Jump to content
Zans

Zans: tapering off 10mg Brintellix - 4 years?

Recommended Posts

Zans

10/16

 

slept maybe 1 hour and spent whole day inside watching movies. Afraid of people, strong resistance to leave house, weak body.

 

12:00 - liquid 5mg Brintellix

 

Not much to write about symptoms since I slep only 1 hour and felt terrible whole day. As long as I watch movies I don't feel mental pain so strongly but such lifestyle makes me misetable in itself. Catch 22 ☺

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata
10 hours ago, Zans said:

The reinstatement made me slightly better

 

A little better is an improvement.

 

On 9/3/2019 at 1:45 PM, Zans said:

So after being on 5mg full August I made cut to 4.5mg on September 1st. Since then can't sleep again and feeling overexcited. In three days I slept maybe 8 hours total. Was doing ok sleep wise prior cut. Is this expected after cut?

 

Your sleep problems date from this premature reduction after only a few months of stabilizing. Getting at least a half-hour a day of gentle exercise such as walking can help, but you can do more to repair your sleep. (If you find more exercise interferes with sleep, you're overdoing it.)

 

Can you get melatonin? That is the hormone that starts the sleep cycle. The normal human sleep cycle is from nightfall to sunrise. Moving your sleep schedule closer to the natural biorhythm reinforces your body's natural pattern.

 

The best use of melatonin to start the sleep cycle is to take it at nightfall. At this time of year, you can call this 9 p.m. Since the natural cycle is triggered by darkness, then you'd turn off all the lights and get off all computers. You don't have to get into bed right then, you might try going to bed at 10 p.m. or 11 p.m. in a very dark, cool bedroom. Then you get up at maybe 8 a.m. and be sure to go out and get some natural light on your face and body. This helps reset the sleep cycle.

 

See What is the sleep cycle?

 

Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

TV or computer use in evening can disrupt sleep: Bright light signals the brain that it's daytime

 

White noise devices for sleep

 

Severe major depression cannot be diagnosed in the context of adverse drug reaction. You don't develop endogenous depression in withdrawal syndrome.

 

Please note you cold-turkeyed a batch of psychiatric drugs about 5 months ago. Five months of withdrawal syndrome is not a very long time, you probably have many more months to go. You'll need to stay calm and realistic throughout the process, as it tends to be very gradual and frustrating.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Zans
On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 10:25 PM, Altostrata said:

 

A little better is an improvement.

 

 

Your sleep problems date from this premature reduction after only a few months of stabilizing. Getting at least a half-hour a day of gentle exercise such as walking can help, but you can do more to repair your sleep. (If you find more exercise interferes with sleep, you're overdoing it.)

 

Can you get melatonin? That is the hormone that starts the sleep cycle. The normal human sleep cycle is from nightfall to sunrise. Moving your sleep schedule closer to the natural biorhythm reinforces your body's natural pattern.

 

The best use of melatonin to start the sleep cycle is to take it at nightfall. At this time of year, you can call this 9 p.m. Since the natural cycle is triggered by darkness, then you'd turn off all the lights and get off all computers. You don't have to get into bed right then, you might try going to bed at 10 p.m. or 11 p.m. in a very dark, cool bedroom. Then you get up at maybe 8 a.m. and be sure to go out and get some natural light on your face and body. This helps reset the sleep cycle.

 

See What is the sleep cycle?

 

Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

TV or computer use in evening can disrupt sleep: Bright light signals the brain that it's daytime

 

White noise devices for sleep

 

Severe major depression cannot be diagnosed in the context of adverse drug reaction. You don't develop endogenous depression in withdrawal syndrome.

 

Please note you cold-turkeyed a batch of psychiatric drugs about 5 months ago. Five months of withdrawal syndrome is not a very long time, you probably have many more months to go. You'll need to stay calm and realistic throughout the process, as it tends to be very gradual and frustrating.

 

I can get melatonin but from what I understand about melatonin it is for kickstarting sleep correct? It is responsible for introduction part of the sleep (yawning, getting sleepy, etc) not necceserily for carrying you troughout whole night. If that's so I don't have hard time to feeling sleepy on evenings (I assume getting sleepy when it's dark is body releasing melatonin?) it's the maintaining sleep once I zone out for first half hour or so. Hope that makes sense.

 

Yes, indeed it's surreal and frustrating process. Watching time pass by ☺ I probably have to stay on 5mg now until my sleep returns even if that means multiple months in the row?

 

Thank you for your time and kindness.

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata
8 hours ago, Zans said:

I can get melatonin but from what I understand about melatonin it is for kickstarting sleep correct?

 

That is correct. Melatonin helps send a signal to your body to start the sleep cycle. Adding a little melatonin (0.25mg might be sufficient) at nightfall may reinforce your natural sleep cycle, keeping you sleeping longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

Didn't update separate days as the symptoms stays pretty much same:

 

11-3am is usually sleep. After that I toss around with some zoning in and out for brief periods of time. Dreams becoming less horrific and more friendly.

 

8/9am - 12 is moderate to severe depression which I could not take it last days anymore and made myself a coffee. This is often miss or hit but once I do hit, depression and fear of meeting people/going out lifts up a bit. Usually it means no sleep at all also but I managed to sleep last days for 4 hours.

 

12am I drink this bitter tasting liquid and start listening weird sounds my stoamach starts to make with any type of food being put inside. Then usually depression slightly worsens and it becoms battle to dragging myself out. I walked around 10km in sinlight yesterday again but felt as if I slicing through surreal LSD alike environment. Shapes are blurry, colours pale and overall it is if I'd taking toxin filled shower.

 

Brain is almost never produce idea, spark of creativity or inspirational thought. Pure robotic motion as in "turn left", "lets go home", "lets eat" fashion.

 

from 4-9 I hide inside phone watching various videos or movies as anything outside of it my body resists with apathy or slimpy have no idea what else I actually could be doing. Officially addicted to youtube ☺

 

10 - attempting to sleep but lying there for good hour with intrusive thoughts of "how I messed up".

 

Today I had short chat with friend who have some health issues main symptom being severe migraine. Doctors treating her in stages.

 

Stage 1 - magnesium and Vit D

Stage 2 - addition of some new AD

Stage 3 - addition of epilepsy meds.

 

Another friend been hospitalized 3rd time this year. Supposedly he's schizophrenic and been on injections for 10 years. He's looking and doing awfully. I inquired whether hospitalization was due psychosis but he said panick and general weakness. Side effects of AP's?

 

In all these cases I'd like to state my opinion but everytime I refuse because how do I know that a guy won't start hearing voices that tells to kill himself and lady who has daughter and husband won't be able to function due to debilitating migraine.

 

Plus my own situation is not so inspiring to be handling advices of such caliber. 

Share this post


Link to post
eymen23

Zans,

 

I understand how you feel about your friends’ situations and wanting to tell them the ‘truth’. I have a very good friend who has been moved slowly up to 200mg of Zoloft for OCD and sadly is only getting worse, whilst also being offered a tricyclic antidepressant to add in! 
 

My experience is that people tend to do what they think is best and will often be closed off to advice that goes against their current beliefs and/or opinions. I find it’s best to offer your experience and opinion, only when one asks you for it or when you very gently make a suggestion during a time of crisis. 
 

Also, we never truly know how these drugs are experienced by others. I couldn’t tolerate 5mg of Escitalopram, but my friend seems to have no significant side effects from 200mg of Zoloft. Some people find relief, some people feel no real change and some go downhill quickly. 
 

Edited by eymen23

Share this post


Link to post
Zans
2 hours ago, eymen23 said:

Zans,

 

I understand how you feel about your friends’ situations and wanting to tell them the ‘truth’. I have a very good friend who has been moved slowly up to 200mg of Zoloft for OCD and sadly is only getting worse, whilst also being offered a tricyclic antidepressant to add in! 
 

My experience is that people tend to do what they think is best and will often be closed off to advice that goes against their current beliefs and/or opinions. I find it’s best to offer your experience and opinion, only when one asks you for it or when you very gently make a suggestion during a time of crisis. 
 

Also, we never truly know how these drugs are experienced by others. I couldn’t tolerate 5mg of Escitalopram, but my friend seems to have no significant side effects from 200mg of Zoloft. Some people find relief, some people feel no real change and some go downhill quickly. 
 

It is true that each body - mind is unique in how it responds to these meds but regardless end game is the same even for most resiliant right? At some point "poop out" appears, dose must be changed or another med introduced. Regardless over time one gets progressively worse health wise even if medication is "working". I mean it's almost as racing against clock until results catch up.

 

Maybe I am wrong. Perhaps there are people quite healthy and happy after being multiple years on this stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

So first time after September 1st I have some sort of a window. Depression is there but it's more like a strong blues and feels more organic, something that is possible to deal with. Thoughts about death doesn't come as a relief. There is want to stick around rather.

 

Appetite more natural. I feel pleasure from eating. Some level of confidence is there. Navigating supermarket inside crowd of people was relatively easy. 

 

Most importantly feeling of "me" cameback. I was on autopilot and it felt as just empty body shufling without aim. Now I stopped for awhile to enjoy fullness and wholness inside the body. Substance instead of emptyness. My mind became alive again. Like I regained normal thinking patterns. Planning, reasoning, creative thoughts filled what was hollow area before.

 

My stamina is fine again. Breathing smooth and through nose. I don't afraid of people, places and wouldn't mind to meet somebody. Urge to burry myself with escapisms such as binge movie watching weaker as well.

 

It's only half a day like this but I take this as a positive sign. Perhaps future will bring even better results.

 

Strength to all!

Share this post


Link to post
eymen23

Zans,

 

That’s very encouraging to hear and it shows the benefits of holding steady on dosages. Hopefully you will start to get more hours and days like this, albeit punctuated with times of more difficult and intense symptoms. 

Share this post


Link to post
Zans
11 minutes ago, eymen23 said:

Zans,

 

That’s very encouraging to hear and it shows the benefits of holding steady on dosages. Hopefully you will start to get more hours and days like this, albeit punctuated with times of more difficult and intense symptoms. 

I hope so too. When do you think is wise to attempt a cut? I have no clue how much time nerves need to stabilize so that a cut wouldn't be another earthquake.

Share this post


Link to post
eymen23
4 minutes ago, Zans said:

I hope so too. When do you think is wise to attempt a cut? I have no clue how much time nerves need to stabilize so that a cut wouldn't be another earthquake.


It’s always difficult to predict, but given the severity of your recent symptoms and previous changes, I would suggest holding for 3-4 months as a minimum. 
 

Once we are in a window it’s easy to feel like we are in the ‘all clear’, but really we are waiting for what we call ‘withdrawal normal’, where symptoms are consistent, predictable and tolerable. 
 

This excellent explanation by Brassmonkey should give you a better idea of how you should feel before attempting to taper again.

 

 

Edited by eymen23

Share this post


Link to post
Gemma92

Hi Zans, just dropping by to give you my support. I am glad you are doing better after being on all of those drugs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Zans
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:07 PM, Gemma92 said:

Hi Zans, just dropping by to give you my support. I am glad you are doing better after being on all of those drugs. 

Thanks!

 

We'll make it sooner or later ☺

Share this post


Link to post
Zans
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:07 PM, Gemma92 said:

So things been going relatively ok. My sleep is still cheap quality but I feel fine throughout the day. Met some friends. I was surprised that as I became more comfortable I was able to engage in conversations using reasoning and creativity. I went deeper then I expected which showed that brain slowly emerging from mashed potatoe state. During my first window it wasn't the case.

What I noticed though that after I swallow devil drops (Brintellix) I feel slightly nauseous but more importantly my breathing changes. I am unable to nose breath anymore and mouth breathing takes over. Mouth breathing is happening when body is stressed so it obvious now that what I am consuming for health reasons actually destroying my health gradually.

 

I'd like to make cut on January first. Thats going to be 4 months after last cut and 2.5 months after stableizing. Would that be a good idea?

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

Some bug happened with post. Didn't intend to qoute. Qouted part is also mine.

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

So I visited my psychiatrist today. She gave Hamilton depression test again and I scored very low. She looked at me and told:

 

"You're doing good. I think in two months we can take you off meds". 

 

I started thinking what "taking off" in her vocabulary means and suspect it's some rapid taper stuff. At first I though faking test scale next time I come to have high score for depression but just told her I want to use meds onwards.

 

"That's very good". It will serve as prevention", she replied.

 

Later on she also warned me:

"By the way you must drink your meds daily. Antidepressant is not like Xanax or smth which you can just stop taking".

 

I just nodded head and went thinking how much misinformation for 8 years of study. At least job pays well.

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

This condition that we're in is ultimatr confusion of what works and what doesn't.

 

Recently I discovered Buteyko breathing. Did a lot of reading and was stoked about claims that it takes care of most conditions. Insomnia, depression and overall autonomic dysfunction.

 

I purchased this tool called Frolov device. You breath through the tube with some water for resistance and that way CO2 increases in your body which helps with oxygenation.

 

During the day I feel more energy, calmness and positive outlook yet it makes me amped up at night and I usually sleep hour or two.

 

Damn I thought I discovered holy grain. So many people swear by this method.

 

So I am left with walking and some coffee as tools for mood. 

Share this post


Link to post
Benzhelp

Hi Zans, 

So glad to hear you are finding ways to manage symptoms. Hope you find them successful. I have not heard of some of these, so thanks for sharing. 

Walking and coffee are great simple and effective tools.  : )

Wishing you the very Best on your Tapering Journey,  Zans. 

Peace, Light and Love <3

Share this post


Link to post
Zans
20 hours ago, Benzhelp said:

Hi Zans, 

So glad to hear you are finding ways to manage symptoms. Hope you find them successful. I have not heard of some of these, so thanks for sharing. 

Walking and coffee are great simple and effective tools.  : )

Wishing you the very Best on your Tapering Journey,  Zans. 

Peace, Light and Love <3

Thanks!

 

Sending all the good stuff back at you 

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

Slept horrible again but surprisingly feel fine and pro life. I've been averaging around 3 hours of walking outside lately and it's been most effective SSRI hands down.

 

During these occassional moments of freshness I reflect on times when I was happiest in my life. Aside spending summers at grandma's place as I child the closest to a flow I was when I worked physicaly. Something about dumb straightforwardness, body freedom and movement throughout a day that made me feel "in the zone" for some time.

 

For whatever reason I was slightly ashamed of that. I thought life holds some deeper meaning and there is some special personal potential that I suppose to unlock. I actually tried numerous activities during self search. Yet in my case it was as simple as cycling to job, loading on coffee and carrying boxes lol. I was simply playing, that thing that we suppose to do in life.

 

I don't know how much I will recover physically but once I am able I'd like to have light - moderate intensity manual labor preferably outside, ideally somewhere in nature. That's my number one item on a bucket list. And I did skydiving ☺

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

Is there any info on forum by how much liquid dosing could be inacurrate? I see people being concerned and thinking of moving to scales. Honestly I don't understand how scale could be more precise unless we're talking about lab scales which aren't really cheap.

 

Would appreciate link or some plain info if somebody knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

I was adviced to hold now for 3-4 months now before making a cut. While I am not arguing against such advice I am still going to attempt cut on December 1st. I will try 2.5% approach though.

 Reason I changed my mind is because I think much of my wave from last cut been amplified due to overdoing with carbon dioxide. I've been withdrawal stable but been again playing carefully with this reduced breathing concept. Right amount of CO2 seems to significantly improve my mood, energy and zest for life. Too much of it and I am very restless, irritable but also sluggish. Case of tired but wired. It's really confusing to dose it correctly. Last time I didn't connect the dots so continued to do breathing sessions while at the same time making a cut. That landed me in very bad state.

 

So that's my reasoning. Other than that I've been fine as fine one can be during these times. 

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

So I went ahead and cut it. Made 5% cut and rounded to 4% just to have equal number 4.8g. 

 

The syringe I am using has 0.25 jumps so I decided to just reduce one grade (0.25ml) every two weeks but after second cut I'll add additional two week hold.

 

It looks like this:

 

4.8 two weeks hold

4.6 two weeks hold + two weeks hold

 

This is similar to Brassmonkey method but I'd be reducing every two weeks around 4% and in 6 weeks it will be around 8% reduction. Quite safe pace. I chose such meyhod for convenience as 2.5% just lands me in weird numbers and I have to combino two syringes.

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

@Altostrata

 

Apologies for @ you but I have a question that I can't figure it out on my own.

 

I've been holding from September first to November 21st or so. Then I cut around 4% and went from 5mg to 4.8mg. Waited for two weeks and today made cut again around 4% going from 4.8mg to 4.6mg. I feel as good as one can feel during WD. 

 

Can I keep cutting around 4% (I picked this number cause my syrange goes by 0.25 grads) every two weeks or I should add more time to hold after I make second 4% cut? Obviously if things go south I hold as much as neccessary to stabilize.

 

For the record I believe problems I encounteres after my cut on September had to do more with incorrect breathing exercises rather then cut itself.

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata
9 minutes ago, Zans said:

I feel as good as one can feel during WD. 

 

What does this mean?

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

@Altostrata

 

I sleep ok, have enough energy to move slowly outside for 2-3h, have enough awareness how to and when to shut off anxiety/panick, depression is moderate instead of severe. Don't know what else to add.

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata

When did these symptoms start?

Share this post


Link to post
Zans
1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

When did these symptoms start?

Intense ones I had from September to November and from then they subsided significantly. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

Another cut made. 4.4mg. Feeling some depression today but it's alright. After all I've been through bad mood is like annoying mosquito, I can ignore it without slapping it. Buddha nature achieved 😀

 

I've been walking around 10 miles lately. Likely overkill but spending 4h + outside regardless of air improved my sleep tremendously. I actually can't complain about insomnia anymore.

 

Strength to all here!

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

Several days ago I made another cut so down to 4.2mg. Things are going so smooth that it is actually sureal. In some ways I feel even better then before all this ordeal started.

 

I am continue to walk 10-14 miles slowly outside. Soon I am going to start working somewhat demanding physical work. Getting 5 hours + outside of flat walls been key to recovery I believe. My insomnia gone. Occassionally I'll sleep without dreaming and no waking up during night. Because I can sleep now I started to drink 2-3 cups of suggary coffees which are 90% of the time depression killer. I crave socializing and lots of time initiate meetings myself. Often times I hit flow and make jokes that cracks everyone up. I am suprised how well my memory, thought fluidity and expresing myself in general works. 

 

To sum up I believe all of the above because of time I spend slowly moving outside. After all health depends how well the body oxygenates itself and most efficient way to do it - move. Somebody on this site once said "you probably can do more than you think". I believe if one is not bed ridden forcing yourself out will be best medicine. This **** we're in won't suddenly pass on it's own, we must participate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Zans

I am at 4mg currently. Been surprised how nicely I am doing overall. Three days ago I started to work quite taxing physically job. Have 12h shifts and seemingly recover fine so far. I am glad I forced myself to walk 10 - 14 miles last couple months regardless how I felt.

 

We will see how it goes further. I am a bit anxious when I'll approach lower doses and how that will impact my physical capabilities but hopefully it's gonna be managable.

 

Wishing smooth healing to all

Share this post


Link to post

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use Privacy Policy