Amanda167

[Shep]

14 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

2pm til 6.30pm. Drove to visit my sister then my mum. 40 min journey each way.

7pm. 4mg quetiapine and 10mg Paxil. Ok mood.

 

How did you cope with such a long journey? How were your symptoms along the way?

 

That's great that you were able to do this and feel good.

 

14 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

Do you think I can start reducing the quetiapine yet? I really want to start weaning off these added meds from May?

 

Will you be able to sleep if you remove the quetiapine? That's my biggest concern. We discussed coming off the Paxil first earlier in your thread for reasons listed here:

 

Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

Please take a careful read of the first post in that thread and post your thoughts.

[Amanda167]

On 9/9/2019 at 1:07 PM, Shep said:

How did you cope with such a long journey? How were your symptoms along the way?

Hi Shep

 

I was fine on the way there and I needed to pass time. I don't like being in the house alone much, feeling pretty low although symptoms are far more bearable lately. I'm just so tired.

On the way home, the traffic made me a little anxious so I diverted off and took the longer route. This has always made me anxious though so nothing new there x

On 9/9/2019 at 1:07 PM, Shep said:

Will you be able to sleep if you remove the quetiapine? That's my biggest concern. We discussed coming off the Paxil first earlier in your thread for reasons listed here:

I have the zopiclone for sleep and I'm sleeping with no problems. I'm doubtful that 4mg of quetiapine is doing much if 25mg is the minimum dose... I'd really like off of all the added meds 1st so I can tackle the Paxil as that's the med I've been on 22 years.

All other meds were added in May and I don'twish for any of them to stay, even the zopiclone. I'd really like to get off the valium and Quetiapine as quickly as possible as they are at low doses and doubtful they are even doing much to help. I just want to get back to being on the Paxil 10mg then taper that at a slowly controlled pace.

What do you think?

I'd love to stop them all right now but know that's not doable.

I'm still struggling with bad head and low moods. The other meds I feel have only hindered me, not helped. Valium is known to cause depression and I can't help but wonder if it should be got rid of.

I just don't know which way to move... just want my old self back.. I'm sure you can relate x

[Amanda167]

On 7/23/2019 at 10:57 PM, Shep said:

) After stabilizing on the new schedule, taper off quetiapine.

 

3) Taper off zopiclone.

 

Please post your thoughts. Let's get a game plan set up before you start making changes. 

Hi Shep

 

Found this and was hoping to stick to this plan.

 

I can then hold on the 1mg of valium when I taper the Paxil... do you feel that would help at such a low dose?

 

I have so much hate for these meds that I realise how I refuse to believe that any of them may be helping me... I'll try and be more open-minded and listen more.

 

I just got so afraid of all of them which probably made things worse for me.

 

What would you say was my best option??

 

My doctor says get off the quetiapine 1st but my doctor literally follows me, not the other way around.  He's pretty good and listens to me unlike most x

[Shep]

20 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

Found this and was hoping to stick to this plan.

 

Thanks for finding that, Amanda. I had forgotten we were going back and forth with what to do next.

 

20 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

I can then hold on the 1mg of valium when I taper the Paxil... do you feel that would help at such a low dose?

 

I have so much hate for these meds that I realise how I refuse to believe that any of them may be helping me... I'll try and be more open-minded and listen more.

 

I just got so afraid of all of them which probably made things worse for me.

 

What would you say was my best option??

 

You're keeping an open mind. No worries on that.

 

I just want to mention something that's key here - even these low doses are important. Please see:

 

Why taper? SERT transporter occupancy studies show importance of gradual change in plasma concentration

 

That thread is specific to SSRIs, but we also know that some people struggle at the very end of the taper with these low doses on other types of psych drugs. 

 

I also want to calm down the fear of these drugs. The dose you're on for quietiapine is like taking a very low dose of an antihistamine. Although quietiapine is an antipsychotic, it only acts on dopamine in about 150 mg or higher. With doses lower than this, it's acting on histamine. So you're not getting the horrible side effects that this drug can cause at the higher doses.

 

21 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

All other meds were added in May and I don'twish for any of them to stay, even the zopiclone. I'd really like to get off the valium and Quetiapine as quickly as possible as they are at low doses and doubtful they are even doing much to help.

 

You can become dependent on a psych drug within a month, so the glue is set, so to speak - you are likely dependent on the newer drugs. 

 

Even if they're not doing much to help, removing them too soon could cause you to stop sleeping. I'm going to post a pic that I like to use to demonstrate this. 

 

Think of this as a Jenga game: 

 

 

If you pull out the benzo and/or the quetiapine, it could collapse your already destabilized nervous system. 

 

So from this perspective, keeping the benzo and quetiapine in place is helping, even if it's not doing much as far as working. But then again, it depends on your definition of "working". By holding it steady, you're letting these drugs do their job holding up your nervous system, so in that respect, they are working. 

 

So I'm not saying you shouldn't remove the quetiapine next, but I would urge caution and to only do a very small micro-taper if you decide to go that route.

 

I know we've been back and forth on this, but I'm hesitant to advise removing the drugs that may be helping you sleep by keeping the Jenga puzzle in one piece. 

 

I think you've made remarkable progress over the past few weeks - you've gone from not being able to take your dog out for a walk to being able to drive 40 minutes away and back and coping very well along the journey. 

 

You may want to go into a long hold for several weeks and really get a solid baseline before tapering any other drug. Just a thought because if you re-read your thread, I think you'll see this progress. 

 

And don't worry about developing more dependency to the newer drugs. The dependency is set. The goal is to strategically remove the drugs so you keep as much functionality as possible. 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Shep
fixed typo

[Amanda167]

On 9/10/2019 at 11:46 AM, Shep said:

You may want to go into a long hold for several weeks and really get a solid baseline before tapering any other drug. Just a thought because if you re-read your thread, I think you'll see this progress. 

Thanks so much Shep.

 

I really appreciate your input and your time.

 

I made a list of things that have improved and read it everytime I feel stuck just to remind myself. 

I'm just constantly crying, even when I'm out, it's like I have no control over my sadness. I feel lost and empty most of the time but I think we need to cry to release the suppressed emotions from all the trauma going through this all... what we lose, etc. It's so difficult to even remember feeling good or even remembering how I used to fill my time as everything I do now is mostly forced. Plus I ended a 7 year relationship at the beginning of all of this so now I have to get used to this new beginning also.

 

And yes, whilst I want to carry on reducing (due to sheer impatience) Perhaps I should continue to hold for a while as you suggested.

 

I think going forward,  I would like to remove the quetiapine then come to a decision with your guidance on what to do next.

 

I will keep posting my diary and keep hoping I'm on my way to recovery xx

[Amanda167]

On 9/10/2019 at 11:46 AM, Shep said:

I think you've made remarkable progress over the past few weeks - you've gone from not being able to take your dog out for a walk to being able to drive 40 minutes away and back and coping very well along the journey. 

 

Thank you for this... I need the reminder that in fact, I am moving forward x

[Amanda167]

Tuesday 10th Sept Diary

 

9am. .375mg zoplicone 

9.39am. .40 valium

Awoke to usual head tension, upset stomach and low mood.

10am. Breakfast

12.30pm. Showered. Low mood.

2 40pm. Drove to pick my Son up and take dog to park. Crying all through the walk and on way home. Feeling very empty/depressed.

4.15pm. Back home. Made fresh dips for tortillas 

6.30pm. Dinner. Slight improved mood.

7pm. 4mg quetiapine and 10mg Paxil 

9pm. .50 valium.  Low mood.

10pm. 340mg zopiclone.  Low mood, went up to bed.

Played few games on phone. Very tired.

 

PS. I don't write all my food in but have been eating like a horse the past month. Put on a stone of what I lost 😊 

[Shep]

14 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

PS. I don't write all my food in but have been eating like a horse the past month. Put on a stone of what I lost 😊 

 

Another example of your progress. 

 

18 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

I think going forward,  I would like to remove the quetiapine then come to a decision with your guidance on what to do next.

 

I would advise doing a micro-taper, just so you can keep tabs on your sleep and do a quick course-correction should sleep get worse. 

[Amanda167]

On 9/11/2019 at 1:12 PM, Shep said:

would advise doing a micro-taper, just so you can keep tabs on your sleep and do a quick course-correction should sleep get worse. 

Hi Shep

 

Yes, I'd go very slow too.

 

Feeling so bad lately.

 

Just to Let you know, I'm falling asleep very quickly as so tired, I may have to bring the zopiclone to a little earlier.  It doesn't matter how much sleep I get, I'm really tired.

 

I suspect this is normal??? Adrenal fatigue maybe? I'm really struggling. I have the very bad head still constant, burning in chest and throat constant, very low mood, rage, tearfulness,  burning eyes, neck pain radiating down both arms. My eyes are dry and swollen from crying I guess. I feel about 50 stone and I'm still underweight. Please tell me this goes, I've really had enough. I pish myself out to do what's needed but it's forced. Will I ever wake up and actually want to go out again???

I'm so angry, tired and fed up. No windows at all, just constant horror. I can't laugh, smile or feel love for anyone or anything and that makes me cry.. tired of crying,  tired of feeling like this. 

 

Sorry, needed to vent. I have no-one to talk to. I don't even think I want to be around anyone but I'm bored of sitting around feeling like crap 😭😭

 

My muscle tone is going and I feel like I'm 100 years old, so not like me at all.

 

Is this still withdrawal? 

 

Crying again. So tired!!! Only holding on for my Son at this point. Forgotten what it feels like to be myself, seems so long ago.

 

Sorry, just need to vent 

 

Diary to follow x

[Amanda167]

Thurs 12th Sept diary

 

9.35am. .375 zoplicone LATE

9.50am. .40 valium LATE

Missed alarm

 

Awoke at 6am, 7am, napping, got up at 10am.

 

Bad head, super low mood, SI, pain/discomfort in chest and throat too. Burning in esophagus. Diarreah. Painful eyes, teeth,  neck, tops of arms... everything aches.

 

11.30am. Went to do errands and walk dog. Back 2.15pm.

 

2.30pm. Ate lunch. Symptoms same 

 

6.30pm. Dinner.  Symptoms same still 

 

7pm. 4mg quetiapine and 10mg Paxil.  Done housework upstairs in between sobbing fits.

 

9pm. .50 valium 

 

9.30pm. 340mg zopiclone ( going to take earlier as super tired ) 

 

Very low mood... Struggling to keep faith. 

[Shep]

On 9/10/2019 at 5:19 PM, Amanda167 said:

9pm. .50 valium.  Low mood.

10pm. 340mg zopiclone.  Low mood, went up to bed.

 

13 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

9pm. .50 valium 

 

9.30pm. 340mg zopiclone ( going to take earlier as super tired ) 

 

13 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

Just to Let you know, I'm falling asleep very quickly as so tired, I may have to bring the zopiclone to a little earlier.  It doesn't matter how much sleep I get, I'm really tired.

 

I'm concerned you're taking the zopiclone too close to the valium now and you may have a paradoxical reaction due to too many brakes (i.e. taking too many sedatives at once).

 

What do you think about making a small 3 or 5% reduction from the quetiapine? You mentioned wanting to reduce that one next and it would get rid of a brake.

[Amanda167]

2 hours ago, Shep said:

concerned you're taking the zopiclone too close to the valium now and you may have a paradoxical reaction due to too many brakes (i.e. taking too many sedatives at once).

 

What do you think about making a small 3 or 5% reduction from the quetiapine? You mentioned wanting to reduce that one next and it would get rid of a brake.

Hi Shep

 

I could move the valium to 8.30pm. What do you think??

 

And yes, I would like to start to taper the quetiapine. I have a question.... I have the liquid quetiapine as you know and I've worked out the dosages at 5% reduction on a spreadsheet. How do I get to such dosages? Like for example, I see people saying I'm on 1.64gl now and reducing to 1.57mg for example. I have the 1ml syringe and 4mg is only 0.20 on the syringe so realistically, I go only go down 0.01ml at lowest drop.. I don't get how people say I'm on 1.64mg for example.  How is it possible to get such a measurement??

For example... 4mg is 0.2ml, a 5% reduction would equate to 0.19ml

But when I get to 2mg which equates to 0.1ml, 5% is a 0.005 drop, I wouldn't be able to make that drop accurately because of how small it is on the syringe.

This is what confuses me. The minimum I can drop accurately is 0.01ml at a time so the drops would increase in percentage as I can down.

I hope I'm explaining it ok.

Do I have to switch to another method or something to keep the drops at 5%??? 

Am I missing something? 

 

I appreciate your response on this as baffles me how others can make such accurate drops.

 

Amanda xx

[Amanda167]

Friday 13th Sept diary.

 

9am. .375 zoplicone 

9.30. .40 valium 

Stayed awake, feeling fed up, low, head tension, bad stomach. No motivation at all.

10am. Breakfast 

11.30 to 1.30pm. Doing housework.

3pm. Shower. Still feel bad.  SI thoughts.

4pm. My brother came for half hour. Cheered up from a 1 to a 3.

5.45pm. Dinner

7pm. 3.8mg quetiapine from 4mg.

7pm. 10mg Paxil .Still low , head getting worse. Took pain killers. Tearful.

7.30pm. Walked dog then to Sainsbury's 

8.45pm. .40 valium 

9.30pm. 340mg zopiclone 

11pm. Went to bed.

 

Low moods and bad head are main symptoms. X

[Shep]

16 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

Took pain killers.

 

What drug did you take? Please post the name(s) of any additional drugs in your journal, including over-the-counter drugs.

 

Is this something you regularly take or just this one time?

 

On 9/13/2019 at 8:57 AM, Amanda167 said:

I could move the valium to 8.30pm. What do you think??

 

You will be pushing it closer to when you take Paxil and quetiapine. You may want to move the Paxil and quetiapine to 6 pm and adjust your others so that that the Valium is at 8 pm and the zopiclone is at 9 pm.

 

But if you do this, please do not start reducing the quetiapine. I would give yourself a week or so to acclimate to this kind of change before making a reduction.

 

On 9/13/2019 at 8:57 AM, Amanda167 said:

I have the liquid quetiapine as you know and I've worked out the dosages at 5% reduction on a spreadsheet. How do I get to such dosages? Like for example, I see people saying I'm on 1.64gl now and reducing to 1.57mg for example. I have the 1ml syringe and 4mg is only 0.20 on the syringe so realistically, I go only go down 0.01ml at lowest drop.. I don't get how people say I'm on 1.64mg for example.  How is it possible to get such a measurement??

For example... 4mg is 0.2ml, a 5% reduction would equate to 0.19ml

But when I get to 2mg which equates to 0.1ml, 5% is a 0.005 drop, I wouldn't be able to make that drop accurately because of how small it is on the syringe.

This is what confuses me. The minimum I can drop accurately is 0.01ml at a time so the drops would increase in percentage as I can down.

 

You mentioned being on prescription liquid. What is the ratio of mg to mL? It will have this information on the package or bottle or you can call your pharmacist to get it.

 

The best way to taper a concentrated liquid prescription of any drug is to dilute it in water. This will allow you to make very small reductions.

 

Once you list the ratio, we can help you figure out the amount of liquid to use for your taper.

 

But again, please don't start tapering until you make the timing changes first.

[Amanda167]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

You mentioned being on prescription liquid. What is the ratio of mg to mL? It will have this information on the package or bottle or you can call your pharmacist to get it.

Hi Shep

 

Thanks for getting back 

5mg is 0.25ml

4mg is 0.20ml

So 1mg equals 0.05ml. 

A high ratio. 

I thought about the water titration after, think I will need to do that after hitting 3mg.

 

1 hour ago, Shep said:

You will be pushing it closer to when you take Paxil and quetiapine. You may want to move the Paxil and quetiapine to 6 pm and adjust your others so that that the Valium is at 8 pm and the zopiclone is at 9 pm.

 

But if you do this, please do not start reducing the quetiapine. I would give yourself a week or so to acclimate to this kind of change before making a reduction.

 

I will do this over this week.

I already reduced the quetiapine from last night to 0.19ml (3.8mg)

 

Should I go back until I've resheduled times?

 

Also, I'm finding getting the .375mg of zopiclone difficult to dry cut accurately.. should I crush and weigh?? Not sure if it can be made into a liquid but I'm dreading the taste as it's vile even swallowing the tablet.

 

1 hour ago, Shep said:

What drug did you take? Please post the name(s) of any additional drugs in your journal, including over-the-counter drugs.

 

Is this something you regularly take or just this one time?

I took Ibuprofen. I rarely ever take any OTC medicines as equally hate them. I'm just fed up of the head pain 24/7.

 

I feel so bad and I don'tknow if the valium brand change plays a part.

I asked the doctor and he's says I have to request the same brand via the pharmacist. I can't find out which is the main brand and which is generic. Feeling hopeless. Cannot stop crying over missing out on life. 

 

Honestly, I'm so trying to stay positive. Every night, I say tomorrow is going to be better and I honestly believe it too... then I wake up to the same. So scared to be the one that doesn't heal. 

 

Is this normal??? My eyes are permanently swollen, painful and dry 🙄😰

 

Never thought I'd pray for colder weather but the Sun seems to bright x

[Shep]

On 9/14/2019 at 12:07 PM, Amanda167 said:

I already reduced the quetiapine from last night to 0.19ml (3.8mg)

 

Should I go back until I've resheduled times?

 

I would stick with the quetiapine reduction since you've already reduced it. If you were to go back up AND make a scheduling change, that's still more than one change at a time. 

 

Are you able to keep taking your other drugs on time? You may be okay making more than one change at a time, but it does complicate things, especially since your nervous system is so sensitized right now. Please see:

 

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

On 9/14/2019 at 12:07 PM, Amanda167 said:

5mg is 0.25ml

4mg is 0.20ml

So 1mg equals 0.05ml. 

A high ratio. 

I thought about the water titration after, think I will need to do that after hitting 3mg.

 

Here is some information that will be helpful:

 

How to make a liquid from tablets or capsules

 

Questions and answers about liquid medications

 

On 9/14/2019 at 12:07 PM, Amanda167 said:

Also, I'm finding getting the .375mg of zopiclone difficult to dry cut accurately.. should I crush and weigh?? Not sure if it can be made into a liquid but I'm dreading the taste as it's vile even swallowing the tablet.

 

Yes, we do have members using water to liquid taper zopiclone. Or you could use a scale. Whichever way is most comfortable for you. 

 

Using a digital scale to measure doses

 

Please post if you have questions on either the liquid or the scale. 

 

 

 

[Amanda167]

13 hours ago, Shep said:

Are you able to keep taking your other drugs on time? You may be okay making more than one change at a time, but it does complicate things, especially since your nervous system is so sensitized right now. Please see:

Hi Shep

 

Hope you're well x

13 hours ago, Shep said:

Yes, we do have members using water to liquid taper zopiclone. Or you could use a scale. Whichever way is most comfortable

I prefer to dry cut but I question the scales at low doseages at times, they can fluctuate and it makes me wonder how accurate they are.

 

I'm just going to do the past 2 days diary... so sorry. Struggling a little.

Been making a point of forcing myself out in the day even if I'm in tears. Started going on long walks where I run up 180 steps daily. My brain is the worst symptom, everyday I feel like my brain has a tight band squeezing my brain. My head and chest feel weak. If I stay indoors, I just cry and am very agitated so I figured,  may as well force myself outdoors regardless, there's nothing worse than being stuck at home. 

Will I ever wake up and not have this fuzzy uncomfortable squeezing in my brain??? Is this a common symptom? I just want faith it will go 🙄 x

So sorry not been entering diary, been crying alot and feeling real down.

 

Yes, I manage pretty well keeping times but sometimes I'm late by 30 mins, I should set alarms for the evenings. Makes it difficult at times as I go out mainly in the evening so sometimes have to weigh pills and take with me. On occasions I've got back later than expected and this can mess me up a little.

[Amanda167]

Sat 14th Sept Diary 

 

9.10am. .375 zoplicone 

9.30am. .40 valium 

Awoke to pains in neck and tops of arms. Usual head, chest discomfort,  throat burning and low mood.

 

1pm. Food. Sat in garden.

 

4pm. Ironing. Crying lots. All symptoms remain.

 

6pm. Bath. Got super hot and sick. My boy helped me to lay down. Was crying and so was my boy saying he wished I'd never tried to stop this medication as it's breaking his heart. Crying even more 😭 So angry!!

 

 

6.45pm. 1.9ml quetiapine and 10mg Paxil

 

8.15pm. .50 valium 

8.30pm. Walked to supermarket with my boy.

 

9.15pm. 340mg zopiclone 

9.45pm. Sat downstairs for a little while as my brother was here.

11.30pm. Went to bed. I'm sad.

 

[Amanda167]

Sun 15th Sept Diary 

 

9am. .375 zoplicone 

9.30am. .40 valium 

Awoke to same symptoms as everyday. Sick of it... so irritated and fed up.

 

11.30am. Made food, crying hopelessly again. Beautiful day and feel so bad for my Son being stuck with me. Heartbroken.

 

12.45pm to 3pm. Went for a long walk with my boy in the local woods. Felt tearful but gratitude for my time with him.

3pm. Sat in my garden.

5.30pm. Had dinner which my Son and I made together.

 

6.30pm. 1.9ml quetiapine and 10mg Paxil

6.45pm. Shower

7.15pm. Took dog out. 

 

8.25pm. .50 valium 

 

9.15pm. 340mg zopiclone - watching movie on my phone.

 

My mood lifted a little in the evening. Was happy to spend the day with my boy. 

[Amanda167]

Mon 16th Sept Diary 

 

9am. .375 zoplicone 

9.30. .40 valium 

Awoke to same symptoms as usual.

11am. Breakfast 

12pm. Done floor exercises 

12.25 to 1.30pm. Walked to post office then to the woods, ran up my 180 steps.

1.45pm. Chatted to friends on social media... crying, laughing. Weird feeling, I'm sad but can laugh through it.

5.30pm. Dinner

6.45pm. Walked dog then to pets at home. 

8.10 home.  8.15pm. .50 valium 

9.15pm 340mg zopiclone 

Watched a movie. Felt a little better in evening. 

[Shep]

20 hours ago, Amanda167 said:

I prefer to dry cut but I question the scales at low doseages at times, they can fluctuate and it makes me wonder how accurate they are.

 

What kind of scale are you using? Did it come with extra weights? The extra weights will help with accuracy. 

 

Please see this post by Alto for more tips on using a scale: 

 

Using a digital scale - more tips

 

 

[Amanda167]

On 9/17/2019 at 11:11 AM, Shep said:

What kind of scale are you using? Did it come with extra weights? The extra weights will help with accuracy. 

Hi Shep

 

I discovered how to use the weights now thanks 

 

Posting diary x

[Amanda167]

Tues 17th Sept Diary 

 

9am. O.375mg zopiclone 

9.30am. 0.40 valium 

Symptoms slightly less. Low key Anxiety and agitation 

11am. Breakfast

12pm. Bath

1pm. Went for my daily walk then walked to supermarket,  back at 2.50pm. 

4pm. Housework... low mood.

5.30pm. Dinner. Still low mood.

6pm. 1.9 quetiapine and 10mg Paxil 

Stayed downstairs watching TV, low mood and very tired.

8pm. .50 valium 

9pm. 340mg zopiclone 

Went to bed early

 

Wed 19th Sept Diary 

 

9am. .375 zoplicone 

9.30am. 0.40 valium 

Head, chest and throat alot improved. Low mood anxiety, agitation present.

11am. Breakfast

12.30pm. Took dog to the park. Low mood.

2pm. Food

2.30pm - 8.30pm. Housework. I know!!! I'm always cleaning.

6pm. 1.9mg quetiapine and 10mg Paxil. Low mood, tearful 

6.30pm. Dinner

8pm. .50mg valium 

9.15pm. 340mg zopiclone 

Head eases alot but low mood is consistent. Been very active all day.

 

[Anthony75]

@Amanda167

 

Hi Amanda,

I just wanted to say hi and hope you’re doing great. Best wishes, Anthony