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Lookinup's intro: please help

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Lookinup

I will.  Just wanted to get something off.

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Lookinup

 

Saturday, June 6 - Sunday, June 7

 

8:00 a.m. .78 ml Prozac - no effect

9:00 a.m.Valium 2.19- hr increase slightly; 

9:30 a.m. feeling “foggy”

9:30 A.m. fish oil

9:30-2:00 feel tired and anxious; some stabbing pains in back; tingling in leg; nausea

2:00 p.m. Valium 2.5 mg.- hr increase for about 15 min.

2:30 p.m. - 5:00 some anxiety; Nausea

3:00 p.m. Walk 1 mile; no difficulty

6:30 p.m dinner - anxiety; some numbness around mouth

8:00  p.m. Valium 7.5

9:00 p.m. Remeron, 3.75, Seroquel 50 mg.

6:00 a.m. Tirosent (thyroid)

7:00 a.m. Out of bed slight heart rate increase

8:00 a.m. ..78 ml Prozac. - heart rate normal

9:00 a.m. Valium 2.19 - slight hr. Increase - foggy; anxiety

9:30 a.m. breakfast - not much appetite; anxiety; 

Rest of a.m. tired/anxious feeling; slight numbness in corner of mouth; some muscle pain in calf; numbness in soles of feet near toes.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

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Altostrata

What progress have you made in decreasing Valium? You went from 2.5mg per dose to 2.19mg per dose? When did you do this?

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Lookinup
28 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

What progress have you made in decreasing Valium? You went from 2.5mg per dose to 2.19mg per dose? When did you do this?

Hi Altostrata,, I started last Wed, May 27.  I will drop to 1.88 this Wed.  Using brassmonkey.   

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Lookinup

That is only for one dose, the 9:00 a.m. one.  2:00 is still 2.5. And night time is 7.5mg

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Altostrata

When are you getting the heart rate increase? This is all you've reported.

 

2 hours ago, Lookinup said:

7:00 a.m. Out of bed slight heart rate increase

 

How much exercise do you get each day?

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Lookinup
1 minute ago, Altostrata said:

When are you getting the heart rate increase? This is all you've reported.

 

 

How much exercise do you get each day?

After Valium.  I try to walk each day about 1 mile.  Really need to tone, but afraid to do anything too strenuous; some muscle/joint aches

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Lookinup

Also feel some increase in hr after bedtime meds, seroquel 50 mg. And 7.5 mg. Valium. Fall asleep usually so don’t notice too much. 

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Altostrata

Lookinup, I am exasperated. You take Valium 3 times a day. After which dose? You should know by now that when I ask about a symptom, I want to know exactly when it occurs, before or after any drug intake. Why do I have to ask for this over and over?

 

WHY DOES THIS SYMPTOM NOT APPEAR IN YOUR DAILY SYMPTOM NOTES?

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Lookinup

I will continue to report.  It’s been a little hectic over the weekend.  My granddaughter, two years in remission from Leukemia, has a few swollen nodes to be checked tomorrow.  I’ve got to to get better!

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Lookinup
3 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Lookinup, I am exasperated. You take Valium 3 times a day. After which dose? You should know by now that when I ask about a symptom, I want to know exactly when it occurs, before or after any drug intake. Why do I have to ask for this over and over?

 

WHY DOES THIS SYMPTOM NOT APPEAR IN YOUR DAILY SYMPTOM NOTES?

I thought it did, after valium dose, increased hr. 

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Lookinup

Neglected to add it after 8:00 dose.  I apologize.

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Altostrata

As explained to you before, this is a paradoxical reaction to too much Valium. That is why you are reducing Valium.

 

As you reduce, we want to know if there are major changes in this symptom.

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Lookinup

Yes, I understand.  Maybe with further reductions it will dissipate and I will let you know that in my notes.  

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Lookinup

Have you seen this problem resolve with additional valium reductions?

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Altostrata

Yes. That is why we are suggesting you reduce Valium.

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Lookinup

Okay, I am experiencing the after Valium dose right now and will try to describe it as best I can.  I am feeling the anxiety one would feel when it is time to take the drug.  Feeling stronger heart beats at faster rate.  The best way to describe it is like I said, like I am past due for dose.  I think if I took more I’d have a panic attack.  I hope this helps create a picture of how I feel, especially after dosing.  The 2:00 dose does not seem to be as bad for. This happened with Klonopin also,  Is this from a confused CNS?  Thank you for your help.

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Altostrata

You are experiencing this after taking Valium? When did you take Valium? How long after taking Valium did the increased heartrate occur?

 

Whenever you have a symptom, I have to know the same information.

 

If you post your daily notes as I've asked you to many times, I would not have to ask these questions over and over and over and over.

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Lookinup

I took it at 8, twenty minutes before posting.  I was not posting notes from that time due to other things going on.  Just wanted to explain the sensation as it was occurring. Always post increased heart rate in my notes,.  It occurs almost immediately after.  I have an appointment with my cardiologist this morning and will talk to her about it.  Just wanted to communicate that to you while it was happening last night.

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Lookinup

Well aware of what I have to and why.  I will let you know how I respond to the additional reductions this month through 24 hour notes. I appreciate your help setting me up for the first week.  Realizing everyone is different, is a 10% reduction a month usually tolerated okay?

My psych really likes the Brassmonkey slide by the way.

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Altostrata

This appears to be that paradoxical reaction to too much Valium, as we've discussed before. We expect it, it's a regular reaction after you take Valium. You don't need to report it each time it happens, just in your daily notes.

 

As you've started to reduce Valium, what we'd like to see is the intensity of the paradoxical reaction reduce as well. But since Valium has such a long half-life, it may take weeks for any one reduction to take full effect.

 

So far, you've reduced 0.31mg, about 2.5% of your base daily dose of 12.5mg. Since Valium does have that long half-life, you might be able to reduce faster than 10% per month, but we have to see what this reduction does before the next step.

 

Valium does not have to be taken multiple times a day. It may make sense for you to eliminate the morning dose first, so you're not foggy throughout the day, and then the afternoon dose.

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Lookinup

I am looking forward to reducing the morning dose within the next few drops.  Will post notes soon reflecting this drop.

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Lookinup

6:00 a.m. Tirosent 88 mg

7:30 a.m. Breakfast; fish oil

8:00 a.m. Prozac .78 ml normal hr

9:00 a.m Valium 2.19 mg.- noticed increased hr. for about 1/2 hr.

10:00 a.m. Video appt. with cardiologist - doesn’t like any of the drugs.  Said I could take Propanolol if needed,  Not too

concerned about hr reaching 100 though agrees it isn’t normal for Valium.

10:30 noticed muscle tightness in calf and some pain in shoulder joints

12:00. Lunch; anxiety

Noticed numbness on bottom of left foot near toes and also in corner of mouth

2:00 p,.m. Valium 2.50.  Do not notice as much of an increase in hr at this dosing; 

3:00 p.m. anxiety

6:00 p.m. dinner - numbness in foot; tingling hand

6:30 p.m.- painful left shoulder joint

7:00 p.m. - watching t.v.; anxiety

8:00 p.m. - Valium 7.5 - dread this dose.- Not as bad as last night, deep breathing helped some

9:00 p.m  - Remeron 3.75 and Seroquel 50 mg; about 1/2 Hour to get to sleep

4:00 a.m. - adrenaline spike; palpitations; deep breathing

5:00 a.m. - back to sleep

7:20 a.m. - Tirosent - okay; 

7:45 a.m. - out of bed; foot numbness on soles

 

 

 

 

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Altostrata

I would go down to 2.0mg in the 9 a.m. dose, watch that for 4 days. Then I might start on the 8 p.m. dose.

 

I am sorry you are going through these paradoxical reactions, it must be distressing to you.

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Lookinup

Okay, thank you. Yes, it is all distressing.  Appreciate your support.

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Lookinup

Went to psy follow up yesterday.  He wants me off Mirt before anymore Valium.  Feels that with the withdrawals I had, valium is needed to help with them this time even at 5% reduction of Mirt per month. Also feels the little bit of Prozac and Seroquel will help scaffold withdrawals as well.  Said he wished he could have tackled the doctor who put me back on that horrible drug.  He loves the Valium taper I told him about, but wants to do it next. Told him about paradoxical effect of Valium and he is not as concerned about that as he is the Mirt.  What are your thoughts about that?   Thank you.

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Lookinup

So, now my prescription for Mirt is at a 5% reduction each month with no more liquid Val.  Am quite stuck! 

 

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Lookinup

I was so glad to finally have a good taper plan in place.  I worry about stopping V taper because it was already started. Won’t that bring on withdrawals?  Can I continue with slight V taper also?  Didn’t expect that news yesterday. I agree Mirt is toxic to me but we had a good plan for a good reason for cutting back on the Valium.  He said since my hr rate doesn’t remain like that it is not a big issue and can take Propanolol!  

 

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Lookinup
2 hours ago, Lookinup said:

I was so glad to finally have a good taper plan in place.  I worry about stopping V taper because it was already started. Won’t that bring on withdrawals?  Can I continue with slight V taper also?  Didn’t expect that news yesterday. I agree Mirt is toxic to me but we had a good plan for a good reason for cutting back on the Valium.  He said since my hr rate doesn’t remain like that it is not a big issue and can take Propanolol!  

 

My current dose needs liquid. I guess he will continue to prescribe that.  I am so upset by this. 

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Altostrata
5 hours ago, Lookinup said:

Went to psy follow up yesterday.  He wants me off Mirt before anymore Valium.  Feels that with the withdrawals I had, valium is needed to help with them this time even at 5% reduction of Mirt per month. Also feels the little bit of Prozac and Seroquel will help scaffold withdrawals as well.  Said he wished he could have tackled the doctor who put me back on that horrible drug.  He loves the Valium taper I told him about, but wants to do it next. Told him about paradoxical effect of Valium and he is not as concerned about that as he is the Mirt.  What are your thoughts about that?   Thank you.

 

I think you need to tell him the cardio symptoms from that paradoxical reaction are of extreme concern for you and your cardiologist, and you want to lower (not go off) the Valium to stop this adverse reaction before tapering mirtazapine.

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Lookinup

Yep, that’s exactly what I said.  Response was that it doesn’t last too long and if needed, take propanolol or try switching benzo—-NO.  ```````He will have to prescribe the Valium liquid due to my dose of 2.19 in the a.m.   I sure would like to just get to at least 10 mg and see if that has an impact. Not recommended to do a very slight taper of V in addition for a little while?  I am so upset by this.  Apparently he has four other patients having problems with Mirt withdrawal and gets the need for slow taper and wants to get on with it.  I’m glad, but not exactly at this time.  There is also a psych nurse practioner I could see, but she doesn’t prescribe and that’s what I need.  I am trying to stay positive.  As far as monthly reduction for Mirt, is 5% what you would recommend?  Thank you, Altostrata.  I really need your support.

Lookin up

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Altostrata

I would phone him back and be quite firm about your need to reduce Valium in order to eliminate these adverse reactions. You might say it doesn't make sense to you to add more drugs when you could just reduce this one. Do not ask his permission, tell him what you want to do.

 

You might tell him you intend to taper mirtazapine after you get your Valium settled to a tolerable level.

 

Given your substantial Valium and Seroquel intake, you could probably taper mirtazapine at 10% every few weeks.

 

Curious that he is so worried about mirtazapine when you're also taking Seroquel.

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Lookinup

Thanks, that is what I wanted to hear and how I feel.  I will contact him.

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Lookinup

So, dr. said already made a plan based on the drugs I am taking.  Asked if we could take more off then given the “bumpers,” as he called them. He said we can look at how things go in the next few weeks.  I am so upset for this monkey wrench which was totally unexpected. I really put a lot of credence into that taper, and it was going great.  I hope this Mirt.taper goes well and I.can move into 10% or better yet, return to the one that makes better sense.. Do you think it is realistic that I will get off all of these poisonous drugs?  I really hope to have some good years left. You all have worked very hard on developing a better “plan” for me and I want to get back to it.  

Thank you for everything.  

Respectfully,

Lookinup

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Lookinup

Interesting, just saw on the Mirtazapine Withdrawal Support site a comment by someone who was still on benzos when w/d from Mirtz. And he learned from a psych. that Mirt. Diminishes the effects of benzo when discontinued.  I truly believe that is what happened to me when I jumped off. Wasn’t long before Klonopin caused problems. Had taken that at night time for years without any problem.  And, there seems to be a pattern with those on benzos when w/d from Mirt. — worse.  Have you heard anything about that?  I may need new dr.

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Lookinup
13 hours ago, Lookinup said:

Interesting, just saw on the Mirtazapine Withdrawal Support site a comment by someone who was still on benzos when w/d from Mirtz. And he learned from a psych. that Mirt. Diminishes the effects of benzo when discontinued.  I truly believe that is what happened to me when I jumped off. Wasn’t long before Klonopin caused problems. Had taken that at night time for years without any problem.  And, there seems to be a pattern with those on benzos when w/d from Mirt. — worse.  Have you heard anything about that?  I may need new dr.

 

13 hours ago, Lookinup said:

Interesting, just saw on the Mirtazapine Withdrawal Support site a comment by someone who was still on benzos when w/d from Mirtz. And he learned from a psych. that Mirt. Diminishes the effects of benzo when discontinued.  I truly believe that is what happened to me when I jumped off. Wasn’t long before Klonopin caused problems. Had taken that at night time for years without any problem.  And, there seems to be a pattern with those on benzos when w/d from Mirt. — worse.  Have you heard anything about that?  I may need new dr.

Last year, when the Klonopin acted up, I contacted Jennifer Leigh, the benzo consultant on line. She said the same thing that when I jumped from Remeron I effectively lowered the blood serum of K.  It was then the combination of ongoing Mirt w/d and what turned into benzo w/d that sent me to rehab, then that fiasco.  I am so scared of upsetting the valium and leaving it for as long as it will take for Mirt d/c. 

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