Bigbird: Paxil / paroxetine withdrawal

[Gridley]

2 hours ago, Bigbird said:

I feel so guilty not being able to be a normal productive person

 

I'm sorry you're feeling low.  Antidepressant withdrawal has to be one of life's most difficult trials.  You have no reason to feel guilty about not being productive.  This is your job now, healing.  It's only been two months since you updosed, and I know that seems like a long, long time, especially when the nights stretch out too, but you will stabilize.  It will take longer, I'm afraid, but you will stabilize.  Patience is very important.  

 

I take my Melatonin around 8:00, which is when I go to bed.  Any time around then is fine.  You could start with a very low dose, like 0.25mg (if you want to).

 

It's very good you're doing the guided meditation and legs on the wall.  Sleep problems are very, very common.   Waking up a lot is also common.  Not sleeping well is very hard but you are still healing even if you don't feel it or realize it.  These drugs are strong and your system is working very hard to get back to normal.  You will make it.  Just give it time.

[Bigbird]

Thanks Gridley, your always so helpful. I’m usually a very productive person and this isn’t easy for me feeling this exhausted. Do you think that I will feel better within the next few months. It frightens me and I start what iffing and worry that I’ll be in this same place in a few more months. It’s hard to imagine I’m healing, but then that must the reason for the fatigue. Thanks for your support, I appreciate you so much.😊

[Gridley]

10 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

Do you think that I will feel better within the next few months.

Yes, I do.  

[Bigbird]

Thank you my friend!🤗 hugs

[Bigbird]

Good morning Gridley, I hope your own taper is going well and your feeling better. I’m still the same. I’m only getting 31/2 to 4 hours of broken sleep a night. I do the yoga meditation and take.25 mg of melatonin around 9:30 pm,  magnesium 50 mg, dark room, eye mask. Still having poor sleep. I’m really discouraged. My body has this jittery feeling most of the day, especially after little sleep. Also I noticed my hair has been thinning, most likely the stress from withdrawal. I read the link on the site saying it is possible. I’m not sure what to do, my family is frustrated with how I am, and I’m worried myself.  I still can only manage the basics around the house and take my dogs for a short walk. I still haven’t been driving and living my normal life. Is this normal? I don’t know what to do, I’m afraid. This has been the longest two months of my life. Any suggestions?, I really feel alone and need some support. I’m sorry I wish I had more positive news. Thank you.

[Gridley]

31 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

I still haven’t been driving and living my normal life. Is this normal? I don’t know what to do, I’m afraid. This has been the longest two months of my life.

 

I'm afraid it is normal.  You tapered the Paxil very quickly, and now your body is trying to catch up. In this type of situation, your body needs to heal (which is happening every moment), and one of the ways your body is helping you heal is by making it necessary for you to take it easy and not push yourself to drive, to do stressful activities.  You are doing exactly the right thing, Basics around the house and a short walk with your dog is great.   I understand your family is frustrated but you need to take it very easy while you are in this fragile state.

 

I know lack of sleep is very wearing.  Four hours of broken sleep isn't great but it is sleep and more than some get.   Keep doing your techniques.  You might try  to add one or two more from the list I gave you a while back.  

 

As I've said, two months is not long at all for an update to stabilize.  Four or five months or more is normal.  I know this is discouraging, but you will make it.  You are doing all the right things.  It just takes a frustratingly long time but you'll get there.

 

For the jitters during the day, you could dissolve magnesium powder in water and sip it throughout the day. This can really help.

 

 

[Bigbird]

4 minutes ago, Gridley said:

 

I'm afraid it is normal.  You tapered the Paxil very quickly, and now your body is trying to catch up. In this type of situation, your body needs to heal (which is happening every moment), and one of the ways your body is helping you heal is by making it necessary for you to take it easy and not push yourself to drive, to do stressful activities.  You are doing exactly the right thing, Basics around the house and a short walk with your dog is great.   I understand your family is frustrated but you need to take it very easy while you are in this fragile state.

 

I know lack of sleep is very wearing.  Four hours of broken sleep isn't great but it is sleep and more than some get.   Keep doing your techniques.  You might try  to add one or two more from the list I gave you a while back.  

 

As I've said, two months is not long at all for an update to stabilize.  Four or five months or more is normal.  I know this is discouraging, but you will make it.  You are doing all the right things.  It just takes a frustratingly long time but you'll get there.

 

For the jitters during the day, you could dissolve magnesium powder in water and sip it throughout the day. This can really help.

 

 

I’m only guessing I’m getting four hours. I’m feeling so desperate and exhausted and very needy of support. I appreciate you responding. I’ve  never felt so low.

[Gridley]

22 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

I’ve  never felt so low.

I wanted to clarify that as time passes you will gradually start feeling better.  You won't feel this bad. 

[Bigbird]

3 minutes ago, Gridley said:

I wanted to clarify that as time passes you will gradually start feeling better.  You won't feel this bad. 

Thanks Gridley, I’m in such need of some positive encouragement. My husband keeps thinking I should see my doctor but I know all they will recommend is more medication and want to get off this drug or I never will.  I appreciate your support and I hope that your doing well.

[Gridley]

28 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

I know all they will recommend is more medication and want to get off this drug

Yes, that is all doctors know how to do is throw more drugs at you.  One good thing about your situation is that you are down to a really low dose of Paxil, which means that once you stabilize and are ready to taper again, you won't have far to go.

[Bigbird]

I agree, but I’m concerned when I start tapering will I end up like this or when I get to zero? I get mixed messages from this board, it’s a little scary.

[Gridley]

15 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

but I’m concerned when I start tapering will I end up like this or when I get to zero?

 

No, you will not end up like this because you are going to taper very, very slowly down to zero.  You may have some symptoms but they will be manageable.  There will also be some waves and windows post-zero, but, again, nothing like what you're going through now.

[Bigbird]

Good news, thank you, I kick myself for not going slower, all because I didn’t have any symptoms until the bottom of the taper. Thank you my friend!😊

[Frogie]

4 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

Good news, thank you, I kick myself for not going slower, all because I didn’t have any symptoms until the bottom of the taper. Thank you my friend!😊

Listen to Gridley. He knows exactly what's he is talking about.

Slow and steady wins the race!

 

Take care,

Frogie xx

[Bigbird]

I agree, he’s a great human being. If I could just get this sleep ironed out.

[Frogie]

8 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

I agree, he’s a great human being. If I could just get this sleep ironed out.

You will. I had sleep problems too.

 

I put a link on my page to my Off Topic. so we can talk!

 

Looking forward to it 😊

 

Take care,

Frogie xx

[Bigbird]

Good morning Gridley,

Just a few questions for you. When I stabilize at this dose  will I feel like I did during the previous parts of my taper, where I felt pretty normal and had only mild withdrawal symptoms that went away as I adjusted during my month wait between dosage reductions. Or am I going to stay more like where I am at the moment? ( hopefully not ) Also have you ever been un stabilized   like I am for 10 weeks or longer like I currently am? How did you cope?    Do you understand withdrawal insomnia? I’ve read the thread on this board, how do you interpret the withdrawal insomnia? 

 I hope your doing well and feeling good yourself. I appreciate all that you do and really appreciate and am grateful for your support. 

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, Bigbird said:

Just a few questions for you. When I stabilize at this dose  will I feel like I did during the previous parts of my taper, where I felt pretty normal and had only mild withdrawal symptoms that went away as I adjusted during my month wait between dosage reductions. Or am I going to stay more like where I am at the moment? ( hopefully not )

No, it won't be as bad as now.  

 

When you stabilize, you will be in a state of what we call WDNormal (withdrawal normal).  Brassmonkey, one of our moderators, described WDnormal as follows:

 

"WDnormal is the overall baseline of where you are in general. The place you are when you're not feeling good, but you're not feeling bad. Sort of a rolling average of the past couple of months between the windows and waves.  Watching the level of WDnormal is a good indicator that things are improving.  Over time you should be seeing a raising of the standard for WDnormal.  Like how you're feeling now is better than say six months ago. It changes very slowly but is a very good indicator.

 

 Many people have the idea that stability is feeling good again, when in fact it's feeling the same level of blah day after day with no big swings to the better or bad."

 

 

Quote

 

Also have you ever been un stabilized   like I am for 10 weeks or longer like I currently am? How did you cope?   

 I hope your doing well and feeling good yourself. I appreciate all that you do and really appreciate and am grateful for your support. 

 

Yes, I was unstabilized back in 2016, before I had discovered SA.  I tapered the wrong drug (a sedating drug, Imipramine), instead of what is recommended, the activating drug, Lexapro that I was also taking.  I also tapered too fast, 10% every three weeks, and didn't pay attention to my symptoms of increasing and constant anxiety. I just kept tapering and got to a pretty low dose.  I then discovered SA, learned about updosing, and updosed.  It took 4-5 months for me to stabilize and for the anxiety to improve.  I coped with meditation and a lot of the legs on the wall yoga pose, also mild walking.

 

1 hour ago, Bigbird said:

Do you understand withdrawal insomnia? I’ve read the thread on this board, how do you interpret the withdrawal insomnia? 

 

Insomnia sone of the most common withdrawal symptoms.  Altostrata, founder of SA, wrote the following about withdrawal insomnia:

 

"It's an unfortunate fact that antidepressants destroy REM sleep, and sleep problems in withdrawal are a legacy of this.

You may find you wake every 1.5-2 hours, and sometimes can't get back to sleep. This is because of the waves in the sleep cycle. When you rise towards the top of the cycle, which in normal people is closest to waking, you break through and wake up."

 

If you want more information, Google SurvivingAntidepressants.org withdrawal insomnia

 

Gridley

Edited October 3, 2019 by Gridley

[Bigbird]

Thanks Gridley, I hope your well.😊

[Bigbird]

Good morning Gridley, 

I'm still the same, insomnia, exhaustion, tingling in feet and hands, hands get really hot and tingle.I awaken during the night and get completely drenched in sweat. I’m starting to feel very depressed. I’m finding coping very difficult and I don’t know what to do. I don’t know if I can continue like this much longer. The days and nights are so long and how I feel is on my mind pretty much all of the time, very difficult to ignore. How do I continue? I’m not living a normal life at all, house bound. I’m so exhausted to try and maintain my home and it’s all going to my husband who is tired and concerned for how I’m doing. Please , I know there isn’t much you can do, any words of advice or hope for me? I hope that your well and your symptoms have settled down. Thank you Gridley 😊

[Gridley]

40 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

Please , I know there isn’t much you can do, any words of advice

 

I'm sorry you're feeling so terrible.  It's now been around 2 1/2 months since you updosed from 2mg to 2.5mg Paxil.  As bad as your symptoms are, would you say they have improved since the updose or are they around the same or are they worse?

[Bigbird]

I think they are the same, sometimes I think worse, but that could be my frustration with the entire situation.

[Gridley]

4 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

I think they are the same, sometimes I think worse, but that could be my frustration with the entire situation.

 

I'm going to ask the other mods about the advisability of updosing an additional 0.5mg.

[Bigbird]

Thanks, hopefully it won’t makes things worse. Appreciate your help.

[Bigbird]

One concern is that I make my own suspension, I mix it the same every time. I know it’s not the most accurate, but I don’t seem to have any other options, I had the pharmacy make it and it would be need to be made every two weeks and I reacted badly to it the first night, no sleep.  No liquid in Canada.  Sorry to ramble, just afraid to make things worse. I always turn to you for encouragement when I’m feeling low. Thanks for your support 

 

[Gridley]

3 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

I always turn to you for encouragement when I’m feeling low. Thanks for your support 

I'm happy to help.  I wouldn't worry about your suspension.  Since you mix it the same every time, any variances would be inconsequential.

 

Sometimes it takes a while to get a response from the other mods. I'll let you know as soon as I hear anything.

 

 

[Bigbird]

Thanks, I kind of hope they say that I stay here at this dose, I think I’m over reacting because I’m frustrated. I have a good day then bad day, I’m impatient I guess. My family thinks that I’ve just plateaued. Thanks again

[Gridley]

2 hours ago, Bigbird said:

Thanks, I kind of hope they say that I stay here at this dose,

 

Let's just stay where you are.  That is my suggestion.  I'll erase the message to the other mods.  As I said before, it can take many months to stabilize from an updose and you're just 2 1/2 months in.  You will make it fine.

[Bigbird]

Thanks Gridley, I think I’m letting my emotions rule, I’ve made it this far why go backwards now. I guess I just get desperate and look for words of encouragement, you always make me feel

much better when I reach out to you. I feel not understood and alone. I need to accept that what I’m feeling is withdrawal and that only time will change anything. Thanks , I hope your doing ok yourself?😊

[Bigbird]

Good morning Gridley, I hope that your well.  I had an ok day yesterday, trying to keep myself positive the best that I can. The last few nights and throughout my withdrawals over the last few months, I’ve been awakening during the night ,  anytime, 3 am sometimes etc. When I awaken it’s with a surge of anxiety, then I immediately start sweating. ( must be cortisol) It’s really difficult to fall back to sleep, I can feel my heart beating faster.  I can lie in bed for hours! Have you experienced this?, any suggestions on how to deal with it? I’m not feeling so well this morning, really exhausted. Again, wishing that your doing well with your own taper. Thanks 😊

[Gridley]

17 minutes ago, Bigbird said:

It’s really difficult to fall back to sleep, I can feel my heart beating faster.  I can lie in bed for hours!

 

I'm glad you had an ok day yesterday.  It's very good that you're trying to keep yourself positive.  That is so important.

 

I wake up in the middle of the night, sometimes at 2:00, sometimes later.  I take 0.5 Melatonin before I go to bed.  The last two nights I've been keep 0.25 Melatonin by the bed for when I wake up, and it has helped me get back to sleep.  So you might consider Melatonin.  

 

Melatonin for sleep   It's best to start at a very low dosage, such as .25mg, and gradually increase if needed to the lowest effective dose.  

 

I'm sorry you're going through all this, but you will make it through and feel better.  

 

 

[Bigbird]

Thanks Gridley, I’ll try .25 before bed and maybe .25 when I awaken. 
Thanks again.

[Bigbird]

Hi Gridley, I just came back from the doctors. I’m having some blood work done. He recommends that I increase the paroxetine up to 4 mg, the last dose that I felt good at. Thoughts?

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, Bigbird said:

4 mg, the last dose that I felt good at.  

It doesn't work like that.  The doctor's recommendation reflects his/her ignorance of how these drugs work. Just because you felt good at one time at 4mg doesn't mean you will the next time.   Your nervous system is not the same nervous system it was on June 12 when you were last on 4mg.  In the four months since then you've gone through a fast taper at low doses and your system is very sensitized.  It has also made adjustments to being on the lower dose of the drug.  That's why we recommend updosing a very small amount, as we did with you--because too much can overwhelm and destabilize the system, and it can take a long time to recover from that.  

 

Right now your system needs stability, which is why I would remain at your current dose and allow your nervous system to stabilize.  Jumping around in doses, trying to find the perfect spot, is not advisable.

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

 

 

 

[Bigbird]

I agree. I just have not been feeling any better at all. I had some infection that showed blood and white blood cells in my urine. Maybe I should try 3 mg? Now I’m being tested for my thyroid and liver.

[Giulietta]

Hello Bigbird,

 

I'm sorry about your distress with WD, frustration with MDs and confusion about what to do (if I understand frustration and confusion). As @Gridley indicated MDs do not know how these works and how our nervous system acclimates to working without the drug - and with less of it.

 

11 minutes ago, Gridley said:

and your system is very sensitized.  It has also made adjustments to being on the lower dose of the drug.

 

Your system needs stability - and it needs time to learn to fully function with less of the drug. Jumping around in doses - is confusing and counter-productive from everything I have learned from Gridley and the other moderators - and information on this site.

 

I have been dealing with this issue myself with the MD and it has been a struggle. The MD initially proposed to do a partial reinstatement on me. When I questioned why - and would this make my situation worse - he decided we shold not increase my dose as long as my  symptoms were tolerable. This is over 2 weeks.  Well - that's my situation and I feel terrible you are so conflicted too. @Gridley has helped me with this a lot.

 

Hang in there 

🤕