DogLover: Effexor 12 months in

[DogLover]

Hi Everyone!

I decided to quit 20+ years of 75mg EffexorXR by tapering down over about 6 weeks. Which was surprisingly easy until I went bat sh*t crazy.

That was the hard part... going crazy. I remember sitting on my laptop and suddenly feeling like I was a camp councilor at Crystal Lake and Jason was hot on my trial. Not kidding. I actually felt like I was in a horror movie. It was horrible. The craziest thing is that it didn't even cross my mind that Effexor had anything to do with it!!!! My sister gave me that idea.

So, I reinstated my dose and tapered about 15% per month and found this forum. That went fine for awhile, but had to slow down to 10%. I'm about 12-18 months along on my taper and I'm down to 12 little tiny bbs!!!! As I write this I'm fine, but sometimes things are hard. Very hard. Over the last 6 months I think I've read every book and watched every video about tappering/depression/anxiety/supplements/therapy/etc. I cannot begin to thank those that monitor SA. You are amazing people and need to be recognized!

And that is pretty much it. Oh yeah, I'm 50 or 51. I try not to think about it.

So, I'm down to 12 bbs/day and I loath every cut. I know in three days I'm going to feel horrible. It seems that in the beginning the tapering was pretty easy, but as I get toward the end it gets WAY more difficult. Is this typical?

 

[ChessieCat]

Hi DogLover and welcome to SA,

 

I'm pleased to read that you did reinstate and that it was successful.  It's also good that you realised that you need to taper more slowly.

 

SA recommends tapering by no more than 10% of the current dose followed by a hold of about 4 weeks to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.  Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

When the drug is taken away too quickly we can get withdrawal symptoms:  Dr Joseph Glenmullen's Withdrawal Symptoms

 

You might find it helpful to read Post #1 of this topic:  About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

This topic explains how to get the dose you need:  Tips for tapering off Effexor (venlafaxine)

 

Tapering Calculator - Online

 

Once you provide more information about the dates and doses it will be easier for us to make suggestions, but it sounds like you need to hold on your current dose for a while to allow your brain to catch up from the reductions you have made up until now.  Please see the information in the next post.

 

 

Please create your drug signature to show the following information.

 

Keep it simple.  NO diagnoses or symptoms please - thank you.

• details for last 2 years - dates, ALL drugs, doses
• summary for older than 2 years - just years and drug/s

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

 

 

I will provide more information in the next couple of posts.  This is your own introductions topic where your can ask questions about your own situation and journal your progress.

[ChessieCat]

Here's some additional information which might help you to understand what is happening:

 

Recovery isn't linear it happens in a Windows and Waves Pattern

 

It is better to hold for longer than to reduce too soon:  Withdrawal Normal Description

When we take a psychiatric drug, we are adding chemical/s to the brain.  The brain then has to change to adapt to getting the chemical/s.  It might have to change something to do with A and then once that change has been made it affects B so another change has to be made and so on down the line.  It is a chain reaction, a domino effect.

 

The same thing happens when we take the drug away.  That's why it's possible to experience such a vast array of withdrawal symptoms, and they can change, and be of different intensity.

 

are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take

 

These explain it really well:

 

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

On 8/31/2011 at 5:28 AM, Rhiannon said:

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long.

 

AND

 

On 12/4/2015 at 2:41 AM, apace41 said:

Basically- you have a building where the MAJOR steel structures are trying to be rebuilt at different times - ALL while people are coming and going in the building and attempting to work.

It would be like if the World Trade Center Towers hadn't completely fallen - but had crumbled inside in different places.. Imagine if you were trying to rebuild the tower - WHILE people were coming and going and trying to work in the building!  You'd have to set up a temporary elevator - but when you needed to fix part of that area, you'd have to tear down that elevator and set up a temporary elevator somewhere else. And so on. You'd have to build, work around, then tear down, then build again, then work around, then build... ALL while people are coming and going, ALL while the furniture is being replaced, ALL while the walls are getting repainted... ALL while life is going on INSIDE the building. No doubt it would be chaotic. That is EXACTLY what is happening with windows and waves.  The windows are where the body has "got it right" for a day or so - but then the building shifts and the brain works on something else - and it's chaos again while another temporary pathway is set up to reroute function until repairs are made.  

 

[ChessieCat]

During any taper, there will be times of discomfort.  We strongly encourage members to learn and use non drug coping techniques to help get through tough times.

 

Understanding what is happening helps us to not get caught up with the second fear, or fear of the fear.  This happens when we experience sensations in our body and because we don't understand them we are scared of them and then start to panic.

 

This document has a diagram of the body explaining what happens in the body when we become anxious:

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/docs/AnxietySelfHelp.pdf

 

Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help ...

 

Audio FEMALE VOICE:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Audio MALE VOICE:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

Dr Claire Weekes suffered from anxiety and learned and taught ways of coping.  There are videos available on YouTube.

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

CBT Course:  An Introductory Self-Help Course in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy

 

Resources:  Centre for Clinical Interventions (PDF modules that you can work through, eg:  Depression, Distress Intolerance, Health Anxiety, Low Self-Esteem, Panic Attacks, Perfectionism, Procrastination, Social Anxiety, Worrying)

 

On 4/28/2017 at 4:03 AM, brassmonkey said:

 

AAF: Acknowledge, Accept, Float.  It's what you have to do when nothing else works, and can be a very powerful tool in coping with anxiety.  The neuroemotional anxiety many of us feel during WD is directly caused by the drugs and their chemical reactions in the brain.  Making it so there is nothing we can do about them.  They won't respond to other drugs, relaxation techniques and the like.  They do, however, react very well to being ignored.  That's the concept behind AAF.  Acknowledge, get to know the feeling involved, explore them.  Accept, These feelings are a part of you and they aren't going anywhere fast. Float, let the feeling float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.  It's a well documented fact that the more you feed in to anxiety the worse it gets.  What starts as generalized neuroemotinal anxiety can be easily blown into a full fledged panic attack just by thinking about it.

 

I often liken it to an unwanted house guest.  At first you talk to them, have conversations, communicate with them.  After a while you figure out that they aren't leaving and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them.  So you go on about your day, working around them until they get bored and leave.

 

It can take some practice, but AAF really does work.  I hope you give it a try.

 

 

[DogLover]

ChessieCat: Thanks for the response. I've read most of it, although a little too late. 

I've been lurking on this board for months and decided to join so that I can give my recovery story some time down the road.

 

[ChessieCat]

Please create your drug signature so we can see your drug history at a glance.  Thank. you.

[Carmie]

Hi Doglover, 

 

I wanted to welcome you to SA as well. Am I correct in assuming you love dogs?🐶😄 How are you doing?💚

[DogLover]

 Carmie,

 

Hi! Yes, I do love dogs. They are amazing creatures!  Sadly, I lost my best friend last fall. That was pretty hard to take combined with AD withdrawals.

 

I'm doing about 60%, thanks for asking. How are you?

 

John

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by ChessieCat
removed number below name

[Carmie]

Hi John, 

 

I’m so sorry you lost your dog, that’s so sad. We get so attached to our pets, don’t we? I’ve shed many a tear losing pets. 

 

You feel 60% well. That’s fabulous! I’m glad you’re doing so well. I’ve still got many more years of tapering to go myself, I can only taper by small amounts. I just keep finding lots of distractions to keep myself going, I have lots of interests and things to keep me amused no matter how I’m feeling.

 

Are you still at 3.6mg? What percentage are you tapering by now? 

 

I just wanted to let you know that B vitamins can be activating which isn’t too good when going through withdrawals, you may have already read that on this site as you’ve said you’ve read a lot.

 

I wish you all the best in your continued tapering.💚

 

 

 

[DogLover]

Carmie,

 

Hi! Yes, loosing a pet is horrible. They bring nothing but joy and love into life.

 

I'm down to 12 little bbs of Effexor, I read somewhere that each bb is .3 mg, but after counting them I think it's .6mg. So, I'm right with you at ~7.2mg. I knew that V B complex was a bit activating, but didn't think of that as a bad thing. It is so hard to take the advice of sit back and deal with the discomfort of withdrawal. I keeping searching for an answer. 3%?

 

You went from 300mg to 7.5mg. WOW! That's a big drop! At 7.5 you still have many more years?

[Carmie]

Hi Doglover, 

 

I wish you all the best with your continued tapering. Yes, I’m going to go down by around 3% for the next five tapers. Before then I went down by about 4% or 5%. I’m using a 5ml syringe and I was hoping of going down by 5% a month doing the brassmonkey slide ( and holding for two extra weeks) by also using a 1ml syringe as well, but the 1ml syringe and the 5ml syringe aren’t the same. There are BD syringes, and even though they’re from the same company they don’t match up. One ml of the 5ml syringe isn’t the same as the 1ml syringe. 

 

I will somehow have to do a crossover of syringes one day because of the inconsistencies in them. I thought the easiest thing for now is just to drop by 0.25mg a month. Each ml is 1.25mg, and it’s split into fifths, so I’ll be dropping by a fifth each month. At the end of the five months I’ll be down to 6.25mg. 

 

I can’t tolerate tapering by more than 4% to 5% now. I’ve been on and off so many meds that my system is really sensitised. I was originally put on meds because of chronic pain, which I don’t have now.  I did drop by higher percentages when I was on higher doses, but I can’t do that with the lower doses. A lot of people find they have to slow down with the lower doses. I won’t be jumping off my meds until I’m down to 0.0something.

 

Take care💚

[DogLover]

Carmie,

 

When you pause your taper and keep your current dose, do symptoms generally lift, stay the same, get worse or is it random?

I've been at my current dose since February 2019 and it has been a roller coaster. Up and down. Up and down!

[ChessieCat]

Recovery isn't linear it happens in a Windows and Waves Pattern

 

It is better to hold for longer than to reduce too soon:  Withdrawal Normal Description

[Carmie]

7 hours ago, DogLover said:

Carmie,

 

When you pause your taper and keep your current dose, do symptoms generally lift, stay the same, get worse or is it random?

I've been at my current dose since February 2019 and it has been a roller coaster. Up and down. Up and down!

 

Hi Doglover, 

 

After each taper I always stabilise, and my symptoms are then minimal. A lot of times in the past I’ve had long holds, just to have a bit of a break from withdrawals. No matter how severe or how long my waves lasted I always ended up stabilising again. Sometimes when waves are bad or they feel like they are going on forever you can feel like they are never going to end, but they’ve always ended, I’ve always stabilised. 

 

Yes, this journey is a rollercoaster ride, you’re definitely right there.🎢🎢🎢🎢 The ride will come to a stop one day. 

 

Are you tapering by 10% now? If you’re finding it too much cut down the percentage rate. 

 

Are you holding after each drop for a minimum of a month? We need to be stable before we taper again, sometimes it can take longer than a month. Always listen to your body. The holds are just as important as the percentage we taper by. I’ve held for many months sometimes.

 

Are you able to put the dates and mgs of your tapering for the last for doses into your signature? Thank you. 

 

Please don’t taper again until you are stable. 

 

Wishing you all the best in your recovery 💚

[DogLover]

Carmie,

 

I've been at 12 bbs since Feb 1 and don't seem to be stabilizing. I'm able to function, but feel like I'm about to burst into tears any moment and my anxiety level is pretty high. All levels are at that point were I feel like they are just about to boil over, but not quit. I've had to take a .25 dose of Lorazepam a few times to settle down. L-Theanine too. I'm sleeping good. In fact, that's all I want to do. In the morning my cortisol levels get high and I need to move reduce them.

 

I don't seem to be stabilizing.  I can't tell if I'm getting worse or am in the same position. Thinking about upping my dose a tad or waiting it out.

[ChessieCat]

It would be a good idea to keep daily symptoms notes so that you can be objective about them.  As Carmie said when we are feeling bad it feels like it will never end or that there has been no improvement.

 

The fact that you are sleeping is really good.  Insomnia makes withdrawal so much worse to deal with.

 

Rate Symptoms Daily to Check Patterns and Progress

 

Example:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

[Carmie]

Hi Doglover, 

 

As ChessieCat said it’s a good idea to keep a daily log. You can just write them down on a notepad or on your computer. Once you have three days worth put them on here. 

 

You tapered on February the 1st. That really isn’t a long time ago, sometimes it takes more than a month to stabilise. At times it’s taken me months to stabilise after a drop, especially if it was too high a drop. You will eventually stabilise.

 

It really is good that you are sleeping. So many people on here are struggling with sleep.

 

I noticed in your signature that you said you are getting plenty of exercise. Doing too much can actually ramp up your CNS and can make the symptoms worse. A few people find that doing strenuous exercise helps them, but the vast majority find that their symptoms get worse because of it. It’s usually best to do some light walking or some stretching.

 

I would also still consider stopping the B vitamins for a while, and see if that makes a difference.

 

Take care💚

[DogLover]

Carmie,

 

I will give the journal a try.

As far as the exercise, I do walk for 1 - 3 miles daily. It's the only activity throughout the day that I look forward to and enjoy. 

Today I felt great all day!!!!

[DogLover]

I seem to be getting worse and I'm barely hanging on at work. My anxiety levels have been increasing gradually over the past few weeks. I was sleeping very well, but now I find it hard to calm down. And I've been waking up throughout the night and feel stress as soon as I do. This is the worst I've felt sense crashing on my fast taper a year or so ago.

 

I've been walking too much, but it's the only thing that keeps me able to hang on. I filled out a daily log on paper, but can't get that and the computer in the same place. I'll try to get that soon.

I think I need to up my Effexor dose from 12 bbs to 13, 14 or 15 bbs.

 

[ChessieCat]

We see those early-morning symptoms a lot. It's your normal cortisol cycle peaking Waking with panic or anxiety -- managing cortisol spikes

 

Cortisol is the daytime hormone. It is triggered by early morning light from the sun. You may be able to reduce this by using a sleep mask to block out the light, plus blackout curtains and shades in your bedroom. Soft music might keep your system calmer, too. See

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

Withdrawal dialogues & encouragement

[marconyc]

@DogLover I noticed that you said your anxiety has been increasing over the past few weeks. If you haven't made any medication changes, you might think about whether other stressors in your life are the culprit. For example, maybe over the past few weeks you were given a project at work, and while this kind of project wouldn't normally have stressed you out much, now that you're in withdrawal, it's affecting you negatively. I have found that my tolerance for stress has gone way down since withdrawal started. Even things like a vacation can stress me out. I might find myself having insomnia and wondering what's going on, thinking, "I haven't changed my meds lately. Is this just recurrence of my depression or panic? Is something going on with me biochemically that I'm not aware of?" And then I'll realize that I'm anticipating an upcoming vacation. We tend to get very focused while in withdrawal on drug dosages, interactions, supplements, etc, which is understandable. But we shouldn't ignore other life stressors--in fact, their impact is magnified during withdrawal.

[DogLover]

Marconyc,

 

Thank you for the post! The stress is in my head. Nothing much has changed. 

CC,

 

Thank you, too! My room is a bear cave.

 

I just think-and I'll admit my thinking is cloudy-is that maybe I tapered much too fast and that it is catching up to me.

 

 

[DogLover]

things are not leveling out and my anxiety is increasing. i took 1mg of lorazepam through out the day/night to settle down.  i know i should be careful with benzos, but i feel like im spiraling out of control. i keep pacing and walking. my appetite is gone.

 

i increased dose of effexor from 12 to 13bbs and waiting 4 days then repeat until i feel better able to function.

[ChessieCat]

6 hours ago, DogLover said:

increased dose of effexor from 12 to 13bbs and waiting 4 days then repeat until i feel better able to function.

 

It might be better to wait for at least a week before increasing again.  It takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to full level in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.

 

Try not to panic and end up taking too much.  If you take too much it might make things a lot worse.

[DogLover]

I already panicked! Sorry, but I was in a bad way.  I broke down and spiked my day with an extra 3bbs of EffexorXR and half a Lorazepam (.5mg).

Last night I tried some Inositol and magnesium and it did seemed to help me sleep. I slept until 8AM.

Here's my current thinking. After reading over my notes and timelines I think I tapered WAY too fast. To recap the entire story, I fast tapered about a year+ ago and had a bad reaction. Then, I reinstated and decided to taper over the course of a year. My plan at the time was to cut the reinstatement dose until I started getting uncomfortable, then take it slow. THEN I started the 10% taper, cutting my dose every month. Four months into that, I cut my dose 10% per month. I was being aggressive, because I wanted to be through with this nonsense. Now my philosophy has changed. I firstly want to become a functional human being again. I want to smile and talk. Secondly I want to taper. So, if that means I need to take a few steps back up to whatever dose, then so be it. I don't know why I was in a hurry the get rid of this stuff anyways.
 

 

[ChessieCat]

23 minutes ago, DogLover said:

extra 3bbs of EffexorXR and half a Lorazepam (.5mg).

Last night I tried some Inositol and magnesium

 

That's 3 changes you made in one go.  That makes it very difficult to figure out what is helping/harming.  Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

[Altostrata]

27 minutes ago, DogLover said:

So, I wanted to update everyone about the Walsh Method. I had my consult and here's my list of supplements: P5P, B6, Vitamin C, Zinc Picolinate, Mo-Zyne, L-Methionine, SAMe, Cal/Mag, Evening Primrose.
 

On my introductions page, you'll find that I'm not doing too well. The past few days my anxiety levels have been pretty high. I'm in no shape to start a protocol at this time, so sadly I'll have to wait. I did buy all the supps though.

 

Did you take any of these supplements?

 

Here are the ones our members have reported are stimulating (may cause anxiety): P5P, B6, L-Methionine, SAMe

 

Have no idea what Mo-Zyne is. Taking calcium with magnesium cancels out the calming effect of the magnesium.

 

So whatever recommendations you got from the Walsh method do not appear to address your current symptoms.

[DogLover]

No, I did not take anything from Walsh. I don't plan to until I calm down.

 

I wish I knew whether this recent rough stretch is a rough stretch or a built up withdrawal.
 

I'm no stranger to these anxiety attacks as I've had them all my life. I used to get them every three-five years sense I was a little kid. I remember crushing a neighbor's squirt gun on his porch and not being able to settle down for days after I did it. Same with killing a bird. The anxiety attacks got worse as time progressed. Girls taught me what real pain was all about. They had a way of pulling me out of my depression/anxiety so effectively that when they dumped me, it was like quitting AD's cold turkey. After one break-up I didn't sleep for days. I would see the sun go up and the sun go down.

So, is this just me without meds? Typical question ask plenty on this forum.

 

[ChessieCat]

It sounds like you have not been taught and learned ways to deal with regular life situations which we all have happen to us.

 

Being an a drug doesn't change those things, it just numbs the emotions which means that we don't do anything to help ourselves.

[DogLover]

I'm trying.

 

I went to see my GP today. His advice? "Try not to let life get to you." Thanks doc.

 

 

[DogLover]

I'm really freaking out!!! Please help!!!

My stress levels and anxiety keep increasing and I don't know what to do. I'm getting that same feeling when I fast tapered a year ago. Fear. Panic. Chills. I've had windows, but I think I'm getting progressively worse.

 

I think I need reinstatement dosing of EffexorXR. I don't know what to add. What is safe?  I'm currently at 13 BBS.

I AM SORRY I HAVEN'T KEPT TO KEEP IT SIMPLE!!!!  I just panic and add things. I've been taking Inositol and magnesium. I wouldn't do this if I wasn't getting worse. I'm trying to keep my business alive.

 

 

[puthappinessfirst]

Hi there. Sorry you are having such a rough time. I am in a bad wave right now as well and my mind is racing 1000 miles a minute. Hang on, you'll be ok, and I am sure a mod will be by soon! ❤️ 

[DogLover]

Thank you. It kinda passed a bit. Thanks!

 

I just think I tapered WAY too fast and it took a while to catch up

 

I see you CT'd. Ouch! Did you freak out?

 

[puthappinessfirst]

Only after 4 or 5 months, that's when it hit. And yes, I was freaking the heck out. It's slowly gotten better after my reinstatement, but it's a long, rough road. 

[DogLover]

I keep getting little waves of terror.

 

[DogLover]

I just read the up-dosing thread, which gave me plenty to think about. I already added one bead to my daily dose, but I'm thinking that based on how I'm feeling, I might consider more. I've seen posts where others reinstate up to a higher dose, like maybe adding 20%, 50% etc.

 

Any advice? Can I try going back up to 15bbs? 20Bbs?   I'm at 13 currently as of 3/18

I'm VERY anxiety/panic ridden and I seems to be getting worse in the last week.