Zans: tapering off 10mg Brintellix - 4 years?

[Zans]

Hey all,

 

30 years old male who just last summer enjoyed stellar health and wellbeing. December I had spiritual experience that put me hospitalized for 2 months. I've been fed variety SSRI's, Benzos and Antipsychotics during that time. Needless to say felt horrible. Not long enough post hospitalization I quit everything cold turkey as I was barely alive. Lasted maybe three weeks. Been put on mix of meds again and rushed my decision one more time. Currently I am third time on 10mg Brintellix for second month. I want to quit all of this and work with my "severe depression" in different methods.

 

I calculated weaning off 10 percent/month duration and it came up as a 4 years project. Is that correct? Sounds really long time but my previous cold turkey failed so if that what it takes, I guess lets go ☺

 

Thanks

[Zans]

Hello all,

 

just last year I was enjoying stellar health and wellbeing. Unfortunately I went too much into meditation and had what I think was premature Kundalini Awakening. Such problem wasn't to be solved with meds but as I was displaying severe depression and numerous other horrible symptoms that weren't responding to spiritual fixes I entered medical room. Family doctor put me on Paroxetin and Lexatonill assuring it will solve my condition. Took for a week or so and then quit as it felt my state been aggravated. Time went on and I was going worse. My mom urged me to visit real psychiatrist. I was already barely alive so I didn't show much resistance. I've been diagnosed as severely depressed by Hamilton scale and put on Valdoxan, something for anxiety and Halcion for sleep. Didn't help either. I reached a point where in full month I slept perhaps 1-2h and my nervous system would send me katatonic. With much tears I've been hospitalized for almost two months. Cried there almost every single day. I've been put on injections of Relanium and then later on Bromozepam, Olanzapine and various SSRI'S ( such as Coaxil, Fluanxol and some others). Although I had severe depression and sky high anxiety it wasn't fixable with medication. I left hospital planning to end myself as I was barely alive and tortured from variety bizzare symptoms. Fortunately lacked courage to do so. I quit everything I was on cold turkey not knowing about WD's and lasted maybe month. Been put again on Brintellix, Finlepsin and Zyprexa for sleep. Quit everything except Brintellix again and been from 20mg to 10mg for several months now. I had way too much different kind of medications for brief amount of time due to my own stupidity and vulnerability. From December to this day I used Xanax, Bromazepam, Zyprexa, Relanium, Mirtazapim, Coaxil, Fluanxol, Eglonyl, Valdoxan, Brintellix, Finlepsin and bunch of sleeping meds. Up to this day I was searching least painful ways to end myself and couple times made seemingly strong resolve to do it but fortunately yet again never found courage to do so. Unexpectedly I had major shift in my mindset just recently that I don't think was medication induced. I want to live. I want to be happy and healed. However long it takes (so much different stuff I took over half year likely puts me in a bracket of years). I was so stupid and vulnerable but I bank on my relatively young age (30) for recovery. I guess just searching for extra pep talk that it can be done although I already refuse to believe it can't. Currently taking 10mg of Brintellix and having all other stuff behind me hunting for withdrawal which I have no choice but to wheather CT as too much of different kind been taken briefly to sort it out wisely which is causing X symptoms. I'll have to be patient with Brintellix but 10%/month reduction from 10mg takes 4 years 😮 Did I calculated everything right?

 

Thanks for reading. I spent way too much time yesterday reading success stories and people had it worse then me but still lived to tell a tale!

 

Edit: sorry for double post, newbie online ☺ Ignore first part.

 

[Gridley]

Welcome to SA, Zans.  Yes, it can be done.  I'm very glad your attitude has become so positive.  We can help you get off the Brintilexx, but as you've guessed it will take some time.

 

To start, please add a signature.  Include drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements in the last 12-24 months. Also include supplements. This will help us give you the most accurate advice we can. 

• Any drugs and supplements prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years. 
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago) 
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016. 
• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses. 
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 
• This is a direct link to your signature:  Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

As you know, we recommend tapering by no more than 10% every four weeks.  Some members have to go more slowly.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

A micro-taper is the gentlest way to come off these drugs. Since you've CT'd off so many drugs you might want to consider a slower taper.

 

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

 

The Brassmonkey Slide is a way of making micro-taper reductions weekly, as opposed to a larger reduction once a month. 

 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

This link is specifically about tapering Brintellix.

 

 

Tips for tapering off Trintellix (vortioxetine), previously called Brintellix

 

As to how long it will take, if you do the 10% every four weeks taper, every six months you will decrease by half.  So in 6 months, you'll be down to 5mg, etc.  Of course, the reductions get smaller as you get lower on dose.  We recommend jumping to zero at a really low dose, like 0.1mg or less.

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Please research all supplements first and only add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

This is your Introduction topic, where you can ask questions, post updates and connect with other members.  I'm glad you found your way here.

 

 

 

 

[Zans]

Thanks! Made signature ☺

Edited June 21, 2019 by Carmie
Removed long quote

[Zans]

By the way is it possible to remove first part of this thread? Due to weak internet'ing skills I made two introduction stories ☺

 

Thanks

[Zans]

Day 1

 

I decided to try following plan: I'll go from 10mg to 5mg and then start standard 10% reduction. Not much rationality behind such decision except that it makes no difference weather I am on SSRI or not, I still feel quite bad so I might as well try to escape faster. In case bad goes to even worse I will reinstate 10mg again, swallow pill of humbleness, stabilize and go from there.

 

I've been in so much  horror from December SSRI on or not that moderate severity WD I probably can take it.

 

So far life have no quality at all. Yesterday I went cycling, tried some creative writting to exercise whatever brain I have left and spent time outside trying to pretend I enjoy sitting by myself like I used to. Whatever I did it felt like this is sort of warm up, a gateway intro to real hell which is waiting just around the corner. Whatever. I do believe that one day I will feel random joy again and will be planning various ideas with my newly working mind. 

 

Have a nice day!

[ChessieCat]

The decision about the size of the dose reduction is up to you.  However, it is a good idea to learn as much as you can so that you can at least make an informed decsion.

 

From Post #1 of this topic:  About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

This also applies to reducing too quickly:

 

On 10/9/2012 at 10:17 AM, Altostrata said:

 

Don't suddenly go off medication assuming that reinstatement is a safety net. This is one of the reasons we advocate gradual tapering to minimize withdrawal symptoms. Once the nervous system is destabilized by withdrawal, all bets are off. Humpty Dumpty has fallen off the wall.  (Humpty Dumpty is a character in a children's nursery rhyme - he is an egg.)

 

Reinstatement does not always work, and you may have to live with severe withdrawal syndrome for a long while. Medicine wants to believe the acute phase of withdrawal lasts only a few weeks. From what people have posted on the Web, it can last many months.

 

 

[Zans]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

The decision about the size of the dose reduction is up to you.  However, it is a good idea to learn as much as you can so that you can at least make an informed decsion.

 

From Post #1 of this topic:  About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

This also applies to reducing too quickly:

 

 

Hey, thanks for stopping by. If you'd give me advice that probably would be going slow as I CT so many drugs in past half a year?

 

Thanks

[ChessieCat]

I've asked the other mods for their suggestions.

[Zans]

Thank you Chessie!

[ChessieCat]

Thank you for creating your drug signature.  Please add years and dates.  If you don't know the date, use early, mid, late month please.

 

Thank you.

 

Q:  Which drug are you wanting advice on tapering?

[Zans]

5 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Thank you for creating your drug signature.  Please add years and dates.  If you don't know the date, use early, mid, late month please.

 

Thank you.

 

Q:  Which drug are you wanting advice on tapering?

I am currently only on Brintellix 10mg that I splitted in half but as you mentioned that just might be to rapid. I CT rest of drugs because side effects were unbearable. 

[ChessieCat]

tips-for-tapering-vortioxetine-trintellix-brintellix

 

[Gridley]

11 hours ago, Zans said:

am currently only on Brintellix 10mg that I splitted in

 

Zans,

 

My suggestion is that cutting from 10mg to 5mg is too fast, especially given all your CT's which will have sensitized your nervous system.  It is especially important to go slowly at the lower doses.  I don't think your idea that, as long as I'm miserable, I';m might as well go fast, is advisable.  You don't want to destabilize your system further.  

Please read the information provided here earlier before you make a decision.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

10% of 10mg is 1mg, so your next dose would be 9mg.  

 

tips-for-tapering-vortioxetine-trintellix-brintellix

 

As I said earlier, you might want to go more slowly than 10%.

 

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

 

The Brassmonkey Slide is a way of making micro-taper reductions weekly, as opposed to a larger reduction once a month. 

 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

Edited June 22, 2019 by ChessieCat
removed white space

[Altostrata]

Zans, how are you doing?

[eymen23]

Zans,

 

Given my previous involvement in the world of mindfulness and meditation, I’d be very interested to know more about the spiritual experience you mentioned. 

 

What do you feel triggered the episode that led you to hospitalisation? What were the symptoms? 

[Zans]

On Saturday, July 06, 2019 at 9:30 PM, Altostrata said:

Zans, how are you doing?

Hi Alto,

 

surprisingly I am doing ok at the moment (fingers crossed). Actually it's best I ever felt from December going as high as 6 out of 10 feeling wise. It's amazing to score 6 because up to that point I was searching nearly on daily basis for a courage to end myself. 

 

I halted my thread because I decided (immaturely perhaps) to do rapid tapper. Going from 10mg to 5, then 2.5 to 1.25 and lastly 1.25 - 0.65 - 0.35mg. Each dose will be hold for 3-4 weeks. Because of such reason I thought it would be little of help for those who might be reading and doing proper tapper. 

 

I take full responsability for this and expect no back pating in case severe WD will drive me to rant here how everything is doomed ☺

 

Currently on 5mg from 10mg. Today I have job interview. Didn't work for a year and didn't even speak much for a half a year so it's definitely something outside my current comfort zone.

 

Thanks for inquiring, hope is all well with you!

[Zans]

On Saturday, July 06, 2019 at 11:26 PM, eymen23 said:

Zans,

 

Given my previous involvement in the world of mindfulness and meditation, I’d be very interested to know more about the spiritual experience you mentioned. 

 

What do you feel triggered the episode that led you to hospitalisation? What were the symptoms? 

Hey Eymen,

 

I believe it was overexertion and my system being unprepared to handle increased voltage of energy. For three years I maintained sexual abstinence, refrained from much of a artificial stimulation (like Tv, music, web) and meditated up to 3h a day formally and spending most of the rest time in silence. I had Kundalini awakening.

 

While sometimes it's a beutiful event oftentimes it's a disaster if body is not prepared. I ended in ward cause during one month I had perhaps 60 hours of sleep and my fear was such intense that my body was shaking most of the time. Had severe disorientation problems where I could barely understand my place of location. Conciousness disappearing and being replaced by total blackness for couple seconds, adrenaline 24/7 and numerous other horrible symptoms that luckily never ended in psychosis but overwhelming fear and dysfunctionality at such level was what pushed me ask to help in hospital. None was found. I mentioned once how I felt energy rose in my body thinking it will somehow help treatment and was immediately put on Zyprexa 😀

 

Mindfulness is fine, imho. Though I advice you friendly to seek out teacher if you diving deeper then regular half hour a day sitting. 

 

Take care ☺

[Altostrata]

Thanks, Zans.

 

What dosages of everything are you taking now? Please update your signature.

[Zans]

18 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Thanks, Zans.

 

What dosages of everything are you taking now? Please update your signature.

I am on 5mg Brintellix at the moment but my signature has list of everything I took from December till this day.

[Zans]

Made a cut to 2.5mg after being on 5mg for month. Obviously it's against what this site recommends but I'll try to make it in my own way. That doesn't mean I don't believe SA strategy just my own impatience dictating pace. God forbid if eventually I'll have to start over with 10% while at the same time tatooing turtle on my back with sign "Didn't we tell you slow wins the race"?

 

Feeling really bad so far. Suicidal, weak and disoriented. Nothing shocking since it's been my default past half year with occasional period of blank neutral feeling.

 

Plan is to stay on 2.5mg until (hopefully) storm calms down and stay drifting on such dose for month or more then reevaluate.

 

Averaging 4-7h of non drugged sleep. I've been tranquilizing myself at night from January so even 4h of natural sleep is step forward.

 

So far hardest part is convincing myself that my life won't be spent in darkness until my last breath. Thing is this spiritual disaster that happened to me already brought suicidal depression and some sort of dysautonomia. Drugs just made everything more complicated. Once I'll be of them I don't know how I will handle sky high anxiety, deep depression and overreactive nervous system again. I just naively hope time heals everything.

 

I want to work. To buy a small apartment somewhere in sunny place but for this I need to feel normal not like 10000 needles are poking me. 

 

Goodluck all, hope you're having nice day ☺

[Gridley]

3 hours ago, Zans said:

Made a cut to 2.5mg after being on 5mg for month.

 

Please update your signature to show this change.  Here's the link:

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

[Zans]

1 hour ago, Gridley said:

 

Please update your signature to show this change.  Here's the link:

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

Just did that!

[Zans]

I went from 5mg to 2.5mg July 11th. Wasn't feeling awesome on 5mg but now I feel even worse (as probably expected). I wonder how much time I have left for fruitfull reinstation?

 

I am a bit hesitant to entertain such idea because I CT many meds during past half a year so any horrible feeling I have now  might be just WD from all prior medication catching up. Definitely should of stayed from hospitalization where most drug experimentation happened.

 

Visited psychiatrist today for prescription. Although I feel 3/10 lately I replied to her question "What are your current complains" with "None, I am fine". I complained several times and been put on Finlapsine (stuff to treat epilepsy). Hopefully lesson learnt hard way.

 

Tomorrow is my first working day. Last week I was feeling close to 6/10 so decided to try myself working. Will see how it goes although I have to say I am not that confident given how I feel now.

 

Thanks for reading, stay strong all! ☺

[Zans]

Reinstated back to 5mg.

 

Had horrible day yesterday. I am soon to be 31. I was taking care of myself from 19 living alone for the most part of my life. Since all ordeal started I moved in to my mom's apartment. She lives with the friend who yesterday came back drunk and started to missbehave. I had to interrupt. Whole situation stressed me so much that I went outside for a walk during heavy rain and cried so much thinking how big of a looser I am. My life is complete failure and I don't even have courage to end myself. I lost my personality, health, energy, creativity, confidence and soul. This is the green light for ending it yet I can't muster strength to do it.

All I wanted in my life is to be happy but now I am just disabled person hooked on some poisonous stuff that don't even help in the first place.

 

Slept two hours or so. Plan is wait it out on 5mg until I stop thinking about dying at least and do 10% with digital scale. 

 

Goodluck today all ☺

[Zans]

Woke up in depression and dissoriantated. Feeling somewhat better then yesterday but still not the place I'd wish for anybody to be in.

 

I got really frustrated while buying pills today. Price is so high and I am literally paying for something that is bad for my health. 

 

I am on 5mg currently. Anybody could advice me how long to stay on such dose before I make the cut?

 

 

[Zans]

I did search on digital scales and those with precision of bellow 1mg costs too much for me.

 

I am confused. Jumping off from 1mg is probably too much. How to measure doses accurately when it comes so micro? My pill is not a capsule but solid.

 

Thanks

[ChessieCat]

Many of the members here, including BrassMonkey, find the Gemini 20 scale suitable.  BrassMonkey managed to measure low doses and only had to weigh and divide manually the last very tiny doses.

 

On 7/14/2019 at 11:37 PM, Gridley said:

 

According to Brassmonkey, the Gemini scale was accurate only to 4mg pill weight.  After that he had to start visually dividing the powder to get the smaller doses.

 

 

using-a-digital-scale-to-measure-doses

 

Found this response to another member regarding this:

 

On 7/15/2019 at 5:15 AM, brassmonkey said:

 

The gemini 20  is good down to 4mgpw (0.004) below that it has trouble with accuracy.  So you have several more cuts that can be directly weighed on the scale.  After that I found it easiest to weigh out the 4mgpw and visually divide it into quarters and work from there.  Not as accurate, but gets the job done.

 

 

[eymen23]

35 minutes ago, Zans said:

I did search on digital scales and those with precision of bellow 1mg costs too much for me.

 

I am confused. Jumping off from 1mg is probably too much. How to measure doses accurately when it comes so micro? My pill is not a capsule but solid.

 

Thanks

 

Zans,

 

Something I got confused about when I first joined here, is how a 1mg scale like the a Gemini-20 is accurate enough to taper to low doses. 

 

It is because the pill weight is much higher than the weight of the active ingredient. For example, my 10mg Escitalopram tablets used to weigh an average of 134mg.

 

That would mean 1mg of active ingredient or 1 mgai equates to 13.4mg of pill weight or 13.4 mgpw. Of course the scale measures to the nearest mg so one would round-up and taper to 1.05mg of active ingredient or 1.05 mgai, which is 14mg of pill weight or 14 mgpw.

 

Of course, as you get to the really small doses, where the pill weight is below 10mg and one cannot accurately taper by 10% using the scales, it becomes less accurate and more difficult, however, you should be able to get very far on your taper using the Gemini-20 scales. 

 

Making your own liquid solution using the tablets/capsules is often preferred by members, especially at lower doses.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by eymen23

[Zans]

Eymen, Cheesie thanks for information. I found scales that goes down to 0.001g or 1mg. Once I will reach 1mg I will readjust.

 

Battling really dark depression each day. Suicidal thoughts spins often in my head. Looking how everyone moves with their lifes and enjoys stuff while I am handicapped mentally and physically is devastating. 

 

They say nothing is permanent but it is really hard to believe that one day I will be happy guy instead of drowning in this botomless darkness.

 

Goodluck all today ☺

[Zans]

I really messed up. Was feeling not so bad week or so ago and decided to jump from 5mg to 2.5mg. Instantly jumped back to 5mg. Been on 5mg since June 10th. 

 

My depression is so bad now that I barely have energy, suicidal thoughts occupying my head and I feel really awfull overall. 

 

Would going up to 10mg work? I suspect it won't since it's already month passed and before I CT'ed other meds (see my history). Might be just WD from those catching up.

 

Just ride it? Though there is nothing to ride as I barely move. Disabled at the moment.

 

Thanks

[Altostrata]

How have your symptoms changed since July 15, when you went back to 5mg? (That's what your signature says.)

 

As you know, there's a reason we tell people to taper by 10% rather than 50% at a time.

[Zans]

7 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How have your symptoms changed since July 15, when you went back to 5mg? (That's what your signature says.)

 

As you know, there's a reason we tell people to taper by 10% rather than 50% at a time.

Yeah, I know now ☺ I thought I am special snowflake and could of taper quicker. 

 

My symptoms mainly total exhaustion, 0 pleasure or joy as everything feels painfull and thoughts about dying since existence like that feels unbearable.

 

It is slightly better now but nothing significant.

 

Thanks

[Altostrata]

You'll have to be patient. It will take more than 5 days for your nervous system to settle down from the shock.

[Zans]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You'll have to be patient. It will take more than 5 days for your nervous system to settle down from the shock.

Thank you for quick response. After (if) things settle down should I hold for month or longer?

[Altostrata]

You'll probably want to hold for at least several months, let your nervous system rest.