Goosie: insomnia crisis

[Goosie]

hi @Shep.  I have been drug and supplement free for about a year. I updated my signature as requested.   For the last year, I have been tired and fatigued, with minor sleep difficulties.   All in all, very happy!!!! i was planning on writing a success story this month.   Unfortunately the extreme anxiety turned on like a switch with a few bad sleep nights in a row.   It's been so long I had forgotten what it felt like!

 

@Jen1234  Thank you for the message.  I don't feel like my anxiety is thought related- I was just going about doing my thing and it sort of appeared.   If I get some sleep it goes away.  If it were thought related that would actually be good because I could control it! At any rate I do my best to be confident that I can get through this despite the utter misery of it all.  

 

As an update- I got some sleep last night and feel really good today.  I of course know that I will toggle back and forth for a while ( that's what happened when I first got sick), so I am trying to brace myself for the coming storm.  Thank you all for your support.  iT is truly a life line.

 

Question for all the of the survivors out there- do you think that when a bad wave comes after a year of being better it will be easier to handle? Is this unexpected?

 

thank you and God bless

 

 

[Shep]

17 hours ago, Jen1234 said:

There are cortisol reducing adaptogens that may help with lowering cortisol.

 

I would be careful of adding in adaptogens. They are a hit or a miss for folks in withdrawal. Too much and it goes paradoxical. This seems to happen more to those whose nervous systems are still very hyper-reactive and to those on sedating drugs and / or supplements. @Goosiesince you're off everything now, you may have more success with this, but again, mindful caution is your friend. 

 

If anyone tries this, the usual reminders of "one at a time" and at a "low dose" apply. 

 

On 1/20/2021 at 3:49 PM, Goosie said:

Hello everyone.  I haven’t posted in a while- I’ve been steadily improving up until a week ago.    A week ago I missed my period and I’ve not been able to sleep since.    I am 43. Has anyone gone through protracted withdrawal during menopause?   Does sleep return after menopause?   I had been sleeping ok for about a year after two years of insomnia hell.   I will of course search this site for menopause threads but wanted to see if anyone had any advice.   I was getting ready to write a success story- hopefully one day I’ll be able to write it.   

 

I think you're dealing with two issues here. Please see this post in Brassmonkey's thread "Are We There Yet" thread:

 

 It Doesn’t end at “0”

 

It's very normal to be hit with a wave months after coming off. So I think this is in play.

 

And then you're dealing with peri-menopause. I hit this stage after I wrote my success story. I posted about it here in my success story:

 

Shep's experience with peri-menopause / menopause

 

Please note that I'm not linking to this to endorse the use of the supplement I found helpful. I believe that it's the combination of using this along with lots of exercise and a clean diet, as well as being more than 5 years off these drugs that have all helped. 

 

But I stand by the last line I wrote in that post - "I'm convinced that menopause gives women super powers. Never underestimate a woman over 50."

 

You're a lot younger than me, so I'll re-write that here to say "Never underestimate a woman over 40." 

 

You'll be fine, Goosie. Just take it a day at a time, eat healthy, drink plenty of water, exercise as intensely as your symptoms allow, find healing in nature, and know that the aging process brings wisdom and acceptance. And 43 is still VERY young! 

 

[Goosie]

Thank you @shep for the lovely reply.   I did sleep a few hours last night but unfortunately it did not alleviate my “akathesia”.    I spoke to my shrink and he said the extreme anxiety where you want to crawl out your skin is akathesia.    I believe this to be off the rails cortisol.    I started phosphitydal serine and Triptophan as my dr said it could help.    I am trying to stay positive in the midst of hell.    I am trying to read all the success stories where people survived this extreme anxiety and insomnia.   
sending lots of love.  

[Jen1234]

I hope it helps you Goosie! I’m not sure you’re shrink is correct in labeling extreme anxiety where you want to crawl out of your skin as akathisia. I think the two are separate conditions, but might feel similarly at times. I’ve felt that extreme anxiety where you are squirming in your seat, pacing, want to jump out of your skin, ect but its not akathisia. I tell you this in hopes it calms your nerves about having it. I think you’re probably more on target about the cortisol. You’re gonna get through this period I’m sure. You have excellent coping strategies under your belt and unfortunately experience with this from the past which I bet will help you in getting through this rough patch more quickly. 

[Goosie]

Thank you @Jen1234 for your kind reply.   You are probably right - not akathesia but extreme anxiety.    It’s just odd because I don’t feel worried or anxious- just in pain because of the extreme discomfort.  I woke so happy to have slept only to find myself on fire.  Does this make sense?   Do you feel this sometimes?  

[Jen1234]

Awww I’m so sorry to hear you are feeling this way. I was under the impression you were feeling anxious as well. Sorry I misunderstood, but it sounds like maybe a little more is going on too. I’ve experienced that overall burning sensation but only several times in the middle of the night and it always seemed quite random. I thought maybe it was some form of a panic attack, but I’m not sure. 

[Goosie]

The pain whatever it is called is horrific.    I don’t know if I can continue like this.    I must not be as strong as the other warriors on this site.   God bless

[Jen1234]

Not true at all! Just keep reminding yourself it will be temporary. If I remember correctly you don’t live somewhere where it’s cold outside right now, but perhaps take a cold shower. Sometimes that can snap your body out of that state. When I woke up with similar toxic like/burning/along with intense anxiety, stepping outside into the frigid weather helped a lot. 

[Goosie]

You are so kind @Jen1234     I went in the cold ocean this morning.      That used to help but the pain is so much I found little relief.    I can only pray that somehow my body will stop pumping out cortisol and let me rest.    

[Goosie]

I’m really worried- after a horrendous day I went through my cupboard to see if I had any supplements to take the edge off.   I took a lavender oil and the anxiety disappeared / bit I still can’t sleep.   I looked it up and found lavender works on benzos.   Did I just re throw myself into benzo withdrawal?   I need to add to my signature that this whole mess started with a phenibut cold turkey in 2018.  I didn’t realize it was in a vitimin I was taking, hence not in the signature when I wrote it. Will add.   
I thought the lavender oil wouldn’t do much but it is obviously a strong drug.   
I am so stupid.   This illness makes me even stupider than usual.   

[Shep]

16 hours ago, Goosie said:

 I started phosphitydal serine and Triptophan as my dr said it could help.

 

I've seen so many people go into lengthy protracted withdrawal due to throwing this or that into their bodies after they come off these drugs. Please research anything and everything before you take the word of a doctor. You don't have a "normal" nervous system right now. It's still very raw and very vulnerable. 

 

Also, this is a golden rule not only for psychiatric drugs, but also for supplements - only one thing at a time. Please see: 

 

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

Tryptophan may be problematic. Please see: 

 

5-HTP (5-hydroxytryptophan) and l-tryptophan

 

For the phosphatidylserine, please see:

 

Phosphatydilserine, aka phosphatidyl serine (Seriphos or Cortiphos)

 

In Alto's post here, she quotes the side effects: "Phosphatidylserine use can, however, cause side effects including insomnia and stomach upset, particularly at doses over 300 mg."

 

So if you do opt to bring either of these in, I would do so one at a time and at a very small dose. 

 

Are you already taking magnesium and fish oil? If not, you may want to start there, as those seem to be tolerated the best by people going through withdrawal. Again, small dose and one at a time rule still applies.

 

 

King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

3 hours ago, Goosie said:

I’m really worried- after a horrendous day I went through my cupboard to see if I had any supplements to take the edge off.   I took a lavender oil and the anxiety disappeared / bit I still can’t sleep.   I looked it up and found lavender works on benzos.   Did I just re throw myself into benzo withdrawal?

 

Lavender oil is very mild compared to a benzo, so it's affects on GABA are likely minimal. However, it's good to avoid it if it's triggering to your sensitized nervous system. 

 

Please work on non-drug coping skills. Reaching for something to "take the edge off" is worrisome, Goosie. There are better ways now that you're off these drugs. 

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Non-drug techniques for dealing with body pain

[Goosie]

Thanks @shep.   I started with a small dose of tryptophan and ps in the morning but it didn’t help so I will stop.   The lavender oil worked too well so I am terrified of the kickback and will never take again.   Unfortunately it’s another night if 0 sleep for me.   I am not one of these people that is ok on little sleep.  I got sick in the first place due to feeling terrible with insomnia and seeking help.   I’m already not working, spending time at the beach, doing legs up the wall all the time, breathing exercises all the time.   I’m just desperate as the pain is more than I can cope with.   It seems that my insomnia just gets worse.   I can’t get the nose to turn up.   I was hoping that this wouldn’t turn into a year long ordeal but now I have no hope to stabilize quickly.   I read the insomnia success stories over and over.   That’s what is keeping me hanging on.  

[Jen1234]

Hey Goosie,

 

How are you feeling and how are the akathisia like symptoms. Hope you’re ok

[Goosie]

Dear @Jen1234  bless you for reaching out.    It’s been very difficult.  The anxiety/akathesia is relentless but somehow am managing to snag an hour or two of sleep on most nights.   I also have micro sleeps sometimes for a few seconds at a time.    

also @Shep this might be important.  

When I first got insomnia three years ago I took a herbal supplement called kavinace and stopped after the bottle was done.   I only realized this year, after I had improved that the kavinace has phenibut which is like a benzo.    All the craziness started after the kavinace- I think it was benzo withdrawal.    I had the same fire, the same through the roof anxiety.   At that point I was poly drugged for being insane.     I will update my signature accordingly.    
 

I am having a small window now, so I can write this post.   Even writing a message is hard for me when the anxiety is raging.   
 

thank you so much for reaching out.   
I hope you are doing ok.  I pray for you nightly.    
 

a Question for @Shep-   Do you have experience with benzo withdrawal relapse?   
what is the course of action you would recommend?  
 

thank you and god bless

[Shep]

15 hours ago, Goosie said:

a Question for @Shep-   Do you have experience with benzo withdrawal relapse?   
what is the course of action you would recommend?  

 

What do you mean by "benzo withdrawal relapse"? Do you mean being in a wave after having experienced windows from benzo withdrawal? 

 

I don't want to answer you incorrectly because I don't understand the question, but I can give you some general benzo withdrawal information. It takes 2 - 4 weeks to become dependent on a benzo or benzo-like drug or supplement (there's some evidence that it can happen after only a few days). Benzo withdrawal is very similar to AD withdrawal and can last a few months or many years, with lots of waves and windows at times. A very non-linear and slow recovery. 

 

Does this help? 

[Goosie]

@Shep  yes I meant being in a wave after a nice year long window.     I’m so unstable- no sleep last night.    It’s hard to understand how this is the right thing to do- my previous insomnia episodes were mitigated by holding constant on the hydroxizine I was taking.   Now I’m not taking anything and it seems I’m in free fall.   I’m asking if this is the best thing to do.   Are you familiar with people going through this a year out when it is too late to reinstate?  Is white knuckleing it the best way to go?

[Shep]

Benzo reinstatements are best done 2 - 4 weeks after coming off. 

 

Many people have waves 10 months or more after coming off. This is VERY common. It's painful because you've been feeling better for so long, but unfortunately, it's part of the withdrawal journey. 

 

Please see:

 

It Doesn’t end at “0”

 

So, When Will We Get There?

 

Are you able to tolerate fish oil or magnesium? You may want to try these, adding them in one at a time and at a small dose. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

And the non-drug coping skills section has a lot of ways of soothing the nervous system:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

[Goosie]

Thank you @shep I am taking fish oil and magnesium baths.   They definitely help.    I had a golden milk ( with turmeric) ( just as a drink not for the turmeric) and noticed it seemed to make my anxiety lessen.    I then read the turmeric thread.   Since turmeric raises serotonin does that mean my anxiety is serotonin based rather than gaba disregulation?  
 

 Thank you

[HardTimes]

Hey Goosie!

Just noticed I didn't respond to your post on my page. It stinks that you're having insomnia issues again. I wish I could help with comments about the drugs/supplements you are asking about. I do find it very interesting that you seem to suffer the exact opposite kind of insomnia that I do (though I too have had those completely sleepless nights). Generally I can get to sleep. Sometimes I can even get to sleep really, way too early (like I'm passing out from sleepiness at 8pm). But then ZAP! The heatwave hits, the sense of boiling blood, the general nervous, adrenaline overdose sensations. When things are a bit more stable I manage to sleep until 5, and then that's it, even though I stay in bed reading, listening, watching tv, trying to sleep some more. With you you cannot GET to sleep until 5am. Which is weird. 

 

My only two cents: Exercise can be of some help to actually just make you physically tired. I try to make sure I walk for a while even if it is raining, or even go for a 30 minute run when I'm feeling really brave and pulled together. I've also recently had some considerable (and surprising) success with meditation. It doesn't always get me back to sleep, but I think the state I'm in when doing it is pretty close and likely healthier than the alternatives. Just sort of paying attention to my breathing, the weight of my body, and accepting the state I'm in NOW seems to calm things, at least sometimes!

 

Hoping you're doing a bit better today. Hang in there.

[Goosie]

@Shep   I had a suicide attempt and was given 1ativan pill .25 mg ( I asked for smallest amount and took half).    Do I have to taper from this?   Even though you don’t recommend reinstating after this long- do you think a tiny reinstatement of a benzo could help me stabilize?  Again my symptoms are extreme anxiety / akathesia nearly all day and night every day.   
 

this crisis is much worse then when I was originally drugged in the first place.     
 

thank you so much for your time.   

[Goosie]

@HardTimes thanks for your reply.    I wish I felt rested enough to fall asleep at the right time.    I am sure you will recover 100%.     I guess you don’t have debilitating anxiety all day?   It seems like I am such a bad case.    It is very hard to find hope but I am trying.    

[HardTimes]

Goosie,

Was your suicide attempt very recent? I don't know you at all and wish I could say better things to help you. But that's a really heavy situation you're in and I'm so sorry you're going through it. I get it. I've come closer than I ever expected to. But the number of people on this site who have been where you are and recovered should be encouraging. I'm not denying your situation is unique, but you are human and built like other people here, and everybody says it DOES get better if you can just keep hanging on. Get those hotline numbers out and handy. Please write as much as you'd like here - reach out to people you've connected with too via DM if that might help. Sometimes just ranting and raving a bit helps. 

 

Me? I do currently have a kind of "debilitating anxiety," but not all day and not every day. I'm extremely reluctant to get out of bed (even though I'm not sleeping), and my whole body is super nervous about everything, even checking email. By the evening I've settled a bit, so I think it is all about the hormone regulation stuff Alto talks about here: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/392-one-theory-of-antidepressant-withdrawal-syndrome/ and elsewhere. It helps me at least a little bit to understand what is happening to us...

 

I have to go, but please try to hang in there. Never hesitate to reach out to people who can help, anybody (even a stranger like me!). We all want you to get through this!

 

[Goosie]

Thank you @HardTimes    The suicide attempt was yesterday.     I got through this once before and was well for a year.   The last time though my symptoms would abate at night giving me a shot at sleep.    Now they are just all the time though I am currently having a window- praise God.    I don’t want to die but the pain is so much more than I can handle at times.    
 

I hope shep replies about whether or not I should taper the single small Ativan dose.   Or even hold at a small Ativan dose.     I was never on a benzo, but I did cold turkey off phenibut after taking it for a month. - that seemed to start the misery the first time around.    
 

sending prayers 

[Shep]

3 hours ago, Goosie said:

I had a suicide attempt and was given 1ativan pill .25 mg ( I asked for smallest amount and took half).    Do I have to taper from this?

 

You can simply stop after taking only one ativan pill. 

 

3 hours ago, Goosie said:

Even though you don’t recommend reinstating after this long- do you think a tiny reinstatement of a benzo could help me stabilize?

 

11 minutes ago, Goosie said:

I was never on a benzo, but I did cold turkey off phenibut after taking it for a month. - that seemed to start the misery the first time around.    

 

You asked if a "tiny reinstatement of a benzo could help" and then stated you were "never on a benzo." I just want to clarify your drug history, as benzo reinstatements generally don't work after you've been off a month or more. You have a history of using Ambien, which is a related drug, so you could end up with a kindled nervous system by going on and off these kinds of drugs. 

 

You've been off phenibut for 2 years, according to your signature. Have you seen any improvements at all since then? 

[Goosie]

Hi @shep.   Thank you so much for the reply.       Yes the only benzos I took were phenibut ( for one month in April 2018 and then in October- Jan when I was in inpatient hospital ( 2018).  As well as ambien as in my signature.   After the inpatient I was only on hydroxizine which I tapered for a year.     2020 I had stabilized and by fall 2020 I was enjoying my life.     Felt happy, though very fatigued.     
 

 

for the last month I have been in crisis- sleeping very poorly, anxiety all the time through the roof like I am on fire.   Symptoms progressing to attempted suicide to stop the pain.     I have already been through quite a lot so I am good with coping but this is too much for me due to the relentlessness of the anxiety / akathesia and the worsening of it due to inability to sleep for more that a few minutes on many nights.   
 

I was wondering if a tiny dose of a benzo might stabilize me.     At this point I need to do something for stability as doing nothing was just making things worse.    I know it’s not ideal, but with the suicidal ideation I feel like I need to do something just to get a little stability.    
I read that alto took a little lamotragine to help stabilize.   
 

if I end up in a psych ward it will be even worse with no control over medication so I am trying to avoid that.    
 

thank you so much and God bless.   

 

[Shep]

15 hours ago, Goosie said:

I was wondering if a tiny dose of a benzo might stabilize me.     At this point I need to do something for stability as doing nothing was just making things worse.    I know it’s not ideal, but with the suicidal ideation I feel like I need to do something just to get a little stability.    
I read that alto took a little lamotragine to help stabilize.   

 

With your history of ambien and the nootropic phenibut, I would not recommend going on a benzo. There's no way to know if it would help or not and the withdrawal may be worse due to kindling. 

 

You may want to try a very small amount of lamotragine. That would be better than starting a benzo. 

 

Did anything happen - consuming alcohol, taking an OTC medication, taking an antibiotic or another type of medication, dental work or other type of medical event, major life stress event, overdoing it with exercise or work, etc. - that set off this wave? 

 

If you think it's hormonal as you mentioned in this post here, I would seek out a holistic healthcare provider to have your hormones checked, if you're able to. 

[Goosie]

@ShepI took an online class which caused a little stress which triggered this wave.   It’s more horrific than the first time round- when I was polydrugged for insomnia.  

[Shep]

Thanks for this information, Goosie. It may be too soon to go into the rebuild stage of your recovery.

 

For now, I would concentrate on self care, learning more non-drug coping skills, and navigating your way holistically through this wave. 

 

It's not uncommon to have waves months after going into a really good window. And sometimes, the contrast can be so frightening that it seems worse than when we were in acute. But try to reassure yourself that it's just a wave. It will pass. 

 

I wouldn't go on a benzo for this. The more energy you can put into non-drug skills and self care, the better off you'll be. Part of the problem is battle fatigue and going onto another drug will mean having to deal with another withdrawal when you're more exhausted from being sick than you are now.

 

Just some thoughts. Again, waves do pass. They're exhausting, but they do pass. 

[Goosie]

I am sorry I was not able to stay benzo free.   After another suicidal incident my choices were go to psych ward or try the benzo.   This is really upsetting for me after working so hard to be med free but I am trying to stay positive.    I am taking .125 Ativan at night in an attempt to stabilize my sleep a bit.    This is day 2 of that.   It helps a bit.    
 

I will ask my dr about the lamictal.   I think my benzo dose is small so I am hoping to taper once I stabilize.   Than you and god bless.   

[Goosie]

I am sorry I was not able to stay benzo free.   After another suicidal incident my choices were go to psych ward or try the benzo.   This is really upsetting for me after working so hard to be med free but I am trying to stay positive.    I am taking .125 Ativan at night in an attempt to stabilize my sleep a bit.    This is day 2 of that.   It helps a bit.    
 

I will ask my dr about the lamictal.   I think my benzo dose is small so I am hoping to taper once I stabilize.   Than you and god bless.   

[Goosie]

.125 Ativan not really helping with extreme anxiety and akathesia.    Felt like the only option due to suicide attempts.      Is it too late to taper off?  Should I hold because I’m still suicidal due to the akathesua or try to taper off.   Sorry I’m so weak and desperate.    Been on 4 days.  .125 Ativan a night.    His bless.   @Shep

[HardTimes]

Goosie,

I'm so sorry you're going through all this. It really stinks. You really don't need to apologize to anybody here for being "weak and desperate"! Almost all of us have felt something like that at one point or another, and it isn't anything to be ashamed of or apologetic about.

 

I'm not experienced enough to advise you about the Ativan or any other drugs, I'm afraid. But I will say this: I know this forum is for supporting people that want to be drug free, but in my opinion pretty much anything you do is better than suicide!!! Suicide provides a permanent, bad solution to what is very likely a temporary problem, even if it doesn't seem temporary at the time. Given the choice between a drug and death, I'll take the drug! Then when you're ready you can try to reduce the drug if you can. But adding into the psychological mix a bunch of blame and shame for being "weak" is not helpful. You're not weak - you're undergoing trauma! Being hit by a bus is not weakness. Try not to be mean to yourself.

 

For the drug stuff there is SO much to read here, and there are lots of moderators or users you can try nudging for advice if you want to (maybe by looking around you'll find someone with experience in exactly your situation?). Ultimately it is your decision. From what I personally understand, 4 days of anything, even a benzo, shouldn't be the end of the world - if it is helping keep you alive, it is good! If it isn't doing anything at all, think again.

 

Hang in there and I really hope you manage to get some relief soon!

 

[Goosie]

@HardTimes thank you for the support.    It’s hArd to know what to do.    

[HardTimes]

Oh I know. Brother/Sister, I know! Really super hard! And we so want somebody to tell us what to do, because the decisions all seem so impossible! But the best thing we can do is solicit information from people we trust (like on this site, but maybe also doctors, friends, counselors, etc.) and make an informed decision. I guarantee that nobody will think suicide is the best option!

 

You're in San Diego - that's a big city with lots of resources! Are you perhaps able to find some other resources locally that might help? I'm thinking of mental health support groups, or SSRI withdrawal groups, or suicide prevention organizations, or church/mosque/community based organizations? Sometimes that sort of human connection can really help. I know Covid makes everything difficult, but I strongly advise you to seek out local support too if you haven't already done so, as that might be more immediate than waiting for responses here. Particularly if you are in immediate crisis. It may seem hard to find, but I bet there is more where you are than where I am, that's for sure!

 

Please keep hanging in there. You're very brave and dealing with a very difficult situation, so be kind to yourself!

[Shep]

On 2/14/2021 at 12:10 AM, Goosie said:

.125 Ativan not really helping with extreme anxiety and akathesia.    Felt like the only option due to suicide attempts.      Is it too late to taper off?  Should I hold because I’m still suicidal due to the akathesua or try to taper off.   Sorry I’m so weak and desperate.    Been on 4 days.  .125 Ativan a night.    His bless.   @Shep

 

You can do a rapid taper off after 4 days, Goosie, but if you feel it's the "only option" to keep you from suicide, then I'm not sure how to advise you and would encourage you to seek on-the-ground support if you're still struggling with suicidal ideation and feel you may act on it: 

 

For those who are feeling desperate or suicidal

 

As long as you believe your only option is to take a drug which, in the long term, destroys sleep architecture, you'll be on the psychiatric drug merry-go-round indefinitely. 

 

At some point, acceptance is going to be key:

 

Acceptance and Hope

 

You're going through a very brutal wave, which will pass in time. But continuing to reach for psychiatric drugs and nootropics is only causing you problems. I wish there was an easy fix to this, but the recommendations for fish oil and magnesium (for those who can tolerate them), and non-drug coping skills have been posted for you. And as far as we know, these are the best ways through, along with a lot of distractions and acceptance. A healthy protein rich diet with low sugar and no caffeine or alcohol can also help. 

 

The waves do pass. I have yet to come across anyone who literally died from not sleeping due to withdrawal. I went for long periods of time myself without much sleep at all. But over time, sleep will come and the akathisia will fade out. 

[Jen1234]

Hey Goosie,

 

Been thinking of you. How are you feeling?