Goosie: insomnia crisis

[Carmie]

Hi Goosie, 

 

I like some of your self care techniques, spending time in water in so therapeutic. I love that you go on the swings, I’m a big kid at heart too. I have a soft toy dog called Puddles. I wish I had swings near by, I’d be on them too! I’m in my 50’s 😁

 

Wishing you all the best in your healing journey 💚

[Goosie]

Thank you @Carmie    Looks like a wave is returning. ☹️  The whole process is so hard.   I keep praying

[Dejavu]

Goosie, just wanted to drop by and say hi. I'm in the middle of a nasty wave right now, made worse by a steroid eye drop I must take for another 5 days. Although intellectually we all know this windows and waves pattern, there's always a little part of us that hopes against hope that each window will be the one that lasts for good. Sending you good thoughts and I hope that this wave is a short one for you!

[Goosie]

Thank you @Dejavu      I just read your thread.  Seems you had a pretty long window so I  sure you will get another window soon.  Sending love. 💕💕💕💕

[Jen1234]

Goosie how are you today 

[Goosie]

Hi @Jen1234  thanks so much for checking in.   I am actually pretty good today!   

 

When end I was at inpatient they put me on theanine and tryptophan at bed time along with a whole bunch of other stuff.    ( hydroxizine plus herbs like lavender hawthorn etc).  Since I am tapering hydroxizine I was keeping the other stuff constant.   But every night I would take my melatonin, get sleepy, take the rest of the junk, go to bed and be wide awake after 45 minutes.   

 

I always thoght it was it was the hydroxizine that was going paradoxical but the lowered dose of The hydroxizine wasn’t helping.  It was like i was very very calm but also unable to sleep.  The dine finally dropped that it might be the theanine because Theanine makes you calm    And also increases also ha waves ( i e makes you awake).  Anyways to make a long story short I halted my theanine dose and was able to fall asleep within an hour for the first time this month.   I don’t know if it’s coincidence or not but I am thrilled to have gotten some sleep.    

 

How are you doing?  How is the baby?

[Goosie]

That should say alpha waves

[Goosie]

And also halved my dose not halted.   

[Jen1234]

That’s such great news!! Were you then able to sleep through the night? It is very difficult finding the root but it seems like you’re making great progress. So happy for you. 

 

I’ve been up and down this week. The anxiety is worse than the sleepless nights. I’m just very scared about it all and not knowing which direction to go in. Whether to try another AD to help combat the anxiety or to just wait it out in hopes that my sleep will return. It’s hard not knowing if it will ever return because I don’t 100% know the cause of the insomnia, although most of me says it’s from coming off the amitriptyline. I’m finding it really difficult to make it through the days with the anxiety this is causing. Not sure how much longer I can handle it, and as tempting as it sounds to try an AD i’m Also scared out of my mind to. Feeling very stuck at the moment with no real great options to help.

[Altostrata]

1 hour ago, Goosie said:

Hi @Jen1234  thanks so much for checking in.   I am actually pretty good today!   

 

When end I was at inpatient they put me on theanine and tryptophan at bed time along with a whole bunch of other stuff.    ( hydroxizine plus herbs like lavender hawthorn etc).  Since I am tapering hydroxizine I was keeping the other stuff constant.   But every night I would take my melatonin, get sleepy, take the rest of the junk, go to bed and be wide awake after 45 minutes.   

 

I always thoght it was it was the hydroxizine that was going paradoxical but the lowered dose of The hydroxizine wasn’t helping.  It was like i was very very calm but also unable to sleep.  The dine finally dropped that it might be the theanine because Theanine makes you calm    And also increases also ha waves ( i e makes you awake).  Anyways to make a long story short I halted my theanine dose and was able to fall asleep within an hour for the first time this month.   I don’t know if it’s coincidence or not but I am thrilled to have gotten some sleep.    

 

How are you doing?  How is the baby?

 

Goosie, this is the first time you've mentioned you were also taking "theanine and tryptophan at bed time along with a whole bunch of other stuff."

 

Yes, taking "a whole bunch of other stuff" to sleep can also cause a paradoxical reaction. When we ask you questions about what you're taking, we need complete answers. The endless discussion of hydroxyzine was a big waste of time (though that might contribute to a paradoxical reaction). If we had known about the supplements, we'd have told to stop them first.

 

When did you drop "theanine and tryptophan at bed time along with a whole bunch of other stuff"? Exactly what are you taking now, at what dosages, and what times of day?

[Goosie]

Hi @Altostrata  sorry my brain doesn’t work too well and I don’t remember what I did or did not say.   I was at atmc for 4 months and they had me taking a lot of supplements.   

 

I have dropped most of them but I am still taking theanine tryptophan magnesium and a blend of herbs before bed.   I was under the impression that the hydroxizine was the most potent thing I was taking and hence was focusing on that.  

Note: I also take melatonin and replacement hormones. 

 

It it has taken me a long time to realize that supplements are drugs as well.    

 

I was taking these these supplements for 4 months at atmc and didn’t think it was a good idea to just stop taking things suddenly.   

 

When i came home I did slowly drop a lot of the supplements.   For example they had me on a whipping 550 mg of theanine at bed which I reduced to 250.   

 

I thought I had listed the supplements I was taking somewhere but honestly my brain doesn’t work well enough to really remember.  Also I really couldn’t care less about being right so I’m not even going to search my thread.  

 

On your recommendation I now take 1 magnesium of 120 mg a few hours before bed. And the second at bed time.     

 

I had multiple drs tell me reduce 1 thing at a time so I was focusing on the hydroxizine.  Honestly it never occurred to me that theanine might be a problem.   Sorry to be so stupid.   

 

Tryptophan I take 1 gram before bed.  Theanine I am now taking half a 200 pill plus the herb pill thT has 50 mg.  So that is 150.   

 

I am am very grateful for the tapering advice you gave me for hydroxizine.  Maybe I am still alive because of it.   

 

Sorry to have annoyed you.  I’m really doing the best I can.  

[Goosie]

@jen1234.  I don’t sleep through the night yet- I only get 4-5 hours but then I get some additional hours of half sleep which I am happy with.     Being able to fall asleep before 4 am is a big win for me.   Don’t know if it will last but at least today I am letting myself be happy and hopeful.  

 

 

I try try to hold on to the idea that our brains can heal.   I am sorry to hear about your anxiety.   I am certain you will heal- I am sure the hormonal changes after having a baby will settle.   

 

I find swimming to be helpful- especually the jumping into the cold water.   Also for what it’s worth I did find theanine to be calming so I don’t know if that could help you during the day or if it would just make things worse.  Maybe worth asking the mods on your thread.    

 

In in my experience taking drugs or supplements have only made things worse but it is so hard when you are desperate.   

 

Srnding love.  

[Goosie]

@Altostrata   Realized my last post was rambling.    

Let me try again: 

 

Stuff I take:  

Morning: fish oil and choline

Evening 120 mg magnesium

8 pm.   Hormones 

10 pm : 1.5 melatonin

11 pm. 12-15 hydroxyzine. 1 g tryptophan 150 theanine.   1 herb blend pill.   It has thinks like ca poppy.    120 magnesium 

 

 

There is another sleep tincture I have but I don’t tsje it every night and I don’t know what is in it.  

 

 

Thank you

[Goosie]

Also I’ve noticed I get nights with no sleep at all around my period and it takes like 10 days to regulate back into a 4-5 hour a night pattern.    

If I get to sleep before 4 I get some additional half sleep from 8-10 am.     

 

And one more thing- I have been yelled at a lot by drs in this process.  One yelled at me because I didn’t want to take Seconal, a barbiturate.   Another said i wasn’t getting better because I refused to updose  Seroquel.   Another told me I was obstinate because I didn’t want to updose to 10 mg melatonin.     I have also been told that phenibut is safe and natural and that my difficulty sleeping when getting off it was due to my original disease.    My sister told me I have a degenerative brain disease which will continue to worsen unless I medicare with ssris.   At atmc they told me the bucket full of supplements they gave me should help me sleep and if I still didn’t sleep it must be my disease.  All of this has been unpleasant though of course the symptoms are far worse than irate drs.   

 

This site is the only place I have found compassion as I try to sort through everything as best I can with my muddles brain.   

 

 

Thank you for that.  

[Carmie]

 

On 3/12/2019 at 4:00 AM, Goosie said:

Thank you @Carmie    Looks like a wave is returning. ☹️  The whole process is so hard.   I keep praying

 

Hi Goosie, 

 

I’m sorry your insomnia continues to worry you. Yes, you’re right in that taking a bunch of supplements can really affect you, especially when you’ve been on and off quite a few meds. My system is really sensitised, I tried magnesium once and it ramped up my symptoms, though it really helps a lot of people on here. I’m glad that you’re able to take it. I’m not sure if a different kind of magnesium would be okay for me, but I’m not going to bother with it at the moment. 

 

That’s not very appropriate that the doctors yelled at you, some of them really want to get their point across of meds, meds, and if they don’t work just up them.🙄

 

You don’t have a degenerative brain disease. The problem is your brain is trying to stabilise after all the meds you’ve been put on and off. As for the bucket full of supplements, that could actually be ramping up your symptoms. Time is the healer, I know it’s hard to come to terms with, but Seroquel is nortorious for causing rebound insomnia.

 

I’m tapering off Seroquel myself, I was put on 300mg and I’m now down to 7.5mg. Once years ago I didn’t take it one night I didn’t sleep whatsoever. I’m not sure how I’ll go once I get down to even smaller doses or I’m off it, I’ll probably end up with rebound insomnia too. Who knows? I don’t worry about things that far ahead. It’s amazing that doctors put people on Seroquel for sleep, it’s such a potent drug with severe side effects, that actually makes the insomnia worse once you’re off it. 

 

Take care, sending hugs🤗

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Carmie
Typo

[Goosie]

Thank you @Carmie for your response.   The suppprt of those on this site is a life line for me.

 

Reducing the theanine seems to be helpful.   I don’t feel as awake during the night but I also seem to wake more often.    In the past week or so I’ve been getting about 4 hours a night which is enough to keep me positive and keep the suicidal thoughts at bay so I am happy with that.   

 

If if you are currently stable than I think you are golden as you taper seroquel.   I was never stable on it.   Not even for 1 day!!!!!  

 

I seem to to get a wave as my period approaches.   ( this coming week) so I am praying it doesn’t come as bad this month.   

 

Thamk you again gain for your encouraging words.  

[Carmie]

Hi Goosie, 

 

Yes, I totally agree, the support on here is great. If you haven’t gone through withdrawals yourself there is no way you can even relate to how severe they are. 

 

I’m glad the four hours sleep is keeping you positive. You have a good attitude.

 

Hormones can bring on waves for some people. I hope they’re not too bad for you this time. I’m in my 50’s, way past my period. I don’t have to worry about that anymore.

 

Take care💚

[Altostrata]

It's probably the hydoxyzine reduction, not the theanine reduction, that caused the improvement. Hydroxyzine has a fairly long half-life.

 

I feel pretty exhausted having discussed hydoxyzine reduction over and over and utterly frustrated seeing you're still taking it, Goosie, not to mention something like tryptophan WITH melatonin. So I hope you'll understand if I don't personally answer your questions any more.

[Goosie]

@Altostrata    I’m not sure why you are frustrated with me.  I am following your direction and reducing the hydroxizine as fast as I feel able.  I am down to half the original dose.  I have been home from inpatient less that two months and I have had to re-adjust to being home, as well as try to taper off of a LOT of supplements that they gave me at inpatient.  

All the advice , even on this site is to taper one thing at a time.   Every time I am not screaming in desperation I reduce the hydroxizine.  A small mistake could cost me my life. 

 

 

Also I am taking melatonin and tryptophan because a dr put me on that.    You have not offered me any advice on what I should be doing instead.    Or how I can taper off.    I tried once to stop the tryptophan but I didn’t sleep at all.   I tapered the melatonin  a bit, but on those few days I had to stop the hydroxizine taper.  It is clear you don’t want to help me.  You’ve already called me an arm chair scientist for trying to understand the science behind your logic and said multiple times you are wasting your time with me. You got angry that I mistakenly didn’t list my supplements , but when I do you don’t offer any advice on then, you just berate me for taking them.     I’m sorry you feel frustrated.   But don’t blame the victim.   Your mean comments are hurtful and just the latest in a  long line of people who claim to care Doing just the opposite.  

[eymen23]

@Goosie

 

I’m sure Alto can speak for herself and she may respond when she is available, but please try to understand that this is a site with a large number of active members, with many experiencing difficult symptoms as a result of psychiatric drugs. 

 

It’s very difficult for good advice to be provided without understanding all of the facts. Alto has tried to help you with the hydroxizine, whilst under the impression that she had the full picture of your supplement and drug intake. To suddenly find out that you are taking a number of other supplements, all of which can be causing their own adverse reactions, is frustrating. 

 

We are never frustrated with members for taking supplements or drugs, but it is frustrating when significant pieces of the puzzle aren’t disclosed, and tailored assistance is being provided, based on incomplete information.

 

Imagine me going to the doctors and complaining about pain in my foot. We try different pain killers, more comfortable shoes, and still I am complaining about the pain. Then one day the doctor takes off my shoes and socks to find I had a nail in my foot the whole time, and I’d never mentioned it. How do you think they would react? 

 

I hope this makes sense Goosie. We do care about members here, of course we do. But there are only so many hours in the day and many members to assist. The last thing any moderator or administrator wants to feel is that our time has been wasted. 

[Goosie]

@eymen23  thank u for your post.  I definitely understand that it is frustrating to be missing information.   I apologize for not listing my supplements- I thought I had and I have extremely poor cognitive abilities so I can’t renember what I told to whom.  I see several drs and must have given the information to them and got confused.    

 

I am upset at being berated for taking melatonin and tryptophan together when I was put on this at an in patient facility where I had no control over what I was taking.  I would love to know how to get off this - and if I should I should try to taper before or after finishing hydroxizine.   I am also quite upset at being berated for going “ too slow” on my hydroxizine taper. The only time I hold steady is when I have been extremely suicidal ALL day.  I had the worst wave ever this month that lasted a full two weeks where I was literally inches away from suicide.  This occurred after after my first hydroxizine reduction around my period.  I find it  very hurtful that alto chastises me for not going faster when this was the situation.   I understand her position that I should go faster but I am just not able to do so.   Being able to half my dose is a big accomplishment for me and something that I would like to celebrate.   

I while I understand that the mods are busy it would take the same amount of time to write something positive as it it does to write something negative.  If you are too busy to write something helpful then please don’t write it at all.   

 

There is a small thread keeping me alive and this site is literally ALL I have.    I cried all morning after reading her post.  I understand that a normal person would not cry over an internet comment but if I were a normal person I would not need to be on this site.

the arm chair scientist comment was also especially hurtful because I used to be a scientist and this is the kind of put down I would get at work which started this whole mess.   

 

It it seems that every time I try to think for myself and question care providers get angry with me.    It makes me feel like I’m a pain in the a$$ and would be better off dead.   

 

Im sorry I’m just really upset.   Maybe I’ll not come to this site again. 

 

Peace and thank Thank you for trying to help.  

[Altostrata]

If you want to design your own drug cocktail, you don't need my advice. Sorry, I'm all tapped out.

[Goosie]

Hello all.  After almost three months of being ok, I have fallen into a bad wave.  I have been trying to taper the supplrments I take for insomnia.   I managed to get down to 1 mg melatonin half a pill of tryptophan (250mg) 4-6 mg hydroxizine and 75% of 1 herbal blend pill.  ( it has valerian hops passionflower and lemon balm).    (Fully off the theanine and the magnesium glycinate). I do still take magnesium citrate.  After dropping to 50% of the herbal blend pill at the beginning of the week my sleep gradually deteriorated to nothing.   Has anyone tried to taper off a herbal blend before and had horrible symptoms as a result?  

 

I apologize for not being able to taper any faster- and for not yet having fully eliminated the hydroxizine as recommendrd.  I was hoping to work on getting rid of hydroxizine after this herbal blend cut but it looks like I will have to hold for a long time to stabilize.    

Thank you.   

[ChessieCat]

Because you have been reducing various things, it is impossible to know what is causing any issues.  Recently I was getting over a mild cold, did a day of yard work and I had run out of magnesium so hadn't taken any for about 7 to 10 days.  Because there were 3 different things occurring/not occurring at the same time I was not able to pinpoint whether any, 2 or all 3 of these these were causing my symptoms to ramp up.

 

SA recommends only making one change at a time exactly for this reason because if changing one thing causes a problem then you are in a better position to know the cause.  Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

[Songbird]

8 hours ago, Goosie said:

Hello all.  After almost three months of being ok, I have fallen into a bad wave.  I have been trying to taper the supplrments I take for insomnia.   I managed to get down to 1 mg melatonin half a pill of tryptophan (250mg) 4-6 mg hydroxizine and 75% of 1 herbal blend pill.  ( it has valerian hops passionflower and lemon balm).    (Fully off the theanine and the magnesium glycinate). I do still take magnesium citrate.  After dropping to 50% of the herbal blend pill at the beginning of the week my sleep gradually deteriorated to nothing.   Has anyone tried to taper off a herbal blend before and had horrible symptoms as a result?  

 

I apologize for not being able to taper any faster- and for not yet having fully eliminated the hydroxizine as recommendrd.  I was hoping to work on getting rid of hydroxizine after this herbal blend cut but it looks like I will have to hold for a long time to stabilize.    

Thank you.   

 

You're taking so many things, it's impossible to tell the contribution of any one thing.  If it were me, I'd probably taper the rest of the hydroxyzine first, and leave the herbal formula until later. 

[Goosie]

Sorry to confuse everyone.  I do only taper one thing at a time.  I’ve been tapering the herbal blend ( and only that) for the last 5 weeks.   So far it’s been the hardest supplement to taper from.    Songbird I think I will take your advice and leave further tapers of the herbal blend for later.  I am going to hold until I stabilize and then taper the hydroxizine.   

 

I havent been been able to find any info about people trying to taper Passion flower/ valerian hence my question if any of you have had experience with that.   I guess when I resume the herbal blend taper I will have to go super slow.   Hopefully by that time I will be stronger and it won’t throw me into crisis.   

 

Thanks for for the responses.  

[Songbird]

It may not be about the particular thing you're trying to taper, and more about everything that's happened up to now, including withdrawal from Lexapro and Seroquel.

[Goosie]

Another night no sleep.    Sorry to be such a baby but I don’t know how to cope with the symptoms.   Are there any insomnia success stories you can point me too?

[dj2010]

31 minutes ago, Goosie said:

Another night no sleep.    Sorry to be such a baby but I don’t know how to cope with the symptoms.   Are there any insomnia success stories you can point me too?

 

Hi goosie, I consider myself a insomnia success story and I was on a cocktail of psych drugs for 15 years, have a look at the insomnia help threads on this site there are some great tips, Epsom salt baths, melatonin, blue light blocking glasses were most helpful to me

 

take care

[Goosie]

Hi @dj2010  thanks so much for your encouraging words.   I am so glad you are doing better.   I read your thread and though it sounds like you had a hard time, your worst sleep is like my best sleep.   I am hoping to stabilize to the 3-4 broken hours of sleep which come after hours awake that I consider a “window”.   I’m desperate running on 0 sleep.  MAy God help us all.   

[Goosie]

Also thank you to everyone on this site         

May you all be well

[Songbird]

Relaxation exercises and sleep hypnosis recordings helped me a lot when I had severe insomnia.

[Goosie]

Thanks songbird I will do more of that.  Today is a bit better.  It seems I sleep every other night.... I’ve had this happen often before.    @dj2010  did you find that some turmeric was excitatory or only the one with piperizine?     I have a lot of headaches and sinus issues so I was thinking the turmeric might help.   I am so glad you are a success story.  

[eymen23]

On 5/12/2019 at 10:12 PM, Goosie said:

Sorry to confuse everyone.  I do only taper one thing at a time.  I’ve been tapering the herbal blend ( and only that) for the last 5 weeks.   So far it’s been the hardest supplement to taper from.    Songbird I think I will take your advice and leave further tapers of the herbal blend for later.  I am going to hold until I stabilize and then taper the hydroxizine.   

 

I havent been been able to find any info about people trying to taper Passion flower/ valerian hence my question if any of you have had experience with that.   I guess when I resume the herbal blend taper I will have to go super slow.   Hopefully by that time I will be stronger and it won’t throw me into crisis.   

 

Thanks for for the responses.  

 

Although it’s perhaps less common or well documented, some individuals struggle with tapering or stopping herbal blends. I believe some of them act on GABA receptors, albeit less strongly than Benzos.

 

I think you will need to be much more gentle in tapering the herbal blend and it sounds like you’re currently suffering from rebound insomnia. 

 

I think the give away is that you’ve had 3 relatively good months and after reducing these herbal products are having nights of no sleep. Perhaps it’s sensible to take a little more of the herbal blend, an up dose it you will. I will check with some of the more experienced moderators.

 

@Shep - do you have any thoughts on the above? Your knowledge of Benzos and gaba acting supplements is much better than my own. 

[Songbird]

10 hours ago, eymen23 said:

I think you will need to be much more gentle in tapering the herbal blend and it sounds like you’re currently suffering from rebound insomnia. 

 

I think this is quite possible when a herbal sleep formula has been used every night for a fairly long period.  Please can you post here what is in the formula you use, i.e. the ingredients, dosage, and amount of each ingredient in a dose.

[Shep]

On 5/11/2019 at 9:08 PM, Goosie said:

 I have been trying to taper the supplrments I take for insomnia.   I managed to get down to 1 mg melatonin half a pill of tryptophan (250mg) 4-6 mg hydroxizine and 75% of 1 herbal blend pill.  ( it has valerian hops passionflower and lemon balm).    (Fully off the theanine and the magnesium glycinate). I do still take magnesium citrate.  After dropping to 50% of the herbal blend pill at the beginning of the week my sleep gradually deteriorated to nothing.   Has anyone tried to taper off a herbal blend before and had horrible symptoms as a result?  

 

Please updose the herbal blend pill back to where you were at the beginning of the week. 

 

Valerian, passionflower, and lemon balm all effect GABA. Since you also have a history of taking Ambien, I would be especially cautious, as you don't want to risk kindling. Kindling means that each subsequent taper has worse withdrawal symptoms than the previous one due to the trauma done to the GABA system and the overall nervous system. 

 

For more information, I'm going to link to a benzo withdrawal site that explores kindling in reference to benzodiazepines. Please note that Ambien and these types of GABA supplements are also recognized as having the same withdrawal effects as benzos and can lead to kindling:

 

What is the kindling phenomenon that occurs with benzodiazepines?

 

Since your reduction was at the beginning of the week, it's safe to return to your prior dose. 

 

Please let us know how you sleep after the updose. 

 

Going forward, I would treat this herbal supplement like a benzo or z-drug (such as Ambien). While the herbal supplements tend to be more mild than an actual benzo or z-drug, with a prior history of z-drug use and the possibility of kindling, it's best to be extra cautious in order to preserve your sleep.