Tanha: never stabilize under diazepam but want to taper

[Altostrata]

35 minutes ago, Tanha said:

(Just to make sure we read the same posts: So you don’t believe the ct cymbalta is the cause of my hyperarousel and the insomnia in summer?)

 

That might have been the problem in the summer, but my guess is overdrugging is your problem now. I've explained this perhaps a dozen times. Can you stop asking this question?

 

How you work this out with your wife is up to you. There is no "crisis" unless you make it one, or if you suffer organ failure from all the drugs you're taking.

 

Think hard: Is making things into "crisis" perhaps a habit of yours? Is "freaking out" something you do often? If so, you need to stop it right now, or you will continue in this hospitalization and drug cycle.

 

You're going to continue to have waves of various symptoms. You will have to stop "freaking out" and begging for help in the hospital -- they don't know what to do for withdrawal syndrome, all they'll do is give you more drugs -- and from your wife, she doesn't know what to do, either.

 

It's up to you to have the discipline to go off drugs. We can't help you here if you "freak out" and get yourself locked up in the closed ward.

[Tanha]

Dear @Altostrata

 

thank you for your patience and concern. I really got your message.

 

i have a serious problem that I think I didn‘t point out clearly:

 

1. i have terrible hyperarousel 1,5 hours after taking quetiapine and diazepam.

 

that may be the paradoxical reaction.

 

2. and I also have the same debilitating hyperarousel always just before taking the next dose of the medication 4 times a day. (This has been gone for a while on higher doses and is back now). I can only interpret this as „there is an arousel that comes through when the last dose of medication wears off“.

Today I have it from getting up until lunch so far and very strong.

 

My last hope has been that the mirtazapine was too stimulating and causing this. That is why I reduced mirtazapine so fast during summer (45 to 30 than slower to 16 mg one month ago).

It seems now that it didn‘t help. 

 

This arousel let all my withdrawals this year fail.

now it started to come back big time the last couple of days and today it seems to not go away at all (for the whole morning) just being as bad and persistent as it has been in may/June/July. 

 

It is not a mental arousel at all, only physical! And it’s really bad.

I had a very long time in early summer enduring this/fighting this without more medication (tried to meditate, distract, sports, everything). It only got worse and worse staying on the same dose of quetiapine and diazepam or with every attempt reducing these. 

We tried this for many months and it led me finally to my significant updose. 

 

Since i tried a lot to get rid of it and nothing worked it gives me great concern because it is telling me: you need the meds, you are dependent and now you reached a dose in withdrawl where it is popping up again.

 

I really fear it is dependence and/or an underlying cause like protracted withdrawl from ct cymbalta, ct Wellbutrin, mirtazapine or interdosewithdrawl of diazepam.

 

I must reduce quetiapine and diazepam with this terrible arousel but how?

 

I will try to endure this hyperarousel for a couple of days hoping it is withdrawl and that it will get better. It is so bad one cannot tolerate it as wd normal.

 

What do you think?

anything else I can do?

[Tanha]

I just feel like being in the worst withdrawl but I don‘t know. Hyperarousel is severe and persistent today. 

Have had it this bad every day from May to July/August. Puh. It is not really bearable.

i need to find the cause. 

It is nothing mentally, really only a physical sensation. 

 

Is it possible that it is an adverse reaction of my medication (quetiapine and diazepam and mirtazapine) 

and at the same time a symptome of withdrawl (I reduced quetiapine too fast the last couple of weeks)?

 

what else could it be?

my ct of cymbalta and Wellbutrin in March/April? 

Why is it so bad and persistent today?

 

It really seems that the medication stopped all of a sudden now working again (like early summer). This is a real crisis. 

 

how do I find out (without freaking out cause it is intense and persistent throughout the day like it has been in early summer for many months)?

 

how do I find out if rapid withdrawl helps and surviving it? It is too intense already, really!.

 

please, 

Any idea welcome. 

It does not stop for a minute any more.

no distraction possible.

 

i wish it was withdrawl but in early summer it persistent no matter what (nothing helped, no meditation, sports, distraction, dosereduction, holding, nothing.)

 

is it best to cut the quetiapine very fast or is that too intense for me?

i am on 235 mg. A long way to go

so I need a survivable strategy.

[Tanha]

DEAR @Altostrata

 

i am sorry for demanding too much.

today‘s hyperarousel is just so bad and persistent now and i hope it fits into the idea of tapering quetiapine fast. 

I am just afraid of what is coming up with the worst hyperarousel persisting all day today being much worse than all I described to you so far. 

It made the many attempts to reduce diazepam throughout this year fail traumatically.

Today is a huge step backwards.

Thank you for going through everything for me. Thank you so much.

[Tanha]

did I take too much magnesium yesterday (3x360 mg) and could this cause today’s extreme hyperarousel?

i need magnesium against musclecramps but this hyperarousel is too extreme. 

 

I used to take 

magnesiumcitrate 

 

I switched to magnesiumglyzinate two days ago. Since then my „fluelike“ symptoms are gone but 

today i have the worst and longest hyperarousel. 

I read that magnesiumglyzinate makes sleepy which could add to my paradoxical reaction to my meds. 

noticed also that i had trouble falling asleep yesterday and woke a lot during the night. Today I will try to take less and only citrate. have taken 360 mgglyzinate in the Morning already so i can only try the change from afternoon on. 

 

Dear @JanCarol

what Do you think?

 

i used to take twice 200 mg and once 360 mg magnesium daily but yesterday more (3x360 mg). 

 

I cannot believe less magnesium could help but if I try how should I take it? 

I need I for legcramps.

[Tanha]

 

please everybody, pray that the „magnesiummistake“ solves my arousel soon and that i can continue the withdrawl of quetiapine in the next days.

I am too unstable today. 

 

It is difficult to make the right decision anyway:

 

i definitely have a paradoxical reaction to my meds and the idea to cut quetiapine rather fast is really important. 

 

Yet somehow this strategy is barely feasible now because I am in such a bad condition.  I have had the worst symptoms and many of them for almost a year now, am hospitalized for most of that time, too. 

Now there finall seems to be a good way to get out of this misery

only that by now I am very weak, traumatized by many failed withdrawals (from diazepam) 

and on top of all my biggest problem came back with vengeance today: 

severe hyperarousel of the intensity that one is almost begging for a pill to end this (no, I won‘t just it s such an intense agitation). 

 

. ... The worst of all situations to cut rapidly quetiapine again as would be necessary. But everything else worsens the situation, to, if the hyperarousel is not only due to withdrawl (a rapid one so far) but because of staying on the drug itself,

 

this is exacte the situation that has put me in hospital: being too agitated for weeks to go on like this or even push through a withdrawl! 

Yuk, this sucks.

always reading everywhere to stabilize before the next cut. This is but a dream for me since being put on these drugs in spring. 

 

And the fast taper if quetiapine- even if it is the best and only option - could make things worse in that I don‘t make it with the hyperarousel and being put back up on more drugs.

bad timing!

 

 

i Managerin go home today - hopefully over night again. But it is a rough ride so far, clenching teeth all the time.

[Tanha]

Dear @Altostrata

 

?which dose of the day must/can I cut best or do I cut 10 % of each:

quetiapine 235 mg to 212 mg:

 

morning 50 mg

Noon.     55 mg

evening. 62,5 mg

night.      67,5 mg

[Tanha]

Took 8 am 

360 mg magnesiumglyzinate 

 

2:40 pm

120 mg magnesiumcitrate 

3:30 pm bad fluelike symptom is back, fatigue, less arousel, ringing ears, feeling physically really bad, slight nausea

 

 

yesterday I took 4 x 360 mg magnesiumglyzinate

the fluelike symptoms and anhedonia were much better 

but this whole morning arousel was incredibly bad

[Tanha]

Is it advisable if I cut the quetiapine in the moment of the most severe symptoms 

 

although they are most likely from a paradoxical reaction?

 

i always thought during my withdrawals the whole year I had nothing to loose when I reduced meds because I felt terrible already.

yet i had. Sleep for example. 

 

On the other side I have to reduce my toxic burden in order to get rid of the paradoxical symptoms and start healing.

 

i am today at my worst again. 

Good time to start the next cut because things are at its worst?

 

I am so afraid of the days to come.

i feel really awful.

[ChessieCat]

 

From this post which I suggest you go back and read the whole post:

 

20 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

I have to respectfully disagree with  @JanCarol ,

 

my feeling is you should continue to reduce quetiapine fairly aggressively.

 

I do not see any point in holding longer than 2 or 3 weeks to monitor your awful adverse reactions to the constant overdosing.

 

Although it appears your nervous system is exceptionally resilient, I fear for the health of your organs.

 

 

[JanCarol]

Hey Tanha - 

 

Please put Wellbutrin dose and weeks in your signature.

 

How much magnesium are you on?

 

On 12/30/2018 at 12:19 AM, Tanha said:

I would love to cut the Benzos first. 

 

The eyesight problems could be caused by the Seroquel.  It causes far more long term damage than the benzo.  It is the stronger drug.  

In the old days, the benzo would be called "a minor tranquiliser," while the Seroquel would be called a "major tranquiliser."

 

So . . . why would you stop the minor one first?

 

3 hours ago, Tanha said:

did I take too much magnesium yesterday (3x360 mg) and could this cause today’s extreme hyperarousel?

i need magnesium against musclecramps but this hyperarousel is too extreme. 

 

This is an extremely high dose of magnesium.

 

A normal dose of magnesium is about 400-600 mg per day.  You are taking over 1000 mg.  This could be causing your diarrhea, too.

 

If you were at home, you could reduce your magnesium and soothe your muscles by taking magnesium baths (Epsom Salts).  Your body is unlikely to absorb any more magnesium than it needs, when you soak in it.

 

Taking it in your digestive system however, could be giving you the runs, and perhaps - when combined with your 3 brakes (Mirtazapine at that dose is sedating, not stimulating) - sending you into hyperarousal.

 

 

[Tanha]

Thank you very much @JanCarol

 

what Must i get checked at the optometrist?

 

eypressure, what Else.

 

one doctor wants me to go to an eyeclinic far away which I think I cannot make.

 

the optometrist in my hospital is not good but I think the basic tests he can do.

 

he is an a... though. 

 

He he gave a fellow patient eyemedication that had gone off. 

She didn‘t know, used it and was blind for 10 minutes. She panicked. 

When she confronted him he could not care less. 

 

How do I get to my signature?

have only my iPhone.

[Tanha]

Why can I sleep if having a paradoxical reaction to my too sedating drugs?

 

i know that my body puts me into arousel during the day because he tries to fight the too much sedation by my medication. 

 

But i am on a high dose of quetiapine (235 mg) and I still can sleep.

It feels like chemical sleep. 

I cannot imagen that my body finds rest on its one again. 

Since on these drugs or for any other unknown reason (ct cymbalta eg.) i cannot Rest during the day, not a minute. My body never let and i wonder how it will be like when this comes back. 

Until then I mentally and physically pace and pace and pace. 

[Tanha]

I am glad that altostrata brought up the idea of a paradoxical reaction in my case.

 

it is the only way to start getting a foot into  a withdrawlstrategy at all within a messed up polydrugwithdrawl. Starting with this idea one can see step by step if it any change/step is valid or not and adjust the process. I need help with this, at least encouragement but I can get my focus back on track myself on brighter days.

Yes, it will be painful and success is not guaranteed.

 

but this idea already is so much more than anything my doctors can come up with if they would even bother to see a link beteeen medication and problems (of course form them it is all depression and anxiety.) 

 

to have something to start from is really worth something - especially for someone like me being in constant doubt. 

 

Until now I could only withdraw by reacting short term to symptoms. I knew the rules of slow taper but applying them is difficult if severe symptoms come and go. 

 

I write all this to fight severe brainfog making me even more depressed. Will this ever be all right again?

i cannot believe in anything anymore. Argh!

[Tanha]

13 days since last cut of quetiapine

1 month and 1 week after last cut mirtazapine

66 days since cutting levomepromazine to zero

9 months since ct cymbalta and promethazine

 

 

I cannot correct change in font size because it appears normal and all the same in editing mode. Sorry.

 

30 dec

 

4 am.        woke, very broken sleep

4:30.         slept

5:30 am   woke

8 am.        hyperarousel through the roof

                  until noon

8:15 am.  meat, cucumber, oats, 

                  hempprotein

                  360 mg magnesiumglyzinate

                  50 mg quetiapine       

                  1 mg diazepam

                  vitamin d

8:30 am   slightly better

8;40 am.  airhunger, chestburn

9 am.        Terrible hyperarousel

                  anxiety, anhedonia

9:30 am.  hyperarousel throughout the

                  roof again  

11 am.      Noni juice

noon.         meat, vegetables, ,rice

                   55 mg quetiapine        

                   1,5 mg diazepam

                   arousel little better

                   before I got the meds

1:30 pm.   akathisia, ringing ears

2:20 pm.    Hyperarousel worse,

                   Stuffed head, ringing ears

                   Vitamine juice

                   120 mg magnesiumcitrate

3 pm.          Anhedonia, fatigue

                    little flue, akathisia

                    little less arousel

3:30 pm.    burning chest, brainfog

                    Slight nausea

4 pm.          severe tight chest, locked

                    inside, burning skin, hot

4:40 pm.    arousel, anhedonia,

                    feeling physically awful, 

                    loss of orientation,

                    Feeling of no musclecontrol

5:50 pm.    meat, cucumber

                    oats, hempprotein

                    magnesium

                    62,5 mg quetiapine      

                    1,5 mg diazepam     

                    120 magnesiumcitrate

                     dizzy, anhedonia, anxiety

                     for 1 hour, lobotomized

6:20 pm.     More arousel, airhunger,

                     tight chest, feeling less bad 

                     but blunted emotions and

                     severe brainfog until late

                     akathisia little, Dizzy,

                     less musclecontrol 

8 pm.          16 mg mirtazapine, still

                     restless

8:30 pm.     120 mg magnesiumcitrate

9:30 pm.     67,5 mg quetiapine    

                    1 mg diazepam

 

compared to days before:

 

Less and different magnesium,

very broken sleep,

Worst and longest hyperarousel during the morning (magnesium?) and still bad during the day, no feelings at all, 

anhedonia little less painful but again in the evening and intense, terrible brainfog and feeling physically awful in the afternoon, no window, all afternoon slight anxiety, ears ringing a lot, terribly restless all day, lobotomized, eyes bad all day

[Tanha]

3 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

From this post which I suggest you go back and read the whole post:

 

 

Dear @ChessieCat

Thank you for adding your opinion. It helps a lot to keep myself on the right track.

i am very thankful to be on SA

 

beign so sick and brainfoggy and scared makes such decisions for me extremely difficult. I guess you know all these difficulties.

[ChessieCat]

3 hours ago, Tanha said:

Dear @ChessieCat

Thank you for adding your opinion. It helps a lot to keep myself on the right track.

 

Hi Tanha,

 

I was not providing an opinion, I was bringing your attention to (reminding you) what Alto had said before.

[Altostrata]

20 hours ago, Tanha said:

Dear @Altostrata

 

.....

 

1. i have terrible hyperarousel 1,5 hours after taking quetiapine and diazepam.

 

that may be the paradoxical reaction.

 

2. and I also have the same debilitating hyperarousel always just before taking the next dose of the medication 4 times a day. (This has been gone for a while on higher doses and is back now). I can only interpret this as „there is an arousel that comes through when the last dose of medication wears off“.

Today I have it from getting up until lunch so far and very strong.

 

....

 

1. Correct, this appears to happen at the same time EVERY DAY. This indicates the 2 drugs  together are TOO STRONG and causing a paradoxical reaction.

 

2. Since you subject your nervous system to this FOUR TIMES A DAY, you are experiencing it approximately every 6 hours -- fairly constantly. You are interpreting the hyperarousal from the earlier overdosing as interdose withdrawal prior to the next dose.

 

 

16 hours ago, Tanha said:

Dear @Altostrata

 

?which dose of the day must/can I cut best or do I cut 10 % of each:

quetiapine 235 mg to 212 mg:

 

morning 50 mg

Noon.     55 mg

evening. 62,5 mg

night.      67,5 mg

 

You could probably drop 5mg at noon and not feel it. Who designed this ascending dosing of Seroquel?

 

 

11 hours ago, Tanha said:

13 days since last cut of quetiapine

1 month and 1 week after last cut mirtazapine

66 days since cutting levomepromazine to zero

9 months since ct cymbalta and promethazine

 

 

I cannot correct change in font size because it appears normal and all the same in editing mode. Sorry.

 

30 dec

 

4 am.        woke, very broken sleep

4:30.         slept

5:30 am   woke

8 am.        hyperarousel through the roof

                  until noon

8:15 am.  meat, cucumber, oats, 

                  hempprotein

                  360 mg magnesiumglyzinate

                  50 mg quetiapine       

                  1 mg diazepam

                  vitamin d

8:30 am   slightly better

8;40 am.  airhunger, chestburn

9 am.        Terrible hyperarousel

                  anxiety, anhedonia

9:30 am.  hyperarousel throughout the

                  roof again  

11 am.      Noni juice

noon.         meat, vegetables, ,rice

                   55 mg quetiapine        

                   1,5 mg diazepam

                   arousel little better

                   before I got the meds

1:30 pm.   akathisia, ringing ears

2:20 pm.    Hyperarousel worse,

                   Stuffed head, ringing ears

                   Vitamine juice

                   120 mg magnesiumcitrate

3 pm.          Anhedonia, fatigue

                    little flue, akathisia

                    little less arousel

3:30 pm.    burning chest, brainfog

                    Slight nausea

4 pm.          severe tight chest, locked

                    inside, burning skin, hot

4:40 pm.    arousel, anhedonia,

                    feeling physically awful, 

                    loss of orientation,

                    Feeling of no musclecontrol

5:50 pm.    meat, cucumber

                    oats, hempprotein

                    magnesium

                    62,5 mg quetiapine      

                    1,5 mg diazepam     

                    120 magnesiumcitrate

                     dizzy, anhedonia, anxiety

                     for 1 hour, lobotomized

6:20 pm.     More arousel, airhunger,

                     tight chest, feeling less bad 

                     but blunted emotions and

                     severe brainfog until late

                     akathisia little, Dizzy,

                     less musclecontrol 

8 pm.          16 mg mirtazapine, still

                     restless

8:30 pm.     120 mg magnesiumcitrate

9:30 pm.     67,5 mg quetiapine    

                    1 mg diazepam

 

compared to days before:

 

Less and different magnesium,

very broken sleep,

Worst and longest hyperarousel during the morning (magnesium?) and still bad during the day, no feelings at all, 

anhedonia little less painful but again in the evening and intense, terrible brainfog and feeling physically awful in the afternoon, no window, all afternoon slight anxiety, ears ringing a lot, terribly restless all day, lobotomized, eyes bad all day

 

Paradoxical reactions in red.

[Tanha]

9 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Hi Tanha,

 

I was not providing an opinion, I was bringing your attention to (reminding you) what Alto had said before.

Yes, thank you. That is what I actually ment. And this is of help, too.

[Tanha]

Today is very different.

slept like a rock and didn‘t wake up in the morning. That never happend since I have taken these meds without the levomepromazine.

fatigue I very intense. Arousel is better but still there, feels like the fatigue covers it.

The fatigue seems to persist during the day now.

 

I don‘t know if the reduction of magnesium and change from glyzinate to citrate is the cause. instead of 1440 mg the day before yesterday

i took yesterday only 810 (360 mg in the morning and during the day 3 times 150 mg citrat). 

 

I still feel sick (fluelike sick) during the whole day now since a couple of days, though not as debilitating as the last months.

 

i used to have windows in the morning and evening. These are gone now.

[Tanha]

Dear @Altostrata

thank you so much. 

 

i designed the daily dosages with a lot of brainfog (all the time). 

 

Quetiapine:

m 50 mg

n 55 mg

e 62,5 mg

n 67,5 mg

 

doctors presription originally was

4 x 100 mg in july/August. 

 

Actually I should not know the amount and dosage of the diazepam.

it is doctor‘s design. 

 

M 1mg

n 1,5

e 1,5

n 1

 

i will take less magnesium from today on and only citrate.

 

4 x 120 mg.

 

flue and fatigue are intense today, ringing ears all day now, arousel bearable but strong. slept like a rock without waking up in the morning. Very new, very unusual.

Actually the fatigue during the whole morning was already stronger the day before yesterday with the huge amount of magnesium that I took before.

 

the flue is bad but bearable and almost constant throughout the day since two days. No windows but also no spikes. I wonder what is the cause of this flue that I have since more than two months. 

Seems to become my wd normal with the fatigue and the allday arousel (which I have besides the spikes now, too and gives me great concern). 

i cannot really function with these symptoms but I can survive them. 

 

I don‘t understand why I absolutely always used to feel almost back to normal after taking mirtazapin at 8pm and until 7/8 am next morning and why this has ceased a couple of days ago.

And why anhedoniaspike has moved to 4 pm instead of the morning.

 

 

i think of doing the next cut of quetiapine today or tomorrow. It is two weeks since the last cut and three weeks after the intermittent emergencyupdose.

 

i am very ambivalent whether to cut every two or three weeks. I fear that the flue and nausea and anhedonia and part of the arousel are also severe withdrawlsymptoms.

  

„  19 hours ago,  Tanha said: 

Dear @Altostrata

 

?which dose of the day must/can I cut best or do I cut 10 % of each:

quetiapine 235 mg to 212 mg:

 

morning 50 mg

Noon.     55 mg

evening. 62,5 mg

night.      67,5 mg

 

You could probably drop 5mg at noon and not feel it. Who designed this ascending dosing of Seroquel?“

 

 

 you don‘t mean that i only should reduce 5 mg (not 10 % of the daily dose)? or you only wanted to point out that it won‘t make a difference, right?

[Tanha]

Thank you for survivingantidepressants @Altostrata giving withdrawl so many faces.

i don‘t get it how most doctors and patients can ignore withdrawl so much even if they really want to help.

 

i am in psychiatry for 8 months now and I see withdrawl all around me and I see doctors and patients ignoring any withdrawl at all. 

I guess the notion of withdrawlsymptoms is too terrifying and ignoring is less painful?!

 

I see unidentified withdrawlpatients by the dozens each day and they only know that they have constantly changing medications and severe symptoms but do not put this into any connection with withdrawl. Virtually nobody does that. In fact they ignore me or even fear me for doing that. They don‘t want to see that because they could!

 

i have been to another psychiatry in spring. Same story. 

 

Everybody hates or fears thinking to be made helpless by withdrawl but nobody seems to fear of being made helpless by pills at all. 

 

I guess it is all about accepting a certain amount of helplessness in order to be able to see withdrawl at all. 

 

It happens very often that we (patients) get confronted by nurses and doctors that we must stop making them feel helpless. They actually say that quite often, in a very polite way though. 

[Shep]

On 12/13/2018 at 12:21 AM, Tanha said:

Yes, I do, 

the doctors initially wanted to help me taper mirtazapin slowly but then they said they won't cut tablets or make liquids so they said. After that they change their attitude towards me in that they got angry about "me determining the way of medical treatment". They urged me to take more antidepressions in order to have one medication I am not in control of but they are. I am not allowed to know the name of it. I consented because otherwise I had to leave the clinic they said. I cannot go home, really. Since then I pretend to feel slowly improving and attend all therapies although I can't. I think that makes them not longer urging the new medication on me. They haven't mentioned it for weeks. And my situation due to my withdrawlsymptoms is getting so severe I cannot lie to them much Longer. 

If they find out about my drugchanges they will make me leave hospital immediately. 

I am here for 8 months now and do not function at all. I cannot sit in a car or go to a shop. I am severely hospitalized. 

Sorry for telling a sad story here. 

 

1 hour ago, Tanha said:

Actually I should not know the amount and dosage of the diazepam.

it is doctor‘s design. 

 

Tanha, when are you due to be released from the hospital?  Are you afraid of leaving or are you afraid of your current home? Are you sure about the dose of the diazepam (have you seen your chart)? 

 

Sorry for bombarding you with so many questions, but since you are on a unknown drug, trying to taper without the doctors knowing, etc. it would be easier to get off these drugs outside of a hospital. 

[Tanha]

13 minutes ago, Shep said:

 

 

Tanha, when are you due to be released from the hospital?  Are you afraid of leaving or are you afraid of your current home? Are you sure about the dose of the diazepam (have you seen your chart)? 

 

Sorry for bombarding you with so many questions, but since you are on a unknown drug, trying to taper without the doctors knowing, etc. it would be easier to get off these drugs outside of a hospital. 

Dear shep

 

thanx for asking.

 

well,

 

i saw my chart and the doctors told my wife my diazepam dosages.

i am not reducing that at the moment. 

After 5 attempts throughout the year to cut only 0,5 mg from 5mg failed traumatically the doctors and I think there is an „underlying“ cause of the hyperarousel going through the roof.

the doctors are sure it is depression! (No, it is not!) I know it is withdrawl or problems with one of my other meds.

 

I am not due to leave hospital and except from the diazepam I can dose my meds (without the docs to know, hiding with the scale, pills and severe brainfog in the bathroom). 

 

Yes I am hospitalized and afraid to leave the hospital. But...

 

i have therapies everyday. I am so little functional that I would stay in bed at home all day, which happend from February to May. if I faint (which I do) I am in hospital already. I have patients helping me going for  walk each Day. Since I cannot eat properly or even provide food for myself I am glad to have three set meals.

 

i just started to go home for the weekends and I am confronted with loads of fear and agony. Hope I can continue this. 

cannot do much (no tv, no books, no music, no smalltalk is possible - akathisia, anhedonia, anxiety, hyperarousel and fluelike agony make this impossible for months). I try but cannot do it.

 

I have a bicycle at the hospital but I cannot use it. heavy anhedonia, loads of anxiety, weakness, ....

 

i fight through every minute of the day.

 

 

Thanx for asking.

i am glad about this. 

[Shep]

Thanks for your response, Tanha. It's clear you feel safe at the hospital, are eating regularly, and have made friends, and that's important. 

[Tanha]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

Thanks for your response, Tanha. It's clear you feel safe at the hospital, are eating regularly, and have made friends, and that's important. 

You are so kind. 

it is such a relief to have you guys n Girls  at SA. 

[Tanha]

Dear @Altostrata

 

i have a quick but important question.

 

the symptom „feeling I cannot control muscles and will“ cornerns me 

in that I don‘t have an idea why this is to my notion much worse since the last cuts getting below 262 mg quetiapine and 20 to 16 mg mirtazapin (and levomepromazine to zero). 

 

It is somehow connected or parallel with the severe anhedonia and brainfog which only got so intense after these last Cuts. Never had that before!

 

i do think it is caused by the quetiapine but why didn‘t this bother me at much higher doses or why didn‘t I notice it then?

 

and the new symptom of loss of orientation and control ...

 

did I just care less about it being too sedated? 

It is really intense all during the day, yet I forget about it lying in bed or on the sofa. The new symptom of fatigue makes it worse, too.

 

i almost feel paralyzed and every move or thought is a real Effort. It feels like I don‘t know where to activate my brain to be able to walk and doing it is almost a numb pain.

 

i cut quetiapine by 10% today from 235 to 211,5 mg.

 

Morning 50 mg

noon 48 mg

evening 54,5 mg

night 59 mg. 

 

Hope to survive this after only two weeks of holding. Don‘t even know how a managed to cut and weight the new doses (maths has been done by my Wife).

 

what do you think of taking quetiapine and Diazepam apart?

how much time inbetween? I have to take diazepam to doctors regime 4 times a day. 

I am very afraid of the fatigue getting worse but also of the possibility to make more mistakes taking the drugs properly at too many different times a day. My brainfog and cognition is really bad.

 

but if taking apart would make things better I would talk to the doctors getting diazepam less often. At the moment I fear that though.

[JanCarol]

Hey Tanha - 

1 hour ago, Tanha said:

it is such a relief to have you guys n Girls  at SA. 

 

Can I ask you a personal question?  What is your preferred pronoun?  You are listed as female, and have a wife.  I don't mean to be insensitive, but would like to know if you prefer to be "she" or "s/he" or "they" or - ???  I don't know how much this is up for discussion in your country, but it's a pressing issue in Canada and Australia.

OKAY, some time ago you asked me - if you were being bombarded with antihistamine by taking quetiapine.

I gave you a wrong answer, I said at 262 mg, you were getting some antihistamine, but that it was hitting dopamine receptors.

Our wise Shep pointed out to me that I was wrong.  Because you are not taking the 262 mg all at once, and quetiapine has a short, 6 hour half life.   You are taking small, 50-70 mg doses, and just about when that wears off, you get another one.  The smaller the dose, the more of an antihistamine it is.  This drugging schedule is keeping you sedated.  The good news is - your dopamine receptors are probably unaffected by this drugging schedule.  The bad news is, you are getting antihistamine all day long.

So basically, you are getting sedated all - day - long.  Every time you take a dose, it is like another strong strong antihistamine.  The hyperarousal sounds a lot like a paradoxical reaction like Alto has been talking about.  This is another reason it is important to separate your quetiapine from your diazepam.

It sounds like you are doing better with your magnesium - you are still on a high dose, and I'll be curious to hear if your diarrhea improves.

Also - you mentioned that you are taking an undisclosed antidepressant.  How do you know that you are getting this drug?  When do you get it?  Are you able to see the pill?  There are pill-finding applications online to help you identify the pill.  We should make every effort to find out what this is, and how it factors into the mix with your other drugs.

I'm glad to hear you feel safe in the hospital.  Is there a limit on your stay?  Can you help your wife understand that - you aren't good at conversation right now, that it's stressful, and you need a lot of rest?  Many of us went through our withdrawals at home, alone or with family - and in similar states of dysfunctionality like you describe.  Unable to leave bed, or wash, or cook, or read or watch TV or make small talk.  Most people here are familiar with that state.  For now, it's good that you will be going home on weekends, to help you make the shift from one to the other.

But while the hospital is in control of your drugging regime, it's not very easy to adjust it to taper.

I hope you see the sun today.  This year will be the beginning again!

Edited December 31, 2018 by JanCarol

[Tanha]

Dear jancarol,

no, i don‘t mind you asking at all. 

 

I am female. Me and my wife got married last year shortly after same sex marriage was allowed in Germany. 

for the last years it has already been possible to get a contract similar to marriage. We lived in Bavaria then, southern part of Germany, very conservative. It was only possible to get this contract at the „car registration-department“. They did not want to have gay marriage ceremonies being as much worshiped as heterosexual ones.

 

We didn‘t like sitting on a bunch of tyres and say „yes“. We moved to the north and got married. Voilá.

 

Well the ad that they forced upon me: I could stop that because I got the cardiologist on my side saying another bloodpressure lowering medication is impossible for me to take. I had made the deal to withdraw slowly another strong hypotensive drug first to gain more time (levomepromazine). That is done and no i tell them that i am improving so much (which is not true) that I believe the doctors themselves are getting uneasy wit givinme more hypotensive medication. In fact one doc said it does not go well with the mirtazapin. I refused to ct this and they never spoke about the new med since. But I must say I never ever mention the word „depressed“ again not to remind them of the ad. 

I actually had a lawyer ready to help me if they were not telling me the name of it.

 

i know that they will make me leave the hospital soon because I do pretend to getting better. I am glad to hear that one can survive at home. I spoke to baylissa frerick and she told me she had lived only on sardines for months having being held to be able to eat at all. I was bedridden at home from February to May and got really weak (had to learn sitting again and than again in August). They will make me leave immediately if they find out about my pill cutting Business anyway.

 

My my wife is helping me a lot but having me to be almost fed some days is not possible for her with a fulltime job. I cannot get a nurse feeding me at home but I can get a nurse giving me the medication at home. I Still have days where the nurses here in the hospital almost feed me and other days where I have bad akathisia and walk during Meals. 

I thought of finding a personal trainer for the time at home that is coming. But money is an issue. I can only get a nurse once weekly for three months. Friends are many that want to help but they too hab stressing jobs. 

My depression is really severe so that by itself makes life almost impossible.

 

Thank you so much for coming back to the histamine issue.

fatigue is really getting bad so I have to think doing something about it. 

 

Im am very insecure what to change during my daily dosage because the brainfog is terrible and the disorientation. Taking quetiapine and diazepam separate would mean to have more options to make mistakes. That is a real issue. 

[Tanha]

Boy, desorientationreally gets me in the last days.

i wonder if this is due to low bloodpressure crisis on all these sleepingpills.

bloodpressure incidents were worse during levomepromazine taper which is very hypotensive. It got better after that only because I kept myself in constant withdrawl (which raises bloodpressure for a couple of days). Bad idea anyway.

 

I cannot find out if I have a bloodpressure crisis when disorientation hits the worst (me not recognizing where I am) because doctors and nurses refuse to take my pressure because it is the depression!

 

The idea that I take four times a day a strong sleeping pill frightens me. And the quetiapine dose getting lower in withdrawl makes this effect more intense.

 

i do have an electric bloodpressure instrument but I heard that they are not precise enough.

[Tanha]

3 hours ago, JanCarol said:

OKAY, some time ago you asked me - if you were being bombarded with antihistamine by taking quetiapine.

I gave you a wrong answer, I said at 262 mg, you were getting some antihistamine, but that it was hitting dopamine receptors.

Our wise Shep pointed out to me that I was wrong.  Because you are not taking the 262 mg all at once, and quetiapine has a short, 6 hour half life.   You are taking small, 50-70 mg doses, and just about when that wears off, you get another one.  The smaller the dose, the more of an antihistamine it is.  This drugging schedule is keeping you sedated.  The good news is - your dopamine receptors are probably unaffected by this drugging schedule.  The bad news is, you are getting antihistamine all day long.

So basically, you are getting sedated all - day - long.  Every time you take a dose, it is like another strong strong antihistamine.  The hyperarousal sounds a lot like a paradoxical reaction like Alto has been talking about.  This is another reason it is important to separate your quetiapine from your diazepam.

Hi jancarol,

 

question is:

if i have severe problems with paradoxical reaction and severe fatigue and low bloodpressure (95/60 mostly) and being on three „brakes“ 

of which two are more sedating the lower the dose ....

 

... how can I survive a slow taper (which means being stuck for more than a year unter lowdose section?

 

i have been so desperate already to have made fast chaotic tapers just to push my bloodpressure for a couple of days ...

 

how bad bad will it get being at single doses of 10 mg quetiapine?

 

I am scared!

how bad can it get if the body already is fighting the sedation with hyperarousel (paradoxical reaction). 

I feel every day that my body does not allow himself to relax naturally because of all this ****. 

 

Drink loads of water all day and eat salt.

[Tanha]

14 days since last cut of quetiapine

1 month and 2 weeks after last cut mirtazapine

67 days since cutting levomepromazine to zero

9 months since ct cymbalta and promethazine

 

(The font size changes when copy and paste is being done).

 

 

31 dec (down from 235 to211,5 quetiapine)

 

slight problems falling asleep,

7 am.        woke by Alarmglocken

                  fatigue, sick, very unwell

7:30.         mild arousel, fatigue

7:40.         50 mg quetiapine      

                  1 mg diazepam

                  150 mg magnesiumcitrate,

                  Vitamine d

                  mild nausea

                  egg, carrot, oats, hempprotein,

                  oatmilk

8:20 am. pressure on chest, no will,

                 No feeling all day, dry mouth,

                 sick, arousel bearable, dizzy,

                 airhunger

8:50 am. slight vertigo, very fatigue

                 Ringing ears all day,                     

11:30 am. Noni juice

                  chestburn, dizzy, pressure 

                  on chest, short of breath

noon.        meat, potatoe

                  48 mg quetiapine        

                  1,5 mg diazepam

                  150 mg magnesiumcitrate

12:40.        loads of anxiety

1:55 pm.   Arousel, fatigue, akathisia,

                   feeling of no musclecontrol,

                   anhedonia, brainfog all day

2:30 pm.   no musclecontrol, no will

                   Vitamine juice

                   150 mg magnesiumcitrate

                   akathisia

4 pm.         crisis: loss of control and

                    orientation, Dizzy,

                    out of my mind

5 pm.          (108/65)

5:30 pm.     (121/55), earringing worse,

                    crisis little better

                    meat, oats, hempprotein

                    cantaloupe, smoked salmon

                    54,5 mg quetiapine     

                    1,5 mg diazepam

6:45 pm.    loads of anxiety, 

                    heart and chest feeling bad,

                    burning chest, airhunger,

                    sickness better,  

                    disorientation better

                    Dizzy, depressed

7:10 pm.    150 mg magnesiumcitrate,

                    depressed, anhedonia,

                    akathisia slightly

8 pm.          16 mg mirtazapine

9:30 pm.     59 mg quetiapine    

                    1 mg diazepam

 

compared to days before:

 

5 dosages of diazepam have been prepared in syringes with water on dec 30th because I went home over night, tasted very strange, nurse did not shake the solution properly before putting it in the syringes, grrrrrrr!

Much less magnesium, no magnesiumglyzinate,

 

Did not wake up by myself (never happend before while on these meds), 

fatigue all day bad, earringing all day, 

strong feeling of no musclecontrol all day, evening a little better, bearable but strong arousel all day, severe disorientation in the afternoon, like loosing my mind,

a lot more anxiety, all day Dizzy, slightly fluelike sick, worse the whole morning, a lot burning chest and airhunger all day, anhedonia, no feelings, depressed, severe brainfog all day, 

diarrhea better

[Altostrata]

6 hours ago, Tanha said:

the symptom „feeling I cannot control muscles and will“ cornerns me 

in that I don‘t have an idea why this is to my notion much worse since the last cuts getting below 262 mg quetiapine and 20 to 16 mg mirtazapin (and levomepromazine to zero). 

 

It is somehow connected or parallel with the severe anhedonia and brainfog which only got so intense after these last Cuts. Never had that before!

 

i do think it is caused by the quetiapine but why didn‘t this bother me at much higher doses or why didn‘t I notice it then?

 

and the new symptom of loss of orientation and control ...

 

did I just care less about it being too sedated? 

 

Your nervous system continually adapts. It could be that with all the drug changes, it is responding differently to Seroquel now.

 

Those symptoms are symptoms of too much sedation, they are not withdrawal symptoms.

 

Please let us know how you're doing on less Seroquel.

 

If you go home, you will have more control over your drugs. Also, you must find out what that mystery pill is. It's probably against regulations that they aren't telling you. You need to know if it's conflicting with your other drugs.

[Tanha]

1 jan

 

woke at 5 am again with constant hyperarousel and sedation. This tears me apart. As usual. The neverending sore throat and fluelike feeling.

Feeling like getting out of my mind, too. Loosing touch with the ground somehow.

 

good new year everybody.

[JanCarol]

Hey Tanha - 

 

Hi she/her you!  Congratulations on your ability to marry and be legal.  I'm sorry you had to move to do that.  My former neighbourhood in Indiana was very conservative, so I understand what that is like.  Then again - I think that same sex marriage in Indiana was made legal before it was in Australia.  It was a huge kerfuffle here!  Lordy, we had a referendum, then we didn't (because the politicians were afraid of the answer) then we had a poll and it went to Yes, but it still took the politicians dragging their feet before it was legal here, too.

 

15 hours ago, Tanha said:

Well the ad that they forced upon me: I could stop that because I got the cardiologist on my side saying another bloodpressure lowering medication is impossible for me to take.

 

It depends on what it is, how long you've been taking it and at what doses.  Just because a doctor says "you can quit" doesn't mean that it is safe to just do so.  Some antidepressants are hypertensive, not hypotensive.

 

15 hours ago, Tanha said:

They will make me leave immediately if they find out about my pill cutting Business anyway.

 

I don't know what your country is like, but here in Australia, and in America, that is dangerous.  You run the risk of being put on Community Treatment Order (CTO) or force drugged with shots or something.  Please do be careful!

15 hours ago, Tanha said:

My my wife is helping me a lot but having me to be almost fed some days is not possible for her with a fulltime job. I

 

If the food is provided for you, you can feed yourself?  For me, when I was in the extremes of distress, I could not cook or prepare the food, but I could lift it from the plate to my face, chew and swallow.  

I'm glad you contacted Baylissa.  What you are experiencing is not unusual in the realm of psych drugs, and I hope she affirmed that for you.

 

15 hours ago, Tanha said:

I can get a nurse giving me the medication at home.

 

Why would you want this?  A nurse will not allow you to taper.  You need to be self sufficient to taper, to be able to take charge of your drugs and doses.

If you cannot do this, we are unable to help you.

 

15 hours ago, Tanha said:

I thought of finding a personal trainer for the time at home that is coming

 

That sounds like something for later, I don't think you are well enough for anything but the simplest of exercises - like Bed Yoga

Here is a 12 minute Bed Yoga routine:

 

and here is a 5 minute  easy Qi Gong routine:

 

15 hours ago, Tanha said:

Im am very insecure what to change during my daily dosage because the brainfog is terrible and the disorientation. Taking quetiapine and diazepam separate would mean to have more options to make mistakes. That is a real issue. 

 

I am very insecure about changing your drugs while you are under the watchful eye of the hospital.  In my country, in America, and in the UK you run the risk of getting sectioned or force drugged, and that is very scary indeed.

I promise to keep the changes as simple as possible, just tiny changes at a time - but I really would prefer you to be at home before you start tapering.

 

14 hours ago, Tanha said:

I cannot find out if I have a bloodpressure crisis when disorientation hits the worst (me not recognizing where I am) because doctors and nurses refuse to take my pressure because it is the depression!

 

Generally, in my experience, low blood pressure results in dizziness (not enough blood to the head) and fainting.

This disorientation is from the drugs.

13 hours ago, Tanha said:

if i have severe problems with paradoxical reaction and severe fatigue and low bloodpressure (95/60 mostly) and being on three „brakes“ 

of which two are more sedating the lower the dose ....

 

... how can I survive a slow taper (which means being stuck for more than a year unter lowdose section?

 

 

13 hours ago, Tanha said:

I am scared!

how bad can it get if the body already is fighting the sedation with hyperarousel (paradoxical reaction). 

I feel every day that my body does not allow himself to relax naturally because of all this ****. 

 

I hear you Tanha.  The thing is, you are already on the sedating doses.

 

As we ease them off, the hyperarousal should still.

 

I'm thinking that we will gradually reduce your doses by tapering the morning ones away first, then the afternoon ones, and save the evening ones for last.

ARE YOUR QUETIAPINE IN XR PILLS?  This is important because if we could get you down to one evening Seroquel XR, then the daytime doses are easier to make them go away.  Seroquel XR comes in doses as small as 25 mg.  So your 50 mg at night could be XR, and then we can taper away the daytime doses.  You will come awake and alive again!

 

Keep in mind, this will be a slow process, with small changes to let your body adjust to these changes.

 

So - two vital questions:
What is your mystery pill? and

Is your Quetiapine XR (extended Release) or SR (sustained release)?
 

Another suggestion for you besides bed yoga, is you might start socialising with other members here at SA.  There are a lot of people going through what you are going through, and to share it with them might help you feel more supported.  One-on-one with moderators can be taxing, we are all volunteers.  We hope to lead you to greater self-sufficiency, but if we fail to do so, we cannot help.  Perhaps conversations with other members will help you with support, and offering support to other members helps you to get better and understand your symptoms better, too.

 

For example, here is a partial list of other people suffering from quetiapine:
LilBit: polypharmacy nightmare 

Carmie: accidently doubling up onseroquel one day while tapering

Matt7777: Seroquel

Carljungs2ndsymbol: Weaning offseroquel and luvox

 

You might read in their topics and see similar symptoms to your own.

Happy New Year to you, too.  I hope you see the sun today!

 

[Tanha]

Dear @JanCarol

 

it is not an extended release version of quetiapine 

i guess you would call it immediate release then.

 

 

the extended release version is called seroquel prolong. I don’t have that.

 

I fear that the nurse gave me yesterday and before a little to less diazepam but I don‘t know.

I got it prepared with water in a syringe.