wisconsin: protracted WD lasting 6 years now

[Winterflower]

I really admire how dedicated you are and I know he’s going to heal because 6 months ago I was utterly incapacitated and wrecked and today i’m basically back to being functional, tbh I also agree that the supplements would most likely be too stimulating at this point and delaying recovery, gentle exercise worked miracles for me, detoxing might help but 4 years after withdrawal there is no trace of Effexor left in his system, only the changes the ssri would have made to his CNS. Even an ordinary multivitamin gave me heart palpitations, and I steered clear of caffeine & alcohol too which would always disrupt or set me back. Literally all I took was fish oil and magnesium as needed, exercised, kept a clean diet and made sure I slept well. hope this was of some use to you and all the best!! 💙

[wisconsin]

Bubble, Shep, Chessie, I have not gotten back to you all yet because I wanted to show the doctor what you have said. I really do appreciate all your help and I love this site. I have been learning so much. I only wish I found it sooner. I have to say for the last year that since he has been taking the supplements he is a lot better - certainly not back to normal but better.  So how do we explain that? 

 

Also, the doctor we go to is someone very special and well respected in her field. Have you ever heard of Dr. Nick Gonzalez?   He passed away 4 years ago and she was his partner. His final interview is on nutrition ( check it out on the web) She was treated by Dr Gonzalez 25 years ago with the same protocol when she became deafly ill from mishandling chemicals in a chemistry lab - they were also neurotoxins. After she got better she joined his practice and continues his work today. 

 

I didn't mention that my son was first hit on the side of the face with a baseball which seemed to have started his depression which led to taking Effexor (unbelievable right). 

The doctor is working on the theory that we live in a toxic world, he got injured and he reacted so badly to a drug - three different issues and all contributing to a greater or lesser degree.  Her belief is that you give the body the nutrients -the raw materials - it needs to help detoxify the body and  it will heal itself.

 

I hate to jump ship now without thoroughly investigating all sides. What if it is actually helping him?

 I will get you the answers to your questions as best I can.

I see you were concerned about the Li.

I know the reason he was given Li was because his level in a hair analysis test came back very low.  But I will talk to her about that too.

Also, the hypothalamus, adrenals, liver,  brain and  pancreas are all glandulars from a very pure source in New Zealand ( under very strict guidelines).

Is there a problem with glandulars? Have you heard of problems with glandulars?

I really appreciate your help and welcome all your suggestions.

Wisconsin

 

[wisconsin]

Winterflower,

Wow, now I am starting to get nervous about all these supplements.

Thanks

[wisconsin]

Question for a Moderator.

I recently saw a video on this web site that I can't seem to find again.  It was had four people talking about their recoveries. I think they were British. One was of a black women talking and a man named Paul. Do you know the video I am talking about? if so where is ?  I really would love to listen to it again.

 

Thank you

[Altostrata]

There are plenty of things wrong with glandulars, principle among them being that they contain hormones and other substances your son may not need that may be harmful to him.

 

The Internet being what it is, over the years our members have tried just about everything you can imagine for withdrawal symptoms. The Symptoms and Self-care forum  is full of topics about all kinds of alternative treatments. If they seem genuinely helpful, such as acupuncture, we make a practice of recommending them when appropriate.

 

We have not seen integrative doctors, naturopaths, or alternative practitioners have any more understanding of withdrawal syndrome than any other type of doctor. They tend to think it's like depression and needs stimulation, which usually is the opposition of what people in withdrawal need.

 

Withdrawal syndrome occurs from a lack of the drug, not the presence of the drug as an impurity in your body. While detoxification protocols may be a distraction while you are waiting to heal, they can do harm and be expensive, too. Sadly, when it comes to withdrawal, detox is magical thinking.

 

Please read How good are naturopaths and other alternative practitioners?

 

Liver detox, gallbladder flush, internal cleansing, enemas, fasting, & other detoxification methods

 

Lithium Orotate

 

wisconsin, I wish you well. While we do support a lot of non-drug treatments, you're not going to find support for detoxification rituals here. If any of those supplements are too stimulating, they're setting your son back in the healing process. Please also be aware that lithium can actually be toxic, even in over-the-counter dosages, and he should have kidney function tests while taking it.

[wisconsin]

Alto, I had a discussion today with my son's doctor and we agreed to stop the supplements and see how he does over the next three months. I am going to continue to focus on good nutrition, sleep, exercise , meditation, EFTand pray that I will see healing.

[Altostrata]

What is your son taking now?

[wisconsin]

Altostraya,  He is going to take curcumin, magnesium, krill oil

and maybe Primrose oil, and chlorophyl. 

What do you think of that?

 

[Winterflower]

Wisconsin any improvements? x

[Peachy]

On 3/19/2019 at 8:22 AM, wisconsin said:

Cnick91,thank you for your post.  You sound like you are doing really well in such a short time since being off the drug. You are very driven which I think is key.

 We know of the Wim Hof technique and have tried it.  But I didn't think he was breathing right so we stopped. Maybe we should look at it again.  I wish my son could be more in charge of his healing. Sometimes reading these post makes me very nervous.  I like what you said about growth mindset. That has always been the way I think. I showed my son some videos on it.  He thinks he has a growth mindset, but I am not sure if he is a fighter. He does everything I tell him to do such as yoga ( which I don't think he cares for), meditation, running etc., but he doesn't think to do them himself.   Last night we were playing a card game called Set (it is a good brain game) but he was getting a little frustrated because he was very slow at it and wanted to give up. That doesn't sound like a growth mindset.

 

I also looked up your intro and saw that you asked about detoxification stuff but no one responded. I don't think the moderators think it is a good idea but my son has been doing a lot of it.  You should look up Dr. Kelly Brogan .  She is a NYC psychiatrist who specializes in getting women off these medications and one of her components is detoxification.The testimonials all swear by it on her website. Also you should look up Dr Nick Gonzalez (final interview on nutrition) - all good stuff to learn.

I love kelly, and I did her entire program, but the detoxification and especially the coffee enemas were making me way worse. 

I tried every supplement, and all made me worse. When we are so hypersensitive, we react to almost everything. Please stop the supplements. I can almost guarantee they are causing reactions. I’m 3 years in and I am even more sensitive now than in the beginning. Even chocolate sets me off. 

[SkyBlue]

8 hours ago, Peachy said:

I love kelly, and I did her entire program, but the detoxification and especially the coffee enemas were making me way worse. 

I tried every supplement, and all made me worse. When we are so hypersensitive, we react to almost everything. Please stop the supplements. I can almost guarantee they are causing reactions. I’m 3 years in and I am even more sensitive now than in the beginning. Even chocolate sets me off. 

 

I'm glad you mentioned this program/protocol. It really does seem quite extreme, and therefore not much different from the loads of supplements that naturopathic drs, etc., give people for withdrawal. The diet is also quite extreme and one-size-fits-all. I have to stay away from her stuff because of a severe eating disorder history, but this is a good reminder for me that I'm not the only one who isn't going to find healing there. I do appreciate that she seems to understand withdrawal and the dangers of psych drugs.

[Peachy]

@SkyBlue@wisconsin 

i do actually like and follow her diet! I was vegan before and it really pushed me to eat meat. I am so much healthier in a lot of ways now. But I too have a tendency for disordered eating, and it can be tricky to navigate these strict diets. But in the end I just learnt to nourish myself instead of “dieting”. 

[Eastcoastgirl]

That is the largest list of supplements i've ever seen here, especially in a young boy. Without those, he could possibly be healed. I know that people who are not even going through withdrawal can react to any of those supplements, both mentally and physcially. A lot of them aren't even necessary for a healthy person. He is experiencing withdrawal but he is not sick. 

[RichT]

On 3/23/2019 at 12:30 PM, wisconsin said:

Altostraya,  He is going to take curcumin, magnesium, krill oil

and maybe Primrose oil, and chlorophyl. 

What do you think of that?

 

 

This worries me - maybe the mods can weigh in and let me know if i’m worrying needlessly. Edit: just realised that the quote above comes  from March. If everything has worked out fine since the end of March, then ignore me!

 

Your son has been taking dozens of supplements, and if he’s been taking them for a while, his metabolism will have adjusted itself to their presence.  For example, if a supplement contains an ingredient that his body would normally make, then the metabolic pathway that makes it could well be turned down. Stopping them all at once could be a significant shock to him, as his metabolism has to adjust itself to multiple changes at once, and as he’s already highly sensitised, the impact might be even higher. It might be better to phase them out gradually.

 

R

Edited May 11, 2019 by RichT

[wisconsin]

Hi everyone, 

 

I haven't been on this forum for a while  and just realized  people have been writing to me, so I apologize for not responding.

I stopped all my sons supplements since the end of March. Once in a while, he takes Krill oil.

 

I think he might be doing a little better as far as looking more normal, but his cognitive function  and short term memory is very very poor.  He can't write anything intelligent, doesn't retain what he reads and can't engage in conversation.  Also, his math skills have gotten worse or maybe he is in a wave.

 

The good news is that he has less flat affect and he is generally very kind to be with.

Surprisingly, he can still play the piano pretty well - I can't figure that out.  I am just hoping time will heal him and that his recovery is just around the corner.

It has been 4years and 3 months. He was 18 yrs old when he was given Effexor , only on it for 2 months and then tapered off in one month.

 

[Shep]

On 5/11/2019 at 9:38 PM, wisconsin said:

Surprisingly, he can still play the piano pretty well - I can't figure that out.

 

He may be interested in music therapy to help with his symptoms.

 

Music Therapy / Music for Wellness and Healing

[wisconsin]

Hi I haven’t been on this sight for 2 1/2 years.

I am so distraught that my son is still in withdrawal. His symptoms are all mental. Cognitive function is poor, doesn’t say much and is always hungry.

Is this possible?

wisconsin

[Altostrata]

Hello, @wisconsin

 

What are these symptoms? Is he taking any other drugs? Why is he hungry? How old is he? Is he eating 3 meals a day? Has he adopted a particular diet?

[wisconsin]

He is 24 years old. He doesn't take any drugs or vitamins. He doesn't talk much, except ask what's for dinner.  He was starting to heal 2 1/2 - 3 years ago. It was amazing , I thought he would be better within a month and then all of a sudden he regressed back to almost acute. 

 

He has  severe cognitive impairment, he can't read or write. He is always tired. He stopped grooming, but lets me cut his hair and shave him. He has a laughing tic that comes and goes. This past year he started having rages which seems to have gotten less, but we are now always in fear of his next rage. He seems very defiant and acts like a 10 year old boy. He was an honor student and would  probably be frightened at the type of man he has become. 

 

He use to try hard to get better, now I don't think he try's at all. In the beginning of his wd he had no eating problems and ate all healthy food.  Now he refuses to eat his vegetables and is constantly hungry even though he has three meals a day. He sits around all day doing nothing but watch TV.

 

 I think we did too much in the beginning he did a lot of music listening programs,Neurobiofeedback, lots of vitamins, he was trying to go to college. Maybe all this hindered his healing, but how could it possibly last this long?

 

Everyone seems to be able to talk about their symptoms but not him; he seems to be stuck and in denial that anything is wrong with him.

I am so distraught. Have you ever seen this before?

 

Some improvement are he sleeps through the night. Doesn't have that flat affect any longer, and no akathesia.

[Shep]

9 hours ago, wisconsin said:

He was starting to heal 2 1/2 - 3 years ago. It was amazing , I thought he would be better within a month and then all of a sudden he regressed back to almost acute. 

 

9 hours ago, wisconsin said:

 I think we did too much in the beginning he did a lot of music listening programs,Neurobiofeedback, lots of vitamins, he was trying to go to college.

 

Wisconsin, did anything happen 2.5 - 3 years ago? What were the vitamins? Is he using any street drugs or alcohol? Has he been prescribed any other drugs or medications (such as antibiotics)? 

 

[wisconsin]

Shep, he went to his sibling's college library to study and he just started acting uncomfortable and then he regressed.

2 1/2 years ago he was taking a whole list of vitamins  (see above post for list) but I stopped everything after seeing the response to the post.

He never used street drugs and never drank.

 

[Fromthenetherlands]

Are you sure it is withdrawal? Couldn’t it be a depression or something like that as a reaction to what happened to him? 

[Shep]

8 hours ago, wisconsin said:

Shep, he went to his sibling's college library to study and he just started acting uncomfortable and then he regressed.

2 1/2 years ago he was taking a whole list of vitamins  (see above post for list) but I stopped everything after seeing the response to the post.

He never used street drugs and never drank.

 

 

Thanks for the reminder of the vitamins. I went back and re-read your thread and noticed this from March 2019: 

 

On 3/16/2019 at 10:28 AM, wisconsin said:

It is 4 years since his last dose. Everyone I read about talks about withdrawal being about 2 years. How is this possible? I don't even know how we fell into this trap.   It has been a very long nightmare. About 3 months ago he actually seemed to be getting better and I was so excited. But then something must have triggered and then he regressed to where he was 8 months before.

 

I was thinking maybe it was abruptly removing the vitamins and supplements that caused his current setback, but it looks like he may have been on these same vitamins when he suffered a previous setback. Was he on these vitamins when he had the setback that you referenced in this 2019 post? Could you pinpoint anything that may have caused this setback? 

 

On 3/15/2019 at 10:56 AM, wisconsin said:

he got injured near the TMJ (baseball hit him) and reacted so badly to the medication (effexor).

 

Has he completely healed from this injury? Was it just a jaw injury or did he also suffer a brain injury? 

[wisconsin]

As far a we know he was healed from the injury. He never passed out or complained about it. I Brought him to several doctors. HIs MRI was normal. 

When he saw the psychiatrist for the first time, I never told him about the head injury 4 months before , I didn't think it was related.

I have spoken to some other people and they said withdrawal can go on this long. 

 

[wisconsin]

Fromthenether,  Interesting point but I  would think it is withdrawal because he had all the usual withdrawal symptoms.  We lost him as soon as he took the drug; he became a zombie. 

[Cage190]

Oh my god. I'm seeing myself through this tough story. I'm also 24 years old, male, and I was studying at university (20 I was, by then) when I took sertraline (ISRS). (And I also play the piano)

 

I was also unable to speak or read for about a whole year. But then, a miracle happened. My grandmother came with an a naturopathic complement that save my life (really). If you want, I can send you an a private message with the name of the complex. It really, really saved my life. Without that, I would probably have commited suicide. Before taking the complex, I was suffering an a strong brain impairment, being unable to read, write correctly and other things. After only 10 days of taking this, I recovered about a 50% and I was able to read or speak more fluenty. 

 

I did a mistake of stopping abruptly the drug 4 years ago. I remember, after CT, suffering an a hypomania for two months, and after 2/3 months, the catastrophe appeared. I began suffering akathisia, brutal cognitive impairment, I also developed tics and did strange things. Now, 4 years later, I know that I suffered an a frontal lobe lesion, due to the abrupt interruption. That was the motive I could not speak well, read or also develop tics. But my reason was just the cold turkey interruption. Maybe your case is different. But please, do not lose hope. Having hope is crucial. Maybe your taper was so quick, maybe you needed an a long lasting tapering. 

 

I've been pretty successful to partially treat my lesion with mindfulness and yoga, along with physical exercise. But it didn't work to the point of healing me entirely. What it's healing me was reinstating the drug (at a 1/4 of the last/original dose), and for the moment, just waiting. Every week I'm getting better, and better, and better. By now it's the fourth month since I reinstate the drug, and I've been feeling an a noteworthy improvement. I can feel how, with the reinstation, along with mindfulness, and yoga, my frontal lobe lesion it's getting diminished. 

 

I desire you the best (this post for me is really kind of special for me, I'm seeing myself through your son's history). best wishes 

 

David

[wisconsin]

DavidPT , thank you for your message. After 6 years, I would never reinstate him. The drug was a nightmare from the moment he took it. It was a big mistake.

I am curious what this  naturopathic complex is. You can private message me, if you like with the name of it , but I would be too frightened to try anything.

I have been told only time will heal him, but it sure has been a long time.

 

So glad to hear that you are healing and it is great you are doing yoga and mindfulness. I wish my son would do that. He was doing a lot of good things 3 years ago but I think he just got tired and gave up.  Recently he was playing tennis, but I think it revved him up so he stopped. 

 

Have you gone back to University?

[Cage190]

On 8/4/2021 at 8:36 PM, wisconsin said:

Cage190, thank you for your message. After 6 years, I would never reinstate him. The drug was a nightmare from the moment he took it. It was a big mistake.

I am curious what this  naturopathic complex is. You can private message me, if you like with the name of it , but I would be too frightened to try anything.

I have been told only time will heal him, but it sure has been a long time.

 

So glad to hear that you are healing and it is great you are doing yoga and mindfulness. I wish my son would do that. He was doing a lot of good things 3 years ago but I think he just got tired and gave up.  Recently he was playing tennis, but I think it revved him up so he stopped. 

 

Have you gone back to University?

 

I have to say that your statement is completely rational and logic. But maybe they're other ways: trying another antidepressants, asking for second opinion to an a naturopathic doctor or maybe homeopathy. I took homeopathy for a while and it was really useful. 

 

Mindfulness has helped me a lot, along with yoga. Both have been extremely useful. I'm also going to recommend you an a yoga book through private message. Hope it helps. This book has saved my life, all the explanations are tremendously valuable, and it has insightful explanations about how yoga positions heal brain. 

 

By now I'm not going to university, until I attain at least the 80-90% of my brain's capacity. I'm still suffering mental deficits that do not allow me to get back to university. 

[wisconsin]

All antidepressants are bad . They are just chemical straight jackets.  We will never go down that road again. Going on one again will be just waiting for the other shoe to drop. I appreciate your help but have read enough books to know we made a big mistake .  Only time will heal him.

Good luck to you

[SolarPlexus]

On 8/3/2021 at 6:12 PM, Cage190 said:

Oh my god. I'm seeing myself through this tough story. I'm also 24 years old, male, and I was studying at university (20 I was, by then) when I took sertraline (ISRS). (And I also play the piano)

 

I was also unable to speak or read for about a whole year. But then, a miracle happened. My grandmother came with an a naturopathic complement that save my life (really). If you want, I can send you an a private message with the name of the complex. It really, really saved my life. Without that, I would probably have commited suicide. Before taking the complex, I was suffering an a strong brain impairment, being unable to read, write correctly and other things. After only 10 days of taking this, I recovered about a 50% and I was able to read or speak more fluenty. 

 

I did a mistake of stopping abruptly the drug 4 years ago. I remember, after CT, suffering an a hypomania for two months, and after 2/3 months, the catastrophe appeared. I began suffering akathisia, brutal cognitive impairment, I also developed tics and did strange things. Now, 4 years later, I know that I suffered an a frontal lobe lesion, due to the abrupt interruption. That was the motive I could not speak well, read or also develop tics. But my reason was just the cold turkey interruption. Maybe your case is different. But please, do not lose hope. Having hope is crucial. Maybe your taper was so quick, maybe you needed an a long lasting tapering. 

 

I've been pretty successful to partially treat my lesion with mindfulness and yoga, along with physical exercise. But it didn't work to the point of healing me entirely. What it's healing me was reinstating the drug (at a 1/4 of the last/original dose), and for the moment, just waiting. Every week I'm getting better, and better, and better. By now it's the fourth month since I reinstate the drug, and I've been feeling an a noteworthy improvement. I can feel how, with the reinstation, along with mindfulness, and yoga, my frontal lobe lesion it's getting diminished. 

 

I desire you the best (this post for me is really kind of special for me, I'm seeing myself through your son's history). best wishes 

 

David

Hi there. Don’t know if you still log on. I’m curious what the naturopathic complex? Could you send it to me please? Thanks!