success ☼ Squiggle

[Rhiannon]

You're not letting us down at all! We're proud of you. You're going to get through it.

[Squiggle]

Well, I didn't.  What bastards these drugs are.  I didn't get over the hump this time and have stabilised again on a very low dose.  After another (second only) failed attempt, I have more insight and information and will succeed next time.  Third time lucky!!

[Rhiannon]

I disagree--you're still going to get through it, it's just going to take a little longer than you planned. Three steps forward, sometimes one or two back. You're still going to win. Look how far you've come! 

 

Edit: I don't disagree about what bastards these drugs are, though. That's not a strong enough word. I'm not sure one exists.

[Squiggle]

Hello,

 

Sorry I have been away so long.  I have been really busy just getting on with life.  Since I was lucky enough to finish work nearly three years ago, my life has blossomed in all sorts of interesting directions and I am now doing all manner of stuff that I have wanted to do for years.  So, it's mostly good really.  The only sticking points are still having episodes of anxiety and not being able to finally quit the blasted a/d.  Since the attempt I reported on here last spring, I tried again in the autumn.  Having tried twice to go from a dose (albeit very small indeed) to nothing, I felt I need to try something different.  I decided to follow the advice of CITA (Council for information on tranquilisers and a/ds) where you cut doses on a complicated timetable that lasts at least 12 weeks.  I know that dose dropping is not usually recommended here but as I was on only about 0.2 mg, I thought it worth a go.  The timetables have been worked out with Prof. Healy of Bangor University, who is a noted authority on the issue.  After talking to the lovely people at CITA, I also tried their recommendation of taking daily noni juice - I didn't have much belief in this but was willing to try.  So, from about July to September, I followed the pattern they set out.  It went very well.  Sleep was reduced a bit but never badly and as time went on, I felt better and better - often better after a night when I hadn't taken any.  My husband and I both noticed that I seemed happier, laughed more. 

 

The final dose was in early September.  I didn't feel too good to begin with but then tried another of CITA's recommendations, to take 50 mg 5HTP night and morning.  It may have been psychological but I began to feel better within about 30 mins of taking the first dose.  All went well for about 5 weeks.  Sleep was still less than usual (5-6 hours) and I often needed to do relaxation techniques to help me get off but on the whole, it was pretty good.  I was so pleased.  Then it went pear-shaped.  I don't know exactly what went wrong except that I got a bit stressed about something one evening and my sleep went badly off and my panic rose (not sure which of these causes the other).  One night in desperation, I took a crumb and did sleep.  I rang CITA and they talked to me for ages and I decided to keep going. I upped the 5HTP to 100 mg night and morning.  For another two weeks, it was OK - not brilliant but bearable.  Then, for absolutely no apparant reason, it went really dreadful - just like it had the previous two times.  There was total sleeplessness, panic, choking - all my relaxation techniques could not get near it.  I gave in.  I went back on about 0.8 mg and settled down after a few unpleasant weeks.  The attempt had lasted 12 weeks - so in Samuel Beckett's words, I had "failed better" than before.  But still failed.

 

In the latter days of my attempt, I came across Will Hall and the harm prevention approach to coming off psychiatric drugs.  There are YouTube videos and a free report you can download.  This was a purely accidental discovery but as the Quakers say, it spoke to my condition.  For me at the moment, I need to work more on coping with the issue of sleep disruption (which still happens to me now) when I am not in withdrawal to have a chance of coping with it when I am.  I have asked my doctor for more psychological help to crack this.  In the meantime, I will keep tapering down again and very importantly, keep living.  Three failed attempts have taught me that this is not the most important thing about me.  I want to get off and will try again and again but I can't do it at the expense of everything I have rebuilt in my life - that is more important. 

 

I don't know if my last attempt was made more difficult by menopausal issues.  I am 53, so something should be coming to an end soon.  I had a 78 day cycle at the end of the attempt but since then everything has been normal.  It's possible it affected me. 

 

I do wonder whether it is possible to take 5HTP whilst also taking mirt.  CITA don't advise it but mirt is not an SSRI or SNRI and my doctor said it would be OK.  I have a book that suggests you can take up to 100 mg per day when still taking a/ds as part of the tapering process. Also, that eventually, you can take up to 300 mg per day (when no longer on a/ds).  Does anyone have any experience of this?

 

I did wonder about magnesium too and did try a little.  I don't really want to tank up too much on supplements etc as it feels just like transferring the addition.

 

So, failed again, but failed better.  Will try again and maybe fail even better!!

[dalsaan]

Hi Squiggle,

 

We have some topics on 5htp - http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/656-5-htp-5-hydroxytryptophan-and-tryptophan/

 

I think that is swapping one addiction for another. Personally I would be very reluctant to take wine thing that has an impact on serotonin. The magnesium is fine. I would take that and fish oil. I have also found taurine good to deepen my sleep.

 

I also think that being on a fraction is ok if you are able to get on with your life. It's a psychological stumbling block if you had your mind set on getting off but at the end of the day if I had tried everything I would rather be on a very low dose and living life than off and sick.

 

Having said that I'm sure you will find a way

 

D

[Squiggle]

That's the way I feel about it at the moment.  It is most important to me to live my life, which I can at present.  I'd like to be off but the sacrifice was too great, given the effects it had on me.  So for me, the reduction of harm position is to get as low as possible and stay well.  I hope in the longer term it may be possible to come off completely but I have no definite plans.  I look after every other aspect of my well-being and health and hope that the long-term effects of this tiny dose (if that is how it has to be) are mitigated by that.

 

I may try the magnesium and fish oil, though I do eat a very good diet, with, I think plenty of Omega 3.

 

I'd dearly love to have a beer though!

[Altostrata]

Squiggle, have you tried melatonin rather than 5-HTP?

[Squiggle]

Hello,

 

I don't think that is available in the UK - or at least not without prescription.  The thing is, at present, on a very small dose, I sleep really well most of the time apart from occasional nights (which is a perfectly normal sleep cycle really) but that I get unreasonably disturbed by these.  I guess in a way it is the remembrance of the trauma of sleeplessness in my breakdown which causes me to think the worst.  So, when in withdrawal, sleep problems happen more frequently, I don't handle them well.  This is why I feel I have to get on top of dealing with the feelings I have about sleep when I am not in withdrawal to be able to cope with it when I am.

[Altostrata]

I understand. The setbacks are very distressing. We have no choice but to learn to deal with them.

[Altostrata]

Squiggle's success story is here Squiggle Success at 4th attempt

 

I've added our cheerful "here comes the sun" symbol ☼ to the title of your Intro topic, to show you're recovering.

 

According to our tradition, I'm closing this topic. Please go to Squiggle's Success Story topic to add your congratulations.

[Squiggle]

Tapering zoplicone?

 

Hi,

 

I last posted on here four years ago, when I had managed to get off mirtazapine after four attempts.  I never thought that I would be back again in as much of a pickle as before, if not more so.  After four years of being happy and well, my world fell apart again and I slid to the bottom of the snake: time to start finding the ladder out again, I think. 

To give some background - I was diagnosed with coeliac disease in 2021 and after some initial ups and downs getting used to GF eating, all was going fairly well.  There were one or two stomach problems which I put down to accidental cross contamination in the kitchen (possibly) but on 23rd December, I ate a meal which included quninoa and there followed the most severe gut upset, which in the ensuing weeks, refused to die down.  There was diarrhorea and acid reflux-type symptoms which on 1st January, had me put on Famotidine (H2 blocker) which didn't do much to help.  My sleep began to suffer and I put myself on a low FODMAP diet to see if that would help and consulted a nutritional therapist.  Said therapist did a hugely expensive range of blood, stool and pee tests and opined that it looked like SIBO (small intestinal bacterial overgrowth).  By the time we had reached this point, my sleep had gone into a nosedive and anxiety symptoms had begun to set in.  It got so bad that I reluctantly agreed with my GP to go back on a small dose of mirtazapine to help with sleep.  I spent a couple of nights on 7.5 mg, then upped to 15 mg when 7.5 wasn't helping.  The GP also gave me phenergan to see if this would help with sleep and a back up of diazepam, which I refused (at that point) to take.  In February 2022, I finally had the gastroscopy to confirm my coeliac disease (this had been delayed through Covid) and I elected to have it without midazolam as I was afraid of being dragged back to benzos after my experience 12 years ago. I hoped the gastroscopy would find some reason for my distressing GI symptoms, e.g. hiatus hernia but in the event, all it did was confirm the coeliac disease but say everything else looked fine.  The trauma of the procedure, however, left me so wired that I ended up taking diazepam to sleep the night following.  Further GP advice was to increase mirtazapine to 30 mg, carry on with phenergan and use diazepam only as a last resort.  By this time, the anxiety was getting really bad and the nutritional therapist couldn't give me anything for the possible SIBO as I was on heavy pharmaceuticals.  The chest pains (acid reflux type symptoms) were similar to what I had experienced 12 years ago but the confusing thing is that this time, the gut problems began first rather than the other way about.  12 years ago, I had gone onto 10 mg diazepam at night in order to taper from temazepam and the gut problems had melted away with the cross: I had always assumed this to be interdose withdrawal but now wonder if it was round the clock anxiolytic effect of the larger dose of diazepam.  I became terrified of stepping off my limited diet and after a sorry series of events that I won't rehearse here (unless the moderators want me to), I ended up as a voluntary patient in a mental hospital.

In hospital, I was increased to 45 mg mirtazapine and additionally put on 40 mg x 2 per day Propanolol.  Sleep continued to elude me and as this is one of the biggest problems for me with anxiety, I began to take 7.5 mg zopiclone each night.  In hospital, I had no choice but to step off my very restricted diet and continued to have problems with chest pain (not cardiac related).  I was also encouraged to use diazepam again as and when but in doses of only 2 or 4 (max) per day and did seem to find that once again, it took the edge off my chest pains.  Not a good place to be and not where I want to be.  I was discharged from hospital four weeks ago and my drug regime is as per my signature.  I still have gut problems but a colonoscopy last week concludes that there is no pathology to be seen and it is most likely IBS: I am seeing an IBS specialist next week and hoping for some help there, e.g. gut focused hypnotherapy.

Anyway, it's been a tough time, compounded by my dad dying (funeral is next week).  I'd like to begin to work my way back to real sleep by tapering the zoplicone to begin with.  In the UK now, they are very strict about dishing out z-drugs, only giving you one week's supply at a time, which makes a slow taper difficult.  They seem to have the idea that it is easy to come off it speedily - which I find hard to believe.  With my experience of 12 years ago, I want to follow smooth, slow and steady with all this muck and one at a time.  I guess there are two ways to taper zopiclone - directly and via a diazepam cross.  My own experience of 12 years ago was a cross from temazepam to diazepam.  What is the advice here?  I am still very anxious and having all these horrible gut symptoms so it won't be easy either way.  This forum helped me so much when I was last doing this, I hope you can help me again.  It is devastating to have to do this all over again.

 

Best wishes to you all,

Squiggle

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by ChessieCat
added Intro topic title before merging with intro topic

[Squiggle]

HELP!!  I hope someone out there can give some input on tapering zopiclone (sorry I couldn't spell it first time).  It's so long since I've been on here that I can't remember how it all works but I've still got "success" next to my name when at the moment it is anything but!

 

Best,

Squiggle

[Ariel]

Hi @Squiggle

 

I'm not a mod but just wanted to say hello. Welcome back to SA. 

I'm sorry you're in this situation. My condolences for the loss of your father. My heart goes out to you.

 

As you may remember, the moderators here are all unpaid volunteers. They have a significant workload, as you may imagine, given the prevalence of psychiatric drug-related problems and the dearth of adequate resources to help people properly in the medical/psychiatric system. I trust someone will respond to you when they are able. 

 

In the meantime, you might re-familiarize yourself with some of the excellent help topics here. This will give you a head start for when a mod gets back to you. It'll also give you something to do in case you could use some distraction at the moment. 

 

The Tapering forum contains lots of crucial information about tapering guidelines, as well as their how and why. 

Also Benzo tapering and recovery

 

The Symptoms and self-care forum is a treasure trove of inspiration, encouragement, and wisdom as to what one might be feeling in one's body and how better to be with that experience. 

 

Have you read back through your own thread from the last time you were here? I'm curious about any reflections you may have. What would you say helped you through in the past?

 

On 2/23/2015 at 4:04 PM, Squiggle said:

So, failed again, but failed better.  Will try again and maybe fail even better!!

 

I like this. Originally posted 7 years ago and clearly timeless. I often feel like I can't tell if I'm learning, but this reminds me to say to myself, Well at least you're failing better. 

 

Best of luck to you on your continuous healing journey, Squiggle. 

A.

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, @Squiggle Sorry to hear of these difficulties.

 

By this time, you are an old hand at tapering. See Tips for tapering off Z drugs for sleep (Ambien, Imovane, Sonata, Lunesta, Intermezzo, etc.) 

 

It's possible diazepam could substitute, but you'd have the same problem with diazepam supply, would you not? And if you take it daily or eveh every other day, likelyvyou'd need to taper it later as well.

 

 

[Squiggle]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the replies.  I know I need to be more patient but it doesn't come easily.  I think it would be painful to look back at my own thread at the moment but it's a good idea.

 

I am seeing a gastroenterologist on Tuesday so hope he may have something for me re the gut issue.  I think I have worked out what may be going on.  As a result of the weird stomach upset, my body seems to have flipped once again into full on adrenaline hyperarousal and this causes my muscles both skeletal and smooth (especially gut) to spasm.  This spasming causes me to have horrible pressure sensations in the throat and oesophagus and a sort of acid reflux.  When I had these symptoms 12 years ago, I blamed them on the temazepam withdrawal but I can't do that this time, as they arose months before I started taking anything.  I therefore think the diazepam worked then and helps a bit now (much smaller dose) because of its muscle relaxant effect.  This is why I think it may be worth the risk to make the switch again as it may have a similar effect.  It would help me sleep and indeed live if I had less chest pain.  I'll do some research and see what comes out of Tuesday before making any decisions.

 

Thanks again.

[Ariel]

Hi @Squiggle

I'm sorry you are dealing with so much at the moment. 

 

20 minutes ago, Squiggle said:

I think it would be painful to look back at my own thread at the moment but it's a good idea.

 

You know best. I did not mean to suggest anything that would cause distress. Trust your instincts. You are going through a lot right now and listening to your intuitive wisdom is key. 

 

22 minutes ago, Squiggle said:

I know I need to be more patient but it doesn't come easily. 

 

I hear you. Patience is one of those things that can be hardest to practice at the very time we need it most. You are very brave, and you're stronger than how it might feel to you in the moment. 

Just keep telling yourself: This is temporary. This too shall pass. You don't ever have to be patient/brave/strong/etc. forever-at-a-time, only moment to moment. 

 

Holding space for your experience,

In solidarity and support,

A.