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Nonna: wonder if worth the struggle of tapering

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Nonna

I had hoped I could get off of AD and feel better  without them. Reading some experiences on this site has scared me. I’m experiencing depression and when disappointed yesterday the pain was deeper than seemed reasonable. I wonder if this will pass. Dose change a week ago. Hope it’s temporary. If not considering going back on ADs. My doc does not agree with me trying to go off and I’m afraid he may be right. I wanted to be able to feel more feelings instead of feeling blunted. Afraid of staying depressed and in pain. 

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Gridley

Hello, Nonna, and welcome to SA.  I'm sorry you're feeling bad.

 

We need a little more information, please.  What drug are/were you on, what was your previous dosage, and what was the dose change? Did you stop taking the drug completely and did you stop "cold turkey" - that is, did you just stop taking it, going from your previous dose to zero?  Please put this information in the Drug Signature using the following link:

 

Include drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements in the last 12-24 months. Also include supplements. This will help us give you the most accurate advice we can. 
  • Any drugs and supplements prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years. 
  • Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago) 
  • Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016. 
  • Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses. 
  • A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 
  • This is a direct link to your signature:  Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 We recommend tapering by no more than 10% of current dose every four weeks, and some have to taper more slowly.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

If your dose change was larger than we recommend, it is likely that the depression and other symptoms you're experiencing are withdrawal symptoms caused by a too-large decrease in dosage.  Psychiatrists know very little if anything about the necessity of slow tapering or withdrawal.

 

 
Depression is a common withdrawal symptom.  The following link lists many typical withdrawal symptoms:
 
 
When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur.  
 
These explain it really well:

 

 

   On 8/30/2011 at 2:28 PM,  Rhiannon said: 
When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long.

Once you've completed your signature answering my questions, we'll be in a better position to help you.

 

This is your Introduction topic, where you can ask questions, post updates and connect with other members.

 

 

 

 

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Maca44
27 minutes ago, Nonna said:

I had hoped I could get off of AD and feel better  without them. Reading some experiences on this site has scared me. I’m experiencing depression and when disappointed yesterday the pain was deeper than seemed reasonable. I wonder if this will pass. Dose change a week ago. Hope it’s temporary. If not considering going back on ADs. My doc does not agree with me trying to go off and I’m afraid he may be right. I wanted to be able to feel more feelings instead of feeling blunted. Afraid of staying depressed and in pain. 

For me, I wanted to come off and be drug free living life happy and no anxiety but I am thinking that perhaps for some this is not a realistic option. If your GP does not think it's a good idea then I would question your reasons for quitting as I have mine but whats important for me is being OK with that, being OK that I might need meds to let me live a life that is of a good quality not constantly in fear and anxiety.

 

I'm not decided yet which way I am going to go but which ever way I go I am not going to spend too much time reading over posts here where some poor people are years into quitting/reducing but are still in a bad way, I don't think reading that everyday is going to help. I see some great support here for people so your going to get some good advice but only you can know what you need to do and perhaps need to talk this over with a medical professional so your safe.

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Gridley
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Maca44 said:

For me, I wanted to come off and be drug free living life happy and no anxiety but I am thinking that perhaps for some this is not a realistic option. If your GP does not think it's a good idea then I would question your reasons for quitting as I have mine but whats important for me is being OK with that, being OK that I might need meds to let me live a life that is of a good quality not constantly in fear and anxiety.

 

 

It's entirely up to each individual if they want to stay on psychiatric drugs indefinitely , but it's not recommended here.  These drugs were originally designed for short term use, not a life time.  The drugs often stop working.   But the body continues to require them to maintain "normal function."  When that happens getting off the drug becomes a lot harder.
 
Altostrata, the site's founder,  in a Feb. 19, 2012 post, raised several important points on this subject
 

"Yes, the drugs often stop working. Reaching tolerance is a sign that they've worn out their welcome in your nervous system. 

 

Antidepressants were never intended for long-term use and were never tested for this.

 

Doctors increase the dosage because...well, they don't know what else to do and usually don't grasp tapering. They'll try drug after drug. This is part of the fallacy of treatment with antidepressants.

 

You're right, in this situation people will never get off the drugs. They're on a merry-go-round of drugs, drug reactions, and withdrawal.

 

Evidence is emerging that once you've experienced tolerance, switching among antidepressants leads to "treatment-resistant depression," a state where your nervous system simply does not respond well to drugs or reacts paradoxically. This is not a good state for your nervous system, with neuronal receptors are maximally downregulated. It needs to rest, not to be exposed to more drugs or, heaven forfend, ECT." 

 

Edited by Gridley

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Monty95

If you're stable on a drug, feel good and don't have debilitating side effects I don't know if I would risk coming off. I wanted to stop for idealistic reasons, just because I didn't want to take a drug plus minor side effects like difficulty concentrating. Perhaps an ultra slow taper and increasing the dose if needed would have prevented some of the effects, but I now have PSSD and akathisia and cognitive dysfunction, nausea, apathy, anhedonia etc. I wish I had never started taking antidepressants in the first place but there are serious risks when stopping long term use - I went from being happy, depression/anxiety free/intelligent and healthy with normal sexual and emotional function and some GI issues and difficulty concentrating to mentally and physically disabled as a consequence of this decision. Protracted withdrawal can last years, some effects can last indefinitely. I can't stop moving from the akathisia and my skin is numb, my physical health is deteriorating, muscle and tissue wasting and I can't get out of bed. This decision has destroyed my life. I don't want to scare anyone , some people improve with a slow taper and I stopped far too quickly over two weeks but there are risks and reinstating the drug won't necessarily fix the problems. 

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Longestroadhome

May I encourage you to continue with a slow and steady taper. I was on meds for 11 years and withdrawing for about 9 of those! 

 

I am now med free and am learning to cope with life using various tools such as meditation, re wiring my thoughts, lots of self care. 

 

Antidepressants do not  take the problems away, they merely numb us to a certain extent. I gained a whopping 25kg on Lexapro and basically did not care about anything. It was not the real me. 

 

My issue with anxiety was lifelong. It reached boiling point after the birth of my son. That is when they diagnosed me with Depression and anxiety. The funny thing is that I NEVER suffered with Depression until I started Lexapro. Anxiety was my issue, not Depression, although both are closely linked. 

 

I LIVED  whilst withdrawing from meds. I did roughly 10 percent cuts then held for a long time. I never pushed myself to do things quicker. Slow and steady wins the race. Sometimes stability after a cut took longer but it always came. In the meantime I worked on my thought life, practiced self care. 

 

There is is no medal once you come off meds. No standing ovation. And there is no Nirvana! Basically you go back to how you were pre meds....the part of you before you were diagnosed with your mental illness. For me that means dealing with someone who worries a LOT 😜 it was all that worrying that landed me in the Doctors office. The difference now is that I grab those worrying thoughts and deal with them before they take too much space in my head. It is a daily chore just like washing the dishes. The difference is that it makes me cope with life so much better. 

 

I ended up with type 2 Diabetes after 11 years on meds. I do wonder if the drugs contributed to that, mainly because of the huge weight gain. 

 

Life without meds is better because I know that my body is my own again. I’m not constantly concerned about the effects of meds in my system. I am back to the me that I quite liked prior to meds! I am ocd about housework again 😜😜😜 the drugged me couldn’t give a stuff. I like my new tidy house thank you very much 😍

 

slow and steady. So slow and steady that you enjoy life in the process. Enjoy the journey 🙏🙏

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Monty95
25 minutes ago, Longestroadhome said:

May I encourage you to continue with a slow and steady taper. I was on meds for 11 years and withdrawing for about 9 of those! 

 

I am now med free and am learning to cope with life using various tools such as meditation, re wiring my thoughts, lots of self care. 

 

Antidepressants do not  take the problems away, they merely numb us to a certain extent. I gained a whopping 25kg on Lexapro and basically did not care about anything. It was not the real me. 

 

My issue with anxiety was lifelong. It reached boiling point after the birth of my son. That is when they diagnosed me with Depression and anxiety. The funny thing is that I NEVER suffered with Depression until I started Lexapro. Anxiety was my issue, not Depression, although both are closely linked. 

 

I LIVED  whilst withdrawing from meds. I did roughly 10 percent cuts then held for a long time. I never pushed myself to do things quicker. Slow and steady wins the race. Sometimes stability after a cut took longer but it always came. In the meantime I worked on my thought life, practiced self care. 

 

There is is no medal once you come off meds. No standing ovation. And there is no Nirvana! Basically you go back to how you were pre meds....the part of you before you were diagnosed with your mental illness. For me that means dealing with someone who worries a LOT 😜 it was all that worrying that landed me in the Doctors office. The difference now is that I grab those worrying thoughts and deal with them before they take too much space in my head. It is a daily chore just like washing the dishes. The difference is that it makes me cope with life so much better. 

  

I ended up with type 2 Diabetes after 11 years on meds. I do wonder if the drugs contributed to that, mainly because of the huge weight gain. 

 

Life without meds is better because I know that my body is my own again. I’m not constantly concerned about the effects of meds in my system. I am back to the me that I quite liked prior to meds! I am ocd about housework again 😜😜😜 the drugged me couldn’t give a stuff. I like my new tidy house thank you very much 😍

 

slow and steady. So slow and steady that you enjoy life in the process. Enjoy the journey 🙏🙏

 

 I'm really happy for you that this has been your experience. I think it depends on the individual as to whether it is in their best interests to taper off an antidepressant. While I was on medication I think it numbed me very slightly initially, then the effects wore off and my full range of emotions came back. My anxiety wasn't helped by the medication but I learned to counteract it with changing my thought patterns and environment. I was very engaged with everything, motivated, happy, & had no depression or anxiety in years. Now I have complete emotional numbing and anhedonia, apathy, dp/dr, physical symptoms etc. as an effect of coming off the medication. As well as feelings of depression and terror I have never experienced before in my life. I have always been very emotional and slightly ocd/perfectionist even when taking medication and although I have been anxious in the past I've never experienced any of this before . Akathisia, movement disorders and problems with vision can also result from stopping a medication taken long term. I think it depends on your circumstances and whether your quality of life is such that you are willing to risk the emergence of chronic debilitating symptoms. Tapering slowly is a good strategy as you say as you can stop or increase the dose if the withdrawal effects become too disabling. Although I think PSSD, cognitive impairment and movement disorders emerging after stopping are rare, I just would not wish what I am experiencing on anyone and I think there are others here with similar symptoms who would reconsider their decision to stop the medication if they knew of the long term risks. 

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ChessieCat

It is up to a member to decide whether to stay on their drug, reduce their drug, or taper off completely.

 

SA's goal is to provide information and guidance for members to reduce their drug burden.

 

It is important to note that if you are on a drug for an extended period, the drug may reach tolerance.  When this happens the same dose no longer works the way it did.  A doctor may increase the drug dose (and/or add/change drug which may create issues of withdrawal, start up, side effects, adverse reaction) but you may then end up reaching tolerance at that higher dose and so on.  The big issue is that the brain is physiologically dependent on the drug but the drug isn't working the way it used to but it will still need to be tapered so that you minimise withdrawal symptoms and of course the higher the dose, the longer that will take, and that while the drug isn't working.

 

Tachyphylaxis or As It’s Lovingly Known “Poopout”

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Altostrata

Welcome, Nonna.

 

6 hours ago, Nonna said:

I had hoped I could get off of AD and feel better  without them. Reading some experiences on this site has scared me. I’m experiencing depression and when disappointed yesterday the pain was deeper than seemed reasonable. I wonder if this will pass. Dose change a week ago. Hope it’s temporary. If not considering going back on ADs. My doc does not agree with me trying to go off and I’m afraid he may be right. I wanted to be able to feel more feelings instead of feeling blunted. Afraid of staying depressed and in pain. 

 

Sadly, we cannot predict how you'll do with a taper, which is why we urge people to be very gradual with dosage changes. Many people do fine with tapering. What drugs are you taking?

 

Feeling blunted is definitely a common side effect of #psychiatric drugs. It's up to you to decide whether you want to continue with this or try reducing the dosage to reduce side effects.

 

@Maca44 I think I may have pointed this out to you before -- this site exists because people can't get good tapering advice from their doctors. Telling someone to go back and talk to their doctor about tapering is not a helpful suggestion.

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Maca44
7 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Welcome, Nonna.

 

 

Sadly, we cannot predict how you'll do with a taper, which is why we urge people to be very gradual with dosage changes. Many people do fine with tapering. What drugs are you taking?

 

Feeling blunted is definitely a common side effect of #psychiatric drugs. It's up to you to decide whether you want to continue with this or try reducing the dosage to reduce side effects.

 

@Maca44 I think I may have pointed this out to you before -- this site exists because people can't get good tapering advice from their doctors. Telling someone to go back and talk to their doctor about tapering is not a helpful suggestion.

No you misunderstood me, op is not sure about coming off as gp suggests its not a good idea. I said it might be a good idea to talk to gp regards to staying on the med not coming off and tapering. It would be harmful for some people to come off meds if the time isn't right and dangerous that's why I suggest seeing a medical professional before either tapering via this site or staying on meds for now.

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Longestroadhome

Monty95, forgive me if I came over as patronising, that certainly was not my intention. 

Your drug history is longer and more complicated than mine and I certainly don’t wish to imply that because I withdrew successfully that everybody has the same experience. 

 

I have an inquisitive personality and very early on in the equation I researched the side effects and scientific data related to long term use of these drugs. I found people like Dr Breggin, Dr David Healy, Dr Julia Moncrief and Dr Kelly Brogan and I soaked up their words like a wet sponge. What I read made me determined to come off but it wasn’t an overnight success story. There were many times that, in desperation I would return to my GP begging for help. Their answer was always to increase my dosage or swap medication. I knew in my heart that was not what I needed. 

 

What you you are facing now is heart breaking and honestly I have no words to say. These drugs have destroyed so many lives 😢😢😢

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Nonna

Thank you for all of the replies. I just attached my drug history to my signature.  Hope it helps.

 

I tapered Zoloft over a years time and insisted to taper more gradually than my psychiatrist was advising because I read Dr Breggin, and Dr Kelly Brogan and other info about slow tapering. I had been off of Zoloft for a year, that was 4 months ago. After one month off of Zoloft I tapered Wellbutrin from 300mg to 150mg per his advise.  He advised I taper again in a months time but I waited 2 months before the next taper.  A week ago I went to 100 mg in the morning and 37.5 mg in the evening.

 

I just read a few posts about tapering Welbutrin.  It is too much to process in one sitting. I have a combination of brain fog and aging.  I would like to hear success stories of tapering from Welbutrin. 

 

I wonder if the anxiety and inability to sleep for more than 5 hours is a result of being on Welbutrin without the Zoloft. I'm not sure when the depression intensified so not sure of how to proceed.  I welcomed the return of the ability to feel and cry, but now it is more painful than before.  I would be willing to tough it out if I thought it would have good results. (I'm  in counseling for grief and early childhood abandonment.)

 

I appreciate the support being offered.

 

 

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Altostrata

The evening Wellbutrin might be affecting your sleep. It tends to be stimulating. Are you taking immediate-release Wellbutrin?

 

Please type your signature in text form or provide a link to a Google doc so we don't have to download a file and open it in Microsoft Word.

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Nonna
5 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

The evening Wellbutrin might be affecting your sleep. It tends to be stimulating. Are you taking immediate-release Wellbutrin?

 

Please type your signature in text form or provide a link to a Google doc so we don't have to download a file and open it in Microsoft Word.

 

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Nonna

The evening dose is IR. I have not taken it yet and am experiencing anxiety and nervous energy.  Could this be a result of the taper a week ago, and might it pass?  I'm about to go start jumping on my mini trampoline to get rid of some of this nervous energy. I want some relief.

I will try to concentrate on reposting my info but right now I'm too wired to concentrate!  Thanks!

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ChessieCat

Yes.  That works well.  Thank you.

 

You can create a link by typing in Nonna's drugs or something similar.  Highlight the text and then click on the link icon (to the left of the " at the top of the Reply box) and then paste the link in the top field and click okay.

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Altostrata
10 minutes ago, Nonna said:

The evening dose is IR. I have not taken it yet and am experiencing anxiety and nervous energy.  Could this be a result of the taper a week ago, and might it pass?  I'm about to go start jumping on my mini trampoline to get rid of some of this nervous energy. I want some relief.

I will try to concentrate on reposting my info but right now I'm too wired to concentrate!  Thanks!

 

Does this sensation ramp up after you take the earlier Wellbutrin every day? Anxiety and nervousness are common Wellbutrin side effects.

 

Perhaps you should cut your nighttime dose in half tonight.

 

Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms. You can post them in this topic with a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

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Nonna
5 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

Does this sensation ramp up after you take the earlier Wellbutrin every day? Anxiety and nervousness are common Wellbutrin side effects.

 

Perhaps you should cut your nighttime dose in half tonight.

 

Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms. You can post them in this topic with a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

Thank you for all of the replies. This is a lot to process. I would like to add that the drug I am currently on is Wellbutrin. My doc is a psychiatrist. I originally wanted to go off because I need cataract surgery and my eye doc told me my vision needed to be stable before surgery. Since then I have seen two other eye doctors and they both say not to wait. So I am planning to go ahead with surgery.  

My psychiatrist was supportive because of this. Now that surgery is not the issue he is not supportive. He had told me that Wellbutrin would be easier to taper then the Zoloft that i recently got off of. I tapered Zoloft over a years time and insisted to taper more gradually than he was advising because I read Brogan, Bregen and other info about slow tapering. I realized that he does not know enough about tapering to trust him because after He advised I go from 300 mg Wellbutrin to 150 in a months time, the next time I saw him he said there was new information that advised tapering more slowly.  

I have been off of Zoloft for four months. Three months ago I tapered Wellbutrin from 300 mg to 150 mg. 

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Nonna

Tonight I skipped my evening dose because it was 8 pm and I was afraid it would create more anxiety. What time frame would you recommend me taking the 100 mg and the 37.5 mg?

It has been 9 days since my dose change from 150xl. Would there be any benefit in going back to the 150xl?

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Altostrata

How did you feel after skipping the evening Wellbutrin dose?

 

Did you find that Zoloft made you tired? Is that why Wellbutrin was added? If so, Wellbutrin might always have been stimulating to you.

 

If 100mg + 37.5mg Wellbutrin makes you jumpy, perhaps you'd do better with 18.75mg Wellbutrin in the evening, or none in the evening.

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ChessieCat
1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

If 100mg + 37.5mg Wellbutrin makes you jumpy, perhaps you'd do better with 18.75mg Wellbutrin in the evening, or none in the evening.

 

@Altostrata

 

 I think there may be a mistake in what you said.

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Nonna
On 6/10/2019 at 6:06 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Does this sensation ramp up after you take the earlier Wellbutrin every day? Anxiety and nervousness are common Wellbutrin side effects.

 

Perhaps you should cut your nighttime dose in half tonight.

 

Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms. You can post them in this topic with a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

Thank you for all of the replies. This is a lot to process. I would like to add that the drug I am currently on is Wellbutrin. My doc is a psychiatrist. I originally wanted to go off because I need cataract surgery and my eye doc told me my vision needed to be stable before surgery. Since then I have seen two other eye doctors and they both say not to wait. So I am planning to go ahead with surgery.  

My psychiatrist was supportive because of this. Now that surgery is not the issue he is not supportive. He had told me that Wellbutrin would be easier to taper then the Zoloft that i recently got off of. I tapered Zoloft over a years time and insisted to taper more gradually than he was advising because I read Brogan, Bregen and other info about slow tapering. I realized that he does not know enough about tapering to trust him because after He advised I go from 300 mg Wellbutrin to 150 in a months time, the next time I saw him he said there was new information that advised tapering more slowly.  

I have been off of Zoloft for four months. Three months ago I tapered Wellbutrin from 300 mg to 150 mg. 

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Nonna

I didn’t notice a change after skipping the evening dose and last night I took it at 6pm as I had been doing since my dose change10 days ago. This morning I was awake after only 3hrs of sleep and felt the same tension (almost vibration in my veins). I don’t know how to describe it but I noticed it shortly after I went down on the dose 10 days ago.  I decided to go back up to the 15O lX since it was not happening when I was on that dosage. 

I also took 1/4 of a pill of  Xanax which I rarely do but hoped to be able to get a couple hours sleep before having to get up at 6. 

 

I think my doc prescribed the Wellbutrin almost 15 years ago because I complained about blunted emotions. 

I’m thinking I might be better off going back on some Zoloft because it may have been balancing the Wellbutrin. If I feel balanced I might just stay on that and possibly in the future wean off the Wellbutrin.  I felt comfortable tapering the Zoloft because I had more control over the dosage and didn’t have to take it twice a day. I also took over a year.and didn’t have any side effects.

 

The problems I’ve read about have been frightening!  The reason I wanted to go off was because of ideology and the belief that it was affecting my vision. I was told that it needed to stabilize before I could have cataract surgery. Since then two new eye docs disagree and I need to get on with it so that I can drive at night. The idea of feeling more feelings was a plus. 

 

I live alone and have very little support.  I don’t want to make my life harder. 

 

I appreciate the support. 

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Altostrata

Yes, Wellbutrin can be stimulating and Zoloft might have masked that somehow.

 

23 hours ago, Altostrata said:

If 100mg + 37.5mg Wellbutrin makes you jumpy, perhaps you'd do better with 18.75mg Wellbutrin in the evening, or none in the evening.

 

If you felt okay on 100mg Wellbutrin, why not stay on 100mg for a bit, then taper off that?

 

If you went off Zoloft, why do you want to go back on? Is it absolutely necessary for you to take a psychiatric drug? The fewer drugs you take, the better.

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Nonna

I have not felt well since tapering from 300 mg Welbutrin in March. I may have tapered too quickly, trusting the docs advice who told me it would be easier than my taper from Zoloft. Think might be easier to taper from Wellbutrin if on Zoloft. In light of the horror stories I’ve read on this sight, I’m not sure it’s worth the risks. 

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Maca44

It's always good to get some good info online but reading too many horror stories is not going to help you it will just make you anxious. 

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