Danalee13: Lexapro / escitalopram taper

[Danalee13]

@manymoretodays please see my post above this one - this is the problem i'm in with the diazepam thing. any thoughts on this? thanks!!

[manymoretodays]

On 7/31/2019 at 7:22 PM, Danalee13 said:

The morning cortisol effect people discuss. Is that just a surge of anxiety and rapid heart rate?

 

On 8/2/2019 at 8:35 AM, Danalee13 said:

So, i could never take a benzo right now because i'm already trying to kick the sugar hangover out and wake up. you know what I mean? So maybe i switch the timing all together and since i feel like im stabilizing ish i switch it to later on around 4 PM. I'll see when i feel i need to take the benzo today.

 

But do you see how I couldn;t take it right now? I'm struggling to stay awake so i wouldn't want to take it now.

any thoughts?

 

Hi Danalee13,

Waking with panic and anxiety- managing the morning cortisol spike

And I think yes, that often a rapid heart rate can go along with this.

And good, good that, for now, this does not seem to be a symptom that you are having.

 

And on the sugar:

Low blood sugar and symptoms (withdrawal hypoglycemia)

So you don't want to go too heavy on the sugar and/or simple carbs right now.

Work on the complex carbs, protein, and good fats.  Frequent small feeds throughout the day.  This can help alot.  There are some ideas in that thread too.

I got started with the organic, virgin coconut oil after I got here.  It has many uses too.  Cooking and anti-inflammatory topically.  And oh boy, a decent sunscreen too!  No PABA.  Do you use much caffeine? 

 

I get it, on your job and all.  And what's been happening......  And your benzo is, after all a CNS(central nervous system) depressant.  And then, I think, but I don't know for sure, your doubling up on your doses, as well as adding in sometimes additional benzo's, might be counter to your healing right now.  The healing required, or re-adaption of your nervous system, to your Lexapro tapering(the more rapid tapering done before your arrival).  Your health is at least as important as your job, if not more so.  Some of your lethargy could sure be related directly to your benzo use of the previous day, rather than to the escitalopram W/D.  Do you follow my thinking here?

 

Again, Danalee, don't be shy with the notes.  Today is the 3rd of August.  I think that you got one set done, back on the 29th.  That will help us, and you so much.  And yes, a timing switch may be in order.  Generally.....we have you move dose timing by just an hour a day, rather than 4 whole hours in one day.  That old harm reduction again.  That's what we want you to shoot for.... harm reduction, AND an informed approach to doing things.   And then, it's going to be good to space it out from your Lexapro dosing too.

If you can, post a couple of days here, all at once, once you've got them on paper.

And excellent, that you are getting around the site, and wow, even have a tapering buddy I think.  You rock!

 

So notes, daily, with all your drugs taken, by name, doses, and all the rest too, over on the right side. 

All the rest being symptoms(rate 1-10), supplements taken, sleep, and you can include what you are eating too.  That might help you too.

 

I say puddings for you now and may be the time for lots of bread and butter too.  How tall are you?

 

I do see that the last taper on Lexapro was June 14th.  If you are okay, just HOLDING on that right now......we can try and get your benzo, use sorted now.  This might take just a little more time and patience is all.  And don't discount the suggests for working on non-drug coping now too.......getting some more tools and practices in place, daily.  You'll be glad you did. 

 

Best,

Weekend warrior wishes to you.

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited August 3, 2019 by manymoretodays
elaboration, additional thoughts

[Altostrata]

On 7/31/2019 at 6:22 PM, Danalee13 said:

The issue is truly that if I wake up lethargic and feel I don’t need Valium yet, I don’t want to take it. But I do agree it is better to be on a timely schedule. That particular day I was beyond tired and had to drive about 2 hours so was a bit worried taking a Valium also having insane lethargy at the same time. 

 

So its hard to know what to do. My job does require a lot of driving. I didn’t feel lethargic today. Thank god. I think I am stabilizing a bit on the 5 mg. Since June 14 I have been on 5 mg. But I do think stabilization is semi near as that wake up anxiety feeling hasn’t been coming too often. Actually in a week or two!! Beside a day or so. The morning cortisol effect people discuss. Is that just a surge of anxiety and rapid heart rate? 

 

What time of day does "a surge of anxiety and rapid heart rate" happen?

 

Are you dopey while driving? That is a Valium side effect, and it's not good while driving.

 

On 8/2/2019 at 7:35 AM, Danalee13 said:

Hey guys. So here is the issue yes. @Altostrata I want to be stable on when I am taking my diazepam dosage. - but my morning anxiety does feel better in general as ever since i got the 5 mg tablets prescribed from my doctor, i think everything started to become a bit smooth. I had the initial panic, then lethargy which i told you guys about, and now the anxiety is a lot better and is coming in waves pattern.

 

But because i came down so fast to 5 mg - I am going to stay on it for a wee bit longer than I normally would. and get the benzo timing thing under control.

 

Because here is the issue of today as well - 

I ate a ton of sugar last night. I have lost a ton of weight since the start of this taper, and i'm already skinny to begin with, so i'm really trying to put some weight on. I weight around 91 lbs. I have always been thing but not this thin. But i also have short gut syndrome, so if i remember correctly, before going on lexapro, i was always thin . but my weight does have to stabilize out. 

anyhow - i don't really like sugar, but i'm forcing myself to eat high calorie things to gain some weight, so i ate too much sugar again last night and today i woke up feeling like i literally got hit by a bus. UGH. Not lethargic feeling, but literally like a sugar hangover once again. i Keep getting those when i eat sugar. 

 

So, i could never take a benzo right now because i'm already trying to kick the sugar hangover out and wake up. you know what I mean? So maybe i switch the timing all together and since i feel like im stabilizing ish i switch it to later on around 4 PM. I'll see when i feel i need to take the benzo today.

 

But do you see how I couldn;t take it right now? I'm struggling to stay awake so i wouldn't want to take it now.

any thoughts?

 

Definitely allow time to stabilize on 5mg. Do not jump into tapering it.

 

Don't eat sugar.

 

DO NOT SCREW AROUND WITH YOUR BENZO SCHEDULE. No excuses.

[Danalee13]

yes, just a quick update - i ate a ton this weekend.  8 out of 10 days I eat more than the average girl my age. But still lost a lot of weight once taper started. So for the most part I am eating the same amount. I think the lexapro packed lbs on, as I hear it does do that.

 

Today I am having a massive headache but that could also be because of my period. I get period headaches once a month. Headaches have not been a withdrawal symptom for me at all. So I am assuming it is from my period.  I will write out some more notes when my headache goes away. It is very bad.

 

and @Altostrata yes i plan on being on 5 mg for a long while. Will get into more notes when this migraine goes away. I have to get a benzo schedule done right. but right now it is a bit hard for me to look at the screen,

 

I also on top of eating a good amount (i eat a ton of almond butter packets all day) - i introduced soylent into my diet. I used to drink this stuff - it is a drink of 400 calories. I dont replace meals with it - i think this will help in putting on some weight.- because i do eat a lot

[Altostrata]

Skipping doses causes serious symptoms like migraines and a lot else.

[Danalee13]

Hi @Altostrata - sorry I have gone rogue. So I had a doctor's visit and we went through a lot of things. The valium is not really working for me. Remember when i first posted on here 0 i was in complete panic mode? with those surges of anxiety. that had gotten better - and i started to have other symptoms like the lethargy, no appetite, headaches (but also i do get migraines sometimes). 

 

SO  - on sunday i felt the panic come back.  It had come back for a day or so here or there. I know it comes in waves, But on sunday it came back and it has been here on a daily basis. The valium is not working and it is not the right benzo for me during this time.  I saw my doctor the next day. We made a plan and I switched over to Klonopin and it helps SO much morel I am sticking to a schedule of 10 AM Klonopin .5 mg.  and then the thing is - during these panic days I get it at night as well - so need another .5 mg. BUT - when the wave stops, I dont know if i will need it at night. So I would like to stay on just the once per day, but the last few days I have needed it twice.

 

And no - while driving i do not feel drugged out - i never feel like that, just tired., but that was when i had major major lethargy. I havent felt like that again since that day actually. 

 

My appetite has been great. I am eating a lot and eating well. I am done with the sugar and feel a lot better in that sense.  Waiting for this wave of panic and surge of morning and night anxiety to go away. In the morning it starts on my way to work.It is pretty annoying because when I wake up I am so tired. I HAVE to drink coffee. but then i get anxious as hell. So today I barely had any coffee. still had the anxiety. just waiting for this panic mode to end. I hav to update my signature on change of benzo, 

 

Today I am feeling okay but this morning i was not.

[Danalee13]

@Altostrata Update: my switch over in med and taking it at exact time of day changed a lot. I do not feel panic or anxiety surge in morning. For the last 2 days now. 

 

I have not felt lethargy either and my appetite is well and good. Heavy appetite actually! 

 

Also - I usually do not get enough sleep as I believe I have mentioned in the past.  I sometimes even force myself to stay up and watch TV for no reason at all. For the last 3 or 4 nights I got a ton of sleep and the difference is incredible. This is something I have to make a priority. 

 

Also have cut out the sugar and wow what a difference. For years I never ate sugar anyway because I didn’t like it. But then I started to eat it to gain weight and then would have it late at night. And I would wake up with sugar hangovers. 

 

Since i have cut that out I am already feeling a big difference.  Super happy.  I think I have gained a pound or two as well. I think I mentioned to you that I have short gut syndrome. I only have half of my small intestine. It was a freak accident strangulation of my intestine at age 16. And so before going on lexapro I was always skinny. But not this skinny. Then I was about 108-110 lbs during the years on lexapro. 

 

When i I started to come off I started to drop weight and my lowest being around 90 pounds. That was about 3 weeks ago. I don’t have a scale but I think I’m around 95 pounds now. So I’m not sure if the weight loss is due to the taper and I’ll gain a lot back or if I’m just naturally skinny - like I was before lexapro - because of the operation. We will see when I am stabilized or off the lexapro. 

 

Xx today is a good day! I believe I am making a lot of progress. I still need to update my signature when I get to a computer. 

 

 

Sugar is the devil! 

[Altostrata]

Good to hear you found minimizing sugar to be so effective.

 

I guess you missed this?

On 8/3/2019 at 5:37 PM, Altostrata said:

DO NOT SCREW AROUND WITH YOUR BENZO SCHEDULE. No excuses.

 

On 8/8/2019 at 2:26 PM, Danalee13 said:

Hi @Altostrata - sorry I have gone rogue. So I had a doctor's visit and we went through a lot of things. The valium is not really working for me. Remember when i first posted on here 0 i was in complete panic mode? with those surges of anxiety. that had gotten better - and i started to have other symptoms like the lethargy, no appetite, headaches (but also i do get migraines sometimes). 

 

SO  - on sunday i felt the panic come back.  It had come back for a day or so here or there. I know it comes in waves, But on sunday it came back and it has been here on a daily basis. The valium is not working and it is not the right benzo for me during this time.  I saw my doctor the next day. We made a plan and I switched over to Klonopin and it helps SO much morel I am sticking to a schedule of 10 AM Klonopin .5 mg.  and then the thing is - during these panic days I get it at night as well - so need another .5 mg. BUT - when the wave stops, I dont know if i will need it at night. So I would like to stay on just the once per day, but the last few days I have needed it twice.

 

And no - while driving i do not feel drugged out - i never feel like that, just tired., but that was when i had major major lethargy. I havent felt like that again since that day actually. 

 

My appetite has been great. I am eating a lot and eating well. I am done with the sugar and feel a lot better in that sense.  Waiting for this wave of panic and surge of morning and night anxiety to go away. In the morning it starts on my way to work.It is pretty annoying because when I wake up I am so tired. I HAVE to drink coffee. but then i get anxious as hell. So today I barely had any coffee. still had the anxiety. just waiting for this panic mode to end. I hav to update my signature on change of benzo, 

 

Today I am feeling okay but this morning i was not.

 

Utterly confused about your drug changes and why you made them. Please post everything you've taken since August 1, with dosages and times of day you take them.

 

We need to know exact details of your Klonopin dosing. @Shep will help review.

 

You may not have felt the Valium was doing anything, but you probably were physiologically dependent on it anyway. Switching to Klonopin, which is stronger but shorter-acting, introduces even more likelihood some of your symptoms were breakthrough or rebound from the benzo.

 

Few doctors are able to identify adverse effects of benzos because they tend to be exactly the opposite of what you'd expect. On the other hand, feeling flat and dopey are very typical side effects of benzos.

 

Not sure where you're going here with your greater commitment to a benzo to deal with symptoms that might be drug side effects. What is it you're trying to do?

 

Please note that if you dig yourself in deeper with psychiatric drugs, we may not be able to dig you out. This is a site for going off drugs, not mixing more effective cocktails. Please have respect for our time.

[Shep]

26 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

You may not have felt the Valium was doing anything, but you probably were physiologically dependent on it anyway. Switching to Klonopin, which is stronger but shorter-acting, introduces even more likelihood some of your symptoms were breakthrough or rebound from the benzo.

 

@Danalee13 I'm just going to expand a bit on what Alto is saying here. You have gone off Valium cold turkey. Klonopin may or may not cover for this. Please note that due to Valium's long half-life of up to 200 hours (8 days), you may not feel the effects of withdrawal for several days or even a week. 

 

It's best to crossover slowly when doing a benzo crossover. 

 

On 8/8/2019 at 5:26 PM, Danalee13 said:

We made a plan and I switched over to Klonopin and it helps SO much morel I am sticking to a schedule of 10 AM Klonopin .5 mg.  and then the thing is - during these panic days I get it at night as well - so need another .5 mg. BUT - when the wave stops, I dont know if i will need it at night.

 

In your signature, you have "Valium 5 mg when start of a panic. Sometimes 10 mg."

 

Klonopin is 20 times stronger than Valium, so .5 mg Klonopin is equal to 10 mg Valium (see the equivalency chart - Benzo Equivalence Table). 

 

When you take .5 mg in the morning and .5 mg at night, that's 1 mg Klonopin total, which equals 20 mg of Valium. So you've made a massive updose in the benzo.

 

If you're interested in doing a proper crossover, we can help you with that here, but you're going to have to be very consistent with your dosing.  These types of abrupt changes can cause something called kindling. 

 

Kindling (sedative–hypnotic withdrawal)

 

The more abrupt changes you make, the more you destabilize your nervous system. Once that happens, it's very hard to fix. We recommend crossing over from one benzo to the next very slowly and with consistent dosing.

 

Please post if you wish to go over how to do this. If so, please do a drug and symptoms journal. Also include supplements and the number of hours you sleep each night.

 

On 9/27/2016 at 2:49 PM, Altostrata said:

In the course of discussion in your Introductions forum topic, you may be asked to keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern, including when you take your drugs, their dosages, and any symptoms. We ask this because there may be something we can do to reduce the symptoms.

 

What we need to see for every single day over several days is what symptoms you get before and after you take your drugs. If you're not taking any drugs and have withdrawal symptoms, we still need to see your symptom pattern throughout the day:

 

The time of day, dosage, and severity of symptoms are essential information. Include

 

- Time and dosage for all drugs taken throughout the day, psychiatric and non-psychiatric.

- Following each dose, note any symptoms. If you are having a reaction to the drug, it may take hours for a symptom to show up -- that's why we ask you to keep notes all day long.

- If you're not taking any drugs, your symptoms throughout the day.

- Your sleep pattern. Since so many drugs disturb sleep, if you find you're waking in the middle of the night, it could be from a drug you took earlier in the evening. If you're not taking any drugs, there may be ways you can improve your sleep.

And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, looking something like this:
 
6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

[Danalee13]

Hi guys. thank you so much. Haven’t been on because work has been so busy and yes you are correct.  I have not been feeling too well.  I believe it is the switch over.  

 

I need help but went to outline in the right  way when. I have a min. Just checking in. Battling e migraine all day. I will be back on when I feel a bit better guys. I know it’s the Benzo switch that’s causing my **** feeling. I am now tapering to it as you mentioned above. Will speak soon. I thank u sm 

[Shep]

3 hours ago, Danalee13 said:

I am now tapering to it as you mentioned above.

 

I'm confused with what you mean by "tapering" - I didn't mention tapering. I simply addressed the equivalency discrepancy in your crossover.  I can't give you any more than general information until you supply the requested information. 

 

Please note that changes in benzos (updoses and reinstatements) work best within 2 - 4 weeks of the last change, so if you're going to make any changes to accommodate the high dose of Klonopin (in comparison to the Valium you were previously taking), you may want to do that sooner rather than later. 

[Danalee13]

Listen @Altostrata .  This forum is great. A great way to learn how to taper well. I am distancing myself from it for right now while I work the Benzo dosage out with a doctor. 

 

Because it feels a bit scolding on here and don’t get me wrong it has been great. But it makes people feel as though they can’t be honest on what they are on. 

 

@Shep would love to PM with you or get back on here once I work my Benzo dosage out. I have been taking comprehensive notes every day so that I get on a specific dose.  I am all over the place and will not explain further so I can be chastised on here. Once I am stable and on a dose I will reach back out but I am going to take a break until my DOCTOR and I get me on one single Benzo dosage. 

 

Thank you all. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by manymoretodays
none

[manymoretodays]

Hi Danalee13,

Oh boy......I'm sorry you feel how you are feeling.  Welcome to WD.    And oh my gosh.....if you only knew or appreciated.......well, enough said.  We all do our best.

 

(problems with quoting, so just sharing this from your other post, Danalee13.)

"Listen @Altostrata .  This forum is great. A great way to learn how to taper well. I am distancing myself from it for right now while I work the Benzo dosage out with a doctor. "

 

Just thought I would post the link here to our Benzo Forum: Benzo tapering and recovery

You can just start a topic there, when you feel ready to discuss your decisions, and Doctors' input with Shep.  Post all your comprehensive notes there as well, preferably in the format we've shared with you above.

Then head on back here, for more specifics and support around your AD tapering.

I appreciate your honesty in reporting ALL your medications.  Many thanks for that.

 

Best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited August 16, 2019 by manymoretodays
quoted just a bit of now hidden, but intact, original post

[Danalee13]

@manymoretodays see, this kind of attitude is great and why I love this forum. You are not the reason I am distancing myself at all. and I will be back here soon once I am ready  thank you SO much. I appreciate everything so much and have learned a lot on here. I will be back sooner than you think! 

 

I am still stabilizing on the 5 mg lexapro - for an update on that. For right now - need to focus on the benzo and I'll be back once i get that under control and you have been amazing, THANK YOU! THANK YOU so much!

[Danalee13]

@manymoretodays this is what I am talking about:

 

"I guess you missed this?

  On 8/3/2019 at 8:37 PM, Altostrata said:

DO NOT SCREW AROUND WITH YOUR BENZO SCHEDULE. No excuses."

Other people feel the same way as me and have distanced themselves from it because of tihngs like this. Nobody responds well to this. But you have been amazing and the advice on here is great. Thank you again.

[manymoretodays]

Please check your PM box.  Little envelope icon at the top of the screen.

[intothewoods]

@manymoretodays, thank you from me too for helping @Danalee13. She has posted on my thread and been so eager to figure out these meds, to learn and to help others. 

 

You're a special mod @manymoretodays and we appreciate you. ❤️

[Altostrata]

Danalee, we work hard to give people the best peer support we can. We're all unpaid volunteers. The reason we do this is to keep people from getting hurt or hurting themselves with psychiatric drugs.

 

Your choice if you don't want to listen to what we so laboriously and carefully explain to you. But you cannot expect solicitous handholding once you show how little you respect our effort.

 

And that goes for anyone else who decides to "distance themselves." We peer support counselors are not a public utility. We don't have to serve everyone. Frustration and self-sacrifice among the staff is not the purpose of this site.

 

We're not miracle workers and sometimes we can't dig people out of their mistakes. We don't intend to burn ourselves out over people who are dedicated to working against themselves -- their will to self-sabotage is stronger than any volunteer's desire to help people. I truly hope that is not your situation.

[Danalee13]

hey guys! i'm back for an update!

 

I just wanted to let you know and say thank you for everything and all the help :). So I ended up taking a break and i took the last month to get down to a low dose benzo. I had been taking too much, not really knowing how much i was taking - and just going rogue. which was causing rebound anxiety FOR SURE!!!

 

so the last month i cut it all out beside a lower dose of ONLY klonopin and I feel like a different human.. all the symptoms I had had before are gone. I feel great. I am still on thr dosage of 5 mg lexapro since june 13. I did not want to touch that until i felt stable on the benzo front.

 

Now that i do, i am ready to make a drop on the lexapro again soon! I cant even begin to describe how different i feel and great.Truly grateful that I figured it out and am on a stable benzo dose. 

 

I am so happy to feel normal again....life is good! but now onto the SSRI taper again. i'm excited about it honestly.and ready to take it on  PS wil update my signature 

[manymoretodays]

Hi Danalee13,

That's great that you are feeling super.  I'm estimating that you have stabilized times, and dosages of benzo(?s), now for possibly only about 2-3 weeks?

I'm interested in what you have settled on with all of your medications/drugs. 

Can you clarify what you are now taking on a regular basis?  The good old logs, again.    Date.  Time on the left.  Drug by name, dosage, and any symptoms on the right.  So helpful, in making suggestions to you going forward.

 

It will be good to see your updated signature too, when you get to that.  Accounts Settings> signature

 

And then, as it's only been a couple of weeks, at best, with you getting your benzo intake stabilized, I think it might be best to wait a little longer before commencing Lexapro tapering.  At least another couple of weeks.  I think that may pay off in the long run.  Sometimes, when feeling really great, after medications/drug changes........well, often that can mean that you are still pretty sensitized to changes, and may be followed by a rockier path of WD, with more symptoms and all. 

 

Any non-drug coping skills gained, thus far?  I'm glad you took some time.  Did you break from your work schedule at all and demands there?  Or keep on keeping on with that?  By non-drug coping skills, I'm referring to things like, breathing exercises, meditation(comes in many forms), gentle exercise, etc.?

Have you gained your lost weight back?

 

Okay, welcome back Danalee. ❤️

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[manymoretodays]

Hi again Danalee13,

Also, I think, if I were you, I would take some time to do some planning for your Lexapro taper now.

I'm going to consolidate a few of the links to important information, from page 1, of your introduction, right here again.  So you can easily find them to refer to, with your planning.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage

Tips for tapering off Lexapro(excitalopram)

 

And then from Gridley

I use the AWS Gemini-20 scale, available on Amazon (not expensive).  I make a powder, weigh it on the scale and then pour it into a 00 size gelcap.  Or you can just weigh chunks and add or subtract.  That way you're getting a consistent dose every time, which you may not be just cutting or breaking.

 

Using a digital scale to measure doses

 

Panic and anxiety coping techniques:

Just click on the arrow in the upper right and it will take you right back to that post

 

And then a pearl from DejaVu too:

What is withdrawal syndrome?

^ indexed links to more in this one too

Most all of this applies to benzo changes, and WD too.....just saying, just so you know.

And I so do want you to consider taking further time, for your benzo changes to really settle, before restarting your Lexapro taper.

 

Do you plan to stick with weighing for your Lexapro decreases?

And did you transition over to the 5 mg tablets?

 

Hope this helps, and that you continue doing well enough.

Keep it simple, slow, and stable

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by manymoretodays
had double link, fixed

[Altostrata]

Good to hear, Danalee.

 

If you're only now stabilizing on a reduced dose of Klonopin, I would not change the Lexapro dosage for several months. You seem to have a habit of switching up your drugs, you need to let your nervous system rest.