Albert: preparing to get off Paxil / paroxetine for good

[Albert]

12 hours ago, mstimc said:

They did but its so important to learn some kind of coping practices to handle the thoughts and symptoms.  The simplest thing to accept about WD is also the most difficult: that your mind and sensitized  nervous system are the root cause of your symptoms.  It seems impossible that thoughts could cause this much misery but its the truth.  Once you accept that, you can begin dealing with them; as intense as they are, they are temporary and ephemeral.

 

As Alto said, you're dealing with multiple tapers and medication changes and need time to stabilize.  Take that time learn coping techniques--you'll be surprised how effective they can be if you take them to heart and practice them.  There are no shortcuts but you can take steps to help you make progres..

Thank you very much for the reply. This will be very helpful.

20 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You're welcome to return when you're ready to taper Paxil.

 

Oh, by the way. could be the Tylenol in your hydrocodone causing the tinnitus.

Would you rather me stay off of the forum until I have eliminated hydro? 

[Altostrata]

We can't answer your questions about tapering hydrocodone or dealing with the adverse reactions from it.

[Albert]

Alto, I spoke with my Back neurosurgeon yesterday and he advised that I am on such a low dose of the Hydro that I could actually just stop taking it.  However, if I wanted to do a quick taper I could as well.   6 days ago, I tapered from 15 mg daily down to 12.5 and today I am dropping down to 10 mg.  I also wanted to tell you that Yesterday I had a window that lasted nearly all day long.  Today back to withdrawal though.  Maybe slightly less intense that a week ago, but still pretty intense.  I am hoping that is a sign of moving toward stability. Just wanting to keep u up to date.  

[Altostrata]

If I were you, I'd stop reducing the hydrocodone for now, let your nervous system settle.

[Albert]

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2020 at 3:45 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Stabilizing from what? Without getting into the sticky wicket of how you've tapered hydrocordone, I don't know what your expectations are for going off it. You'll have to confer with your doctor about the results of your tapering. Did he or she say you wouldn't have withdrawal symptoms?

 

If you're asking about stabilizing from your mishap with Paxil, it's impossible to distinguish your ongoing hydro withdrawal symptoms from whatever is going on with Paxil. You're likely in a period of constant disruption as you go off hydro.

Alto, I have one question.  How does one tell if they have Kindled?  Is that something that I would have known by now?  I am just trying to rule that out.  Thanks a bunch . 

[Altostrata]

If you have a tendency to neurological kindling, you will react oddly to dosage reductions, previously tolerated drug dosages, or sometimes even foods or supplements.

 

In my opinion, your nervous system is still recovering from the mishap with Paxil. You will want to make very careful changes so as not to upset this.

[Albert]

Just wanting to share an update.  I am currently still in PAWS.  However, I am starting to show signs of slow improvement.  I am starting to find out that over the last year, I have had three back surgeries in attempt to correct multiple symptoms that were a result of Paroxetine withdrawal.  After my third surgery, a doctor tried to perform a cross taper over to Cymbalta in 2 weeks and that went very wrong and about 1  month later, I was hit with severe PAWS and nearly lost my job.  At the time that the doctor tried the cross taper, I was post surgery and I was taking 30 mg Paroxetine, 10mg of Oxycodone three times daily, muscle relaxers, 10 mg amitriptyline, .25 Xanax as needed, and 100 mg Gabapentin three times daily. I was in a complete state of despair.  Head dug into a pillow and completely unable to function !!!! .   A little over 3 months later I am showing signs of improvement but still working through a revolving cycle of symptoms ,windows and waves.  It is a very slow process, but I have been able to return to work and I am taking only one 20 mg tablet of Paroxetine and I have made it completely off of the Oxycodone and all the way down to only 1.5 mg of Hydrocodone daily.  Within the next 30 days I am hoping to be completely off of the hydrocodone and able to start stabilizing on the 20mg of Paroxetine.  Once I have become good and stable on the Paroxetine,  I will then start to taper Paxil and will be back to the group for help / support / and guidance.  Thanks for all of the support. 

[ChessieCat]

Thank you for updating.

 

It's good to hear that you are noticing improvements.

 

Take care and continue to be patient.

[Albert]

Just wanting to post update and get some insight.  Still holding on 20mg Paroxetine and have not up dosed yet.  Still on Hydrocodone, but getting very close to off.  Tapered down to fast in beginning 10mg to 7.5mg, to 5mg, to 2.5 all in 4 weeks and experienced a severe WD event that nearly landed me in hospital.  I held at 2.5 for a couple of weeks and have been dropping by .5 mg every 10 days and while I have still been experiencing symptoms of PAWS, it has been much more manageable and I have been able to hang in there and keep my job.  However, I ran into another wall, I made it all the way down to .5 mg / day and 7 days after dropping from 1.0 to .5, I have found myself in middle of another severe wave of WD.  Every symptom in the book has returned.  Not sure if I should go back up to 1mg, try to stick it out and hold at .5, or up dose to .75 and see if I start to find some stability.  

           

           Even thought I have been getting some waves of improvement here and there, I am starting to wonder if I have kindled.  Wonder if I am just not going to be able to stabilize and I am just going through another delayed wave.  I really hope that I can stabilize on 20mg so that I can continue to work while I perform a super slow taper.  I considered the brass monkey slide or maybe finding a compounding pharmacy.  If I have kindled, is it possible to still get to a point of stability so that I can taper more comfortably? 

 

            On a positive note, I am off all other medications!!  No Xanex ( was only taking as needed ) no muscle relaxers, no gabapentin, no amitriptyline, no blood pressure meds, no statins and no alcohol.  Only thing I have been taking is some tart cherry to sleep and some fish oil.   Even thought I am not a leafy greens guy, I have also adjusted my diet and cut out all processed foods and high carb foods.    Thanks for listening and hope all is well.

 

 

[Albert]

Just wanting to update and get some insight.   I am still holding on Paxil 20mg and have not up dosed yet.  Unfortunately, I am still on Hydrocodone.  When I had my last episode of acute severe WD, I had dropped from 7.5 mg daily all the way down to 2.5 mg in 2 week period.  I found that was a mistake and was far to fast.  I nearly checked myself into a hospital as result.  I held there at 2.5 mg for a few weeks and then started to drop only .5 mg every 10 days.  Still experiencing all of the PAWS symptoms, but they have been more manageable and I had made it back to work.   I have now made it all the way down to .5mg per day, but 6-7 days into the drop, I hit another spell of severe  acute WD and the symptoms all returned.  Still not sure if this is just another delayed Paxil WD episode a few months down the road, or result of the hydro drop.  Feel so defeated, I am was starting to get some windows and now I am starting to wonder if I have kindled.  Just hoping that I can stabilize on 20mg at some point so that I can hold my  job, and slow taper.  

I am using the scale and going back up to .90mg hydro per day to see if that was the cause.  Not helping anything, I forgot if I took my dose of Paxil this morning at 8:00 AM aIs the cognitive dysfunction had me going in circles.  I wound up doing down hill even further again today so I went ahead and took 10mg.  Basically not sure if I only took 10 mg today or 30.  I do know that this evening I have shown signs of improvement that are very welcomed.  If I did take 30, this makes me wonder if I should up dose.  However, I have came so far, I would hate to do that. 

 

On a good note:   I am completely off all other medications.  NO - Cymbalta, gabapentin, amitriptyline, xanex ( was as needed ), muscle relaxers, blood pressure medication, or statin. 

 

[ChessieCat]

46 minutes ago, Albert said:

I forgot if I took my dose of Paxil this morning at 8:00 AM aIs the cognitive dysfunction had me going in circles.  I wound up doing down hill even further again today so I went ahead and took 10mg.  Basically not sure if I only took 10 mg today or 30.  I do know that this evening I have shown signs of improvement that are very welcomed.  If I did take 30, this makes me wonder if I should up dose.  However, I have came so far, I would hate to do that. 

 

Just go back to your usual dose at the regular time you take it.  Many of us have messed up our dosing.  Things might worsen for a little bit but at least you know what caused it.

[Albert]

18 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Just go back to your usual dose at the regular time you take it.  Many of us have messed up our dosing.  Things might worsen for a little bit but at least you know what caused it.

Thank you for the reply.  That is true, I will get back to my usual dose tomorrow.  

[Albert]

*** BIGGEST MISTAKE I HAVE EVER MADE  ***

 

I have now been on this journey for well over 1 year.  ( three back surgeries that have prolonged this ).  Looking back, my advise to anyone who makes an attempt to get off of an antidepressant would be to follow the direction of this website to a T and do not even think of deviating from it for any reason !!!!  If I had done that, I would not be in the dire situation that I am currently in and trying to get out of.  I let doctors and other professionals guide me that really had no idea what was causing my symptoms and how to manage this condition.  This is one area where you just can't put all of your faith in the doctors.  I have had several medication changes along the way that have done nothing but worsen my condition.  I have found myself knowing who to trust, where my symptoms were coming from, or what was happening to me.   Had I not listened to anyone else and just followed the direction of the mods on this website, I would not be in this situation.  I am sure of that !!!   However, being told that the symptoms in my legs were lower back related and then being told that the tingling and burning in my arms were a result of my cervical, caused me to have multiple back surgeries that were unnecessary and it has not been until here w/in the last few months that I have discovered that.  All of the medications that came along w/those surgeries have really complicated and worsened my situation.  It can be very difficult not to listen to medical professionals and take their direction around medication.  However, this has been the worst mistake that I have made.  I am now down to only two medications and getting very close to only one medication !!    I review the support documentation that is on this site and this is the only support that I will be following. Hoping to get better and hang on.

[Albert]

Is there a way to tell if I have kindled or if I have just become extremely sensitive to medication changes?   I have lots of physical symptoms to include shallow breathing, burning sensations in arms, brain burn, severe cramps in backs of legs, stinging in legs, nausea, weakness, tinnitus, light sensitive, anxiety, insomnia, this is just to name a few of them.  If I have kindled, can I heal?  Thanks 

[Albert]

Well Alto, I am 7 months now with my reinstatement.  I reinstated back to 20mg vs 30mg and I have managed to stay at that 20 mg dose but still not stabilized.  I have experienced small windows of improvement through my journey, but I am still dropping Hydrocodone!!!  I am all the way down to only 1 mg Hydro daily and when I tried to drop to .5 all broke loose again and I experienced another acute episode that mimics my original.  I have reinstated the Hydro to 1 mg and after 3 weeks I am getting a little more stable.  Psyc thinking that since my system is so sensitive and the Hydro counteracts with the Paxil that every time I drop, I am experiencing a delayed Paxil withdrawal.   I am going to try to drop again as soon as I get a little stronger.  I can’t wait to get the Hydro out of the way so that I can stabilize and come back to the site and get taper help off the Paxil!!!  Thanks Alto

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by ChessieCat
removed unnecessary quote

[Altostrata]

You're welcome.

 

11 minutes ago, Albert said:

 Psyc thinking that since my system is so sensitive and the Hydro counteracts with the Paxil that every time I drop, I am experiencing a delayed Paxil withdrawal.

 

I cannot make any sense out of this. What does "the Hydro counteracts with the Paxil that every time I drop" mean?

 

Not sure why I'm involved with this.

[Colonial]

 @Albert Hello friend,

 

I don't think it's so much as the Hydro interacts with the Paxil as much as they all interact in the same brain and once your compromised from one WD another one complicates and can aggravate the other. It doesn't  take long to become addicted to hydrocodone which can bring it's own nasty protracted withdrawal. Depending on how long and how high a dose you were on, if you dropped too fast it can be just as problematic.  Certain WD symptoms cross medication lines, meaning you may think its the Paxil but its a symptom that's also proper to the hydrocodone which makes pinning a symptom to one particular WD Problematic. Certain people have remarked their Paxil WD was a lot like their Opioid WD that they had done FIRST.

 

That being said, once your nervous system is compromised from one WD, any successive WD, in your case, the Hydro may need to be longer and slower, or it can complicate and delay over all healing.  Without a medication signature on your dosages of the Hydro it's hard to comment further.  Best of luck going forward.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Colonial

[ChessieCat]

Please redo your drug signature so that we can see your drug history at a glance.  If you wish to keep the information that is currently in your signature please copy and paste it in a post here in your Introduction topic before you edit it.

 

All we need to see are drug name, date and dose.  Please see this topic:  Instructions:  Withdrawal History Signature

 

This link goes straight to your signature:  Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

[Albert]

20 minutes ago, Colonial said:

 @Albert Hello friend,

 

I don't think it's so much as the Hydro interacts with the Paxil as much as they all interact in the same brain and once your compromised from one WD another one complicates and can aggravate the other. It doesn't  take long to become addicted to hydrocodone which can bring it's own nasty protracted withdrawal. Depending on how long and how high a dose you were on, if you dropped too fast it can be just as problematic.  Certain WD symptoms cross medication lines, meaning you may think its the Paxil but its a symptom that's also proper to the hydrocodone which makes pinning a symptom to one particular WD Problematic. Certain people have remarked their Paxil WD was a lot like their Opioid WD that they had done FIRST.

 

That being said, once your nervous system is compromised from one WD, any successive WD, in your case, the Hydro may need to be longer and slower, or it can complicate and delay over all healing.  Without a medication signature on your dosages of the Hydro it's hard to comment further.  Best of luck going forward.

That could be very true!!!  The WD is actually following the hydrocodone drops.   So u think all the muscle twitching, prickling, nausea, confusion, can also be coming from the Hydrocodone?  I have been on it since my surgery in March.  Just after surgery I was on 15mg Oxy every 4 hrs, but quickly dropped to 10 and then to 10 of hydro and then to 7.5 hydro every 4 hrs and that is when they did the antidepressant cross taper that started the entire thing.  They held me on the 7.5 for about 2 months trying to get the antidepressant to stabilize.  Then I started dropping on the Hydrocodone again.  2.5 mg drops every 7-10 days.  Has been difficult the entire time.  I am all the way down to 1mg daily and have been dropping .5 mg every 10 days.  However this last drop attempt nearly landed me into a recovery.  I have reinstated to 1 mg and after 2.5 to 3 weeks I am slightly stabilizing.  Do you have any recommendations for me?  I would really appreciate it.   What to do from here? How would you suggest I taper? Can I still just continue to shave off small pebbles of pills, did I go to fast?   Thank u so much!!!  Honestly, my Dr is supportive but clueless.  He has tried to give me all kinds of drugs but I refuse

[Albert]

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

You're welcome.

 

 

I cannot make any sense out of this. What does "the Hydro counteracts with the Paxil that every time I drop" mean?

 

Not sure why I'm involved with this.

Every time I drop the Hydrocodone dose, they wonder if it is slightly dropping the Paxil and causing Paxil withdrawal symptoms.  To be honest Alto, this is the same Dr who started the entire thing and I am not sure he really knows.  I have just chosen not to take anything else and basically try to muscle through it with only some fish oil and some tart cherry in the evening as I am only getting about 4 hrs sleep a night.  Last night was improved though. 

[Albert]

The increase in symptoms seems to be following the Hydrocodone every time I taper.  By about 7 -8 days after taper it really kicks in

[Colonial]

15 minutes ago, Albert said:

So u think all the muscle twitching, prickling, nausea, confusion, can also be coming from the Hydrocodone?  

 

I get prickling, nausea and confusion to some extent every time I "fast" from my Percocet's so my body doesn't become "tolerant" to them.

Confusion and difficulty thinking is a symptom that comes on about day 8-9 for opioid WD as that's when our brain starts to detox the poisons from it.

Other Neurological symptoms are also possible.

 

If as you say the symptoms uptick after the Hydro drops and you've been on it since march, your in opioid withdrawal as well is my opinion.

As to:

my surgery in March.  Just after surgery I was on 15mg Oxy every 4 hrs, but quickly dropped to 10 and then to 10 of hydro and then to 7.5 hydro every 4 hrs and that is when they did the antidepressant cross taper that started the entire thing.  They held me on the 7.5 for about 2 months trying to get the antidepressant to stabilize.  Then I started dropping on the Hydrocodone again.  2.5 mg drops every 7-10 days.  

 

"Quickly dropped"  is hard to define and I don't know when at 7.5 for 2 months was.

What month were you down to 7.5 by?

Opioid addiction after 30 days is not unreasonable.

If you can put in your signature line a more precise dosage it would be helpful.

 

Your also free to private message me if you feel more comfortable, but this is info that WILL affect your eventual Paxil taper, so that drug info should be in your signature line to try to decipher what's the Paxil and what's the Opioid.  As another person on both, I've found You need to keep good symptom notes without becoming obsessive abut it.  I find the daily symptom schedule actually allows me to free by brain from worrying about it and I can go back later when im feeling better and piece the jigsaw puzzle of symptoms and med drops together then.

[Colonial]

11 minutes ago, Albert said:

By about 7 -8 days after taper it really kicks in

 

4 minutes ago, Colonial said:

Confusion and difficulty thinking is a symptom that comes on about day 8-9 for opioid WD as that's when our brain starts to detox the poisons from it.

 

[Colonial]

On 6/12/2020 at 6:13 PM, Altostrata said:

You may have noticed I mentioned that it may not be possible to distinguish Paxil withdrawal symptoms from opiate withdrawal symptoms if you change your drugs at the same time. Now you've compounded the difficulty by casually changing your dosage of hydrocodone again. 

 

I just read back a bit and saw you were still on 15mgs a day in June, after being on it since March. 

I think the end of your hydro taper was too aggressive OR you might have gotten by IF you hadn't started the Paxil one as well.

 

Give me a day to read your thread properly from the beginning and then I can answer you messages properly.

As Alto said, this isn't a site that does Opiod WD properly, but the same rules apply really, 1 WD at a time.

And whatever doctor who told you you could stop it cold turkey after 4 months inJune when you were still on 15mgs a day was completely, well, wrong.

[Altostrata]

2 hours ago, Albert said:

That could be very true!!!  The WD is actually following the hydrocodone drops.   So u think all the muscle twitching, prickling, nausea, confusion, can also be coming from the Hydrocodone?

 

As explained before many, many times. If you're getting withdrawal symptoms after decreasing hydrocodone, you need to taper by smaller amounts.

 

Have you not discussed hydrocodone withdrawal symptoms with your doctor? Please use your ability to research to find out more about this.

 

This site does not handle hydrocodone tapering.

[Colonial]

 

I read over your thread and noticed something overlooked from your symptom chart from June 14th.

It says you took Benadryl at 1:30 am to try to get back to sleep, and

Took Flonase at 9:30 am.

 

Are you still taking either of these either regularly or even occasionally?

 

 

[Albert]

2 minutes ago, Colonial said:

 

I read over your thread and noticed something overlooked from your symptom chart from June 14th.

It says you took Benadryl at 1:30 am to try to get back to sleep, and

Took Flonase at 9:30 am.

 

Are you still taking either of these either regularly or even occasionally?

 

2 minutes ago, Colonial said:

 

NO, I have not been taking the Benadryl.  However, 7 days ago my DR advised me to take .1 mg of Clonidine before bedtime to help me get some sleep.  I did that for two nights.  I do not feel it helped sleep, so I have not taken it since as I am a little afraid to take anything.  That is the only thing I have taken.  I discontinued the Flonase and I have stayed clear of the Benadryl. 

 

[Albert]

NO, I have not been taking the Benadryl.  However, 7 days ago my DR advised me to take .1 mg of Clonidine before bedtime to help me get some sleep.  I did that for two nights.  I do not feel it helped sleep, so I have not taken it since as I am a little afraid to take anything.  That is the only thing I have taken.  I discontinued the Flonase and I have stayed clear of the Benadryl. 

[Colonial]

Clonidine belongs to a class of drugs called centrally acting alpha-agonists.

Common side effects include upper respiratory tract infection, feeling irritable, trouble sleeping, and nightmares.

 

Please be aware than any other intermittent drug use can exacerbate your withdrawal symptoms making it difficult and take longer to stabilize.

So when taking any other drug, even something that seems as innocent as Benadryl or 1 or 2 pills of Clonidine here or there there can be interactions that will make understanding the over all picture of why what is happening to a person is difficult

 

I can't over state how important it is that you need to remember to report ALL drug use.

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Colonial

[Albert]

Thanks again and I will not take anything unless I run it by you. 

[Albert]

Today: 

Woke: 4:30 AM / Vivid dreams

5:00 AM - DeCaff Coffee 2 cups - Will discontinue that

7:00 AM - Paroxetine 20m

8:00 AM - 2 eggs with light layer of cheese on top.

9:00 AM - Hydro .25 mg

10:00 AM - Fish Oil

4:00 PM - Almonds

6:00 PM - Blackened Tilapia / Mixed vegetables

9:00 PM Hydro .25 mg

>> 8 bottles of water

>> Day filled with mainly waves.  Very difficult to work.  A little worse than yesterday but better than  few days ago.

[Altostrata]

Albert, we're not going to address your hydrocodone tapering or withdrawal symptoms. You need to take that up with your doctor.

[Albert]

Alto, I really need help.  I will not mention the Hydrocodone.  Can I please stay and get some direction around everything else?  

[Albert]

Starting to get some small windows of relief.  Felt my legs loosen up a little today and only has very quick episodes of nausea.  Also noticed some of my memory and focus to come back.  Drinking lots of water and also watching what I eat.

[Albert]

After 3 weeks of pretty much non stop waves, I have experienced a couple of improved days!!  

Sleep:  10:15 PM to 4:30 AM

Woke 4:30 - Broken sleep till about 5:30 with racing thoughts but no thoughts of doom.

7:00 AM - 20mg Paroxetine

7:30 AM 2-eggs w/cheese

Apple, Almonds, mixed veggies

Dinner: - 1 piece fish, mixed veggies w/potatoes

Symptoms:  Mild burning in arms, minor pins and needles, moderate balance and weakness, stinging feet, moderate anxiety, minor to moderate nausea.  Enough focus has returned to make it through work day w/out significant trouble. 

Hoping to build on the progress.

[Albert]

Back to full acute withdrawals.  4 hrs sleep.  Don’t know what to do.  8 months trying to stabilize on 20 mg Paroxetine down from original dose of 30 and I get some small windows but feel like I am actually getting worse at times.  So sick this morning.