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Zans: tapering off 10mg Brintellix - 4 years?

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Zans
On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 1:13 AM, ChessieCat said:

 

I think it's time to have a nice long hold, at least 2 months, 3 would be better.  You have made many changes in the last 4 months, see ^ quote.  Give your brain the time it needs and get nice and stable.  If you keep reducing you might make things much worse.  Withdrawal can be delayed and/or the dose changes can catch up with you.  When this happens it is sometimes hard to stabilise and/or can take a long time, and some members never stabilise and have to taper anyway.

 

 

No, this is not the way to taper.  Jumping up and down, aka yo-yoing, your doses can backfire on you.  And we have members here who have done this and it has ended up taking longer to get off their drug than if they done a nice steady taper.

 

Many members find that as their dose gets lower they need to go slower, reducing less and/or holding longer  Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

And you don't have to reduce by 10%.  You can always reduce by a smaller amount.  The rate you taper at should be what you can reduce by that doesn't cause bad withdrawal symptoms.

 

The harm reduction method of tapering means that we take away a little bit of the drug and then stay on that dose to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.  Then we can take away a little bit more and so on.

Thanks. It's obviously discouraging to stay 3 months on same dose but if you say it's for better - safer journey then I have to nod on that. I suffered and still suffering good amount. No need for more.

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ChessieCat
1 hour ago, Zans said:

It's obviously discouraging to stay 3 months on same dose

 

Yes it seems that way, but it is better in the long run.  I was fortunate to be able to reduce from 100mg Pristiq to 75mg but I only held on that dose for 2 months.  I was suffering from mild serotonin toxicity so I wanted to get my dose lower.  I tapered by 10% (with a couple of tiny updoses to start) until I got to 50mg and then held on that for 3 months to allow my brain a chance to catch up if it needed it.  Pristiq is only available (in Australia) in 50mg and 100mg tablets (I have to get my doses compounded, out of pocket).  Then I resumed tapering and even though everything was going okay when I got to 20mg I had plenty of capsules so I held for about 7 weeks.

 

Both times that I chose to hold longer I was not doing it because of withdrawal symptoms.

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Zans
38 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Yes it seems that way, but it is better in the long run.  I was fortunate to be able to reduce from 100mg Pristiq to 75mg but I only held on that dose for 2 months.  I was suffering from mild serotonin toxicity so I wanted to get my dose lower.  I tapered by 10% (with a couple of tiny updoses to start) until I got to 50mg and then held on that for 3 months to allow my brain a chance to catch up if it needed it.  Pristiq is only available (in Australia) in 50mg and 100mg tablets (I have to get my doses compounded, out of pocket).  Then I resumed tapering and even though everything was going okay when I got to 20mg I had plenty of capsules so I held for about 7 weeks.

 

Both times that I chose to hold longer I was not doing it because of withdrawal symptoms.

Quite a long journey to go from 100mg down to 2.25mg! 

 

Were you able to work during your tapers? That's probably one of the most crushing aspects of this whole process. Being limited in life areas such as job.

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ChessieCat

I've been unable to find paid employment (other than the odd 1 day temp role) after losing my job mid-2011.  But I have managed to build up to volunteering 3 days a week, which I've been doing for about 6 years.

 

I'm about to turn 62.

 

Edited by ChessieCat

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Zans
3 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

I've been unable to find paid employment (other than the odd 1 day temp role) after losing my job mid-2011.  But I have managed to build up to volunteering 3 days a week, which I've been doing for about 6 years.

 

I'm about to turn 62.

 

Ah, sorry to hear about job loss. Hopefully volunteering provides enough fullfilment and distraction for you. Plus doing good adds karma points 😀

 

I am 31 but I feel way older because all of this. I hope life is still ahead of me and I'll be able to recover.

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Zans

It feels like I triggered WD. Having sleep problems again, constipation out of nowhere, deep depression returned, no ability to relax. Life quality went from 7 to 3. Not much can be done now? Just wait and crossfingers it pass sonner then later?

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ChessieCat

Sleep problems - that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

We strongly encourage members to learn and use non drug coping techniques to help get through tough times.

 

Understanding what is happening helps us to not get caught up with the second fear, or fear of the fear.  This happens when we experience sensations in our body and because we don't understand them we are scared of them and then start to panic.

 

This document has a diagram of the body explaining what happens in the body when we become anxious:

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/docs/AnxietySelfHelp.pdf

 

 

Audio FEMALE VOICE:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Audio MALE VOICE:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

Dr Claire Weekes suffered from anxiety and learned and taught ways of coping.  There are videos available on YouTube.

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

 
Resources:  Centre for Clinical Interventions (PDF modules that you can work through, eg:  Depression, Distress Intolerance, Health Anxiety, Low Self-Esteem, Panic Attacks, Perfectionism, Procrastination, Social Anxiety, Worrying)
 
On 4/28/2017 at 4:03 AM, brassmonkey said:

 

AAF: Acknowledge, Accept, Float.  It's what you have to do when nothing else works, and can be a very powerful tool in coping with anxiety.  The neuroemotional anxiety many of us feel during WD is directly caused by the drugs and their chemical reactions in the brain.  Making it so there is nothing we can do about them.  They won't respond to other drugs, relaxation techniques and the like.  They do, however, react very well to being ignored.  That's the concept behind AAF.  Acknowledge, get to know the feeling involved, explore them.  Accept, These feelings are a part of you and they aren't going anywhere fast. Float, let the feeling float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.  It's a well documented fact that the more you feed in to anxiety the worse it gets.  What starts as generalized neuroemotinal anxiety can be easily blown into a full fledged panic attack just by thinking about it.

 

I often liken it to an unwanted house guest.  At first you talk to them, have conversations, communicate with them.  After a while you figure out that they aren't leaving and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them.  So you go on about your day, working around them until they get bored and leave.

 

It can take some practice, but AAF really does work.  I hope you give it a try.

 

 

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Zans

Thanks for links.

 

Further additional reinstatement is not neccessary and better is to wait it out?

 

Edited by ChessieCat
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ChessieCat

This issues you are currently experiencing might not be related to the Brintellix reduction.  You've cold turkeyed various drugs since December 2018(?) - your drug signature says 2019.  Please amend.

 

Even if the above was supposed to be December 2017, you have cold turkeyed other various drugs in both March and May this year.

 

And you made a 50% reduction in June 2019 as well.  Because of all the changes it makes it impossible to know what is causing the current issues.

 

And it's only been 1 week (I think) since you updosed from 4.5mg to 4.6mg.

 

Considering all the changes you have made it would seem that you are doing reasonably okay.  I realise it's not as good as you would like, but try to see it from your brain's point of view.  I think it's time to just tough it out and give your brain a chance.

 

And I will reiterate, a nice long hold ... now that your sleep is being affected I don't think you should be even considering making another reduction for at least 3 months and it may even end up being 4-6 months, so be prepared to be patient.

 

Please note that I am not suggesting that you updose.  However if you do decide to updose my suggestion would be to only increase by a tiny amount, 0.25mg or 0.5mg.  Definitely not up to 4.7mg.

 

Remember that if you do updose it's another change that your brain will be trying to adapt to and it might not make any difference because of what I mentioned before about all the CTs.

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Zans
On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 9:04 AM, ChessieCat said:

This issues you are currently experiencing might not be related to the Brintellix reduction.  You've cold turkeyed various drugs since December 2018(?) - your drug signature says 2019.  Please amend.

 

Even if the above was supposed to be December 2017, you have cold turkeyed other various drugs in both March and May this year.

 

And you made a 50% reduction in June 2019 as well.  Because of all the changes it makes it impossible to know what is causing the current issues.

 

And it's only been 1 week (I think) since you updosed from 4.5mg to 4.6mg.

 

Considering all the changes you have made it would seem that you are doing reasonably okay.  I realise it's not as good as you would like, but try to see it from your brain's point of view.  I think it's time to just tough it out and give your brain a chance.

 

And I will reiterate, a nice long hold ... now that your sleep is being affected I don't think you should be even considering making another reduction for at least 3 months and it may even end up being 4-6 months, so be prepared to be patient.

 

Please note that I am not suggesting that you updose.  However if you do decide to updose my suggestion would be to only increase by a tiny amount, 0.25mg or 0.5mg.  Definitely not up to 4.7mg.

 

Remember that if you do updose it's another change that your brain will be trying to adapt to and it might not make any difference because of what I mentioned before about all the CTs.

Hey,

 

doing really bad lately. Didn't sleep at all for two days straight. During the daytime I feel so weared down but I can't relax. Can't yawn or sigh. Seems as if my nerves is on alert mode 24/7 now. Some inner discomfort that keeps me feeling restless all the time.

 

I know you mentioned toughing it out and I guess I will have too but do you know whether this looks like wave or full on withdrawal?

 

Thank you

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Zans

So things going really difficult further. My mom thinks I could of messed myself by switching to liquid - syringe method. Her opinion is that most of the pill might just stay at the bottom and I only inject water. Though I do shake it good jar I am thinking if she has a point. 

 

Whole August I was injecting 5ml with syringe and experience was bearable. From September first it slowly went downhill and now I do feel really desperate.

 

Worst symptom is 24/7 stress. I can't relax at all and being still is getting to be impossible. Insomnia is also not "peacefull" where I just lie and stare at the ceiling. I am experiencing strong inner restlesness that makes me toss around all night. Can't complete yawning and sighing. If that is going to continue for couple more days I probably will jump back to 5ml and hopefully stabilize. Afterwards would hold for long period of time.

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eymen23
1 hour ago, Zans said:

So things going really difficult further. My mom thinks I could of messed myself by switching to liquid - syringe method. Her opinion is that most of the pill might just stay at the bottom and I only inject water. Though I do shake it good jar I am thinking if she has a point. 

 

Whole August I was injecting 5ml with syringe and experience was bearable

 

Hi Zans,

 

I’m very sorry to hear that you are struggling so much. The near-constant discomfort that you describe can be very hard for people to bear, as it doesn’t allow for much respite or feeling of having a ‘break’ to recuperate and know things will get easier. Please try to remain hopeful and use methods of distraction or self-soothing as much as possible. 

 

Reading through your thread and looking at your signature, it seems your nervous system has become destabilised over time with numerous drugs and changes. Very often we see that the effects of these changes accumulate over time, and eventually it reaches a stage where symptoms seem to persist irrespective of the particular drug or dosage currently taken. 

 

I would suggest a long hold until things start to settle down. Although you might not reach a point of being totally symptom free, you will likely reach a point where symptoms are consistent and tolerable. This is known here as ‘withdrawal normal’. From there you could consider resuming your taper at a gentle pace. 

 

In regards to your mum’s point about most of the tablet staying at the bottom of the liquid, assuming you’re still taking Brintellix, the active ingredient (vortioxetine hydrobromide) is ‘slightly soluble’ in water. From a more practical perspective, this means that 5mg of the drug will dissolve in 5ml or water. So as long as you use at least 5ml or water and remember to stir well, the only part of the tablet staying at the bottom of the liquid should be the inactive ingredients such as fillers. 

 

To me it seems more likely that the change to liquid itself upset your system, in combination with all the changes you previously made and that Chessie outlined. Again, a long hold of your current drug dosage and form (liquid) is likely the best way to stabilise in the not so distant future. 

 

Edited by eymen23

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Zans
11 hours ago, eymen23 said:

 

Hi Zans,

 

I’m very sorry to hear that you are struggling so much. The near-constant discomfort that you describe can be very hard for people to bear, as it doesn’t allow for much respite or feeling of having a ‘break’ to recuperate and know things will get easier. Please try to remain hopeful and use methods of distraction or self-soothing as much as possible. 

 

Reading through your thread and looking at your signature, it seems your nervous system has become destabilised over time with numerous drugs and changes. Very often we see that the effects of these changes accumulate over time, and eventually it reaches a stage where symptoms seem to persist irrespective of the particular drug or dosage currently taken. 

 

I would suggest a long hold until things start to settle down. Although you might not reach a point of being totally symptom free, you will likely reach a point where symptoms are consistent and tolerable. This is known here as ‘withdrawal normal’. From there you could consider resuming your taper at a gentle pace. 

 

In regards to your mum’s point about most of the tablet staying at the bottom of the liquid, assuming you’re still taking Brintellix, the active ingredient (vortioxetine hydrobromide) is ‘slightly soluble’ in water. From a more practical perspective, this means that 5mg of the drug will dissolve in 5ml or water. So as long as you use at least 5ml or water and remember to stir well, the only part of the tablet staying at the bottom of the liquid should be the inactive ingredients such as fillers. 

 

To me it seems more likely that the change to liquid itself upset your system, in combination with all the changes you previously made and that Chessie outlined. Again, a long hold of your current drug dosage and form (liquid) is likely the best way to stabilise in the not so distant future. 

 

Hey Eymen,

 

thanks for quick and lengthy response. Yeah, unfortunately I quit various drugs CT which might of have delayed reaction. I actually had various symptoms all the time but it was liveable. From September it picked up pace though.

 

I use 10mg mixed with 10ml. I hope that's still fit slightly soluble definition.

 

Again, thank you for reassurance and support. I just couldn't take how bad it is lately. Yet I know it can be even worse.

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Zans

No particular question just need to vent a little bit. I suppose it's ok since this thread diary alike.

 

Man I am so afraid of sleep deprivation ramping up. I average probably 1h a night lately. That was how I was hospitalized before. Same storyline developing. Can't lie down peacefully. Feels as if being ripped apart inside my body. Worst part is that I can't relax. Meditation or magnesium without help. I feel cortisol in my body all the time and I can't switch to parasympayhetic mode. Due to constant stress my nose is stuffed now and I mouth breath which adds additional struggles when trying to sleep. Can't find a place or moment where I would get a short break and deep sigh. I'd take depression over this torture all time.  

 

The worst symptom by far is not being able to just BE. I don't think it's akathisia since there is no urge to move but severe restlesness and ever flooding stress.

 

 

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ChessieCat

This was posted to another member recently.  Something in there might be helpful.

 

9 hours ago, Idlehnds said:

 

 

Thank you so much!  I am so glad I could of helped you during your times.  This really made my day!!  I really want to help people so badly!

 

One of my specialties with my holistic wellness/health coaching would be to help people come off there meds.  I would try to guide them to really understand there brain and encourage them with Nueroplasticity.   How sometimes when they get stuck in withdrawal a lot longer then they should is because of a limbic system dysfunction and we get caught in these loops of fear and worry that keep the cycle going.

 

When you are withdrawing from a med you get a ton symptoms.  These symptoms create a neural pathway of fear and worry.   Lets use typical AD symptom of insomnia for instance.   The fear and worry around if you are going to sleep at night starts to create the process of a limbic system loop.  First, you start worrying,  "can I make it to work tomorrow", "we need sleep to heal and if I am not sleeping I am not healing", " I am going to get sick because I always get sick when I don't sleep" etc, etc etc,.  Then in order to cope you start avoiding things like canceling appointments, drinking alcohol, taking benzo's, etc etc. During this whole process you are building a much stronger connection in your brain with fear.  They have a saying that says "what wires together fires together" when referring to neural pathways.  Like some people that got bit by a dog when they were younger, maybe have built a neural pathway that every time they see a dog they are flooded with stress hormones in there body which causes the classic anxiety symptoms.  With withdrawal, we are building these associations with fear and creating these imprints in our brain that when a certain action happens, we automatically fire off our stress hormones from our subconscious.  In the example I am showing, we are constantly firing off a cascading fear response to sleep, which feeds a loop, which in turn pumps cortisol in our system, which takes away from digestion, which makes our mind race, which causes pain in the body and the list goes on and on and on and on.

 

I noticed the longer we build these associations of fear the stronger they get for a lot of people if they don't have the tools to get themselves out of the constant loop.   The other thing I noticed is the symptoms always rotate around.  One day its your digestion, one day its your mind cant shut off, one day your back is hurting, one day its a head pressure and its always something.

 

Now this isn't for everyone, but it is for alot of people with prolonged withdrawal. The key to shortening the duration of withdrawal is to teach there brain to associate with safety instead of fear which will stop the loop and get them out of the "prolonged" withdrawal.   That is why it so awesome they have this website.  This website allows people to understand that its just withdrawal.  They understand that you shouldn't fear because its just withdrawal and keeps you from staying in the loop.  Of course we all still sometimes get in the loop but the support helps us get out of it.  You can take the fear away with knowledge if you know what your doing when going through it.  You almost take away the power because you know its going to end.

 

Sorry that was a long response but that is a tiny bit of what I would like to teach people.   Its all centered around Annie Hoppers "DNRS" technique and John Sarno's TMS philosophy.  Also, focusing on nutrition, exercise, spirit will all be important aspects of my coaching/teaching.  Helping them to shift there beliefs that our Mind Body and Spirit are 100% connected is probably another important thing.  Teaching people that if you have love, you cannot have fear.  Fear/stress is what causes all of Dis-Ease in our body.  

 

 

 

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Zans

Thank you, beautifully written. I am trying to stay neutral as much as I can but body has it's own reactions it seems.

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Zans

Btw, regardless how more bad my condition becomes any other medication introducement, bumping to much higher doses current one or using sleeping pills is must be avoided correct?

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Idlehnds
4 hours ago, Zans said:

Btw, regardless how more bad my condition becomes any other medication introducement, bumping to much higher doses current one or using sleeping pills is must be avoided correct?

 

 

I have something I want to tell you and I hope it helps.  

 

1.  There is nothing wrong with you.  Everything that is happening is because that is the way your body was designed.  Its doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing.  You had a powerful spiritual experience.  It created more energy in your body that you were not prepared for and it seems you didnt have a teacher or a guru to guide you out.  So you went to western medicine and they put you on the meds.   This is not your fault, none of this is.  Give yourself some compassion.  How can we change this outlook to love?  What if you are exactly where you are suppose to be.  That this is the biggest spiritual test you will ever have.  It was for me.   It was teaching me a bigger lesson then any meditation or book reading you can do.

 

2.  Your Brain.  Lets look at the insomnia you are going through.  Your brain is a habit learner.  Its really good at learning habits, but it is especially good at learning negative habits.  Why?  Because since the dawn of our existence, since when we were caveman we had to learn to survive.  When something is negative, we remember it really well so we can protect ourselves.  Because if you were a caveman and you saw a lion behind a bush, you would remember to never go to that bush again.  Right?  Now we don’t have those lions, but we do have bills, stressful kids, the news feeding us fear, you have to have a skinny body in order to be pretty, etc. etc. etc.    So, our brains have evolved to be SUPER good at hardwiring the negativity in our lives.  When you are in withdrawal, stress hormones are flooded in your system which is chronic pain. Chronic pain can be anxiety, depression, back pain, brain zaps, dis-ease etc. etc. So these symptoms intensify and your brain starts to build fears around it.  Its like a sled in fresh powder of snow.  The more you go down the same path with your sled, the deeper the path in the snow.  Your brain is hardwiring this fear because it thinks there is a lion behind that bush.  I think everyone hear on these boards have gone through this and you are not alone.

 

This is your insomnia.  When you keep telling yourself you are scared and fearful because you don’t want the same thing to happen you are in a loop.  The loop is not letting your body go back into ease its stuck in dis-ease.  I had to tell myself I didn’t care if it I slept.  But I had to really believe it.  I had to believe it and TRUST that my body is going to do what is suppose to do.  This was breaking the loop.  I knew that my body was doing exactly what I trained it to do.  

 

How can you start today by teaching your brain that you are safe?  If you realize that your body and brain are doing the exact thing it is suppose to be doing, and if you can put it back into safety it will go back into the state of ease.  I dont know all the answers, but I came back from it.  I saw the shift when I changed my beliefs in insomnia and then combined it with the feeling of love.  

 

Please keep in mind that our situations are different.  We are not the same and have not had the same life experiences.  However, understanding how your brain and your body works is a crucial step to learning to trust yourself more.  If we taught it to go in the fear mode, we can sure as hell teach it to be in the love mode.  Its a littler harder, but it will be the greatest spiritual awakening you will ever be apart of.  I know throughout all the spiritual teachers I have been guided through, the best way to teach is through experience.   Show yourself some love and understand that this is your opportunity to a awakening that will transform your life to something powerful.   Love you and stay strong.

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Zans

Hey,

 

Idlehnds thanks for stopping by, appreciated.

 

I used to think that what happened to me hopefully was a bridge to cross towards something better in myself. As a matter of fact before even starting my first meditation session I was silently longing for some inner transformation. Something that would destroy "old" and rebuild better "new". Unfortunately I was heard only on part about destroying. I simply got worse as a person, caused closed ones ton of suffering and picked up strong depression with nervous/endocrine system dysregulation. Not to mention multiple polydrugging. Talk about winning Darwin's fool reward ☺ No matter how I turn this around it only makes sense as sort of cruel Karma justice for my misdeeds when I was younger. That's the only way I can see it as "being in the place I need to be".

 

Nice explanation about fear and creating negative loops. Actually I was able to get 5h of sleep yesterday just by trying to ease of. Was hearing some sort of buzzing or vibrating in the background and got scared that I am developing hallucinations. Eyes wide open, full on alert mode. But then reread what you wrote and somehow managed to be ok with all that. So thanks for tip ☺

 

I also agree on love part. Probably most powerfull force that could be cultivated. When I was searching help during crisis one healer actually emphasized that only way out is through self compassion and love. Unfortunately meditations he taught me didn't work and I just ended up in the hospital. I mentioned there that it all started with feeling energy rising in my body. Doc just nodded head and put me on Olanzapine 😀 

 

Anyways, thanks for what you wrote, I think it helped yesterday. Was really in a need of sleep.

 

Edited by ChessieCat
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Zans

Hey,

 

I have somewhat bugging symptom lately and would like to know if that is expected or perhaps smth else.

 

For past week I keep hearing in the distant background sort of vibrating or humming type of sound. It's not ringing per se as tinnitus supposed to be but it's bothering enough to be concerned.

 

Can it be one of the symptoms?

 

Thanks

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Zans

Hey,

 

I wonder if there is something to be done for crippling depression that I am experiencing since going down to 4.6mg? Nothing helps to give me even slight uplift (exercise, better food or meditation). I just feel so awful it's hard for me to leave a house and once I do leave things are not better. Just binging on random youtube videos whole day as this the only activity that mildly gives me pleasure. 

 

Just wait it out? Give it more time? It's been going like that from September 1st exactly. 

 

 

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Zans

Unfortunately I caved in and bumbed dose to 5mg again somewhere in the middle of September. Whole month is just brutal. Sleeping 2-4h, hearing this annoying vibrating/buzzing noise in the background and depression feels like whenever I move I shake bunch of toxins inside my body. Being basically housebound expecting that next morning will be at least a bit better.

 

Is it wise now to hold on 5mg to New Year and then try 10% reduction again?

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Zans
On Friday, October 04, 2019 at 11:40 AM, Zans said:

 

Anyone?

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Zans

I am not sure if posting links here allowed if it's not please remove and apologies. I've been feeling horrible but this video made me genuinely laugh so perhaps it would do same for others who smiled long time ago.

 

 

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Zans

How would you compare withdrawal depression vs pre medication depression? This current state for me associates with words like toxins, artificial, poison. It doesn't respond to exercise, music or spending time with people. Just overall horrible feeling as I would be walking in some scary movie all the time. Colours dark, white-black type of and view is blurry as if I'd be underwater. I'd assume regular depression has sadness or empty feelings emphasized but this feels as I am in Silence of Lamb.

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eymen23
On 10/4/2019 at 9:40 AM, Zans said:

Is it wise now to hold on 5mg to New Year and then try 10% reduction again?


Zans,

 

It’s very difficult for us to assess and suggest what seems most sensible when you don’t provide us with notes of your daily symptom pattern. 
 

When we are really struggling, It’s very easy to have a bad turn and feel like it’s the worst we’ve ever been. By keeping daily notes, you and us as moderators can start to see patterns emerging over time, that help us to rationally assess the situation. It’s not easy to compare how we feel today vs 4 weeks ago, but it’s much easier to compare notes.

 

I think holding would be very sensible for the time being, as it seems changes continue to shake things up and you are likely still dealing with the fallout of the dramatic drug changes long before this. 
 

In regards to your question about depression, that’s difficult for me to assess. Those in an acute period of severe depression symptoms would find they get minimal relief from normally enjoyable and beneficial activities, but that can be very similar in withdrawal as our nervous system figures things out. 
 

I would continue to focus on methods of self-care, even if they don’t have immediate positive impact. Sometimes we have to ‘fake it till we make it’, and for many this can be beneficial in the longer term. 
 

Edited by eymen23

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Zans
42 minutes ago, eymen23 said:


Zans,

 

It’s very difficult for us to assess and suggest what seems most sensible when you don’t provide us with notes of your daily symptom pattern. 
 

When we are really struggling, It’s very easy to have a bad turn and feel like it’s the worst we’ve ever been. By keeping daily notes, you and us as moderators can start to see patterns emerging over time, that help us to rationally assess the situation. It’s not easy to compare how we feel today vs 4 weeks ago, but it’s much easier to compare notes.

 

I think holding would be very sensible for the time being, as it seems changes continue to shake things up and you are likely still dealing with the fallout of the dramatic drug changes long before this. 
 

In regards to your question about depression, that’s difficult for me to assess. Those in an acute period of severe depression symptoms would find they get minimal relief from normally enjoyable and beneficial activities, but that can be very similar in withdrawal as our nervous system figures things out. 
 

I would continue to focus on methods of self-care, even if they don’t have immediate positive impact. Sometimes we have to ‘fake it till we make it’, and for many this can be beneficial in the longer term. 
 

Hey,

 

thanks for reply!

 

So what needs to be done is noting daily symptoms? If that is helpful I will start doing that.

 

I agree on "fake till you make it". It just seems pointless as everything feels miserable but on the other hand other option is to just give up which obviously not the choice.

 

 

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eymen23

Hi Zans,

 

Please log your symptoms, drug dosage and timing, eating times and sleep times in the format below:

 

On 9/27/2016 at 7:49 PM, Altostrata said:

DATE:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep

Edited by eymen23

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Zans
9 minutes ago, eymen23 said:

Hi Zans,

 

Please log your symptoms, drug dosage and timing, eating times and sleep times in the format below:

 

Alright, seems simple. Thank you!

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Zans

10/13

 

Sleep 10:30 - 3:30

3:30 - 8:00 just tossed around 

9 - 14:00 watched movies, extreme resistance to do anything else

14:00 drank liquid medication

14:00 went for around 10km walk. Basically just forced myself. Things looking surreal, as if watching through a murky window or being underwater, not feeling myself in the body, no pleasure just body ache and feel as old's person. Thoughts about death as a relief brings excitenment.  Last several km felt a bit of relief, a bit of positivity.

17:00 or so to 22:00 just movies and binging on phone. Feeling ashamed, low and depressed but at the same time movie or some video only one thing that produces slight pleasure. Becoming addict basically.

 

Quality of existence 2/10

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Zans

10/14

 

10:30pm - 1 am sleep

1-5 tossing around, restless leg, uncomfortable heat inside body

5-7am - fragile sleep

Depression, no appetite extreme resistance to go outside even though day is warm and sunny. 

2pm - liquid meds and finally forced myself to go out

Feeling miserable, fatigued so stopped at grandma's place. Outburst of anger followed by exhaustion. Barely walked back to home due to exhaustion (1.5km or so). Even standing is taxing.

Strong feelings of shame and hopelesness. Very little energy. 

10pm - attempt to sleep

 

 

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Zans

10/15

 

10:30pm - 3am sleep

3-6 awake, then slept about hour or so.

Woke up slightly better, feeling a bit rested. 

12am liquid meds and went outside for a walk. Depression is here but it's moderate. I feel I could live with such intensity until I die. It is more like melancholy but it did respond to walking outside, reading, etc. It allows to be coped with. Felt whole, grounded in my body and was just only plain sad which is nothing in comparison to that toxin alike depression where even colours gets murky and thoughts about dying brings excitenment.

Watched youtube videos of my meditation teacher. So odd, just a year before I was at his place in Thailand island thinking to stay and live a monastic lifestyle. Was in my best shape health wise, slightly euphoric most of the time. Yet I felt strong urge that I need to leave Thailand and comeback to my homeland. I followed the urge and that's why I am here. Lol at "you're your own guru" and "listen to yourself" type of sayings.

10:00 - attempt to sleep.

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Hellbutrin
1 hour ago, Zans said:

10/15

 

10:30pm - 3am sleep

3-6 awake, then slept about hour or so.

Woke up slightly better, feeling a bit rested. 

12am liquid meds and went outside for a walk. Depression is here but it's moderate. I feel I could live with such intensity until I die. It is more like melancholy but it did respond to walking outside, reading, etc. It allows to be coped with. Felt whole, grounded in my body and was just only plain sad which is nothing in comparison to that toxin alike depression where even colours gets murky and thoughts about dying brings excitenment.

Watched youtube videos of my meditation teacher. So odd, just a year before I was at his place in Thailand island thinking to stay and live a monastic lifestyle. Was in my best shape health wise, slightly euphoric most of the time. Yet I felt strong urge that I need to leave Thailand and comeback to my homeland. I followed the urge and that's why I am here. Lol at "you're your own guru" and "listen to yourself" type of sayings.

10:00 - attempt to sleep.

Where does this depression come from? I've had it for over two years and it's been constant. I just want to know that it will eventually go away and I'll be able to feel simple feelings like contentment and joy. 

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Altostrata

Zans, your poor sleep may be contributing to your overall lack of well-being.

 

Are you still taking 5mg Brintellix? Please include the drug and dosage in your daily notes.

 

Are you feeling better or worse since reinstating 5mg Brintellix? How has it affected your sleep?

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Zans
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 5:24 PM, Hellbutrin said:

Where does this depression come from? I've had it for over two years and it's been constant. I just want to know that it will eventually go away and I'll be able to feel simple feelings like contentment and joy. 

This type of depression was brought by meditation and refined further by bag of medications I took. 

 

I feel you man, all I want is joy and happy feel again. Heck, I am even fine with "having to earn" that with traditional means such as exercise, reading, talking, etc but current state not responding to any of that. 

 

Anyways, I really wish you to feel something positive again, being in same place I understand how desperate it feels.

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Zans
18 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Zans, your poor sleep may be contributing to your overall lack of well-being.

 

Are you still taking 5mg Brintellix? Please include the drug and dosage in your daily notes.

 

Are you feeling better or worse since reinstating 5mg Brintellix? How has it affected your sleep?

Hey,

 

I did updated my signature (doesn't it show)? July - August I was taking 5mg. August was actually promising since I got back on sleeping regulary, was meeting my friends volunteraly, exercised a bit and had overall better feeling. 

 

The reinstatement made me slightly better but it's such unoticable change that I might of well stayed on 4.6mg. Sleep didn't change. From first day I reduced to 4.6mg it detoriated rapidly regardless whether I watch Tv before sleep or read book. In fact it works backwards: if I take longer walks I don't sleep and yesterday I watched movies all day basically basking in blue light without any movement whatsoever and managed to sleep 5 hours.

 

I read so many of your posts where you mentioned that before only really small amount of people were having Major Depression Disorder. Those who been crippled so badly that they could not leave house. Another thing you wrote was named something as "neurotoxicity depression" (I might be butchering exact naming) being totally different from regular depression. I am really confused if I am crippled like that by meds or I developed genuine rare case major depression. 

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