HopeSurvives: stuck on Valium 3.15mg after 2 failed microtapers

[HopeSurvives]

hello can you guys help me? I failed twice even with daily titration. i went as low as below 0.1mg the first time and updosed to 2mg then went down again to as low as 0.35mg and failed again. this second time i was desperate and tried some supplements that revved me up and i spiralled upwards to 3.6mg by aug2018. from there i was able to reduce but it got difficult again and i am basically holding (with some micro cuts) for close to 3months now and im stuck at around 3.15mg and it seems i feel every tiny reductions. 

 

i have seen the threads here discussing the myth of TW and the importance of going extremely slow if you are very sensitive. they are encouraging but with the difficulty i am facing, my mind cannot shake off this fear that i wont be able to get off this and i might eventually go insane and do something stupid out of this misery. please help me guys im losing hope 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Shep
added username to title

[Shep]

Hi, HopeSurvives.

 

Welcome to Surviving Antidepressants.

 

Please note I moved your post from the benzo forum to here in the main Introduction and Update section.  We like for all members to have an introduction thread before starting a benzo thread. If you have questions about your previous use of an antidepressant, the antidepressant moderators will be able to answer them here. This thread will also be the place to ask questions about supplements and to receive general social support (this area gets more traffic). 

 

Here is some general information to get you started: 

 

How psychiatric drugs remodel your brain (for antidepressant withdrawal)

 

What is happening in your brain? (for benzo withdrawal)

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

Healing from antidepressants. Patterns of recovery video (4 minutes)

 

5 hours ago, HopeSurvives said:

this second time i was desperate and tried some supplements that revved me up and i spiralled upwards to 3.6mg by aug2018.

 

Please list the supplements you were on and the dates. 

 

5 hours ago, HopeSurvives said:

i have seen the threads here discussing the myth of TW and the importance of going extremely slow if you are very sensitive. they are encouraging but with the difficulty i am facing, my mind cannot shake off this fear that i wont be able to get off this and i might eventually go insane and do something stupid out of this misery. please help me guys im losing hope 

 

No need to lose hope, HS. Many people find the lower doses much more difficult to come off of, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. 

 

You may also still be suffering from your antidepressant withdrawal even 7 years off, especially if any of the supplements you were more recently using affected serotonin. The more you can tell us about your history, the more we can help. 

 

A section that we highly recommend to members is the non-drug coping section. You'll find a lot of information on non-drug ways of making your journey off these drugs easier and will prepare you for your drug-free life ahead. 

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements, as many members report their nervous systems are simply too fragile to handle them. However, magnesium and fish oil tend to be calming to the nervous system and many people report they do help. Please only add in one supplement at a time and at a small dose. For more, please see:

 

King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

Please let us know more about your symptoms and also, the time(s) of day you are taking Valium. If you're currently taking any other drugs (even over-the-counter drugs) and / or supplements, please also list the time(s) of day you are taking those. 

[HopeSurvives]

thanks for replying Shep. i hit a wall at around 0.35mg V apr-may2018 in my 2nd attempt. i had headaches, increased anxiety and weird sensations in my scalp. looking back, i had quite some stressful things during that time and that maybe destabilized me. i updosed a little to 0.40mg and i should have held long enough but i didnt. after a few days i continued microtapering and i got desperate i tried just 1/4 of a 120mg lithium orotate tablet and it revved me up. increased BP, anxiety etcetera. i went to ER and from here i went up again to 1.8mgV stabilized and held for a few days only and started tapering again. i was able to go below 1.6mg and had difficulties again around 1.55 in august 2018. i should have just held long enough before tapering. i tried small doses of mirtazapine which worked earlier in 2014 when i hit a rough patch. i also tried small doses of hydroxyzine during this time but i think they just revved me up and i should have just held longer and stayed there. i felt glutamate storm in my head i got scared of seizure, stroke or whatever was going to happen. i didnt know what to do i ended up going to 3.6mg. again i only held for a week thereand started tapering very slowly. i cut to 3.4mg in about 2mos but it started to get difficult again. i crawled very slowly since then and i did virtually just hold for the past 2-3mos with just a few nano cuts just to tease the dose down. i am now at 3.14mgV and i plan to just hold here. 

 

during the very slow cutting from 3.4mg downwards, i got depressed and i lost interest in many activities. this really scares me and i struggle with bad thoughts now. i wont act on them but i feel like crap all the time. i cant shake off the fear of TW and kindling from the 1st almost successful taper to higher doses again. if i am sure i would get better and now TW or kindling if i updose from here i would do it right away but i really dont want to dig a deeper hole for me. 

 

i currently take the ff as needed : mag citrate, ashwhaghanda, valerian, seriphos, and ibuprofen. do you think magnesium is ok? some people on BB say supplements that act on gaba receptors like magnesium and ashwaghanda will delay healing. but they seem to help me and i really dont know what is true. i already take fish oil regularly

 

 

[xyz]

hi Hope,

take your time. don't worry about tolerance and kindling.

it is my second time going off benzo. my first time was really easy.

 

this time, it will take me 3 years to taper 4mg... (i was tapering lexapro at the same time)

i will be off in a couple of week, i am at 0.10mg. i have been tapering at a rate of 0.02mg every week.

i get the usual symptoms the 2nd to the 3rd day after my cut that last a couple of days, then i feel good again. i give myself a couple of days to recover before i reduce again.

 

after a while you realize that there is nothing personal and symptoms are not permanent, it is just your brain recovering.

it is a process, don;t fear them. to me TW means that you don't feel great on benzo, that is all.

if you have akathisia and are symptomatic, that means you are still cutting too fast.

valium gets really hard the lower you go. that is why you have to be accurate in your measurement and listen to your body.

i was worried about TW but i had no choice to go super slow. i have a family and a job to be hold.

 

i had and have bad thoughts too. the way i deal with them is to notice them and distract.

i tell myself that they are not real, they are just thoughts, they are not mine, and i focus on physical activities that i can do such as cleaning the house, buying food, organizing my work.

i focus on what i can do on that day and not how i feel.

it is hard, but i figure that if i deal with any issues in life like this, one day at a time, i would be okay.

 

best of luck to you.

[Shep]

11 hours ago, HopeSurvives said:

i currently take the ff as needed : mag citrate, ashwhaghanda, valerian, seriphos, and ibuprofen. do you think magnesium is ok? some people on BB say supplements that act on gaba receptors like magnesium and ashwaghanda will delay healing. but they seem to help me and i really dont know what is true. i already take fish oil regularly

 

To be honest, HS, I think these supplements are creating problems for you. However, we are individual in how we respond to supplements. I'm not so sure magnesium is necessarily bad for people going through benzo withdrawal because many people report that it's helpful.  And some people prefer to get their magnesium through epsom salt baths, which is a milder way of getting it. It's very individual. 

 

That being said, when you take supplements that are sedating either by combining too many or simply taking too high a dose of one single supplement, you dampen down the nervous system. The more you dampen down the nervous system, the more it fights to stay alert. This creates a paradoxical reaction. So some of your symptoms may be related to paradoxical reactions to supplements and not necessarily due to the benzo. 

 

Valerian is basically a mild benzo. We recommend when people using valerian decide to taper off it, they taper off it slowly, the way you'd taper off a benzo. So if you're using it as needed, you may be getting some of the same problems you'd get using a benzo as needed - lots of rebound symptoms and kindling. 

 

Here is some information to aid in your research:

 

Valerian Root

 

Ashwagandha

 

Phosphatydilserine, aka phosphatidyl serine (Seriphos or Cortiphos)

 

Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet

 

Please also see:

 

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

The best way to tell if a supplement is causing problems is to post a drug and symptoms journal. This allows you to see your symptoms within the context of when you take your drugs and supplements. Please start a drug and symptoms journal using the below format. 

 

Please include:

 

• All supplements and your current drugs (also include over-the-counter drugs)
• How much you are sleeping at night
• When you're eating

On 9/27/2016 at 2:49 PM, Altostrata said:

In the course of discussion in your Introductions forum topic, you may be asked to keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern, including when you take your drugs, their dosages, and any symptoms. We ask this because there may be something we can do to reduce the symptoms.

 

What we need to see for every single day over several days is what symptoms you get before and after you take your drugs. If you're not taking any drugs and have withdrawal symptoms, we still need to see your symptom pattern throughout the day:

 

The time of day, dosage, and severity of symptoms are essential information. Include

 

- Time and dosage for all drugs taken throughout the day, psychiatric and non-psychiatric.

- Following each dose, note any symptoms. If you are having a reaction to the drug, it may take hours for a symptom to show up -- that's why we ask you to keep notes all day long.

- If you're not taking any drugs, your symptoms throughout the day.

- Your sleep pattern. Since so many drugs disturb sleep, if you find you're waking in the middle of the night, it could be from a drug you took earlier in the evening. If you're not taking any drugs, there may be ways you can improve your sleep.

And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, looking something like this:
 
6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

 

[Shep]

3 hours ago, xyz said:

i had and have bad thoughts too. the way i deal with them is to notice them and distract.

i tell myself that they are not real, they are just thoughts, they are not mine, and i focus on physical activities that i can do such as cleaning the house, buying food, organizing my work.

i focus on what i can do on that day and not how i feel.

it is hard, but i figure that if i deal with any issues in life like this, one day at a time, i would be okay.

 

This is excellent advice, Xyz. 

[HopeSurvives]

thanks again for the support guys. this 3rd try its been more difficult. im trying to reduce ridiculously slow. right now its like 1% per month. should i just HOLD for a long while? im thinking by cutting something however small, i keep moving some and hopefully heal some along the way. im really scared now. all i can do is distract with some games, browsing, walking if i feel like it and doing some hose chores if i feel up to it. please help me im really scared now 

[Shep]

Please post a drug and symptoms journal, as I described in my post here. 

 

Once we have that for a few days, we can help you set up a game plan for coming off. 

[HopeSurvives]

Shep, i have decided to just use like 25-50mg mag citrate as needed and fish oil only. i stopped using the others. 

 

i dose 6 times a day as evenly spread out as possible. i am generally more comfortable in the afternoon and evening. when i am more anxious, restless in the morning i sometime dose earlier but i still try not to. i sometimes get tinnitus with "glutamated" feeling in the chest and head. im scared of this and this is what caused me to updose the last time spiralling from 0.35mg to where i am now. sometimes the tinnitus has a feel to it like the sound is rhythmically increasing and decreasing in loudness. there is also a feeling that it is vibrating rhythmically and i think of this as a convulsive manifestation? or am i just overthinking my fear of seizures? in late 2018 as i was just into the recent updose, i felt like there was nerve damage around my left forehead and my vision on the left eye was affected. i had blue spots in my vision when i go out in the day but thankfully that went away. i sometimes have the floaters that look like microbes when looked at under the microscope. sometimes i also get that occassional flashing lightbulb for a few seconds. i was scared around feb2019 when i realized that when i cover my right eye, the center focus of my vision in the left eye is small. people would look like carricatures where their face looks small when i look at them in the face using my left eye only. i had my eyes checked by 2 opthalmologists and they ruled out glaucoma or anything. so im thinking this is nerve damage when i had what i thought was a glutamate storm last time? 

 

my sleep could be erratic but i get a minimum of 3-4hrs. i usually sleep in 2 chunks if i am lucky. i usually sleep somewhere around 9-10 pm and wake up 4hrs later. do something on the computer or anything and take a dose then later i get slepy again and get maybe a couple of hours before dawn. sometimes when i am symptomatic in the day i get tired and i fall asleep in the early evening somewhere6-8 pm and sleep around 4hrs. again i usually get some sleep later in the wee hours. 

 

when i was more stable in the earlier taper attempts, i have 4x even dosing around 6am, 12nn, 6pm and 12mn give or take. i want to go back to that but im afraid to make changes now. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by HopeSurvives
edited to add description of sxs

[Shep]

11 hours ago, HopeSurvives said:

i sometimes have the floaters that look like microbes when looked at under the microscope. sometimes i also get that occassional flashing lightbulb for a few seconds. i was scared around feb2019 when i realized that when i cover my right eye, the center focus of my vision in the left eye is small. people would look like carricatures where their face looks small when i look at them in the face using my left eye only. i had my eyes checked by 2 opthalmologists and they ruled out glaucoma or anything. so im thinking this is nerve damage when i had what i thought was a glutamate storm last time? 

 

These drugs cause a lot of eye problems. You've gotten checked out by an eye doctor and even gotten a second opinion, so I doubt it's nerve damage or anything permanent. And since you're still taking a benzo, it could also be a side effect as well as a withdrawal effect and will likely clear up after you taper off and go onto the healing phase of this journey.

 

 

11 hours ago, HopeSurvives said:

my sleep could be erratic but i get a minimum of 3-4hrs. i usually sleep in 2 chunks if i am lucky. i usually sleep somewhere around 9-10 pm and wake up 4hrs later. do something on the computer or anything and take a dose then later i get slepy again and get maybe a couple of hours before dawn. sometimes when i am symptomatic in the day i get tired and i fall asleep in the early evening somewhere6-8 pm and sleep around 4hrs. again i usually get some sleep later in the wee hours. 

 

You may want to focus on better sleep habits, such as avoiding the computer. Please see the helpful tips here:

 

Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Avoiding the computer a couple of hours before bedtime, sticking to a routine bedtime, wearing a sleep mask or using room darkening shades to help with early morning light coming into your bedroom, sleeping in a cool room, etc. can all aid in sleep.

 

You may find that guided meditations help you wind down for sleep such as this one: 

 

Guided Meditation Deep sleep | anxiety and insomnia relief | relaxation before bedtime video (21 minutes)

 

A technique to aid in sleep is explained here in this video: 

 

How To Trick Your Brain Into Falling Asleep | Jim Donovan | TEDxYoungstown video (12.5 minutes)

 

 

21 hours ago, Shep said:

Please post a drug and symptoms journal, as I described in my post here. 

 

Once we have that for a few days, we can help you set up a game plan for coming off. 

 

I've given all the feedback I can think of from what you just posted. Please post a drug and symptoms journal over the coming days if you'd like more feedback. 

[HopeSurvives]

Hello again Shep. honestly i am not up for the meticulous logging/journaling everything in my day to day living. i find it hard to do. i only log what i think are significant ones. i started cutting very slowly again and i think i have to hold again at 3.1mg now. i wanted to ask, if i should just hold longer because i was only able to reduce from 3.6mg to 3.1mg in 1year. one theory i have is i only held for 1week after i updosed from 1.8mg to 3.6mg last year and i started microtapering right away. the 1st two months i was able to reduce roughly 0.1mg each month down to 3.4. from there it got harder then i decided to do a long hold around may2019 at 3.18mg. i did some ridiculously small token cuts while on that hold just to keep things moving. so you think i should just do another long hold or keep making tiny cuts? thanks 

[ChessieCat]

On 8/6/2019 at 7:37 PM, Shep said:

I've given all the feedback I can think of from what you just posted. Please post a drug and symptoms journal over the coming days if you'd like more feedback. 

 

The request for daily logs is not something that is done to make a member's life difficult.  It is because they can give an overall pciture of what is happening.  Without daily logs, it is very difficult for the mods to assist a member.  Please reconsider your reluctance to do the logs.  Posting 3 consecutive days may be enough for mods to see a pattern and make suggestions which in turn can help you to suffer less in the long run.  Short term pain, long term gain.

 

 

[HopeSurvives]

hello friends i just want to give an update. i was at 3.1 V in sep2019 and had some bad thoughts. i decided to do a long hold then finally jan2020 i started microcutting again and i was able to reduce to 2.4mg V until feb2021 where i started to hold again until today. i am having rotating symptoms. restlessness, derealization, low moods. do i have to keep holding or just start cutting again and tough it out? i dont have the grit i used to have in 2014-16 during my first taper where i was still very determined to get off. 

also, what are your thoughts on the supplement pregnenolone to combat the restlessness? 

and how to edit my signature? thanks 

[Shep]

11 hours ago, HopeSurvives said:

and how to edit my signature? thanks 

 

Here is a link to edit your signature:

 

Account - Setting - Create or Update Your Signature

 

11 hours ago, HopeSurvives said:

i dont have the grit i used to have in 2014-16 during my first taper where i was still very determined to get off. 

 

This sounds like you're dealing with battle fatigue. This means you're worn out from being sick for so long. So you might be better off soldiering on with the taper instead of waiting for improvements that may or may not come. When you're sick for years, a ten-pound weight can feel like carrying around a hundred-pound weight. You haven't posted any updates for nearly 2 years, so it's really hard to give more advice. This is just something to consider as you weigh your options. 

 

 

11 hours ago, HopeSurvives said:

also, what are your thoughts on the supplement pregnenolone to combat the restlessness? 

 

Please see:

 

Pregnenolone