hayduke: coming off olanzapine / Zyprexa

[FireflyFyte]

Glad to hear you are doing well, hayduke. Reading your story has been an inspiration for me and gives me hope that I can get through my own Zyprexa taper.

[hayduke]

Work work work work work, LOL.  It's been a while.  Good doing physically intensive work, I never want to have to deal with offices much ever again.

 

Family dramas trying to push in again, strong boundaries are a must.  Shaking my head at the narcissistic doubling down.  Life is taking good shape in other ways, which is where one might expect narcissistic disruptions and complaints to intrude, from past experience.  Still a grind but pushing on.

 

Cheers

[Venkat]

Pleasing to see you doing so well @hayduke. Hoping you are enjoying your work and settling down well. And hope you get the strength to handle family issues smoothly as well. Best wishes with you.

 

🙏

[Carmie]

18 hours ago, hayduke said:

Work work work work work, LOL.  It's been a while.  Good doing physically intensive work, I never want to have to deal with offices much ever again.

 

Family dramas trying to push in again, strong boundaries are a must.  Shaking my head at the narcissistic doubling down.  Life is taking good shape in other ways, which is where one might expect narcissistic disruptions and complaints to intrude, from past experience.  Still a grind but pushing on.

 

Cheers

Hi Hayduke, 

 

Thanks for coming over to my thread. Good on you for keeping up those boundaries with narcissistic and toxic people. They sure love to trigger people. I’ve done so much research on toxic people the last five years or so that I think I could become a counsellor on the subject😂. I’m sure you’re the same. Want to know about baiting, gaslighting, projection, triangulation, grey rock, no contact, hoovering, red flags, double binds, future faking, love bombing, devaluation, covert n overt narcissism etc etc come to us😁

 

Take care🤗

[BadMedicine]

@hayduke. Sounds like you are doing really well. I am glad you have found a line of work that suits you better and is rewarding and supporting your drug free life.

 

Sorry you are still having family problems but I am sure you have the strength and wisdom to navigate them  in a manner to keep yourself healthy. 
 

 

 

[Carmie]

On 11/17/2022 at 7:02 AM, hayduke said:

Sometimes I wonder if this whole drugging racket was dreamt up by a gang of sadists to deny us the awesome pleasure of eating grapefruit.

 

Doing ok...hope you all are too.

This made me laugh Hayduke, yes, we definitely have to stay away from grapefruit😂😂

[hayduke]

14 hours ago, Carmie said:

This made me laugh Hayduke, yes, we definitely have to stay away from grapefruit😂😂

Oh man.  You will get there <3

[hayduke]

On 1/22/2023 at 8:46 PM, Carmie said:

Want to know about baiting, gaslighting, projection, triangulation, grey rock, no contact, hoovering, red flags, double binds, future faking, love bombing, devaluation, covert n overt narcissism etc etc come to us

[Carmie]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:18 AM, hayduke said:

No newsletter sorry Hayduke 😁😁

[Onmyway]

On 1/21/2023 at 2:59 PM, hayduke said:

Work work work work work, LOL.  It's been a while.  Good doing physically intensive work, I never want to have to deal with offices much ever again.

 

Family dramas trying to push in again, strong boundaries are a must.  Shaking my head at the narcissistic doubling down.  Life is taking good shape in other ways, which is where one might expect narcissistic disruptions and complaints to intrude, from past experience.  Still a grind but pushing on.

 

Cheers

 

Hi @hayduke

This reminded me of an article I read recently. Didn't know about the different boundary injuries. There is a good book on Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend but it's heavily in the Christian literature tradition - this summarizes some of it - https://lissarankin.com/getting-to-know-your-boundary-wounded-parts/

 

You're probably familiar with this but it was new to me and eye opening.

 

I'm sorry you have to deal with narcissists. I bet the majority of us ended up here because we have been 'touched' by them.

 

[hayduke]

6 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I'm sorry you have to deal with narcissists. I bet the majority of us ended up here because we have been 'touched' by them.

Thank you.

The present state of my pet theory is something like:

Traditional tribal structures do not allow much manifestation of dark tetrad style disorders.  For most of human history, social constructs such as money, paperwork, employment and so on did not even exist.  The colonial view is that they were absent due to ignorance.  The more first nations people I talk to I am firmly of the view that this is down to wisdom.

 

First, unlike the Abrahamic nuclear family model thrust on most of us, there is little room for mistreatment of children to be hidden from the community.

 

Second, without capital and unbridled technology, should someone grow up without healthy mirror neurons etc, there will be little or no opportunity for them to isolate themselves from the community and gain financial advantage over others.  The basic equation is that everyone depends on each other, and "escaping" to a position of unaccountable power is not an option.  They would always largely be held in check, their option essentially oblivion.

Edited February 16, 2023 by hayduke

[hayduke]

Making a quick note of supplements I am presently finding helpful around 16 months after zero.

 

Magnesium - still long, regular foot baths in MgCl or Epsom Salts.  I recall intuitively regularly taking oral magnesium for many years before getting put on psych drugs, so I know my body already has a large appetite for it.  Don't know why.

Hemp protein powder - a great alternative or complement to fish oil for Omega-3 etc.
Fish oil - I keep these in the freezer and will often have first thing in the morning.  They do not mix well with alcohol or upset stomach for me.

The below are not general recommendations to the forum.  Simply what I am finding helpful at present.  Every few days this combo seems to help keep darker moods at bay.

NAC, L-Tyrosine, Curcumin, Vitamin E, Methyl Folate, Zinc (thank you @ChessieCat for that excellent suggestion), Lysine (along with heaps of dietary ginger and garlic during pandemic), phosphatidylcholine. 

I have a hunch to add L-Carnitine to that list.

[hayduke]

Seems like the remnants of the disowned natal family taking a final desperate swing at taking control of my life away from them.

 

Feels like the law is onside.  And thankfully, finally, some very troubling behaviours from the agressors thoroughly witnessed.

[hayduke]

Here is one thing that people in a comparable situation may overlook, or not receive in their advice.

 

Double check your emergency and next-of-kin contacts to help ensure that you will not be made vulnerable to abusive relatives.  Make sure you nominate folk you can rely on to do the best by you.

I don't recall explicitly providing my birth family as such in my dealings with australian public health.  It may simply have been a matter of default before I came of age.  Regardless, I can tell you there is such a contact field in their system.

Edited March 15, 2023 by hayduke

[Onmyway]

On 2/16/2023 at 3:14 AM, hayduke said:

Thank you.

The present state of my pet theory is something like:

Traditional tribal structures do not allow much manifestation of dark tetrad style disorders.  For most of human history, social constructs such as money, paperwork, employment and so on did not even exist.  The colonial view is that they were absent due to ignorance.  The more first nations people I talk to I am firmly of the view that this is down to wisdom.

 

First, unlike the Abrahamic nuclear family model thrust on most of us, there is little room for mistreatment of children to be hidden from the community.

 

Second, without capital and unbridled technology, should someone grow up without healthy mirror neurons etc, there will be little or no opportunity for them to isolate themselves from the community and gain financial advantage over others.  The basic equation is that everyone depends on each other, and "escaping" to a position of unaccountable power is not an option.  They would always largely be held in check, their option essentially oblivion.

I must have missed this earlier but today's update prompted a read back - the last month has been quite difficult for me so I am not on top of things these days. But this has made me think

 

I had an interesting discussion about lots of things with some very fun people who are overzealous about a topic and it occurred to me that people zealous about things tend to behave similarly, even when they are zealous about diametrically opposing things. That aside, one of the discussions was whether we could have a society governed by something other than democracy. One of the arguments of the zealous fellow was that yes, not only can we, but we should adjust the mode of governance to the country context at the time and democracy does not protect us from tyranny (Hitler!). One thing led to another and the discussion went into whether all these dark traits are innate in humanity (or a proportion of the people) or whether they are context dependent - i.e. trauma, culture. I suspect both to be true. I suspect that tribal living did protect kids from abuse and allowed them to get through any other trauma like natural disaster in a better adjusted way. I also suspect that abuse and trauma have existed even in those societies, perhaps to a much smaller degree.  

 

While I would like to believe that child abuse happens only behind closed door, that is not true - I have witnessed it and not always spoken up for fear of making things worse for the child as the child is going to be stuck in that situation. Have you ever read Judith Herman's book on trauma. I am often reminded of this quote from here book: 

“It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement, and remembering.” 

 

[It is the most brilliant book on trauma that I have read though very very heavy to read.]

 

Anyway, I am rambling... 

I am amazed how much family can trigger us even as adults, even when we do not depend on them any more. Stay strong and keep trusting your instincts. 

OMW

 

 

 

[hayduke]

3 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I must have missed this earlier but today's update prompted a read back - the last month has been quite difficult for me so I am not on top of things these days. But this has made me think

 

I had an interesting discussion about lots of things with some very fun people who are overzealous about a topic and it occurred to me that people zealous about things tend to behave similarly, even when they are zealous about diametrically opposing things. That aside, one of the discussions was whether we could have a society governed by something other than democracy. One of the arguments of the zealous fellow was that yes, not only can we, but we should adjust the mode of governance to the country context at the time and democracy does not protect us from tyranny (Hitler!). One thing led to another and the discussion went into whether all these dark traits are innate in humanity (or a proportion of the people) or whether they are context dependent - i.e. trauma, culture. I suspect both to be true. I suspect that tribal living did protect kids from abuse and allowed them to get through any other trauma like natural disaster in a better adjusted way. I also suspect that abuse and trauma have existed even in those societies, perhaps to a much smaller degree.  

 

While I would like to believe that child abuse happens only behind closed door, that is not true - I have witnessed it and not always spoken up for fear of making things worse for the child as the child is going to be stuck in that situation. Have you ever read Judith Herman's book on trauma. I am often reminded of this quote from here book: 

“It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement, and remembering.” 

 

[It is the most brilliant book on trauma that I have read though very very heavy to read.]

 

Anyway, I am rambling... 

I am amazed how much family can trigger us even as adults, even when we do not depend on them any more. Stay strong and keep trusting your instincts. 

OMW

 

 

 

 

Cheers O M W 🙂

Can relate, I sure have my hands full at the moment.  Seagulls and the like, if you know that expression.

 

Yeah, there's no way these traits are unknown in tribal, hunter-gatherer or other non-agricultural/industrial societies.  But they have demonstrably been kept in check way better in those settings.  (I can hear various child sacrifices through the ages screaming REALLY!?? to that).  But it's not like our society does much if better - presently here in Australia, we are still aghast at what Brittany Higgins has been put through in broad daylight, and how that atrocity has been more or less upheld by the social systems that ought to be extinguishing such suffering.  It will never do.

 Thank you for the Judith Herman recco, I will add to my tsundoku pile 🙂

[Venkat]

On 3/15/2023 at 4:20 PM, hayduke said:

Seems like the remnants of the disowned natal family taking a final desperate swing at taking control of my life away from them.

 

Feels like the law is onside.  And thankfully, finally, some very troubling behaviours from the agressors thoroughly witnessed.

Hi @hayduke for us as individuals here expecting people  around us to change could be wishful thinking.

Is it possible to tear away or move away from such kind of a negative crowd and live independently and start a new life. It hurts to see you going through all this, after all that we have gone through with these meds. We definitely deserve some peace.

 

[Carmie]

On 3/16/2023 at 4:52 AM, hayduke said:

Here is one thing that people in a comparable situation may overlook, or not receive in their advice.

 

Double check your emergency and next-of-kin contacts to help ensure that you will not be made vulnerable to abusive relatives.  Make sure you nominate folk you can rely on to do the best by you.

I don't recall explicitly providing my birth family as such in my dealings with australian public health.  It may simply have been a matter of default before I came of age.  Regardless, I can tell you there is such a contact field in their system.

That’s so awful that you’re going through such trauma with your abusive relatives Hayduke. Toxic people are everywhere is all I can say, it’s so sad the damage they cause. My heart goes out to you. 
 

Sending hugs your way🤗

[hayduke]

On 3/18/2023 at 11:06 PM, Carmie said:

That’s so awful that you’re going through such trauma with your abusive relatives Hayduke. Toxic people are everywhere is all I can say, it’s so sad the damage they cause. My heart goes out to you. 
 

Sending hugs your way🤗

 

#1 on my Gratitude List today:

 

Carmie 🙂

#2 on my Gratitude List today:

 

Gratitude Lists!

Be well, lovely Carmie.  Thank you.

 

I hope your day is pleasant.

[hayduke]

On 3/17/2023 at 9:32 PM, Venkat said:

Hi @hayduke for us as individuals here expecting people  around us to change could be wishful thinking.

Is it possible to tear away or move away from such kind of a negative crowd and live independently and start a new life. It hurts to see you going through all this, after all that we have gone through with these meds. We definitely deserve some peace.

 

 

To a point.  I did move away early in my thread here.  For some, increasing the degree of isolation can be a full solution.  And sometimes we have to stand our ground.

 

Thank you for your well wishes and support as always, Venkat.  I particularly admire how you have come back from an upset in your early tapering, and are now exhibiting a really exemplary guide to how to come off this major tranquiliser from hell 🙂

Last time I checked, 7.2 billion U.S dollars had been paid out in the aftermath of its prescriptions. 

Someone owes us a beer mate 🙂

Keep it up

[Venkat]

It is a tragedy  that most of the psychiatrists all over the world are believing they are doing good to patients with higher doses of these meds and continuing to be ignorant of the ground reality of these medications. And the small number who believe otherwise, there voices are not heard loud enough. 

 

You have helped many of us get back our lives. Our good will and best wishes always with you. It is amazing how we bond without even knowing others identity.

Take care @hayduke 

🙏

[hayduke]

I have been waking early many nights the last couple of weeks, from my brain dumping cortisol.  Last night at 3am I woke from a nightmare.  My disowned birth mother was making us sit down in the driveway and take this enormously thick paper exam from Google. I leafed through it and saw it was baffling, scattershot, irrational in parts and incredibly difficult.  After a couple of minutes I asked what the exam was for. She said it was for my late brother's memorial website.  

So I said no I’m not doing this, and started tearing it up.  And then she said well that’s your choice but blah blah.

I said I said no. And she started haranguing me and following me around and started shoving me.  And she didn't stop.  When I woke up, I was like bloody hell, at least it was a dream.  Not one I would care to repeat on any plane of existence.

Work and everything today went fine, and this afternoon I am impressed with the simple clarity of the narrative and the lucidity of it.  While far from comprehensive its clearly a key pattern to now throw out like discarded chicken bones.

Cheers

Edited March 27, 2023 by hayduke

[hayduke]

Another great insight from that nightmare was how disconnected I felt from my loves right after I woke up.  Within ten minutes I felt the lights were back on and felt loved-up again.  It was a great illustration of how toxic that disowned family home was, and how healthy it feels to shed any remnants, especially within minutes.

[duffy]

Hey @hayduke

 

I’ve now finished reading through this wonderful thread and it’s been very inspirational for me just starting my tapering journey. Thank you. Hope you are continuing to do well.

 

you posted a link to the pipette you used but the link is now dead, do you know what kind of pipette it was, I ordered a 50ml one off eBay but it turned out to be a much bigger laboratory type one that isn’t suitable. There goes $35 lol

 

 

[hayduke]

5 hours ago, duffy said:

Hey @hayduke

 

I’ve now finished reading through this wonderful thread and it’s been very inspirational for me just starting my tapering journey. Thank you. Hope you are continuing to do well.

 

you posted a link to the pipette you used but the link is now dead, do you know what kind of pipette it was, I ordered a 50ml one off eBay but it turned out to be a much bigger laboratory type one that isn’t suitable. There goes $35 lol

 

 

 

Thank you @duffy, it's been a hell of a ride so far.  I think I still have my old one kicking around. I can post it to you if you want to send me your postal address in a private message.

[duffy]

On 4/11/2023 at 8:27 PM, hayduke said:

 

Thank you @duffy, it's been a hell of a ride so far.  I think I still have my old one kicking around. I can post it to you if you want to send me your postal address in a private message.

Thank you, that is very generous of you. Will send the PM now.

[hayduke]

Learned a new term today.  "Reactive Abuse".  Can rather relate.  Look forward to discussing in therapy.

 

https://liveboldandbloom.com/06/emotional-abuse/reacttive-abuse

https://www.impactforwomen.org.au/news-articles--blogs/reactive-abuse-why-abusers-play-the-victim-and-why-they-get-away-with-it

[hayduke]

Since getting physically active at work and regaining something approaching natural body weight, my energy levels have recovered enormously.  While not filled with excessive nervous energy, now getting up and doing the housework is not a big effort where before it was like crawling out of a morass if I could even do it.

 

I do notice a certain twitchiness still, which I think is dopamine related.  Even 18 months after zero, and my poor body having to digest all that crap laden drug fat, I don't think I've reached homeostasis yet.

 

I have confidence it will settle down within another 12-18 months, but sometimes I feel a bit more...is palsied the right word?  It's all on the mend, but I find my hands more fidgetty than I would like for instance.  None of it is actual impairment, I am fully able to pass my courses and handle situations competently, it just doesn't quite feel like my CNS has equalised yet.

 

I think the hard times thrust on this country wrt removing equitable access to welfare, healthcare, secure housing work and food are massively compounding these stresses, which is the exact opposite to what you want when recovering from complex trauma.  Every time I start to relax and let the healing flow, another blow from disowned family or some other quarter seems to land.  Not enough to give up, but just a repeated sense of hostilities almost as though still in the abusive family home.  It won't kill me but it's certainly not supportive of good health.

 

I wonder if Mark Horowitz might have something to say about longer term withdrawals.  The long term trend seems to be towards improvement, but I feel I am still noticing significant after effects from these druggings.

I've said it before, but there is still no moment where I would consider reinstatement.

[Carmie]

Hey there @hayduke  Thanks for all your lovely messages on my thread. I see you’ve learnt another term: Reactive abuse. I’ve studied toxic and narcissistic behaviours for a number of years now due to things I’ve gone through and I’ve got the vocabulary down pat😁. Good ol’ reactive abuse, hey! The toxic person emotionally abuses someone day in day out until the innocent person finally snaps and lashes back and then they’re made out to be the bad, emotionally abusive one. It’s so very sad. A lot of toxic people then use the reaction of the victim in court cases and win them. 
 

I’m glad that you’re regaining your energy again, that’s wonderful news. Sorry you’re still getting twitchiness, it takes such a very long time to reach homeostasis on these meds. We need a ton of patience. 
 

Have fun making stickers💛

[hayduke]

45 minutes ago, Carmie said:

Hey there @hayduke  Thanks for all your lovely messages on my thread. I see you’ve learnt another term: Reactive abuse. I’ve studied toxic and narcissistic behaviours for a number of years now due to things I’ve gone through and I’ve got the vocabulary down pat😁. Good ol’ reactive abuse, hey! The toxic person emotionally abuses someone day in day out until the innocent person finally snaps and lashes back and then they’re made out to be the bad, emotionally abusive one. It’s so very sad. A lot of toxic people then use the reaction of the victim in court cases and win them. 
 

I’m glad that you’re regaining your energy again, that’s wonderful news. Sorry you’re still getting twitchiness, it takes such a very long time to reach homeostasis on these meds. We need a ton of patience. 
 

Have fun making stickers💛

<3

[hayduke]

"Crazy making" is another beaut term I learnt lately.

 

It sounds like a bit of a throw-away, but there are some real good articles on it over at Psychology Today and other sites.

[hayduke]

A gratitude list.

 

1)  Fresh crisp clean air coming over the mountains from the Antarctic.  Heaven forbid we lose the ice caps.  I took up smoking again lately since the recent nuclear family assault, but that does not devalue my enjoyment of fresh clean air.

 

2)  Beer

3)  More beer

 

4)  Moderation

 

5)  Living somewhere I can see the sky nearly all the time

 

6)  Carmie, Alto, Shep and all the lovely amazing SA Crew.

 

7)  Travelling.  Finding out where you really come from and how others live is what it's all about

 

😎  Tattoos.  Whose body is this, anyway?

 

9)  Swearing

 

10)  The beautiful rural communities I call home

[hayduke]

PTSD typos.  Dropped words.  Wrong homophones.  Etc.  I used to draft perfectly formed sentences on a computer.

Long ago I noticed a friend with combat trauma developed the typos.  Eventually I saw they went away again for him.  Maybe this will just be a phase for me too.

Just an interesting phenomenon to notice briefly.

 

Cheers

[Oaktree1]

Hi Hayduke

 

I don't post that much now but just want to say I can relate to what you went through and are still going through with your natal family and to 'reactive abuse'.  Congrats on getting well away from them - that is the only way - get a place of your own, your own money, shut them out and gray rock if you have to deal with them.   

 

In my own case I eventually got a lawyer and had them send a letter to my general practitioner detailing 'my side of the story' and detailing their treatment and behavior towards me over the years.  As you advised Blanca elsewhere I also got a therapist largely to document my side if I am ever been faced with the possibility of a forced admission or drug order.  Having a lawyer can be necessary unfortunately in these matters when one is dealing with people who are convinced that their intentions are only in your 'best interests' but whose real intentions are malign.  Of course if this was to be relayed to the family members, you would be deemed to be suffering from another psychiatric disorder i.e. paranoia.  This is what happened to me on a previous occasion. 

 

 That is why having employment is so vital or so the lawyer informed me.  It mitigates against you being judged to be suffering from a 'mental illness' and thus eligible for forced treatment.  So all I suppose I am saying is being employed is half the battle to being protected so it is great that you are working.  

 

Oaktree1

[hayduke]

Thank you @Oaktree1 I appreciate your considerate reply.  I couldn't access my assigned shifts on the phone app we used today, so I left a message with our general mgr.

I had a very concerning call from a bothersome GP I have not seen before who was to act as a proxy for one referral from a trusted GP.  I have lodged my complaints with the practice and elsewhere.

Interesting times.  I think we got it covered.  By all means feel free to stay in touch.

[hayduke]

48 hours off the smokes now.  The vape causes a bit of irritation but seems to work well and should mitigate too much damage until I have the space to taper off nicotine again responsibly.  Only found myself reaching for the matches and wondering what else I was looking for so far.  

I enjoy smoking but it was getting too habitual and I am always looking not to overload my health.