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Lookinup's intro: please help

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Lookinup

Do these drugs work synergistically and need to be tapered at the same time as she suggested?  I am so tired of drugs!

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Lookinup

I’m sorry to keep bothering you, but this is a tough nut.  If the Valium is paradoxical, I am not getting the calming effect from it,so how does that help the Mirtz w/d?  .

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Lookinup
1 hour ago, Lookinup said:

 

Last year, when the Klonopin acted up, I contacted Jennifer Leigh, the benzo consultant on line. She said the same thing that when I jumped from Remeron I effectively lowered the blood serum of K.  It was then the combination of ongoing Mirt w/d and what turned into benzo w/d that sent me to rehab, then that fiasco.  I am so scared of upsetting the valium and leaving it for as long as it will take for Mirt d/c. 

There is another dr. That would most likely be agreeable to the Valium taper, but he may want to draw it down pretty far.  I am listening to you.  You know more than any of them.  Thank you very much!

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Altostrata

From your daily symptom pattern, it is clear you are getting a paradoxical reaction from your Valium doses. The mirtazapine you're taking is not relevant.

 

You are getting a paradoxical reaction shortly after you take Valium. When it wears off a little, it is doing what Valium does.

 

No, mirtazapine and Valium do not have to be reduced at the same time.

 

I can't prescribe drugs. If you want to reduce Valium first, you'll have to find a doctor who will work with you. Otherwise, you'll have to work with the doctor you have. This is a problem you need to solve yourself.

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Lookinup
23 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

From your daily symptom pattern, it is clear you are getting a paradoxical reaction from your Valium doses. The mirtazapine you're taking is not relevant.

 

You are getting a paradoxical reaction shortly after you take Valium. When it wears off a little, it is doing what Valium does.

 

No, mirtazapine and Valium do not have to be reduced at the same time.

 

I can't prescribe drugs. If you want to reduce Valium first, you'll have to find a doctor who will work with you. Otherwise, you'll have to work with the doctor you have. This is a problem you need to solve yourself.

I have an appointment with. Dr who I think will taper Valium first. He most likely will want to go all the way with it.  Glad to hear they both don’t have to be reduced at same time.  Thanks for listening.  Yes, the paradoxical effect is a problem.  

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Lookinup

If this dr. Is okay with Brassmonkey plan and wants to get off and not just reduce over a long period of time, does that sound like a good plan?  And would you mind helping along the way?  It sure would be nice not taking that Valium.  Thank you for everything you have done for me along this path.  Hope to begin the journey real soon.

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Altostrata

I cannot negotiate with a doctor for you. You'll have to figure out what you can do with the resources you have.

 

If I were you, I reduce Valium to eliminate the paradoxical effect, then taper Seroquel. Seroquel is a more destructive drug than Valium. You can resume Valium tapering later.

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Lookinup
4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

I cannot negotiate with a doctor for you. You'll have to figure out what you can do with the resources you have.

 

If I were you, I reduce Valium to eliminate the paradoxical effect, then taper Seroquel. Seroquel is a more destructive drug than Valium. You can resume Valium tapering later.

I hear you loud and clear.  Will discuss all of this on the 23rd.  Thank you so very much!

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Lookinup
On 6/11/2020 at 2:01 PM, Lookinup said:

I hear you loud and clear.  Will discuss all of this on the 23rd.  Thank you so very much!

I am going to try to move up the appointment to next week. I am so bothered by this. If this psych is willing to go along with the plan, which I feel he will because he wanted me off the benzos. Is it okay leaving the Remeron for the duration?  I am also going to discuss the Seroquel.  I really want to stay on board with you and feel better with your support.  I will let you how it goes.  

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Altostrata

@brassmonkey @DataGuy @Frogie would you be able to advise Lookinup about how to make a liquid from her Valium so she can start to lower her dosage?

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Frogie
Posted (edited)

Hi Lookinup:

 

I’m going to give you some information on making your own liquid. But have @brassmonkeymake sure it’s correct before you proceed.

 

You are taking 12.5 mg Valium, correct? That’s what your signature shows.

 

Valium is s not water soluble. You must dissolve it in vodka. 
 

I would take 1 ml of vodka, dissolve the Valium in it, then add 11.5 ml water to the solution. Put it in a jar with a lid and shake it well. Then it becomes a 1:1 solution. Keep it in the fridge. You’ll have to make it daily, or you could double the numbers for a couple days worth. Just make sure you shake it before taking each dose. You’ll also need a dosing syringe, but I was able to get them from the pharmacy for free. I even got a couple from the vets office. 
 

We will just say you want to taper by 5% (that’s a pretty good amount on a benzo). You would draw up 2.4 ml morning, 2.4 ml afternoon, and 7.15 ml night (I rounded the numbers). 
 

You can also crush and weigh the tablets. If you want to do that I can explain that also. You’ll need a scale and gel caps. Easily purchased on Amazon.

 

 I saw where you were going to talk to psychiatrist about your meds. Just please make sure you only taper one at a time so you know if you’re having symptoms and a mod can figure out what’s going on and help you.

 

 I hope I helped you. Brassmonkey can look at this and make sure I explained it correctly.

 

Take care,

 Frogie xx

Edited by Frogie

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brassmonkey

Very good job Frogie.  Lookingup is in good hands.

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Frogie
1 minute ago, brassmonkey said:

Very good job Frogie.  Lookingup is in good hands.

Thanks @brassmonkey

 

Just wanted you to make sure my calculations were correct.

 

Have a great weekend L

 

Take care,

 Frogie xx

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Altostrata

Lookinup does not have to take all her daily Valium dosing in liquid form. We are looking to reduce the 9 a.m. dose first, then the 8 p.m. dose.

 

On 6/9/2020 at 5:12 AM, Lookinup said:

6:00 a.m. Tirosent 88 mg

7:30 a.m. Breakfast; fish oil

8:00 a.m. Prozac .78 ml normal hr

9:00 a.m Valium 2.19 mg.- noticed increased hr. for about 1/2 hr.

10:00 a.m. Video appt. with cardiologist - doesn’t like any of the drugs.  Said I could take Propanolol if needed,  Not too

concerned about hr reaching 100 though agrees it isn’t normal for Valium.

10:30 noticed muscle tightness in calf and some pain in shoulder joints

12:00. Lunch; anxiety

Noticed numbness on bottom of left foot near toes and also in corner of mouth

2:00 p,.m. Valium 2.50.  Do not notice as much of an increase in hr at this dosing; 

3:00 p.m. anxiety

6:00 p.m. dinner - numbness in foot; tingling hand

6:30 p.m.- painful left shoulder joint

7:00 p.m. - watching t.v.; anxiety

8:00 p.m. - Valium 7.5 - dread this dose.- Not as bad as last night, deep breathing helped some

9:00 p.m  - Remeron 3.75 and Seroquel 50 mg; about 1/2 Hour to get to sleep

4:00 a.m. - adrenaline spike; palpitations; deep breathing

5:00 a.m. - back to sleep

7:20 a.m. - Tirosent - okay; 

7:45 a.m. - out of bed; foot numbness on soles

 

Please explain to Lookinup how to make a liquid for the 9 a.m. dose. She will take tablets for the other doses while the 9 a.m. dosage change settles.

 

Lookinup, what size are your Valium tablets? How do you measure 2.19mg, your 9 a.m. dose?

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Frogie
Posted (edited)

This is what I would do then...

 

 I would take the 2.19 mg morning dose and double the dosage to make it easier to dissolve in the vodka, or a 5 mg Valium tablet since it doesn’t come in 2.19 mgs.

 

Take 5 mg Valium and dissolve it in 1 ml vodka, then add 4 ml water.
 

To do a 5% taper on 2.19 mg, draw up 2.10 ml in the syringe (once again, I rounded up).

 

Then following the directions above, you should be ok.

Edited by Frogie

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Lookinup
1 hour ago, Frogie said:

Hi Lookinup:

 

I’m going to give you some information on making your own liquid. But have @brassmonkeymake sure it’s correct before you proceed.

 

You are taking 12.5 mg Valium, correct? That’s what your signature shows.

 

Valium is s not water soluble. You must dissolve it in vodka. 
 

I would take 1 ml of vodka, dissolve the Valium in it, then add 11.5 ml water to the solution. Put it in a jar with a lid and shake it well. Then it becomes a 1:1 solution. Keep it in the fridge. You’ll have to make it daily, or you could double the numbers for a couple days worth. Just make sure you shake it before taking each dose. You’ll also need a dosing syringe, but I was able to get them from the pharmacy for free. I even got a couple from the vets office. 
 

We will just say you want to taper by 5% (that’s a pretty good amount on a benzo). You would draw up 2.4 ml morning, 2.4 ml afternoon, and 7.15 ml night (I rounded the numbers). 
 

You can also crush and weigh the tablets. If you want to do that I can explain that also. You’ll need a scale and gel caps. Easily purchased on Amazon.

 

 I saw where you were going to talk to psychiatrist about your meds. Just please make sure you only taper one at a time so you know if you’re having symptoms and a mod can figure out what’s going on and help you.

 

 I hope I helped you. Brassmonkey can look at this and make sure I explained it correctly.

 

Take care,

 Frogie xx

Thank you, Froggie, I appreciate your help with this.  I am hoping for drs. RX, but can’t count on that. I sure do appreciate everyone’s hep from SA.  You are all taking good care of me and I need it!  

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Frogie
1 minute ago, Lookinup said:

Thank you, Froggie, I appreciate your help with this.  I am hoping for drs. RX, but can’t count on that. I sure do appreciate everyone’s hep from SA.  You are all taking good care of me and I need it!  

You’re very welcome!

 

Hopefully the dr will write a prescription for liquid and your tablets. It would make it much easier.

 

If you need any other help, I would be happy to do what I can.

 

Take care,

 Frogie xx

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Lookinup
57 minutes ago, Frogie said:

You’re very welcome!

 

Hopefully the dr will write a prescription for liquid and your tablets. It would make it much easier.

 

If you need any other help, I would be happy to do what I can.

 

Take care,

 Frogie xx

Me too. Thanks to everyone helping out!

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Lookinup
2 hours ago, Frogie said:

Thanks @brassmonkey

 

Just wanted you to make sure my calculations were correct.

 

Have a great weekend L

 

Take care,

 Frogie xx

Thank you too,Brassmonkey.  I will use the online calculator to make adjustments when needed.

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Lookinup

Telephone conversation with a different doc this afternoon. Also upset that Remeron was added to the picture and due to my severe withdrawals from that drug, he also wants me to taper it and get rid of it before anything else.   Suggested I do a slight taper of Valium .01 ml a day also if I can handle it.  Willing to write for compounded Mirt. And liquid valium for slight taper if interested or to keep up with the current morning dose of 2.19.  Explained the paradoxical reaction and he not concerned because my hr returns to normal after a brief time.  So, it looks like I am in for a Mirt taper. He is not sure whether to do 5% every 30 days or more frequently.. And, is it too much to do that slight valium taper with it?  Told him I’d get back to him when I figure out how many days.  Also told him I am very worried about Seroquel. Says we can address that after Mirt.  Ugh!  Thank you for all you help with this. I am so distressed.

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Frogie
3 hours ago, Lookinup said:

Telephone conversation with a different doc this afternoon. Also upset that Remeron was added to the picture and due to my severe withdrawals from that drug, he also wants me to taper it and get rid of it before anything else.   Suggested I do a slight taper of Valium .01 ml a day also if I can handle it.  Willing to write for compounded Mirt. And liquid valium for slight taper if interested or to keep up with the current morning dose of 2.19.  Explained the paradoxical reaction and he not concerned because my hr returns to normal after a brief time.  So, it looks like I am in for a Mirt taper. He is not sure whether to do 5% every 30 days or more frequently.. And, is it too much to do that slight valium taper with it?  Told him I’d get back to him when I figure out how many days.  Also told him I am very worried about Seroquel. Says we can address that after Mirt.  Ugh!  Thank you for all you help with this. I am so distressed.

I’m not a mod, and I don’t know your situation completely, but I do think you should only taper one med at a time.

 

Didn’t Alto want you to reduce your morning Valium dose and see how that goes? Maybe you could get the liquid Valium and tablets (for your afternoon and evening dose) and reduce the morning dose and see how it goes? The only reason I say only reduce one med at a time is because if you have a reaction, they will know which med it was and be able to assess the situation.

 

At least this dr has some sense about tapering at 5% a month.

 

 I hope you can figure this out and get some relief.

 

Take care,

 Frogie xx

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Lookinup
8 minutes ago, Frogie said:

I’m not a mod, and I don’t know your situation completely, but I do think you should only taper one med at a time.

 

Didn’t Alto want you to reduce your morning Valium dose and see how that goes? Maybe you could get the liquid Valium and tablets (for your afternoon and evening dose) and reduce the morning dose and see how it goes? The only reason I say only reduce one med at a time is because if you have a reaction, they will know which med it was and be able to assess the situation.

 

At least this dr has some sense about tapering at 5% a month.

 

 I hope you can figure this out and get some relief.

 

Take care,

 Frogie xx

Thanks, Frogie.  Yes, Alto wanted me to reduce the a.m. Valium then work on the evening dose.  Now getting the Valium is not an issue,  Remeron is!  Two docs are more concerned with me getting off that and both are want to write it compounded. Have pleaded with them to just REDUCE the Valium first due to hr increase.  Yes, Remeron is a very difficult drug for me to withdrawal from, but in time, I can do a long taper from that. I truly believe Alto has it right and I’m not giving up.  She has been very helpful to me and so perceptive.  Basically am being forced to get off Remeron.  Yes, at least they know about tapering 5% a month.  Thank you again. I was so settled on finally having a plan. 

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Altostrata
3 hours ago, Lookinup said:

Telephone conversation with a different doc this afternoon. Also upset that Remeron was added to the picture and due to my severe withdrawals from that drug, he also wants me to taper it and get rid of it before anything else.   Suggested I do a slight taper of Valium .01 ml a day also if I can handle it.  Willing to write for compounded Mirt. And liquid valium for slight taper if interested or to keep up with the current morning dose of 2.19.  Explained the paradoxical reaction and he not concerned because my hr returns to normal after a brief time.  So, it looks like I am in for a Mirt taper. He is not sure whether to do 5% every 30 days or more frequently.. And, is it too much to do that slight valium taper with it?  Told him I’d get back to him when I figure out how many days.  Also told him I am very worried about Seroquel. Says we can address that after Mirt.  Ugh!  Thank you for all you help with this. I am so distressed.

 

If he's willing to write you a prescription for liquid Valium so you can taper, why don't you take it? You can reduce Valium part-way, then go off Remeron.

 

You don't have to do the things he tells you to do at the same time.

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Frogie
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Lookinup said:

Thanks, Frogie.  Yes, Alto wanted me to reduce the a.m. Valium then work on the evening dose.  Now getting the Valium is not an issue,  Remeron is!  Two docs are more concerned with me getting off that and both are want to write it compounded. Have pleaded with them to just REDUCE the Valium first due to hr increase.  Yes, Remeron is a very difficult drug for me to withdrawal from, but in time, I can do a long taper from that. I truly believe Alto has it right and I’m not giving up.  She has been very helpful to me and so perceptive.  Basically am being forced to get off Remeron.  Yes, at least they know about tapering 5% a month.  Thank you again. I was so settled on finally having a plan. 

I’m sorry to hear this. But you should take Alto’s advise and get the Valium to reduce it.

Edited by Frogie

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Lookinup
4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

If he's willing to write you a prescription for liquid Valium so you can taper, why don't you take it? You can reduce Valium part-way, then go off Remeron.

 

You don't have to do the things he tells you to do at the same time.

 

4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

If he's willing to write you a prescription for liquid Valium so you can taper, why don't you take it? You can reduce Valium part-way, then go off Remeron.

 

You don't have to do the things he tells you to do at the same time.

Hi Altostrata,  I know. My problem is that I will not be getting my current dose of Remeron—both want to compound it. One suggested the 5% reduction of Remeron AND small reduction of Valium.  I’m not giving up. Don’t these drs. Want you off benzos first??? I would much prefer doing what YOU feel is best!

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Altostrata

Are you getting a liquid or compounded capsules? As we've told you many times, you have more flexibility with a liquid.

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Lookinup
8 minutes ago, Frogie said:

I’m sorry to hear this. But you should take Alto’s advise and get the Valium to reduce it.

Sounds the same as these drs.  Now they want to be taper experts!

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Frogie
Just now, Lookinup said:

Sounds the same as these drs.  Now they want to be taper experts!

Most dr.’s do but they have no clue. I found that out the hard way.

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Lookinup
1 minute ago, Altostrata said:

Are you getting a liquid or compounded capsules? As we've told you many times, you have more flexibility with a liquid.

Capsules.  Is 5% a month for Remeron suggested for 3.75 mg?   I haven’t committed to either of them.  Told them I have to think about it. Am in holding pattern.

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Altostrata

Okay. Let's say you couldn't ask questions here. How would you solve your problem?

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Lookinup
1 minute ago, Altostrata said:

Okay. Let's say you couldn't ask questions here. How would you solve your problem?

Good question!  I would have to consult with my family doc, which I wouldn’t want to do.  There is a psy. Nurse practioner, with whom I have an appointment on the 30th. She is well aware of you and your site, Ashton Manual, etc.  Only problem with her is that she cannot write prescriptions. But, I would have a conversation with her about it.  Interesting because one of the doctors loves the Brassmonkey plan.  He knows I got that from your site.  Finally, I would continue speaking to more psychs.  Most, though would most likely be more dangerous than the “taper docs.”  I love that you are here!  I need to feel like I am doing what is best for me. You definitely want that too.  I have a lot to live for and I know you can get me off all of this crap in time.  

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Lookinup
23 minutes ago, Frogie said:

Most dr.’s do but they have no clue. I found that out the hard way.

Not defending Remeron. That is an awful drug.  I am getting a lot of numbness in my left foot and I am thinking it is coming from Mirt.  Also, had hormonal crash last year when I jumped off at 1.8 mg that caused major thyroid level problems. I would love for that to be gone, but I’m sure you had a time for it to happen.

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Altostrata

I can't solve this for you. If you want to eliminate the adverse effects of too much Valium, you will need to reduce Valium. You could do that by making your own liquid with part of your current daily Valium dose OR getting a scale and weighing the contents of a Valium capsule.

 

Otherwise, you will have to either talk one of these doctors, who seem otherwise cooperative, into writing you a prescription for the compounded Valium liquid or capsules, OR follow one of their taper plans and go off Remeron first.

 

No need to report the blow-by-blow descriptions of your conversations with your doctors.

 

You decide.

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Lookinup
1 minute ago, Altostrata said:

I can't solve this for you. If you want to eliminate the adverse effects of too much Valium, you will need to reduce Valium. You could do that by making your own liquid with part of your current daily Valium dose OR getting a scale and weighing the contents of a Valium capsule.

 

Otherwise, you will have to either talk one of these doctors, who seem otherwise cooperative, into writing you a prescription for the compounded Valium liquid or capsules, OR follow one of their taper plans and go off Remeron first.

 

No need to report the blow-by-blow descriptions of your conversations with your doctors.

 

You decide.

Okay, I gotcha. If I got off the Remeron first, would you recommend the 5% reduction per month.  I thought it was 10%. Is it harder to make cuts coming from a low dose of 3.5?  I not done with the other plan.  I will let you know.

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Altostrata

We're now 11 pages in, discussing your tapering. You should know how to taper by now. What do you think is the best way for you to taper Remeron?

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Lookinup
1 minute ago, Altostrata said:

We're now 11 pages in, discussing your tapering. You should know how to taper by now. What do you think is the best way for you to taper Remeron?

Yea, what a mess!  I guess I would start out with 5% and see how it goes. If I feel stable, maybe ask to make more frequent cuts than one month or try larger taper.  I really am learning a lot from you!  

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