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Matti

Matti: my intro

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Matti

Hello guys,

 

I've been reading this forum now and then for a couple years now. It has given me hope to read about other peoples struggles and realizing that alot of people are going through the same thing. Finally decided to create a profile.

 

My history with psych drugs started in 2007 April after me and my friends got hold of some methamphetamine and I reacted very badly to it(amphetamine psychosis that lasted a few days). Spent a week in a mental hospital and was released with four different meds to take.

 

After being released from hospital I was a mess with severe anxiety, insomnia. I was feeling hopeless and scared to death that I would get another psychotic episode.

 

I finally stabilised somewhat enough that I was able to go to school and continue with my life although I still had a lot of problems.

 

I quit all psych meds in 2011 except citalopram. Ofcourse I tried a fast taper not knowing better and sleeping became impossible. 

 

Second time I tried to quit was in late 2013 to early 2014. Again too fast. I got to zero and felt good for a couple months but then was hit with symptoms almost as bad as 2007. I went to the doctor and he put me back on citalopram and also seroquel 25mg at night to help sleep.

 

I got better over time but not as good as before. Over time the seroquel stopped working so I quit taking it propably around 2016.

 

The last few years have been bearable with symptoms coming and going.

 

I dropped my citalopram dose from 30mg to 20mg maybe 2016 end of the year. That didn't feel hard at all. But I made a mistake by dropping to 10mg July 2017. Horrible insomnia again.

 

I kept at that dose for a long time. Somewhat stabilised. Read the tapering info here and decided to try to do it slower. 

 

I started tapering around march 2018. About 10% a month, maybe too fast still. I dropped 2.5% every week to make the drops smaller. Did a hold at 3mg during the winter 2018-2019 following advice from my psychiatrist.

 

I got down to 1.52mg just last week. Then I ran into problems. I had worked way too much during the summer and found myself unable to relax or get enough sleep. Even though I had week off from work.

 

Last thursday I was hit with bad anxiety. Couldn't get sleep on sunday night, took 25mg left over seroquel hoping it would help but it just made me worse. I had to call in sick in the morning.

 

Went to a GP and she gave me a recipe for zopiclone which I used in the past for insomnia. She didn't push me to get back on high dose of citalopram, which was surprising to me. I told her about my tapering process and she was a bit confused haha.

 

The last couple nights I've been able to sleep and the anxiety has gone down a bit. Im on sick leave this week.

 

My anxiety was so high that I decided, maybe foolishly, to reinstate at 5mg. I've been on this dose now for three days and I started to wander if this is a too big rise in the dosage, maybe it would be better to take 3mg instead.

 

Im at a loss as to what I should do now. Continue at 5mg, maybe drop down to 3mg? What do you guys think?

 

Much love from Finland,

Matti

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Sassenach

Hi Matti.

 

Welcome to SA.

I am a junior mod and have referred your question to the senior mods.

6 hours ago, Matti said:

. Continue at 5mg, maybe drop down to 3mg?

For the moment my advice is to continue at 5mgs as too many changes can upset our central nervous system.

Stability is important.

6 hours ago, Matti said:

My anxiety was so high that I decided, maybe foolishly, to reinstate at 5mg. I've been on this dose now for three days and I started to wander if this is a too big rise in the dosage, maybe it would be better to take 3mg instead

 

6 hours ago, Matti said:

The last couple nights I've been able to sleep and the anxiety has gone down a bit.

Is the above the correct order of events? If so it would indicate that the updose is working.

 

Sassenach

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brassmonkey

Hi Matti-- welcome to SA.  I'm sorry to hear that you're having problems, it can get so frustrating trying to taper off of this stuff.  There are a number of factors that are adding up to cause the problems starting back with quitting the seroquel.  It sounds like you did a CT, is that correct?  Followed by two huge reductions in the citalopram, as you found out it can take a very long time for that to stabilize.  The recent 10% a month is the fastest that we recommend for anyone.

 

Updosing is always a tricky thing to do.  For most people their recent reductions have left their bodies in a highly sensitized state so any largeish increase can cause a real uptick in symptoms.  The purpose of an updose is to take the edge off of the symptoms without causing an adverse reaction.  I think 5mg is going to be too much, probably even 3mg. If you could work out a dose of 2mg that would be the best place to start.  Because of the bad wave you are having and the recent changes in dose it is going to take several week and possibly several months for things to settle down.  Once stable we can work out a taper plan and get things going again.

 

Thank you for giving us a signature block, it is very helpful to see what is going on at a glance.  On top of that we really need a diary of your daily symptom pattern: what you take, when you take it and the reaction you get.  Also things like sleep patterns, work patterns and the like.

 

That's enough for now, we will overload you with links about self help and the like over the next few posts.

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Matti
2 hours ago, Sassenach said:

Hi Matti.

 

Welcome to SA.

I am a junior mod and have referred your question to the senior mods.

For the moment my advice is to continue at 5mgs as too many changes can upset our central nervous system.

Stability is important.

 

Is the above the correct order of events? If so it would indicate that the updose is working.

 

Sassenach

Hello Sassenach,

 

It could be that the updose is working but I think the zopiclone I've taken now on the previous two nights has had a bigger effect. The zopiclone is just a temporary sleep aid though, they won't refill that prescription. But I remember back in 2012 it really helped me to get a week of sleep and feel better.

 

Brassmonkey, Im not sure if I accurately remember how the deal went with the seroquel last time. I remember cutting the tablets in half and that dose worked for a long time as a sleep aid for me. Then I propably dropped to zero as it stopped working.

 

Thank you guys so much. Seems to me there ain't a lot of people who understand these situations.

 

It feels that everytime I talk to a professional about these medications they don't have a clue about WD and give me a new prescription to something. I remember testing remeron as a sleep aid propably in 2017 and it made me feel so bad. Like I was stoned out of my mind the whole day after.

 

I'll post a diary tomorrow. I've seen them on other peoples posts.

 

All the best to you,

Matti

 

 

 

 

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Matti

Hello,

 

Here's how my last night and day have been:

 

11.40 PM Felt a bit anxious retiring to bed. Took 7,5mg zopiclone and read a book for about 20 minutes before drifring off.

 

4 AM woke up feeling restless. After a while was able to get back to sleep.

 

6 AM woke up again. Felt better and got back to sleep. Light sleep for a couple hours still, saw a lot of dreams, not the bad kind.

 

9.15 woke up. Stayed in bed for 30 min just reading stuff on my phone. Feeling a bit gloomy about the coming day.

 

10 AM took 4mg citalopram, I think I'll try to stabilise at this dose now for some time.

 

11 AM breakfast. Smoked a cigarette. Took magnesium 100mg. Drank some green tea with my mother. Im staying with my parents this week since they live quite near and there's a nice forest near them where I can walk and relax a little.

 

1 PM my friend who is on holiday called and we headed outdoors. We bought some ice cream and went to a nearby river. Watched the fish and just walked around. Took 2mg nicotine gum.

 

3.30 PM we met my friends girlfriend and went to burger king. I felt a bit claustrophobic walking in the mall and more so in the small burger king with lots of people and noise. My appetite hasn't returned completely but I was able to finish my meal. Took 2mg nicotine gum.

 

After eating we went swimming, after that my friends wanted to go do some pull ups and stuff. I did some light calisthenics but felt tired and my heart was pounding hard.

 

8.30 PM headed home. Ate some food and smoked a cigarette.

 

9.30 PM went to sauna with my dad.

 

 

All in all this was a very good day. My anxiety usually is a bit higher a couple hours after waking up and then subsides. 

 

I felt more anxious than normal while eating at the burger king. Physically I feel a bit exhausted and my appetite isn't good still. 

 

But today was easier than yesterday.

 

Im really lucky that a good friend of mine is on holiday this week and has a lot of free time to hang out with.

 

Soon off to bed.

 

Good night,

Matti

 

 

 

 

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Matti

Hello guys,

 

Just writing a little update.

 

Been staying now at 4mg citalopram. Most days have been allright, with little anxiety, seems my mood has also improved a bit. Not so much depressive ruminations as before the updose. I've been taking 5mg zopiclone now at nights, instead of 7,5mg I took earlier. 

 

This week I went back to work and the week went ok. The situation at work is pretty messed up though, they are laying off people and things change fast. 

 

Finally on Friday my boss decided to lay me off as well. I cleaned my lockers and returned my overalls and said my hasty farewells to my workmates. It all happened so quickly. Worked there for four years and I might never go back there.

 

Last night I had an anxiety attack going to sleep. I guess its this big change now that caused my anxiety to ramp up. It seemed my nervous system was on overdrive, heart was racing and thoughts out of control.

 

Now I have two weeks holiday and then I am officially unemployed. Im not too concerned because financially Im ok and the unemployment benefits are pretty good in Finland.

 

My colleague from my previous workplace has also asked me if I could work some hours there, so theres a good chance they could hire me full time. But still the anxious mind plays tricks on me time to time and gets me worrying.

 

For the time being Im going to focus on getting myself together, spending time with friends and family.

 

Sorry for the long posts, to me it seems Im ranting on and on like an old lady :)

 

Maybe I can get a sort of diary going now that I have free time on my hands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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ChessieCat

Sorry to hear that you are now unemployed.  It's not unusual for symptoms to ramp up when we have added stress.  You might find that it takes a while for you to accept that you have lost your job, especially if you enjoyed it.  When we have a change that affects us then we can go through a period of grief, which is entirely normal so it's important to recognise that it's okay to feel down about it.  Just make sure you pull out and use your non drug coping techniques.

 

My daughter gave me some good advice which can help nip emotional spirals in the bud.  It's a good idea to check in with yourself a few times during the day and assess how you are feeling.  Maybe set an alarm/reminder so that you don't forget.  That way you can assess how you are coping and even if you think you are feeling okay, you can still use the reminder and do some relaxation technique.

 

And also remember that starting something new is also stressful.  Lots of self care needed over the coming weeks.

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Matti

Thanks for dropping in ChessieCat.

 

The layoff was to be expected since the firm has been doing poorly for quite some time.

 

My feelings are a bit mixed regarding the whole thing. On the other hand it's something I have to give up but then again new possibilities come with the change.

 

I remember while being on high dose of ADs things "just happened" and I was "ok with it". Emotions were blunted. Now it seems Im in the opposite end of the spectrum. It feels good to be in touch with my feelings, but many times I react so strongly that it's overwhelming.

 

 

 

 

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ChessieCat

I was working for a company for 4.5 years at a job I really enjoyed, in a great environment with nice co-workers.  About 6-8 months before I was retrenched we were told that the company was being bought by a bigger company and there was a possibility of being taken on by them.  I never bothered looking for a job and ended up with no job.  It was a real blow to me and that, together with a couple of other major life stressors I ended up having a major breakdown, even though I was taking citalopram, which I now believe had reached tolerance.

 

It took me about 5 years to recover from all of that.

 

It was because of what happened to me that I wrote what I did.  Sometimes we don't realise the large impact that things can have on us and I wanted to make sure that you were aware of it and to look after yourself.

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Matti

Last couple days have been ok. Anxiety comes and goes through the day. 

 

Yesterday got to sleep about 22.30 after reading a bit.

 

Woke up at ~7 AM from a nightmare. Tried to sleep some more until 8 AM. I'll try to follow a steady sleep schedule from now on.

 

Had some breakfast. Took citalopram 4mg at 9.20. 

 

10.40 AM: Left home, chatted with my landlord a bit outside. Biked 10km to meey my friend. We bought some sandwiches and then he had to leave for work.

 

Now I'm just hanging outside. Went to a photo place to take pictures for my new passport, bought a bell for my bike.

 

I will try to do some exercise every day. Yesterday I went running, first time in over a year. Only ran for 3km. The endorphins make me feel good, at least for a couple hours usually. I just have to be careful not to overdo it, I've had some trouble in the past with exhausting myself too much.

 

Have a good day,

Matti

 

 

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Matti

Been feeling a bit rough these couple of days. Lowered the zopiclone dose to 3,75mg - half a tablet. Last night was second night at that dose. Slept about 5 hours, had some dreams a bit uncomfourtable but not nightmarish.

 

Seeing friends helps and getting outside or doing something with my hands. Yesterday I spent a couple hours helping my friend renovate a house he bought recently.

 

I do get tired quickly so I have to sit down to rest often - small bursts of activity, big tasks are now on hold.

 

On the positive I'm seeing my therapist on Friday. My friend is having a party on Saturday, I hope the weather is good.

 

Next week I'm going to have lunch with some former colleagues from the place I used to work back in 2015. Working there part time is the plan we're going to discuss.

 

I hope I'll stabilise a bit during the coming weeks. I guess it's best just to stay on 4mg now for a while.

 

Hope the best to you all,

Matti

 

 

 

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Sassenach

Hi Matti

 

It's great to see you are improving so quickly and doing all the right things for recovery.

Exercise is good but as you said be sure not to overdo it.

It is tempting on good days to try and "catch up" but never seems to work out that way.

It is definitely best to stay on your current dose for at least a month, and only taper again if you have had a good period of stability.

People often try and plan dates for tapers which is completely the wrong attitude.

Your body will tell you when you are ready. It is better to feel well now and taper safely later, rather than the go fast and back into W/D.

Please also be careful not to reduce the Zopiclone too quickly as that can have a knock on effect when your CNS not fully stabilised.

I hope this does not seem downbeat, because you doing great.

Keep up the good work.

 

Sassenach

 

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Matti
On 8/7/2019 at 7:54 PM, Sassenach said:

Hi Matti

 

It's great to see you are improving so quickly and doing all the right things for recovery.

Exercise is good but as you said be sure not to overdo it.

It is tempting on good days to try and "catch up" but never seems to work out that way.

It is definitely best to stay on your current dose for at least a month, and only taper again if you have had a good period of stability.

People often try and plan dates for tapers which is completely the wrong attitude.

Your body will tell you when you are ready. It is better to feel well now and taper safely later, rather than the go fast and back into W/D.

Please also be careful not to reduce the Zopiclone too quickly as that can have a knock on effect when your CNS not fully stabilised.

I hope this does not seem downbeat, because you doing great.

Keep up the good work.

 

Sassenach

 

 

Hey Sassenach,

 

Thanks for the encouragement!

 

I'll definately be more careful with tapering from now on. In general I have to pace myself better and learn to listen myself. It's kind of like training a sport, you can keep on doing more and more then suffer an injury. Those injuries hamper your long term progress.

 

The zopiclone is a bit of a problem. I only got prescribed 30 pills. Worked fine taking one pill a night, but I have to cut the dose down to prevent the situation where I run out of it while on a high dose. Getting a refill would be tricky I'd guess. They would propably recommend taking seroquel but I don't want to go down that road again. 

 

Thanks for the word of advice, not downbeat at all, just cautionary.

 

Matti

 

 

 

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Matti

Just a small update.

 

Last week I had some great days, slept like a rock, watched some movies in the evenings. I really got to a point where I was enjoying myself and was able to relax at night. My parents were away on holiday so I stayed at their place to look after their cat. I really love that cat, he's so relaxed. Helped my friend renovate the house he bought.

 

Now I've had trouble sleeping since the weekend. I stayed up too long a couple nights and my sleep schedule was wrecked, something I have to be more mindful of in the future.

 

I did "relocate" to my own apartment and the sound of the traffic from the nearby highway seems to bother my sleep. And my neighbour has this old american car that makes a hell of a noise when she starts it up in the mornings.

 

I tried to cut the zopiclone dose, but didn't have any luck. Maybe I'll make a liquid to make the cuts smaller and easier.

 

Been exercising regularly now. One day at the gym, then one day running or cycling and third day off. 

 

Weird headache bothers me many times and my eyes feel heavy. Anxiety in the evenings, lot of chitter in my head as I try to fall asleep. Just random stuff, imagery - normally that is just a sign of my mind drifting off but now I seem to interpret it as menacing because of the anxiety.

 

I hope for more of those good days and try to plough my way through the sh*tty ones. 

 

Positive things:

 

- Met my dear old friend yesterday, haven't seen her in months. We went walking in the forest by a lake and I swam a bit. Had some great conversations.

 

- I've found some work at a previous place I worked in. The pay is good but they can't offer me many hours. Have to see how it goes, first day is on Friday.

 

- I cleaned my apartment!

 

- Weekend is coming soon.

 

 

Hope you all doing well,

Matti

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Matti

Diary of today:

 

0.20 AM: Went to bed, was feeling anxious about going to work in the morning.

 

1.00 AM: Drifted off to sleep.

 

4.00 AM: Woke up a bit nervous and looked at the clock. Was able to drift off quite soon.

 

7.30 AM: Woke up to the lovely sounds of my neighbour starting that hell machine of hers(old noisy car).

 

8 AM: Got up, ate some light breakfast, drank a cup of green tea, took 4mg citalopram, nicotine gum and headed to work.

 

9 AM - 12 AM: Felt anxious, tired and trying to make sense of the new work. Well I worked there for many years in the past but things have changed since then.

 

12.00 AM: Went to have lunch with two coworkers. Chatted a lot. Drank one cup of black tea. Nicotine gum. Felt better after lunch and was able to concentrate on the work.

 

3.30 PM: Work finished. Took my car to the main office to sign the contract. Saw more old colleagues.

 

4 PM: Drove to the grocery store. Lots of traffic and rain pouring. Feeling alright.

 

5 PM: Dropped off the groceries to my mom.

 

6.30 PM: Writing this now. I feel the day went ok. Now I've a bit of headache, feel a bit off.

 

 

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Matti

Hello fellow survivors.

 

I've been tapering the zopiclone lately. I've been going down in 0,75mg increments from 3,75mg. I was at 3mg for five days. Have been at 2,25mg for three days now.

 

I've been having some problems now with waking up after 3-4 hours of sleep. Last night and thursday night. Friday night I had a good sleep.

 

I wake up because of the dreams Im having. They are very vivid and chaotic, disturbing in content. After waking up I feel confused and anxious, in a panicky state and getting back to sleep is hard. As soon as I start to drift back to sleep the madness begins again.

 

Anyone have any advice to offer or similar experiences? 

 

 

 

 

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ChessieCat

From your drug signature it looks like you made a reduction from 5mg to 4mg citalopram near the end of July.  That is a 20% reduction.  It might be delayed withdrawal symptoms from that.

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Matti

Hey ChessieCat.

 

Even if I took the 5mg dose for only three days? On July 22nd I updosed from 1.52mg to 5mg, then three days later I dropped to 4mg.

 

 

 

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ChessieCat

Sorry I missed that date.  Please add the date tapered to 1.52mg instead of just stating July.  Thanks.

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Sassenach

Hi Matti

Chessiecats points may still be valid.

The up and down dose may have upset your sleep patterns.

Have you tried soothing music through earphones or on speaker at night.

Sassenach

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Matti

Thanks ChessieCat, I edited my signature. I hope it's better now.

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Matti

Hey Sassenach.

 

It's true, there have been a lot of modifications on my medications lately. 

 

I do listen to soothing music if I wake up in fright. Some songs by Mark Knopfler seem to help a lot sometimes.

 

Usually I feel alright when going to sleep but the anxiety hits in the middle of the night. 

 

 

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Matti

I read about zopiclone and seems that it's a really potent drug. Many people have a difficult time with withdrawal, nightmares being a common symptom.

 

Some call it a "benzo in disguise", because technically it's not a benzo but it acts in similar ways in the brain. Many people have gotten addicted to this stuff and taking huge amounts as the tolerance builds up.

 

It may be a rough couple weeks for me.. Im happy that I've got some left to make a gradual taper and that I only took the full dose for a week.

 

 

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Altostrata

Matti, it might be a good idea to hold on tapering zopiclone for a week or so, let your sleep recover. And, of course, keep your citalopram dosage steady.

 

The "z drugs" for sleep are related to benzodiazepines.

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Matti

Thanks for your input Altostrata, I appreciate it. 

 

I've been on the same dose now for 7 days(2.25mg). Sleep has been a bit better couple of days. I've now taken half the dose before going to sleep and half when I wake up about 4 hours later. Seems to work better.

 

Have been able to read a book or watch TV in the evenings. Anxiety is there but manageable.

 

I can't do any long holds on this med unfortunately, I'm going to run out soon. I'm almost sure that if I go to a doctor they won't give me a refill. Propably tell me to quit CT or write me seroquel/remeron or something else.

 

But I did plan a smoother taper. I am planning to go down 0.375mg every 5 days or so.

 

Maybe when I get to really low doses I can make even smaller cuts and hold for longer.

 

I'm not going to taper the citalopram anytime soon. Holding at 4mg.

 

Last time(years ago) I didn't have this much trouble with the zopiclone. But then I was on 30mg citalopram. 

 

 

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Matti

Hello guys,

 

Got a nasty back spasm yesterday. Propably hurt my back in the gym. After that I went and did some shoveling in my friends garden for a couple hours, and then it started to stiffen up and hurt.

 

Besides the back hurting it was a nice day, saw lots of friends. We were clearing my friends back yard from weeds and cutting up some firewood. My friends mother made meat loafs for us, delicious.

 

I took some muscle relaxant before going to bed. I slept all through the night so I didn't take my usual second dose of zopiclone.

 

My back is a lot better now. Have to be careful with it for a few days though.

 

Had some success today fixing my car. Might go for a jog soon, maybe pizza afterwards.

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Matti

A small update:

 

My back is feeling ok again.

 

I dropped to 1.5mg zopiclone a few days ago.

 

On the mental side things are going up and down. Some days feel allright, other days feel lousy. Same story with my sleep, some nights good and then some nights are difficult.

 

Lately I've felt really irritated and unable to concentrate. Small tasks have felt like they take all the willpower and concentration I have. Often I get exhausted and agitated.

 

That leads to feelings of helplessness and dreading the future. 'Will I always feel like this' - is a question that often comes to my mind. When does this suffering end and I can get back to living my life.

 

Last night I woke up after 2 hours of sleep and couldn't fall asleep again for a few hours. Finally I was able to get back to sleep for another 4 hours and I felt good when I woke up.

 

It's interesting that sometimes I sleep for 8 hours but I don't really feel rested in the morning. Other times I sleep for 5 hours and feel restored afterwards.

 

The weather here has turned colder and rainier. It seems that the summer has ended. Last week was sunny and warm.

 

I will be heading to our summer cottage on monday with my friend and his dog. 

 

Anyways,

Have a good day all

 

 

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Matti

On Monday night I took my last dose of zopiclone - 0.375mg.

 

Tuesday night I slept very poorly, but last night went better already.

 

During the last 10 days or so I've been feeling a bit better. Sleeping has been easier, except for that Tuesday night.

 

I hope this improvement in sleep quality is a continuing kind of thing. I envy bears, they get to sleep all through winter. If I could pick two months to skip they would be November and December.

 

 

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Matti

Well,

 

I've had trouble sleeping again.

 

It started with staying up too late on Saturday and maybe also having a beer. Then on Sunday I couldn't get to sleep in the evening. Just a couple hours and took some valerian root to help. That caused me to have very vivid dreams and I woke up feeling very anxious. Last night was also bad.

 

Maybe I'll try some melatonin next night. Only 0.5mg or so. I have to remember to stay away from coffee and alcohol. They seem to affect me negatively. Tea I find much gentler, doesn't make me jittery like coffee.

 

Other symptoms I have on and off: anxiety, restlesness, lack of energy/motivation, "neuro emotions", lack of joy - this has improved slightly, exercise, sauna and swimming in cold water make me feel good most of the time.

 

Short term goals for me: stay away from alcohol and coffee, don't stay up late intentionally, establish a regular sleep schedule, put the phone away 2 hours before bed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Matti

Last week has been difficult. Some days I feel better, other days terrible headaches and in general down and anxious and not getting much done. Been a little over two weeks now without zopiclone. Might be that what's making me feel a bit rattled.

 

Exercise seems to help. I try to go to the gym three times a week, running maybe once a week, some walks in the woods.

 

Yesterday I got hit with a bad cold. I've been mostly housebound for two days with fever. I've been sleeping a lot, helps the time pass.

 

Have been taking magnesium now 200mg at night and a bit of fish oil.

 

Oh, and I started to keep a daily journal/log on a notebook.

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