Jump to content
hayduke

hayduke: coming off olanzapine / Zyprexa

Recommended Posts

hayduke
7 hours ago, SoggyEconomist said:

Hi @hayduke.

Congrats on your progress tapering the zyprexa.

How are you tapering? Do you you use water dissolving pills?

Best regards

 

Cheers and welcome.

 

I just use the plain tablets to make a suspension as Rhi described.

 

I walk through my daily titration process a few posts up.

 

Slow and steady wins the race here.  Starting with the 10%/month baseline and seeing how you go, you should quickly get a feel for what sort of pace you can handle, and when your body/brain wants to hold.  You can't really go wrong holding whenever anything doesn't seem quite right - just hold, and wait until it does again.  It takes time for your organism to adapt to the previous cut.  I've found Brass Monkey's slide taper to suit me best lately.

Share this post


Link to post
SoggyEconomist

Good morning and thanks for the respone @hayduke.

Yesterday I weighted 10 zyprexa 2.5mg pills on my kitchen scale and they weighted a total of 2gs.

I ordered a precision scale off amazon with 50 * 0.001g. 

Do you think I can cut off pieces of the pills and weight them with enough precision?

Best regards

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke
1 minute ago, SoggyEconomist said:

Good morning and thanks for the respone @hayduke.

Yesterday I weighted 10 zyprexa 2.5mg pills on my kitchen scale and they weighted a total of 2gs.

I ordered a precision scale off amazon with 50 * 0.001g. 

Do you think I can cut off pieces of the pills and weight them with enough precision?

Best regards

 

Some do it that way.  My impression is that titrating the liquid is more accurate.  Since I notice small changes in the amount quite a lot, increasingly so below 5mg, I prefer the finer measurement.  YMMV, as they say.

 

All you need is a syringe (no needle) from the chemist's.  I eventually got a pipette off fleabay, but the technique's the same.

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Last of the set of this four cuts last Monday.  No real problems.  Nice to be relaxing on holidays, I don't want it to stop!

 

Did have some trauma about being hospitalised come up while trying to sleep the other night.  Then when I did sleep I had rather gruesome nightmares on the theme.  Once I was awake in the morning though I felt good and have done since.  I'm taking that as a sign that my brain has been able to access and process that trauma, which is good.

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Holidays been and gone, very restorative.  Then down with the flu or cold or whatever it is going around, ugh.  (Sleep felt feverish first couple of nights and joints ached, but wasn't running a temperature).  Spent a few days in bed with that, starting to get up and do stuff again now.  Trying not to add too much hay fever into the mix, there's pollen everywhere out there at the moment but it's nice at the beach.

 

Started the next set of cuts at 1.30mg last night, slept like a log (didn't want to get up for work!) and feeling ok given the lurgy.  Noticing a distinct change below 1.4mg, I think it was @holly57 who commented on that.  Another layer of voodoo wearing off!  (If you can look past his occasional casual sexism, https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/07/the_most_important_article_on.html offers good insights into how the same molecule's differing affinities for different receptor types mean the effects of the drug differ significantly qualitatively at different quantities of the drug).

 

Noting again the importance of exercise, time with good friends, eating well and getting out in nature to keeping well.

 

Cheers,

Hayduke

Share this post


Link to post
BadMedicine

@hayduke sorry haven't been on here for a while. Sounds like your taper is going really well and you are starting to really reap the benefits of reducing the dose. I love the article you posted. Really helps make sense of the effects of different doses. Especially olanzapine as it hits so many different receptors. I wish you continued success with your taper.

Share this post


Link to post
SoggyEconomist

@hayduke how are you doing?

Have you been having any withdrawal symptoms?

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Update:  Going well enough.  Bumped into a touchy ex the other night and was not rattled at all.  Sleeping quite well.

 

Still more or less tracking the Brass Monkey schedule with a little weighting to have the erstwhile asymptote find zero at some stage.  Finding it the least disruptive model for tapering yet.  I've tried going by feel, the plain 10%/mo and daily microtapers and the slide taper is working better for me than any of those.

 

Due to cross below 1.25mg on monday night which is a good milestone for this round which started at 2.5mg back in Feb.

 

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

@SoggyEconomist yeah they're always going to be part of the taper.  When they flare up, the best thing to do is hold right where you are until everything's stable and you feel ok again.  Same for external stress.

 

That way you can be confident you're dealing with withdrawal symptoms and not a relapse - because once you've held for a week or three and the symptoms abate, it's more than likely it'll be the cut that caused them.  Peter Breggin is worth a read on this. 

 

Because the Brass Monkey method only cuts 2.5% at a time, disruptions are minimal.  I have to hold down a job so this is very welcome.  A 10% cut can be pretty demanding for a week or two or even three.  With the 2.5% cuts I notice each step and after each set of four I usually feel ready for the hold, and after 3 (or maybe 4) weeks of the hold I'm all set for the next round.

 

Maintaining stability lets you navigate your taper thoughtfully and with less discomfort than getting gung-ho or too experimental.  Finding the rate your body can handle is the key and 10%/mo is a great initial guideline.  The safe rates of withdrawal aren't a question of willpower, it's a question of allowing enough time for neuroplasticity to find equilibrium, and not outpacing that.

 

The willpower comes in handy when dealing with the side effects of the process and facing what it takes to heal.  And summoning patience, because anyone on this path will have theirs tried.

 

Look after yourself, eat well, get into nature and walk, have epsom salt baths, see your friends, don't take on stress you don't need to.  Stay grounded.

 

All the best

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

@SoggyEconomist a couple of afterthoughts:

 

- getting enough sleep is really the key to the whole thing.  I wouldn't consider tapering faster than anything that gave me at least 7-9 hrs per night (unless you're in E.R with NMS or something else life threatening)

- you are being given excellent advice in your own thread by people who have just about seen the lot, read and re-read 🙂

 

Cheers,

Hayduke

Share this post


Link to post
SoggyEconomist

I have done 5 0.9 cuts compounded and so far I haven't so noticed anything major. Maybe its the venlafaxine and the nicotine that are raising my olanzapine levels.

I feel like I have more motivating and my anhedonia is not as bad as it was.

I feel tempted to keep cutting at a faster rate.

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Man you just posted in your thread that you were concerned about mania emerging!

 

Get stable, then establish a descent rate of no more than 10%/mo of _one_ drug at a time, and monitor for a month or two.  Then you will be in a good position to decide what a good next adjustment to your cuts is.

 

The best thing about this forum is the hard-won wisdom others share with you, again, re-read the responses in your own thread and be happy to listen.

 

I'm out for the evening, it's getting late.  Take care

Share this post


Link to post
SoggyEconomist

My state of my mind right now is peculiar to say the least.

I talked about my traumas in the appointment and cried a lot. After the appointment I was totally dissociated for the rest of the day and couldn't really feel a thing.

Now I am feeling "gaye" and think the conversation was really productive.

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

@SoggyEconomist I was well-advised to hold during the therapy I had to deal with my trauma.  I did, and it went well.  You can read about that earlier in this thread if you like.  If you are changing drug effects at the same time as unearthing these very difficult feelings, you don't have much of a baseline to refer to.

Share this post


Link to post
BadMedicine
On 11/1/2019 at 10:12 AM, hayduke said:

Thanks @BadMedicine.  How are you getting on?

@hayduke I held at 50mg sertraline, 30mg mirtazapine and 5mg olanzapine for a good 4 and a half months but have just started to reduce the sertraline now. Am very impatient to get off this drug as I think it has only done bad things to me. I developed really bad social anxiety after being put on sertraline and olanzapine together. Is a bit difficult to know whether it was the sertraline or the olanzapine as I started them at the same time but the anxiety got worse the higher in dose I went on the sertraline so I have my suspicions. So due to my impatience I have made a 25% cut. It hasn't been too bad to be honest.a few days where I just wanted to dissolve into tears at the smallest of things but otherwise OK. Much better than when I went from 200 to 50 in the space of 6 weeks! I suffered with bouts of severe suicidal depression for 9 months until i found stability after those cuts. Given some people's stories though think i got off lightly! Will hold for another week or so then make another 25% cut. Will be a while before i can start tapering the olanzapine though i think.

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

@BadMedicine 25% is a large cut, I hope you can get off the sertraline without too much bother.  It doesn't sound like it's doing you much good.  I don't know if the mirtazapine will sort of compensate for that but someone on the forums here is bound to.  Good to hear you're doing ok.

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Update:  now over half way (by mass) through this round of the tapering, at 1.225mg from 2.5g tablet.  Nice to reach this point.

 

Unfortunately plenty of stress at work, not much I can do about that besides look after myself.  Neoliberalism can suck it.  I hope things settle down there soon.

 

Of course this would be the week I've cut down the bulk of my alcohol consumption 🙂  Against a background of being raised to drink (common in Australia), particularly in response to stress, I think I've found the specific trigger that's led me to binge too often.  One of those meditative drifting-off-to-sleep AHHH! moments.  I also realised that in the last few years I've learnt to comfortably manage the situation that caused the trigger, without the despair that induced the bingeing.  Time will tell.

 

I'm not really craving it now, but there is some discomfort - headaches, irritability, having some excess energy at times etc.  Given the fatigue issues I've been having, I'll be interested to see if this evens out. 

 

It's been about six weeks since I quit coffee, and have just had one caffeinated tea a day for the last four weeks.  Herbal teas (I found some Lemon Zinger 🍋🐝🍯🍵) and the occasional decaf fill the gaps.  Enjoying the more relaxed state.

 

Walking on the beach here really helps me settle after the hard days.  It's just plain restorative.  I'm so glad I left the city.

 

So some challenges, but feeling on track.  The qualitative effect I noted below 1.4mg is continuing, like another stage of the lights coming on.  It doesn't feel bad at all, but good to take it slowly and get used to it again.  According to the graph I'd be at around 23% D2RO at this dosage, and while I have no precise data for 5HT2RO, I'm thinking that the serotonin receptors are becoming significantly unblocked about now.

 

The EMDR work has been key to being ok at this stage, I think.  The noise in my head is largely gone.  I can think about my future, which was never the case before, I just drifted from situation to situation for the most part.  I'm way less shy, depression and anxiety are substantially reduced, and much better at looking after myself and relating to others.  Seems no real 'need' for the drugs now (if there ever was 🙂 ).  Just have to keep up my patience and finish the taper slowly.

 

Love and healing to everyone on this road.

 

Cheers,

Hayduke

 

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

2064402417_ScreenShot2019-11-08at3_58_01pm.thumb.png.b454b214bf196acac4f1815545a60a73.png

Share this post


Link to post
SoggyEconomist

@hayduke

How are you doing?

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata

Nice chart. Alcohol consumption seems to be a big factor in nervous system upset while you're going off drugs.

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Thanks Alto.

 

Finding it a bit too energising coming straight off the alcohol - it never helps to be too snappy at work or with friends.  But I seem to be doing ok on a largely reduced amount day to day.  Makes sense to taper here too, it's working for everything else.

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Back from an interstate trip I felt marginal about taking, energy level wise, but has been really good.

 

Was feeling a bit flat after the last cut but on the 3 week plateau now and not feeling bad at all.

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
BadMedicine

Glad your trip away went well and your taper is still going smoothly. Gives me hope that getting off olanzapine when the time comes will be possible although I'm not sure I have the same degree of patience as you!

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke
On 11/23/2019 at 5:33 AM, BadMedicine said:

Glad your trip away went well and your taper is still going smoothly. Gives me hope that getting off olanzapine when the time comes will be possible although I'm not sure I have the same degree of patience as you!

 

Thanks BadMedicine.  I think it'll be possible if you take it slow enough.

 

I don't think patience is the driver in and of itself - it's more that it comes from first hand accepting that my body will only tolerate a certain (<10%/mo) rate of tapering.  Like, it's not too hard to jump across ten ditches each a metre across one at a time, but no amount of willpower is going to have my body jumping a ten metre ditch in one go!

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Update:  Definitely feeling like I'm more in serotonin adjustment land more than dopamine now, at ~1.2mg.

 

Reading van der Kolk on how PTSD-affected people tend to have lower serotonin levels, and how low serotonin levels can make you jumpier, more aggressive and freaked out from unfriendly (or perceived unfriendly) interactions.  Tallies with my awareness of needing not to be too snappy with difficult people at work during the stressful changes there lately.  I am finding a lot that resonates in this book.

 

So it seems I'm increasingly trading the low moods, derealisation etc from the wds at higher doses for being snappier and crankier 🙂

 

A little akathisia has returned after a few beers, but it's been passing fairly quickly when it comes up.

 

Probably a good time to concentrate on doing more yoga again.  Being in nature continues to be a life saver.  The bushfires are stressful though, not being able to go out and exercise when it's smoky, which is over half the time right now.  It never used to be like this here.

 

Sleep is ok, definitely coming more into the 7-8 or maybe 9 hrs / day than the 10-11 at the higher doses.  But finding enough rest in general.

 

Absent-mindedly missed the first cut of the next set of four tonight.  I'd been ambivalent about holding for another week.  Basically feeling fine, but want to minimise hassles at work, and see if this serotonin thing wants to level out at all, so went with the flow and will do a fourth week of this hold.

 

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Glad I've been doing the hold.  Been a tough week, morale at work took a hit with the changes last month, and there is general anxiety and trauma in Australia with the enormous bushfires and extreme drought because most days we can't breathe clean air and we're all worried about the forests and our houses burning down.  It's a national disaster and the public is aghast that the govt is pretending it's not happening and trying to slink away from committing to prompt and correct action on climate change.  So that's enough stress.

 

At a personal level I'm still seeing my own behaviour and thinking matching symptoms of low serotonin which isn't terribly pleasant.  Perhaps it's improving a bit over the week.  Some more trauma has been coming up.  It's good to release it but it makes for a bumpy patch for a while after if you have responsibilities in that time.  I have to be patient with myself and watch what I say at work.  I'm getting cheesed off with things at the moment more quickly than I'm used to.  Getting enough exercise or even just walking is hard when the air is so fouled.

 

I think also that adjusting my alcohol levels caused a bit of a ripple with my GABA.  I know olanzapine affects that pathway as well. 

 

Will go and chat to my friendly psychologist soon.

 

Stay safe all my Aussie compadres

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

After four weeks around 1.20mg I still haven't been feeling quite right.  Irritability, some anxiety, low mood and akathisia being the standouts.

 

Tonight I made a small updose to 1.25mg.  When I was at 2.5mg down from 5mg I had a long hold, which worked very well and I wondered if I might want to repeat that pattern again at 1.25mg.  I don't have it in mind to hold for as long this time, but I'll see how I go.

 

Funny how not long after I'd punched my planned future cuts into the the spreadsheet schedule for <1mg, my body is letting me know it has other plans.  It is the boss of this process, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Confident updosing and holding has been the right move for now.  Had my first good day at work in a month or two.  Felt present and was able to handle potentially difficult interactions calmly, presently and thoughtfully.  Yay 🙂

 

Remarkable what a difference 0.06mg can make.  Kind of scary in a way.  The first couple of days after updosing I felt a bit sleepier and groggier but still a bit grumpy.

We all say we want this to go faster and be over soon, and I'm no different, but on reflection I'm pretty happy with my progress.  A hold here to consolidate that should be a good resting point for a bit.  I wonder if I'll wind up holding again at 0.625 down the road.  I'll see how I feel in a few weeks.

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
BadMedicine

@hayduke sorry you had to updose but glad that it has worked for you and you feel better. You have come a very long way and should be proud of yourself.

Listening to your body is definitely the way forward with this drug withdrawal process even though it is hard to slow things down as it extends the time you have to spend on the drug. I guess we have to play the long game. It's amazing how powerful these drugs are that such a small difference in dose can have such a large effect. I wonder whether you have hit a critical point where receptor occupancy is dramatically altered.

I have also had to hold longer than I would like at 25mg sertraline due to continued emotional instability - probably not surprising as I made some fairly large cuts in relatively short space of time.

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Thanks @BadMedicine

 

Definitely noticed a change in the drug's effects below 1.4mg.  Good to let myself adapt to that transition.

 

I'm feeling ok on the hold and pleased that such a minor adjustment looks to be doing the trick.  At this level many of the worst symptoms of the drug are diminished or absent, and it's nice to take a bit of a break from the challenges of tapering.  Though I am looking forward to having normal metabolism back, olanzapine sure kicks that around.  I feel that my body just wants to stabilise for a while before attempting any more reductions.  It's not a bad spot to sit and ponder for a while, at least till silly season is done.

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Carmie

Hi Hayduke, 

 

Thanks for dropping around to my thread. Yes, the fires here in Australia have been intense. One day I read that the pollution where I live was worse than Beijing. I kept all the windows closed. The smoke really burns your eyes. I don’t know what’s happening at the moment as I don’t really watch tv. I only watch DVDs and YouTube, sometimes something will pop up on YouTube or social media, or I google to find out what’s happening. It’s been okay here so I’m guessing the fires have subsided. 

 

How are you doing with withdrawals and tapering?

 

Sending hugs🤗

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke

Hey @Carmie

 

Doing ok, thanks.  The fires are tough, it's gonna be a hard summer for the nation.  Girl at work's house burnt down 😞  Plus another fire quite close to sis in law.

 

WDs are going alright - have been holding at 1.25mg for a while now and things are settling.  It's good to take a breather from the wd circus though I still look forward to being clear of this wretched compound.  It seems my pattern has been to take a longer hold each time I reach half of the starting dose for that round and so far so good.  Slightly miffed that the pill cutters aren't accurate enough to split 2.5mg tabs in half cleanly but titrating isn't that hard when you do it enough 🙂

 

I got a vitamin B12 shot which has also really helped, I wish the goblin had sent me off for a physical when I first got dragged along there.  Going to get a couple more boosters of that in the next couple of months.  Huge diff.  Also finding MgCl oil spray works great when I can't get a bath.  And the yogurt/hemp seed/chia seed/linseed combo seems to work fine for Omega 3.


Starting to think about the next round of cuts next year.

How are you getting on?

Share this post


Link to post
Miko789
On 12/29/2019 at 3:42 AM, hayduke said:

Hey @Carmie

 

Doing ok, thanks.  The fires are tough, it's gonna be a hard summer for the nation.  Girl at work's house burnt down 😞  Plus another fire quite close to sis in law.

 

 

 

On 12/29/2019 at 3:42 AM, hayduke said:

WDs are going alright - have been holding at 1.25mg for a while now and things are settling.  It's 🙂

I got a vitamin B12 shot which has also really helped, I wish the goblin had sent me off for a physical when I first got dragged along there.  Going to get a couple more boosters of that in the next couple of months.  Huge diff.  Also finding MgCl oil spray works great when I can't get a bath.  And the yogurt/hemp seed/chia seed/linseed combo seems to work fine for Omega 3.


Starting to think about the next round of cuts next year.

 

 

 

 

 


 

 

 

omega 3 are gold

alleviating wd

 

what is |Mgcl ?  Any link to get?

I use epsom salts after work out.

 

what  supp is best for helping  with psychotic symptoms.

b12

what you use for eye bags and circles ?

I tried vit k  but  not satisfied with result.

i see dc tomorrow and othfalmolo today.

trying to review for my exams

take care miko

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
hayduke
33 minutes ago, Miko789 said:

omega 3 are gold

alleviating wd

 

what is |Mgcl ?  Any link to get?

I use epsom salts after work out.

 

what  supp is best for helping  with psychotic symptoms.

b12

what you use for eye bags and circles ?

I tried vit k  but  not satisfied with result.

i see dc tomorrow and othfalmolo today.

trying to review for my exams

take care miko

 

Hi Miko,

 

Magnesium chloride is in some chemists as 'dead sea bath salts' or similar.  You can ask for it at the chemists.  I even found some in a supermarket the other day.  Epsom salts are fine, the MgCl just seems to have a bit more kick.  There are sprays of it as well.

 

I don't love the sound of "psychotic symptoms".  It sounds like you are tapering off the olanzapine way too fast.  Are you still on 2.5mg?  I would want to hold there for a fair bit longer.

 

Take care

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use Privacy Policy