 

[Dejavu]

@Altostrata, thank you for the prompt response. With all you have on your plate, I am so sorry to burden you further. I'm unclear how a longer half-life drug would benefit, since I'm already processing Sertraline so slowly. If Flonase was the problem here, might I then expect this to calm down now that I've not used it for several days? And does that argue against an updose since, if it's a Flonase-induced ADR rather than withdrawal, updosing would not help, and in fact, might make things worse? That's what logic tells me, but my "thinker" isn't working too well right now, so can you check me on that? I'd like to continue to "dance with the one that brought me," so to speak, if possible. I've been reading about Erell's difficult crossover, and I'm pretty triggered by it. Certainly, I would want to be more stable before attempting any crossover, correct? But if it is your recommendation, I would be willing to try.

 

I cannot believe I did this to myself! My taper was going so well - slow but steady. I just want to cry - I've been so careful to hold for long periods, and I've done everything else right. Now I feel like I've derailed myself with a single act of stupidity!! Thank you for getting back to me - I am feeling pretty devastated at the moment. 

[Altostrata]

If it was a Flonase upset, it should gradually go away.

 

Some doctors routinely substitute Prozac for bridging off the other SSRIs. Zoloft was identified as a withdrawal problem early on (but they can all be problems).

[Erell]

Hello Dejavu

 

I'm sorry you've been triggered by my thread.

I've read a lot before attempting my switch, and a lot of Prozac bridges are successfull ☺

 

I don't know if Alto would agree, but in my case my mistake probably was a too low amount of Fluoxetine to substitute.

From the testimonies I've read, it seems that people usually use higher equivalencies.

 

Take care ☀️

 

 

[Dejavu]

@Altostrata, many thanks. I will continue to monitor without updosing for now. 

 

@Erell, no worries. "Trigger" was too strong a word. I apologize. I was taking a break from the forum when you signed on, so welcome from me and congrats on your moderator status. I have read your thread. You are amazing in many ways. How is the crossover working for you today? I have not ruled it out, but certainly feel I need to restabilize first.  

[Altostrata]

Erell, you didn't make a mistake.

 

1 minute ago, Altostrata said:

No, your switch to Prozac did not fail, there's every evidence it will work. You just need to find the right Prozac dosage.

 

Estimating how much Prozac to substitute is always tricky.

 

[Dejavu]

@Altostrata @Erell, After mulling it over briefly, I'm seriously considering it, once I get my current issue in check. Part of being a slow metabolizer of Zoloft (which I am known to be), is a higher risk for ADRs. I have consistently maintained - even before DNA testing - that zoloft causes me jitters and anxiety. I even mention it in my introductory post. That same DNA test showed that of all the SSRI's, I would process Prozac most efficiently (intermediate metabolizer as opposed to "slow" with all the others). I know Zoloft has a short half life. Is that why it has been identified as a withdrawal problem? I always thought Paxil and Effexor were the real beasts.

[Altostrata]

My opinion is that Paxil is the standout, followed by Effexor and Cymbalta. Substitution of Prozac is standard operating procedure for all the SSRIs.

[ShiningLight]

2 hours ago, Dejavu said:

I cannot believe I did this to myself! My taper was going so well - slow but steady. I just want to cry - I've been so careful to hold for long periods, and I've done everything else right. Now I feel like I've derailed myself with a single act of stupidity!! Thank you for getting back to me - I am feeling pretty devastated at the moment. 

 

Deja, glad you're back! 😀 Sorry to hear you're in a wave, the anxiety is miserable. I have it too. I refer to the thought pattern above as "one wrong move." I do it all the time myself. It's catastrophizing. The story is that you've made one wrong move and it's ruined everything. This is not true. Everyone makes mistakes now and then, and we can recover from our mistakes. They're almost never as dire as they feel. The intensity you feel around this mistake is coming from the withdrawal emotions; it's not the reality of the situation.

 

Incidentally, I recall making the flonase error myself some time ago. 🤔  Now I have a SinuPulse machine. I like it better than using a neti.

[Dejavu]

It's so good to hear from you @ShiningLight! And of course, you're right. I think, once you suffer a hard crash, you kind of get PTSD about ever going back there. At least that is the case for me. I'm going to look into a SinuPulse. I don't care for neti pots either. 

 

How are you coming along? I've missed visiting with you.

[Dejavu]

I apologize in advance for the dark and angry nature of this post, but I feel like I'll explode if I don't get this off my chest. For the past fifty months of my life, I've felt like the dot under a huge question mark.  A solitary panic attack in 2016 brought me to this place. I remember driving down the road, and suddenly not being able to breathe. My head was spinning and I thought I was dying. I pulled over, sat in my car, focused on the pretty landscaping of the house in front of me, and said to myself, "let the last thing you see before you leave this world be something beautiful." But I didn't die. What I did do was have a emotional breakdown (from too many external stressors to mention here), or so said the ER doc as he cheerfully handed me a script for 90 Ativan to take 3x a day, with instructions to call my PCP for a refill if I didn't feel better in a month. No mention of addiction, dependence, withdrawal...not one word. Oh, how I desperately wish I could go back and undo that day! There's nothing I wouldn't give. When I took that script from his hand, I never realized I was trading the next 6 to 8 years of my life for those 90 pills. I took every one of them, as prescribed. And I did feel better, so no need to follow up with PCP. I just wanted to put it behind me and move along. But just hours after the last pill...CRASH. Back to ER. Another script (only 30 this time, thus adding interdose withdrawal to my misery), a referral to a psychiatrist, and a judgey look for my evil, drug-seeking ways. At the PDOC weeks later, an admonition that I shouldn't have taken 90 Ativan in 30 days (as prescribed), a cold switch to klonopin (updosed to 3 mg), the addition of zoloft to aid benzo withdrawal (she called it "the most gentle antidepressant" and 50 mg was "a baby dose"), and a promise that discontinuing would be a breeze. Between that hour and this, I have:

 

Buried my sister while in klonopin withdrawal;

Buried my mother while in zoloft withdrawal;

Buried my godfather while in zoloft withdrawal;

"Celebrated" my 4th anniversary while in klonopin withdrawal;

"Celebrated" my 5th and 6th anniversaries while in zoloft withdrawal;

Canceled Christmas due to zoloft withdrawal;

Had both my surviving siblings require emergency surgery two days apart while in zoloft withdrawal (and let me tell you, *that* was an otherworldy kind of weird!);

Missed countless birthdays, school plays, family reunions, parties, outings with friends  and special occasions due to klonopin and zoloft withdrawal.

 

I have crashed. Twice. I have stabilized. Twice. I have windowed and waved. I have been fearful. I have cried. I have been hopeful. I have been despondent. I, like the rest of you good people, have suffered both physically and mentally, in ways no one should ever have to. But I've never been angry. Until tonight. And it's eating me alive.

 

G**D*** it! I've never been so angry in my life. Is it productive? Nope. Useful? Not at all. But the meltdown came anyway. The angry tears came anyway. I've been too concentrated on mere survival to look any farther down the road. After all, when you're on the Titanic, there's no time to curse the iceberg - you've gotta load those lifeboats, right? After feeling so well for eight months, and making a respectable dent in my drug load, I find myself back in a wave. My one and only symptom is the one I dread the most -anxiety. Tonight, as my sweet and long-suffering husband held me while I cried, I looked at his face - a mixture of sympathy, helplessness, and "oh, no, here we go again," and it filled me with such a white-hot anger at the medical "professionals" who have steered all our lives - and the lives of our loved ones - into a ditch.

 

After two failed marriages - one exploitive, the other just plain abusive - I finally found the love of my life. We have blended our families, and we love each other deeply. But now, we've been reduced to little more than caregiver and patient. I'm his "box of chocolates" every single morning (I trust everyone gets the Forrest Gump reference). He doesn't deserve this, and neither do I. I'm almost 60 years old, and will be well into my 7th decade by the time I'm free of this rat poison. Part of me feels like giving up; just cutting down to the next so-called "therapeutic dose" (for the sake of convenience), stay there for the rest of my life and pray I don't live long enough for tachyphalaxis to kick in. Just throw in the towel. The only thing that stops me is this roiling, bubbling, festering anger, and the knowledge, deep in my soul, that I cannot let them win. If I give up, I know I'll never be able to forgive myself.  So I'll keep plodding along, putting myself and my family through hell, for an outcome I may not, due to my age, live very long to enjoy. 

 

What a deep, dark, seething anger - almost rage. How DARE they?? How dare they do this to any of us? How dare they RX this poison like it's baby aspirin? How dare they lie - by both commission and omission - about the sinister way these pharmaceuticals hijack our brains, our families and our lives? How dare they ignore our reports, our requests, our pleas for help? How dare they deny and gaslight while accepting perks and incentives from pharma reps for prescribing their drugs? How dare they drive people from their careers, relationships and lifestyles and into mental health institutions, where they are misdiagnosed, misjudged and plied with still more drugs? What happened to the "do no harm" part of their Hippocratic Oath? Why is there no Operation Warp Speed for the development of a treatment for *this* pandemic?

 

This is not the way I'd planned to spend my twighlight years. And I'm so tired. So. Very. Tired.

 

I know many will say being angry serves no purpose and that it is counterproductive. That the thing to do is back-burner the anger and focus our very limited energies on healing ourselves. And I don't disagree. But at the same time, the fact is that the anger is there. It's there, and I don't know what to do with it. I can't ignore the wolf at the door. It has to be acknowledged and observed so that it doesn't find a way in. 

[ChessieCat]

I think there are many members here as well people in the rest of the world and are not members here that have been badly affected by pharmaceuticals, not just psychiatric drugs, but others, that totally understand what you have written as well as agree with your sentiments.

 

It is okay to be angry.  What has been done to anyone who has been harmed by prescription drugs should not have happened.

 

But it's important not to let the anger eat away at you.  That's just another way that "they" win.  I realise that it is easier said than done, but for your own well-being it is best to find and learn ways of responding to the anger instead of reacting.

 

I don't mean this to sound condescending and belittle what you have gone through and are still going through, but a lot of people have bad things happen in their life, it's just different things.  Many peoples' lives don't turn out the way they had hoped and pictured it would.  Unfortunately that's just a fact of life and we have to learn to deal with whatever happens to us personally, nobody else can do if for us, just like getting through the waves of tapering/withdrawal.

 

I think it would be a good idea for you to try and find a counsellor who will validates your feelings and will help you to learn ways to manage the anger so that it doesn't continue to consume you.

 

I wish you all the best and hope that you manage to work through this and come out the other side of it.

[Dejavu]

@ChessieCat of course you are right. We are all fighting the same battle together, yet strangely apart. The same can be said of the rest of the world right now, due to the pandemic.  I've just never had such an intense anger wash over me like that. Probably due in some measure to this wave I find myself in. But it would probably have eventually come anyway.

 

The hard truth is that we are all exactly where we are, and if we want out, must fight our way out. The easy truth is that this too shall pass, and thanks to SA and each other, we know how to make that happen. Perhaps I can focus and channel the anger into motivation. To finish this on behalf of myself and my partner. To reclaim our lives and my health. In that way, I can turn the anger to my advantage. As they say, living well is the best revenge.

 

I've never been a quitter. But holy cow, this is hard! I've never been tested like this. Yesterday, I felt like giving up. But today, I'm thinking this might be a - or perhaps *the* - defining moment in my life. 

 

How is your sciatica coming along? You are such an inspiration for so many, including me. I thank you for offering a more healthy perspective to my post. It is deeply appreciated. Probably more than you know.

[Erell]

Hello Dejavu ☺

 

Can only ditto what Chessiecat said.

And anger also seem to be a common neuroemotion in WD.

Brassmonkey wrote some pieces about it, and about Emotionnal Spiral. 

 

I think we all can understand very well your feelings 😉

I can feel this anger sometimes too, especially when I think about big Pharma and psychiatry. 

But rather than a consuming emotion, I try to use my anger as a motivation and a strenght  : I won't let Big Pharma win and determine my all life, no way ! ☺

 

Hang on dear, we have a world to educate !

 

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, Dejavu said:

But holy cow, this is hard!

It has often been said on this site that this is the hardest thing you will ever go through, but when you come out the other side you will be much stronger and better able to handle the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

[Dejavu]

True words were never spoken, @Gridley! Thanks for your support. It means a lot.

[Dejavu]

2 hours ago, Erell said:

Hang on dear, we have a world to educate !

@Erell, thank you. I'm trying.

[Hanna72]

Hi @Dejavu

Just read your post about your anger and frustration, and I can totally relate to everything you said. During my tapering process I was fuelled with anger. You can use it as a motivation and determination. The silver lining is not letting it consume you. 
The true feeling behind anger is hurting  and frustration I think. And I believe everyone in here can relate. 
Don’t ever give up, you are fighting for your well being and you deserve to live your best life with content and piece 🙏
Keep moving forward, don’t look back, be thankful for that your eyes have opened to this “drug” world we live in, cause so many have not.

My best wishes to you🙏
 

[Dejavu]

@Hanna72, thank you for those kind words and good advice. I have reached the same conclusion about using it as motivation. I will channel the anger into my victory. I'm stubborn, and I'm strong. Thank you for reminding me of that. 

 

I'm glad to see you are doing well. I hope you can continue to provide updates. Your post-zero journey is one that it isn't well-represented here. I understand the need for people to put it all behind them, truly I do. I've needed to take breaks as well. But so many of us who are in the throes of tapering need to hear about what happens between "jump" and "success story." 

 

Again, thank you so much for the moral support. It was very needed! I hope you have a wonderful day!

[Dejavu]

This would be day 8 of this wave. Yesterday was pretty good - still had morning anxiety and dizziness, but it resolved by early afternoon and I felt pretty well. I was hoping for a nice, clean linear end to this wave...yeah, right. We all know that's just not the nature of recovery. For proof of that, I have today. This morning's anxiety and dizziness left quickly, but the anxiety returned around noon and has brought visual distortion and gastro issues with it. Lovely.

 

I'm thinking that the fact that I felt improvement yesterday, coupled with the fact that the symptoms are morphing, is a good sign. I feel a little pathetic for having to seek reassurance since by now, I know the "drill." It took me 10 months to stabilize on my RI, and another two to begin my taper. And I was pretty much symptom-free at that time. I guess I naively hoped that, by going slow on my taper, I would stay that way. I certainly had small upticks in symptoms around 5-8 days of each cut, but they were nothing compared to this wave. But then again, this wave is nowhere near the intensity of my crash in 2018. Logic would tell me that if I stabilized from that, I will from this, too. Right?

[Dejavu]

@brassmonkey

I have a question regarding modification to the Slide Method:

 

Background, so you don't have to go through my thread; 30 day taper, crash, RI. 10 months for stabilization, began tapering after 12. I've only tapered 3x so far. I'm holding now due to a wave which was likely helped along by my use of a steroid nose spray, and added angst regarding the COVID situation, as I live in Texas. 

 

My first cut was a straight 5% with a one month hold, which went well. I then tried a straight 10% decrement. The uptick in symptoms around days 5-8 were a little more rugged, so I decided the next cut would be a BM Slide. 30 days later, just as I was about to implement it, I got another 2-3 days of symptom uptick. So I waited another two weeks, then did the first 2.5% with no issues. A week later, the second one brought the same uptick in symptoms as before. So I held in the middle of the 4-week slide for another 30 days, at which time I completed the third and fourth decrements. Two weeks after those, although I wasn't having bad symptoms, doing the next cut "didn't feel right" (hard to explain - intuition, maybe - COVID ramping up in my state, and worsening of allergy symptoms, hence the use of Flonase). So I held another two weeks, and sure enough, I've now been gifted with a nasty little wave. 

 

I really like the idea of sliding down rather than an all-at-once cut. But I can't ignore that (1) my body apparently clears zoloft so slowly (a DNA test shows me to be a slow metabolizer of SSRIs) that I get residual symptoms a month after a cut, and (2) that 10% is, at least for now, too much. With all that in mind, could you suggest a modification of the BM Slide, taking into account the fact that I tend to experience WD symptoms approx. 30 days following a cut? Thanks for your help. Sorry to write a novel.

[Erell]

16 hours ago, Dejavu said:

Logic would tell me that if I stabilized from that, I will from this, too. Right?

Right !

 

Happy to read you had calmer moments, enjoy them ☀️

[brassmonkey]

Hi Dejavu-- Sorry to hear that you are having problems with your taper. It sounds like your body may be a bit sensitive to the changes. I think using a different method on each of your last three tapers may be confusing your body a bit.  Consistency is a key, but you have to find what to be consistent with. I'm thinking that two reductions of 2.5% with a two week hold then another two reduction of 2.5% and three week hold would be a good place to start. That would give you 10% every nine weeks.  I think the more frequent and longer holds will help your body sort things out and stabilize better.  It may take a couple of cycles for things to settle in to a rhythm and there will still be some swings in symptoms, but with luck the waves will calm down and not be a problem.  If there is a sudden spike in symptoms some additional hold time is always a good idea. Once your body gets use to the idea of tapering it may be possible to modify the hold times to speed things up, but let's get the taper established first. 

[Dejavu]

@brassmonkey

 

1 hour ago, brassmonkey said:

I think using a different method on each of your last three tapers may be confusing your body a bit.  Consistency is a key, but you have to find what to be consistent with

That's my theory, too, plus throwing Flonase into the mix. The sxs didn't start until 40 days after my last taper, and two days after Flonase (which I have, of course, discontinued). No doubt my slow metabolizer status feeds into this as well. 

 

Thank you so much, Tom. That sounds like a smart, conservative plan going forward. These symptoms are slowly settling out, and as soon as they do (plus a couple of weeks), I will implement this plan. As always, I appreciate your input. You are truly the "Withdrawal Whisperer." 😎 Hope you and Monica are well and busy enjoying life!