Lionheart: on the road to being drug free

[Lionheart]

Hi all!

 

I’m a 54 year old man and I’ve been on a veritable laundry list of meds over the last 35 years.

 

Psychologically I haven’t just been to hell and back but I redecorated the place.

 

Although I’ve stopped taking many different meds over the years they’ve always been replaced by others and, with one notable exception, I’ve never been aware of having withdrawal symptoms and I assume that this is because my psychiatrist has always been careful, as far as possible, to replace one drug with another of a similar type so that my system didn’t ever experience a total loss of any one type of drug. 

 

However, thinking about it now, It is entirely possible that I have indeed experienced withdrawal symptoms but have attributed those to being psychological problems and have then had more meds applied, believing they would help my psychology. This particular train of thought is one that has only just occurred to me now so I haven’t thought it through yet.

 

I mentioned above that there had been one notable exception to me not experiencing withdrawal symptoms when stopping a given drug.

 

Effexor/Venlafaxine.

 

I was put on Effexor around 10 years ago and it didn’t appear to be doing anything for me and so, after a few months on the drug, I was told to wean off it over a period of about two or three weeks.

 

I have never before or since been so sick or so desperate. It was the most revolting experience.

 

The Prozac Bridge method of getting off Effexor was not known to my doctor (or to me) at the time and I was left to my own devices.

 

I turned to the Internet and found someone who had tried, and had good results, with a drug whose name I cannot recall now but which wasn’t a psych drug but rather intended for something related to complications in pregnancy. (The Prozac Bridge method didn’t come up in any of the reading I did. I suspect that at that time it wasn’t yet known.)

 

I went to my regular doctor (not my pdoc) and explained the situation and showed him the info I’d found on the net.

 

He said that the proposed solution couldn’t do me any harm and that I should try it and he gave me a prescription for the drug.

 

I’ll shorten the rest of the story by saying that the drug worked partially, enough to provide worthwhile relief, and I took it for about two or three weeks and was then sufficiently better that I could stop taking it.

 

It was also very expensive and so the process was hard on my bank account.

 

Years later my pdoc urged me to try Effexor again, telling me that it would be easy to get off it if I wanted to by using the Prozac Bridge method. With great reluctance I tried Effexor again and when it did nothing for me I came off it using the Prozac Bridge method without any problems.

More recently, up until about six months ago, I was on:

 

• Aropax 50mg
• Risperdal 0.5mg
• Neurontin 1800mg
• Ritalin 20mg
• Remeron 60mg

 

For quite some time I had been thinking that one or more of the meds I was on might be doing me more harm than good and that I was on altogether too many meds.

 

My psyche and my life as a whole is a huge mess and the idea that getting off some/all of the meds I’m on might actually help me gain some clarity and restore my psyche to some semblance of normality has gained more and more appeal in my thinking.

 

With this in mind I started, rather haphazardly, along the path to getting off these meds.

 

I won’t bore you with the blundering detail except to say that what I have done over the last six months or so has been done as best as I could do it without having enough knowledge to do it properly. I did consult my pdoc before starting but the advice I was given was nothing like what is offered on this website. I wish I had found this website before I started on the weaning path.

 

The process I followed involved withdrawal symptoms including weakness, dizziness, shaking, tiredness, vision disturbances, nausea, suicidal ideation and a bunch of other unpleasant stuff.

 

All of which brings me to where I am now, which is:

 

• Aropax 50mg 25mg
• Risperdal 0.5mg 0mg
• Neurontin 1800mg
• Ritalin 20mg
• Remeron 60mg 15mg

 

I am working on weaning off the Remeron at this point. Slowly.

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Lionheart.

 

On 1/9/2019 at 2:16 AM, Lionheart said:

All of which brings me to where I am now, which is:

 

• Aropax 50mg 25mg
• Risperdal 0.5mg 0mg
• Neurontin 1800mg
• Ritalin 20mg
• Remeron 60mg 15mg

 

That is indeed an interesting basket of drugs. When did you start each of these drugs? Why was Remeron added? How is your sleep? What times of day do you take each drug?

 

Please put ALL your drugs in the Drug Interactions Checker https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php
and copy and paste the results or a link to them in this topic.

 

On 1/9/2019 at 2:16 AM, Lionheart said:

The process I followed involved withdrawal symptoms including weakness, dizziness, shaking, tiredness, vision disturbances, nausea, suicidal ideation and a bunch of other unpleasant stuff.

 

Do you recall when these symptoms started? Currently, are they weaker in intensity?

 

I see you recently dropped Risperdal altogether. Did any symptoms get worse after that?

 

If you're still having these symptoms, if I were you, I'd stop reducing any drugs for the time being, let your nervous system settle down.

 

On 1/9/2019 at 2:16 AM, Lionheart said:

I turned to the Internet and found someone who had tried, and had good results, with a drug whose name I cannot recall now but which wasn’t a psych drug but rather intended for something related to complications in pregnancy. (The Prozac Bridge method didn’t come up in any of the reading I did. I suspect that at that time it wasn’t yet known.)

 

If you could identify this drug, that would be very helpful. Was it mifepristone, by any chance? (It is now widely available as RU486 to end pregnancies, but at one time was being investigated for antidepressant properties.)

 

The Prozac Bridge has been known for many years.

 

[Carmie]

Hi lionheart, 

 

Wanted to welcome you to SA as well. I’m so sorry you were put on such a cocktail of drugs. Please answer Alto’s questions. Thank you.

 

We will win this fight one day. Our brains are amazing in the way that they can recover. It’s a very slow process, with lots of windows and waves, but we will all get there in the end. We just have to taper slowly, I can taper no more than 5% or so a month, sometimes I have to hold longer. It’s important not to taper according to a calendar, but according to how our bodies feel.

 

It’s very important never to taper until we are stable. That doesn’t mean we won’t have any withdrawal symptoms. It just means that they are mild and pretty much stay the same every day without major fluctuations.

 

Take care, sending hugs🤗

 

 

 

[Lionheart]

Interactions between your drugs

 

Major

PARoxetine  mirtazapine

Applies to: paroxetine, mirtazapine

Using PARoxetine together with mirtazapine can increase the risk of a rare but serious condition called the serotonin syndrome, which may include symptoms such as confusion, hallucination, seizure, extreme changes in blood pressure, increased heart rate, fever, excessive sweating, shivering or shaking, blurred vision, muscle spasm or stiffness, tremor, incoordination, stomach cramp, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Severe cases may result in coma and even death. You should seek immediate medical attention if you experience these symptoms while taking the medications. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. Your doctor may already be aware of the risks, but has determined that this is the best course of treatment for you and has taken appropriate precautions and is monitoring you closely for any potential complications. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitaminsand herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

Moderate

methylphenidate  PARoxetine

Applies to: methylphenidate, paroxetine

Methylphenidate may increase the blood levels and effects of PARoxetine. You may be more likely to experience side effects, including a rare but serious condition called the serotonin syndrome, which may include symptoms such as confusion, hallucination, seizure, extreme changes in blood pressure, increased heart rate, fever, excessive sweating, shivering or shaking, blurred vision, muscle spasm or stiffness, tremor, incoordination, stomach cramp, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Contact your doctor if you experience increased side effects or your condition changes during treatment with these medications. You may need a dose adjustment or more frequent monitoring by your doctor to safely use both medications. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

Moderate

PARoxetine  risperiDONE

Applies to: paroxetine, risperidone

Before taking PARoxetine, tell your doctor if you also use risperiDONE. This combination may increase the effects of risperiDONE. This can cause development of extrapyramidal symptoms resulting in tremor, shuffling of your feet, drooling, a mask-like face, tongue stiffness, muscle spasms or rigidity, and involuntary movements. If you take both medications together, tell your doctor if you have any of these symptoms. You may need a dose adjustment if you take both medications. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

Moderate

PARoxetine  gabapentin

Applies to: paroxetine, gabapentin

Using PARoxetine together with gabapentin may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications. Also avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

Moderate

risperiDONE  gabapentin

Applies to: risperidone, gabapentin

Using risperiDONE together with gabapentin may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications. Also avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

Moderate

risperiDONE  mirtazapine

Applies to: risperidone, mirtazapine

Using risperiDONE together with mirtazapine may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications. Also avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

Moderate

gabapentin  mirtazapine

Applies to: gabapentin, mirtazapine

Using gabapentin together with mirtazapine may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications. Also avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

No other interactions were found between your selected drugs.

Note: this does not necessarily mean no interactions exist. Always consult with your doctor or pharmacist.

Drug and food interactions

Moderate

methylphenidate  food

Applies to: methylphenidate

Do not use alcohol or medications that contain alcohol while you are receiving treatment with methylphenidate. This may increase nervous system side effects such as drowsiness, anxiety, depression, and seizures. In addition, with certain long-acting forms of methylphenidate, alcohol can cause too much of the drug to be released at one time. High blood levels of the drug may increase the risk of side effects. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist if you have questions on how to take this or other medications you are prescribed. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

Moderate

PARoxetine  food

Applies to: paroxetine

Alcohol can increase the nervous system side effects of PARoxetine such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating. Some people may also experience impairment in thinking and judgment. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with PARoxetine. Do not use more than the recommended dose of PARoxetine, and avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medication affects you. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist if you have any questions or concerns.

 

Moderate

risperiDONE  food

Applies to: risperidone

RisperiDONE oral solution should not be mixed with tea or cola. It may be taken with water, coffee, orange juice, or low-fat milk. You should avoid the use of alcohol while being treated with risperiDONE. Alcohol can increase the nervous system side effects of risperiDONE such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating. Some people may also experience impairment in thinking and judgment. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist if you have any questions or concerns.

 

Moderate

gabapentin  food

Applies to: gabapentin

Alcohol can increase the nervous system side effects of gabapentin such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating. Some people may also experience impairment in thinking and judgment. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with gabapentin. Do not use more than the recommended dose of gabapentin, and avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medication affects you. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist if you have any questions or concerns.

 

Moderate

mirtazapine  food

Applies to: mirtazapine

Alcohol can increase the nervous system side effects of mirtazapine such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating. Some people may also experience impairment in thinking and judgment. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with mirtazapine. Do not use more than the recommended dose of mirtazapine, and avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medication affects you. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist if you have any questions or concerns.

Therapeutic duplication warnings

Therapeutic duplication is the use of more than one medicine from the same drug category or therapeutic class to treat the same condition. This can be intentional in cases where drugs with similar actions are used together for demonstrated therapeutic benefit. It can also be unintentional in cases where a patient has been treated by more than one doctor, or had prescriptions filled at more than one pharmacy, and can have potentially adverse consequences.

 

Duplication

Central Nervous System (CNS) Drugs

Therapeutic duplication

The recommended maximum number of medicines in the 'Central Nervous System (CNS) Drugs' category to be taken concurrently is usually three. Your list includes five medicines belonging to the 'Central Nervous System (CNS) Drugs' category:

• paroxetine

• risperidone

• gabapentin

• mirtazapine

• methylphenidate

Note: The benefits of taking this combination of medicines may outweigh any risks associated with therapeutic duplication. This information does not take the place of talking to your doctor. Always check with your healthcare provider to determine if any adjustments to your medications are needed.

 

Duplication

Antidepressants

Therapeutic duplication

The recommended maximum number of medicines in the 'antidepressants' category to be taken concurrently is usually one. Your list includes two medicines belonging to the 'antidepressants' category:

• paroxetine

• mirtazapine

Note: The benefits of taking this combination of medicines may outweigh any risks associated with therapeutic duplication. This information does not take the place of talking to your doctor. Always check with your healthcare provider to determine if any adjustments to your medications are needed.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by ChessieCat
reformatted for easier reading

[Lionheart]

On 1/11/2019 at 1:22 AM, Carmie said:

Wanted to welcome you to SA as well. I’m so sorry you were put on such a cocktail of drugs. Please answer Alto’s questions. Thank you.

 

We will win this fight one day. Our brains are amazing in the way that they can recover. It’s a very slow process, with lots of windows and waves, but we will all get there in the end. We just have to taper slowly, I can taper no more than 5% or so a month, sometimes I have to hold longer. It’s important not to taper according to a calendar, but according to how our bodies feel.

 

It’s very important never to taper until we are stable. That doesn’t mean we won’t have any withdrawal symptoms. It just means that they are mild and pretty much stay the same every day without major fluctuations.

 

Take care, sending hugs🤗

 

 

 

Hi Carmie,

 

Thanks very much for your message.

 

I'm working on replying to Alto's questions.

 

I've just posted the drug interaction report she asked for and I'm amazed at all the potential problems that exist between the cocktail that I'm on.

 

It's alarming that multiple doctors have known what I was on and not one of them has so much as cautioned me to the possible interactions.

 

Lionheart

[Lionheart]

On 1/11/2019 at 1:00 AM, Altostrata said:

When did you start each of these drugs?

Why was Remeron added?

How is your sleep?

What times of day do you take each drug?

 

The Aropax (paroxetine) and Neurontin (gabapentin) were started a few years ago, unfortunately I don't have a record of when it was.

 

In January 2017 I managed to get my psychologist and psychiatrist to talk to each other about my case. I had been seeing both of them for many years prior but the two of them had never discussed my case with each other.

 

In what seemed like a lightbulb moment they came up with a diagnosis of high functioning autism. Not as being the cause of all my problems but in addition to them and as a plausible explanation for many of my quirks.

 

For what it's worth, I then embarked on a major research tear and concluded that the diagnosis fit very well.

 

In any event, it was that diagnosis that led to the addition of risperidone and mirtazapine to my cocktail from January 2017.

 

My most significant problem at the time was crippling anxiety and the two new drugs seemed to help with that, at least for a few months.

 

Around the middle of 2017 my psychologist suggested I try Ritalin as a means to help me get things done. I was so numb and so devoid of any motivation and ability to think that the figured Ritalin might help.

 

I take the Ritalin on an as needed basis and so there are days when I don't take any at all.

 

By the beginning of 2018 the anxiety had returned with a vengeance.

A friend urged me to try a new psychiatrist who, my friend firmly believed, had a different approach to things and who had a really good understanding of the various psych meds.

 

Eventually, in April 2018, I went and saw the new psychiatrist and, in summary, his solution was that very often people need a much higher dose of medication that what the manufacturers recommend and that it would be good to increase the dose of my meds, one at a time, to find the point at which my system couldn't cope with any more and then to back off a tiny bit from that point.

 

That led to the doubling of the dose of mirtazapine and the tripling of the dose of gabapentin.

 

To my great relief this did indeed reduce my anxiety level by a useful amount but I have no doubt that it has had a negative effect in ways that I may yet have to discover.

 

You asked about my sleep: I don't usually have any problem sleeping. I'm very much a nightowl though and tend to go to sleep after midninght and wake up around nine or ten in the morning.

 

As to when I take the drugs:

Mornings:
Risperidone - now stopped

Paroxetine

Ritalin

 

Evenings:

Mirtazapine

 

Every 4 hours, around the clock, 300mg Neurontin (gabapentin).

 

 

 

On 1/11/2019 at 1:00 AM, Altostrata said:

Do you recall when these symptoms started? Currently, are they weaker in intensity?

 

I see you recently dropped Risperdal altogether. Did any symptoms get worse after that?

 

If you're still having these symptoms, if I were you, I'd stop reducing any drugs for the time being, let your nervous system settle down.

 

The symptoms I experienced after the last dose of risperidone started a few days after the last dose and remained fairly constant for about two weeks, fading in the third week.

I am now back, in terms of symptoms, where I was before weaning off risperidone. That is to say that I feel no better or worse for having stopped taking risperidone.

 

I will certainly wait a while before making any other changes.

 

 

Lionheart

[Lionheart]

On 1/11/2019 at 1:00 AM, Altostrata said:

If you could identify this drug, that would be very helpful. Was it mifepristone, by any chance? (It is now widely available as RU486 to end pregnancies, but at one time was being investigated for antidepressant properties.)

 

The Prozac Bridge has been known for many years.

 

 

I'll try and find out what that drug was and post here if I'm able to.

 

The Prozac bridge method is well known now but, around 12 years ago when I came off Effexor, it didn't come up in searches I was doing on the net. My doctor also hadn't heard of it yet at that stage. I would have been saved the most revolting few weeks if someone had told me about it.

 

Lionheart

[ChessieCat]

6 hours ago, Lionheart said:

I've just posted the drug interaction report she asked for and I'm amazed at all the potential problems that exist between the cocktail that I'm on.

 

It's alarming that multiple doctors have known what I was on and not one of them has so much as cautioned me to the possible interactions.

 

You are not the only member that has experienced this.  And we have actually seen worse, I think one had 4 major interactions and multiple duplications.  There is a lady at my work who is on at least two psychiatric drugs, which included 200mg Pristiq.  From what she told me and her demeanor I could tell she had serotonin toxicity.

 

My doctor didn't make the connect between the increase from 50mg to 100mg Pristiq causing my increased diastolic blood pressure, which turned out to be caused by mild serotonin toxicity.  All he did was increase my blood pressure medication.  And when I saw him for a new script for the BP med and told him that I had reduced my dose by half, he didn't even check my blood pressure, just issued the script.  He didn't even ask if I had been checking it myself.  And this is a family doctor who I have been seeing for 35 years.

[Altostrata]

8 hours ago, Lionheart said:

Eventually, in April 2018, I went and saw the new psychiatrist and, in summary, his solution was that very often people need a much higher dose of medication that what the manufacturers recommend and that it would be good to increase the dose of my meds, one at a time, to find the point at which my system couldn't cope with any more and then to back off a tiny bit from that point.

 

How is this psychiatrist monitoring whether you're overdrugged?

 

A much safer way to find lowest effective dosage is to very gradually increase the dose and monitor for a while to see the effect of the change. It's highly likely you'd have gotten more out of less.

 

When was the last time you got your blood pressure checked?

 

On 1/9/2019 at 2:16 AM, Lionheart said:

The process I followed involved withdrawal symptoms including weakness, dizziness, shaking, tiredness, vision disturbances, nausea, suicidal ideation and a bunch of other unpleasant stuff.

 

Which of these has resolved? What is your most troublesome symptom currently?

[Lionheart]

14 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

You are not the only member that has experienced this.  And we have actually seen worse, I think one had 4 major interactions and multiple duplications.

It's taken me a long time to realise that doctors are no different to other professionals in the sense that they are humans before all else and they have (many) failings.

 

We tend to assume that because we don't understand medicine any doctor we consult does.

 

When we consult a so-called expert in a field where we ourselves have some knowledge we quickly pick up on how little the expert knows and we notice some of the BS that they put forward as expert knowledge/advice.

 

With doctors, because we typically have no knowledge, we don't notice when we're being given bad advice.

 

And, just because someone is a doctor, they are not immune to the general human propensity for ignorance, innocent error, negligent error or even deliberate BS.

 

It's only thanks to the Internet, and forums like this one, and the huge increase in communication and the comparing of notes that we all do through these means that we're discovering, at an alarming rate, what a load of garbage we've been fed.

 

Lionheart

[Lionheart]

12 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How is this psychiatrist monitoring whether you're overdrugged?

 

A much safer way to find lowest effective dosage is to very gradually increase the dose and monitor for a while to see the effect of the change. It's highly likely you'd have gotten more out of less.

 

When was the last time you got your blood pressure checked?

 

No monitoring is being done at all. I was given a script and sent on my way. My understanding was that if the higher dose made me feel ill in some way then I should back off a bit.

 

Your method for finding the lowest effective dose certainly sounds far better.

 

I had my blood pressure checked several weeks ago and it was regarded as being okay for my age.

 

 

12 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

On 1/9/2019 at 12:16 PM, Lionheart said:

The process I followed involved withdrawal symptoms including weakness, dizziness, shaking, tiredness, vision disturbances, nausea, suicidal ideation and a bunch of other unpleasant stuff.

 

Which of these has resolved? What is your most troublesome symptom currently?

 

Most of those are symptoms that I have to varying degrees on an ongoing basis. For the first two weeks after stopping risperidone those symptoms ramped up and were pretty intense and they gradually all returned to "normal" levels during the third week after stopping risperidone.

 

They are by no means completely gone though. I am, in general, not in great health most of the time, finding that I a struggle to get anything meaningful done most days. 

 

At the moment I am suffering high anxiety levels, weakness, shakiness and a general sense of doom. Not fun.

 

I own a small business and, over the last seven years, since my divorce, that business has suffered hugely by my not being able to work effectively.

 

Lionheart

[ChessieCat]

Gwen Olsen was a pharmaceutical representative for 15 years.  There a big $$$ behind what's going on with prescribing.

 

Manipulating Doctors (10 minutes)

 

We are trained to misinform (6 minutes)

 

Interview:  Confessions of an Rx Drug Pusher (51 minutes )

[Lionheart]

30 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Gwen Olsen was a pharmaceutical representative for 15 years.  There a big $$$ behind what's going on with prescribing.

 

Manipulating Doctors (10 minutes)

 

We are trained to misinform (6 minutes)

 

Interview:  Confessions of an Rx Drug Pusher (51 minutes )

 

Hi ChessieCat,

 

Thank you so much for those links. Very interesting viewing, and useful too for showing to family who don't understand what I'm doing or why.

 

Lionheart

[ChessieCat]

Kirsch et al got clinical trial results through freedom of information.  Video:  Irving Kirsch:  Emperor's New Drugs:  Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect (1 hour 20 minutes)

 

Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect by Irving Kirsch (link to full article)

Abstract:

Antidepressants are supposed to work by fixing a chemical imbalance, specifically, a lack of serotonin in the brain.  Indeed, their supposed effectiveness is the primary evidence for the chemical imbalance theory.  But analyses of the published data and the unpublished data that were hidden by drug companies reveals that most (if not all) of the benefits are due to the placebo effect.  Some antidepressants increase serotonin levels, some decrease it, and some have no effect at all on serotonin.  Nevertheless, they all show the same therapeutic benefit.  Even the small statistical difference between antidepressants and placebos may be an enhanced placebo effect, due to the fact that most patients and doctors in clinical trials successfully break blind.  The serotonin theory is as close as any theory in the history of science to having been proved wrong.  Instead of curing depression, popular antidepressants may induce a biological vulnerability making people more likely to become depressed in the future.

Excerpt:

How Did These Drugs Get Approved?
....
The FDA requires two adequately conducted clinical trials showing a significant difference between drug and placebo.  But there is a loophole:  there is no limit to the number of trials that can be conducted in search of these two significant trials.  Trials showing negative results simply do not count.  Furthermore, the clinical significance of the findings is not considered.  All that matters is that the results are statistically significant.
....
(NB:  emphasis in abstract and excerpt are mine)

[Altostrata]

Hi, Lionheart.

 

I need to see your daily drug schedule and symptom pattern. Please keep daily notes on paper with times of day for when you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms. You can post them in this topic with a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

[ChessieCat]

Example:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

[Carmie]

On 1/13/2019 at 11:03 PM, Lionheart said:

Hi Carmie,

 

Thanks very much for your message.

 

I'm working on replying to Alto's questions.

 

I've just posted the drug interaction report she asked for and I'm amazed at all the potential problems that exist between the cocktail that I'm on.

 

It's alarming that multiple doctors have known what I was on and not one of them has so much as cautioned me to the possible interactions.

 

Lionheart

 

Hi Lionheart, 

 

Yes, it’s certainly alarming what the doctors put us through. I have been put on and off so many meds, been cold turkeyed etc. I’m been through such torture. They hand out medication like lollies, but most of them have no clue about withdrawals and the pain they put us through. They just think we have something mentally wrong with us when in fact we are going through withdrawals. My ordeal started because of chronic pain. 

 

Please put in your daily drug and symptom schedule. Thank you. 

 

Wishing you all all the best in your tapering and recovery. We will get there one day, Sending hugs🤗

[Lionheart]

14 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Hi, Lionheart.

 

I need to see your daily drug schedule and symptom pattern. Please keep daily notes on paper with times of day for when you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms. You can post them in this topic with a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

 

14 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Example:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

Okay, I'll do my best to gather that info and record it.

 

Lionheart

 

[Lionheart]

Meds 'n moods

 

 

January 15

 

08h05 - Woke up - took 300mg gabapentin - anxiety level very high today - sense of doom - weak, shaky

09h30 - Took 25mg paroxetine, 20mg Ritalin - no change in anxiety level - sense of doom - weak, shaky

12h10 - Took 300mg gabapentin - no change in anxiety level - sense of doom - weak, shaky

 

 

[JackieDecides]

On 1/13/2019 at 5:03 AM, Lionheart said:

It's alarming that multiple doctors have known what I was on and not one of them has so much as cautioned me to the possible interactions.

 

I hear you, Lionheart, they really don't even think about it when they put us on more pills and then more pills.🤨

 

welcome, I'm glad you found your way to SA. 

[Lionheart]

Meds 'n moods

 

 

January 15

 

08h05 - Woke up - took 300mg gabapentin - anxiety level very high today - sense of doom - weak, shaky

09h30 - Took 25mg paroxetine, 20mg Ritalin - no change in anxiety level - sense of doom - weak, shaky

12h10 - Took 300mg gabapentin - no change in anxiety level - sense of doom - weak, shaky

16h10 - Took 300mg gabapentin - anxiety level has mercifully dropped somewhat - weak, shaky

22h00 - Took 300mg gabapentin - anxiety level still at a lower level - weak, shaky

20h45 - Ate dinner - very little appetite - anxiety still at a lower level - weak, shaky

22h15 - Went to bed earlier than usual - very tired and relieved to be going to bed

 

 

January 16

 

00h01 - Woken by reminder on my phone - took 300mg gabapentin - fell asleep again right away

04h00 - Woken by reminder on my phone - took 300mg gabapentin - fell asleep again right away

08h00 - Woken by reminder on my phone - took 300mg gabapentin - in and out of light sleep for next 2 hours

10h10 - Woke up, got up - feeling quite anxious - feeling tired

 

 

[Lionheart]

On 1/15/2019 at 3:24 PM, JackieDecides said:

 

I hear you, Lionheart, they really don't even think about it when they put us on more pills and then more pills.🤨

 

welcome, I'm glad you found your way to SA. 

 

Thank you!

 

Lionheart

[Lionheart]

Meds 'n moods

 

 

January 15

 

08h05 - Woke up - took 300mg gabapentin - anxiety level very high today - sense of doom - weak, shaky

09h30 - Took 25mg paroxetine, 20mg Ritalin - no change in anxiety level - sense of doom - weak, shaky

12h10 - Took 300mg gabapentin - no change in anxiety level - sense of doom - weak, shaky

16h10 - Took 300mg gabapentin - anxiety level has mercifully dropped somewhat - weak, shaky

22h00 - Took 300mg gabapentin - anxiety level still at a lower level - weak, shaky

20h45 - Ate dinner - very little appetite - anxiety still at a lower level - weak, shaky

22h15 - Went to bed earlier than usual - very tired and relieved to be going to bed - forgot to take 15mg mirtazapine

 

 

January 16

 

00h01 - Woken by reminder on my phone - took 300mg gabapentin - fell asleep again right away

04h00 - Woken by reminder on my phone - took 300mg gabapentin - fell asleep again right away

08h00 - Woken by reminder on my phone - took 300mg gabapentin - in and out of light sleep for next 2 hours

10h10 - Woke up, got up - feeling quite anxious - feeling tired - took 25mg paroxetine, 20mg Ritalin

10h30 - The usual weakness and shakiness set in

12h00 - Took 300mg gabapentin - very shaky and quite anxious - need to go and see a client so took 15mg oxazepam to calm myself

12h20 - Left home to go and see client - feeling a bit calmer

13h00 to 16h30 - Worked at client's premises - felt weak but otherwise managed to do what I had to do by taking it very slowly

16h00 - Took 300mg gabapentin

17h30 - Got home and flopped into my chair to rest for a while

20h00 - Took 300mg gabapentin - feeling weak and shaky - mild anxiety

22h30 - Went to bed - forgot to take night time dose of 15mg mirtazapine

 

 

January 17

 

00h00 - Woken by reminder on my phone - took 300mg gabapentin - fell asleep again right away

04h00 - Woken by reminder on my phone - took 300mg gabapentin - fell asleep again right away

08h00 - Woken by reminder on my phone - took 300mg gabapentin - went back to sleep

09h30 - Got up - weak and shaky

12h00 - Took 300mg gabapentin, 25mg paroxetine, 10mg Ritalin - feeling very shaky

 

[Lionheart]

Moods 'n Meds a different way

 

Rather than copying and pasting my moods and meds into a new message every time I need to add something I have created an easier to read chart here.

 

Lionheart

[Altostrata]

Hi, Lionheart. I can see your spreadsheet, thanks.

 

What I need to know is how you feel before you take a drug and how you feel afterward. As it can take hours for a drug to reach peak plasma, I need to know any significant symptoms in the hours after a dose. What I'm trying to see is the effect of a particular drug.

 

In your notes, it's not clear if the symptoms emerged before or after you take a dose.

 

My hunch is that gabapentin is causing many of your symptoms.

[Lionheart]

14 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

What I need to know is how you feel before you take a drug and how you feel afterward. As it can take hours for a drug to reach peak plasma, I need to know any significant symptoms in the hours after a dose. What I'm trying to see is the effect of a particular drug.

 

Hi Altostrata,

 

There is no change to how I feel after taking a dose of any of my regular meds.

 

If I miss two or more doses of gabapentin then my anxiety increases dramatically. That's the reason I take it through the night. If I don't then when I wake up in the morning I feel horrible anxiety.

 

It was the drastic increase in the dose of gabapentin back in April last year that very suddenly reduced my anxiety level. On the same day that I increased the dose from 600mg to 1800mg I was able to detect a reduction in anxiety.

 

The anxiety is almost never totally gone but it's mostly bearable, with occasional spikes, especially if there is something worrying me, like finances, for example.

 

I will sometimes take a benzo (oxazepam) when the anxiety is at a very high level and that's the only med that has a noticeable effect soon after taking it. None of my other meds make a difference in how I'm feeling after taking them.

 

Lionheart

[Lionheart]

Shakiness

 

In my journal of moods and meds I refer to feeling shaky.

 

This can sometimes be very powerful, to the extent that I cannot hold a glass of water or use a mouse or keyboard.

 

Usually it's not quite that intense but often people will ask me if I'm okay because they see my hands shaking.

 

Even when I'm able to hide it by keeping my hands in my pockets or folding my arms I can still feel my whole body shaking internally.

 

I came across the term akathisia on this site - I hadn't heard it before - and when I read the list of twelve or so symptoms I realise that I have ten of them.

 

I don't know if my shakiness would fall under akathisia but it seems that it could.

 

Lionheart

[Carmie]

Hi Lionheart, 

 

How have you been doing?💚

[BfromNJ]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 1:43 PM, ChessieCat said:

Gwen Olsen was a pharmaceutical representative for 15 years.  There a big $$$ behind what's going on with prescribing.

 

Manipulating Doctors (10 minutes)

 

We are trained to misinform (6 minutes)

 

Interview:  Confessions of an Rx Drug Pusher (51 minutes )

I have to watch these when I have a chance.   I am posting this so I remember.  lol. 

[BfromNJ]

Hi Lionheart.  hope you are doing okay?  I see we are on a similar medication, Neurontin?  were you prescribed this for anxiety?  I am tapering first the AD, luvox.  How is your taper going? 

[Lionheart]

On 4/3/2019 at 8:57 AM, Carmie said:

Hi Lionheart, 

 

How have you been doing?💚

Hi Carmie,

I've been having a horrible time, I'm afraid. Anxiety mainly, and depression to a lesser extent, have been making life really miserable and making it almost impossible to work and earn a living.

 

I wish I had found a solution but, so far, no luck with that.

 

I paused the tapering my my meds about a month ago to see if there was going to be any backlash from tapering off risperidone, which I completed, I think, early in January.

Next on my list is mirtazepine, which I should start tapering soon but have been reluctant to start doing because I simply can't afford to do anything that will make me feel any worse at this stage.

 

 

 

[Lionheart]

8 hours ago, BfromNJ said:

Hi Lionheart.  hope you are doing okay?  I see we are on a similar medication, Neurontin?  were you prescribed this for anxiety?  I am tapering first the AD, luvox.  How is your taper going? 

Hi B,

 

I'm battling but I'm still here. (See above message)

 

Yes, the Neurontin was prescribed as part of a cocktail of meds in an attempt to deal with anxiety.

 

Initially I was on 200mg three times a day.

 

About a year ago I saw a new pdoc who suggested increasing the dose dramatically to 300mg six times a day (300mg every four hours, around the clock) and, I have to say, when I did that I did experience a noticeable reduction in my level of anxiety.

 

However, over the last six months or so my anxiety level has gradually increased. It still isn't as bad as I know it can get but it's still no fun.

 

I still dream of eventually being off all meds and being happy and healthy. That may not be possible but I aim to get as close as I can.

 

 

 

[Carmie]

On 4/9/2019 at 7:16 AM, Lionheart said:

Hi Carmie,

I've been having a horrible time, I'm afraid. Anxiety mainly, and depression to a lesser extent, have been making life really miserable and making it almost impossible to work and earn a living.

 

I wish I had found a solution but, so far, no luck with that.

 

I paused the tapering my my meds about a month ago to see if there was going to be any backlash from tapering off risperidone, which I completed, I think, early in January.

Next on my list is mirtazepine, which I should start tapering soon but have been reluctant to start doing because I simply can't afford to do anything that will make me feel any worse at this stage.

 

 

 

 

Hi Lionheart, 

 

I’m sorry you’re still having symptoms. You said you had akathisia so bad that your hands were shaking in January. Has that settled now?

 

I wouldn’t taper as yet if you’re still going through severe symptoms. How are your symptoms now compared to when you first came off the risperidone? It can take the brain a while to stabilise when we are fully off a medication. Please don’t taper too soon.

 

Take care, sending hugs 🤗

 

[Lionheart]

On 4/10/2019 at 7:54 AM, Carmie said:

 

Hi Lionheart, 

 

I’m sorry you’re still having symptoms. You said you had akathisia so bad that your hands were shaking in January. Has that settled now?

 

I wouldn’t taper as yet if you’re still going through severe symptoms. How are your symptoms now compared to when you first came off the risperidone? It can take the brain a while to stabilise when we are fully off a medication. Please don’t taper too soon.

 

Take care, sending hugs 🤗

 

Hi Carmie,

 

No, unfortunately the shaking is still the same. It comes and goes though, it isn't present all day every day.

It's typically worst in the mornings.

 

I'm not sure that it's a withdrawal symptom from coming off risperidone though because I had it while I was still on risperidone.

 

Overall I would say that I'm much the same in general now that I'm off risperidone as I was when I was still on it.

 

I certainly don't think that I'm any worse than I was before.

 

I'm inclined to think that the meds that I'm still on are either causing me problems or just aren't helping to resolve whatever is causing them.

 

 

[BfromNJ]

On 4/8/2019 at 5:26 PM, Lionheart said:

Hi B,

 

I'm battling but I'm still here. (See above message)

 

Yes, the Neurontin was prescribed as part of a cocktail of meds in an attempt to deal with anxiety.

 

Initially I was on 200mg three times a day.

 

About a year ago I saw a new pdoc who suggested increasing the dose dramatically to 300mg six times a day (300mg every four hours, around the clock) and, I have to say, when I did that I did experience a noticeable reduction in my level of anxiety.

 

However, over the last six months or so my anxiety level has gradually increased. It still isn't as bad as I know it can get but it's still no fun.

 

I still dream of eventually being off all meds and being happy and healthy. That may not be possible but I aim to get as close as I can.

 

 

 

Wow that was quite an increase.   I do hear that it can pop out after a while.  That is my fear.  I don't want to increase as my goal as well is to be med free,  even though stupidly I just went on the three I am on in Feb.  Sigh.  Sorry to hear about the akathisia.  I hope it improves for you.  

[BfromNJ]

3 hours ago, BfromNJ said:

Wow that was quite an increase.   I do hear that it can pop out after a while.  That is my fear.  I don't want to increase as my goal as well is to be med free,  even though stupidly I just went on the three I am on in Feb.  Sigh.  Sorry to hear about the akathisia.  I hope it improves for you.  

what I meant to say was poop out, not pop out.  lol.