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Armorall: CT from bupropion and risperidone

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Altostrata

Armorall, since the beginning of October, would you say you're better or worse overall?

 

Please read The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

What are you doing for exercise? What is your daily drug, supplement, or herb regimen?

 

You seem to be very sensitive to material you read online. Anxiety over it disturbs your sleep. Perhaps you might do this less -- especially before bed in the evening -- and get out more for gentle exercise, such as walking, more. This helps the body work better and nervous system to recover. You might look into

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

 

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

Health anxiety, hypochondria, and obsession with symptoms

 

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

 

If I were you, I would not reinstate bupropion, a drug that has anxiety and sleeplessness as a common side effect. If anything, my guess is you're experiencing withdrawal symptoms from the antipsychotics and your nervous system has been sensitized by all the drug adverse reactions and switches.

 

It will take time, probably months, for your nervous system to settle down, with bumps long the way. You'll need to be patient. I think meditation and "change the channel" would be very helpful to you.

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Armorall
2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Armorall, since the beginning of October, would you say you're better or worse overall?

 

I'd say worse. My days of anxiety/depression are about the same, but my sleep has been breaking up more and more. I thought it might be the acupuncture/herbs, but I've eliminated those and my sleep is still getting worse. Last night was the worst I've had, had anxiety rushes before bed, I couldn't get back to sleep after 2:30am (after being woken up with an anxiety rush at 12:30am, which has not happened before). I've had less just toss n turn nights and more anxiety rushes that are waking me up. I also have more burning on my arms when I sleep on them, and I also got tinnitus this month. I re-read the "windows and waves" pattern. So, I had a good window from last Saturday until Monday night, then even crappier sleep than ever the rest of the week. So..this is supposed to be a sign of healing? A weekend window, then waves through the week? 

 

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What are you doing for exercise? What is your daily drug, supplement, or herb regimen?

 

I wake up and take 160 mg of magnesium (natural calm). At breakfast I have 600 mg fish oil and 400mg vitamin E (I would take more fish oil but it seems to be too activating).

Around dinner time I take 100 mg of liquid magnesium. 

For exercise I do a half hour on an elliptical, or I do a half hour with Figure 8 (a combined ab and cardio workout, very light) when I get home from work in the evening. 

 

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

If I were you, I would not reinstate bupropion, a drug that has anxiety and sleeplessness as a common side effect. If anything, my guess is you're experiencing withdrawal symptoms from the antipsychotics and your nervous system has been sensitized by all the drug adverse reactions and switches.

Yes, I think I was thinking that if nothing ever improves for me in the next two years, perhaps I will look into taking something again, not necessarily what I was on. But, I see the risk in the kindling effect or trying to take a new drug after we have destabilized CNS, so I don't know. 

 

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

It will take time, probably months, for your nervous system to settle down, with bumps long the way. You'll need to be patient. I think meditation and "change the channel" would be very helpful to you.

If it only takes months, I'll be so excited. So I can regard these harder sleep nights as the "bumps" then. I will try more meditation, it is difficult with a toddler in the house. And "change the channel" I will force myself to do. 

I was excited to hear about some folks' success with CBD oil and anxiety. Do you think it interferes with healing though? 

Thanks @Altostrata 

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Armorall

I should say, the anxiety rushes are more powerful in October as well and I've lost the ability to nap in October either at all or without getting hit with a rush  20-30 or so minutes into sleep. 

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Shep

Armorall, I received your PM but am going to post here in your thread so you'll have everything in one place.

 

Regarding C/T progress in healing at the 1 - 3 month mark, you're correct that many people who go cold turkey are still very symptomatic at that timeframe. But then again, so are many people who taper. But that's not an indication that people don't heal. Withdrawal is unforgiving in the time it takes us to heal, but I wouldn't go with terms like "permanent". This is a great thread for the timeline: 

 

Are We There Yet? How Long is Withdrawal Going to Take?

 

 

17 minutes ago, Armorall said:

So..this is supposed to be a sign of healing? A weekend window, then waves through the week? 

 

I think this is true for many of us who work - we find that the weekends are much better because we're not having to deal with work stress.

 

If you're able to periodically take some vacation hours or an entire day off in the middle of the week, that can help, too. 

 

23 minutes ago, Armorall said:

For exercise I do a half hour on an elliptical, or I do a half hour with Figure 8 (a combined ab and cardio workout, very light) when I get home from work in the evening. 

 

You may want to switch to doing this type of exercise in the morning instead of in the evening. Even light cardio can ramp up the nervous system. Some of us find evening exercise too activating during withdrawal. 

 

Yoga can be a better nighttime exercise, leaving cardio for the morning. Might be worth experimenting to see if it helps to change the time. 

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Altostrata

You have a good attitude, Armorall.

 

It could be you had some reaction to the herbs that made your nervous system jumpy again.

 

What can you do to improve sleep? You've darkened your bedroom, correct? How about 10 minutes of meditation before bed, doable?

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Armorall
40 minutes ago, Shep said:

I think this is true for many of us who work - we find that the weekends are much better because we're not having to deal with work stress.

 

If you're able to periodically take some vacation hours or an entire day off in the middle of the week, that can help, too. 

Yes, I had the weekend window, but it included Monday as well. But does have windows and waves indicate healing?

 

42 minutes ago, Shep said:

You may want to switch to doing this type of exercise in the morning instead of in the evening. Even light cardio can ramp up the nervous system. Some of us find evening exercise too activating during withdrawal. 

Unfortunately if I do the exercise in the morning, then that leaves me with one hour less of sleep than the 3-4 hours that I've been clocking in. I'm not very rigorous about my exercise, it's the equivalent of walking. 

 

27 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

It could be you had some reaction to the herbs that made your nervous system jumpy again.

No, I had stopped taking the herbs two weeks ago. 

 

29 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

What can you do to improve sleep? You've darkened your bedroom, correct? How about 10 minutes of meditation before bed, doable?

Yes, but I usually don't have trouble falling asleep. I'm woken up a few hours later with the anxiety rushes. 

 

Does anyone have any input about the CBD oil- if it would inhibit healing? 

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Altostrata

Effect of CBD oil is unpredictable. Some like it, some don't.

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Armorall

But is it like 5htp where you think it would inhibit the healing of our receptors? 

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Shep

We really don't know what's involved with CBD oil, so start small if you do decide to use it. Keep in mind the more you supplements, herbs, etc. you add to the mix, the more complicated you make your withdrawal. And adding in sedating items increases the likelihood of paradoxical reactions. 

 

Please see the thread: 

 

Cannabis, marijuana, THC, and CBD or Hemp oil

 

And this post by JanCarol which addresses the 5-HT1A receptor. 

 

 

On 12/1/2018 at 8:42 AM, JanCarol said:

From the article posted above, here is a clue about withdrawal:
 

https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/article/supplements-articles/how-to-use-cbd-oil/

 

Quote

Instead, CBD acts as an agonist on an entirely different receptor called the 5-HT1A receptor, and this is how CBD actually works as an antidepressant with anti-anxiety and neuroprotective effects. It also serves as what is called an “allosteric modulator” of your opioid receptors, which is how it works to remove pain and reduce the effects of chronic inflammation. Other positive medical effects of CBD (there’s over 60 of them, if you care to read up on them here) are due to increased intracellular calcium release and agonism of another receptor called the PPAR-γ receptor.

 

 

But there's that 5-HT1A receptor.  Agonist.  So that could mess up withdrawal big time.

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Armorall

I just saw someone else in the threads that only took Risperidone for 1 month C/T, two years later he is still have the same issues.  This is my fate? I used to think I may have had a leg up with my drug intake being "brief" but now it doesn't seem like that. 

 

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Armorall

I was wrong, the aforementioned party is actually healing!

 

In terms of CBD, I may just look to it as a last resort. Depending  on how long I think I can keep this up. Some people on here report success with it. 

So, if I took it, if it actually helps with anxiety/sleep, then am I in the clear for taking it? Is it just that if there's a paradoxical reaction then the "agonist" issue would arise?

Or, if I take it and still have success with it, it still could be damaging my withdrawal continuum of healing? 

 

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Armorall

So,  I woke up with a 12:30am pang of anxiety. Took about 1mg of melatonin and I think it energized me. I tried to take less than that before and it didn't do anything. I think I may have entered the "every other night I get some sleep" sleep schedule that I hear happens among people. I don't know how I'm going to go to work like this. 

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Armorall

Shep, I reread the "how long is withdrawal going to take". Since I am a C/T it says this:

Reading through SA you will find many, many examples of people CTing who are still struggling three to five years later.  In the extreme there are members who report struggling as far out as seven or eight years.

 

So, I'm not going to find any relief for over 5 years. 

It looks like I can't mitigate it because my drug history is so confusing. But is it possible that after two years, I could just straight up try another drug in the event it will curtail my anxiety/insomnia? That I wouldn't have a risk of kindling effect or anything? 

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Armorall

"Here are many people who come to my website who have gone off cold turkey and they are suffering terribly.  And there is nothing that can be done for them.  If some time has passed and we cannot reinstate the drug all they can do is wait until they heal."

 
"when you get off psychiatric drugs if you do not do it in the right way the psychiatric hell does not end. "
 
The above is from Altostrata's talk.  What can I do? 

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Armorall

I finally understood what all the fuss is about with tapering. People seem so much happier and predictable with it. I am envious. 

There's no way I can reinstate the risperidone? I'm almost 4 months out....I wasn't actually having an adverse reaction to it- I felt fine on it, but it was elevating my prolactin levels, which is how the beginning of getting off of everything came to me. 

Yes, another night of complete insomnia may be upon me. I haven't had two days in a row, so this is new. 

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Armorall

@AltostrataI  wish I had been more clearer from the get go in September that the risperidone felt fine to me, just elevating my prolactin levels. I could have easily gone back on it. 

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Armorall

So what should have happened if I were to come off my original drugs was that I should have slowly tapered off Risperidone, then Wellbutrin.  I now hate my psych even more. 

How long will the chaos of a CT live within me then?  

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Armorall

I would like to try the lamotragine. Since I'm not in the tapering club, I don't know what tools I will need to weigh things out, break them down, etc etc. Any suggestions on brands and things for gem scales, droppers, pill cutters etc. 

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Armorall

Did the lamictal also help with anxiety or just sleep? 

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Altostrata

We cannot predict how long it will take for any individual to recover. There is no basis for assuming you'll be among the worst cases, that's just the way you look at the world. Everyone with long-term drug adverse effects has to get used to uncertainty.

 

When we say effects of CBD oil are unpredictable, that means no one can predict how it will affect you. We don't have any information beyond that. Sorry.

 

If the withdrawal effects are intolerable, if I were you, I might reinstate 0.25mg Risperidal, rather than adding in or experimenting with new drugs. I say this with some misgiving as you had adverse reactions to all the antipsychotics you took, but that low dosage might help you sleep without elevating prolactin. You'd have to get a liquid to take that small a dose. If it works, I'd stabilize on it for some months and taper off by miniscule amounts later.

 

The decisions are up to you. Please let us know how you're doing.

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Armorall

Why would you advise against the lamictal? Do I seem to have different withdrawal needs? I'll consider the risperidone, I didn't know if I was too far out for it...thanks. Does the doctor you work with on your sleep still practice in SF? 

 

Sorry, I just for some reason really understood the difference in the outcomes of CT v. tapering (and I can see it in people's exchanges on the boards), largely from your talk and Brass Monkey's. 

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Altostrata
3 hours ago, Armorall said:

Why would you advise against the lamictal? Do I seem to have different withdrawal needs?

 

Because you've never tried Lamictal and it's a tricky drug to use.

 

Your symptom situation is very much like everyone else's here.

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Armorall

 Altostrata- I'd still like that info on the Dr. please.  I'd like to see what my possibilities are. 

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Armorall

@AltostrataI would still like the phone/info on the doctor please if you could be so kind. Maybe they can refer me to someone in my area, I live in a big city, too!

oops, sorry for the double post

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Shep
On 10/26/2019 at 6:29 PM, Armorall said:

So, I had a good window from last Saturday until Monday night, then even crappier sleep than ever the rest of the week. So..this is supposed to be a sign of healing? A weekend window, then waves through the week? 

 

On 10/28/2019 at 9:38 AM, Armorall said:

Reading through SA you will find many, many examples of people CTing who are still struggling three to five years later.  In the extreme there are members who report struggling as far out as seven or eight years.

 

So, I'm not going to find any relief for over 5 years. 

 

I received your PM but am answering it here.

 

You're reporting windows that last for days and then catastrophizing that you're going to be sick for 5 years without any relief. Most people who CT and are still sick 5 years later didn't have windows that lasted for several days in a row. 

 

And as I've posted before, some of your waves may be from taking Chinese herbs (you stopped that less than 3 weeks ago) and then having a reaction to acupuncture (less than 2 weeks ago). The fact that you had a 3-day window in spite of these reactions is a powerful sign that you're healing. That is, if you'd just stop trying to "fix" withdrawal.

 

There will be good days and bad days. 

 

Before adding in another drug, you may want to give your mind/body time to recover. 

 

Just my opinion. You'll need to make the decision that's right for you.

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Armorall

what I'm trying to mitigate is the seeming "spinning of wheels" that happens with CTs. All this is written in the descriptions for the arguements around tapering versus CT (which I got too late).

Brass Monkey points out that CTs continue to have windows and waves with no baseline improvement. I was trying to reinstate before it is too late.  But, you guys are the experts. If you see that trying to add something is going to do more harm than good, then I can't say much else. I looked at the reinstatement thread and it seems that people successfully reinstated more often than not. 

I don't know if they had an advantage because they were only coming off of one drug or not. 

The three day window was more like Saturday and Monday.

 

I am still getting worse, though. My sleep is consistently more broken up with anxiety rushes on a continuum, regardless of acupuncture or herbs. I don't feel like the usage of those would still be affecting me this far out, and my sleep is worse than when I was actually on them. And my anxiety pangs in the morning are stronger now. 

I am trying to prepare for the future. I'm trying to set up having other people join our household to take care of my son along with my husband since I will probably become more incapacitated as time goes on. 

I don't think I am catastrophizing, I can see how far along people are in their quests without baseline improvement. 

Anyway, it is pointless I guess. 

 Thanks for trying to give me hope and support. 

 

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Altostrata

Armorall, you are making an elaborate, impractical plan instead of trying the simplest solution first. I'm not going to support your plan. Sorry.

 

On 10/29/2019 at 11:28 AM, Altostrata said:

If the withdrawal effects are intolerable, if I were you, I might reinstate 0.25mg Risperidal, rather than adding in or experimenting with new drugs. I say this with some misgiving as you had adverse reactions to all the antipsychotics you took, but that low dosage might help you sleep without elevating prolactin. You'd have to get a liquid to take that small a dose. If it works, I'd stabilize on it for some months and taper off by miniscule amounts later.

 

I agree with Shep, you're leaping to the most disastrous conclusions. Strongly advise you to stay as calm as you can and not work yourself up.

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Armorall

@AltostrataIf the treatment worked for you, why can't I see if there's a way I can try it? It results in guiding the system back to homeostasis, a much better result than adding in the old drug and seeing if it works for mitigating one symptom and having all the rest, not to mention tapering etc etc. 

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Altostrata

My intuition tells me this pursuit of a new drug by you is a waste of my time, the doctor's time, and ultimately your time. The answer is no.

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Armorall

I still don't know why you think you were entitled to treatment but I shouldn't be.  Why can't I have a chance at it?  Didn't it work for you? I'm in the same boat as you.

 

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Shep

Armorall, no one is more or less "entitled" to treatment than anyone else.

 

Alto has explained that reinstating a small amount of the Risperidal is the better option. We almost always advocate reinstating a small amount of the drug you've already been exposed to as the first option before adding in a new drug. Lamictal may or may not help you and it does require tapering. There is no "fix" to withdrawal that we know of. You've posted about an adverse reaction to the Risperidal, which is why Alto posted a reinstatement amount that's very small. There's no guarantee that Lamictal will help and that it won't also cause an adverse reaction, especially in someone with a very sensitive nervous system. 

 

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Armorall

Ok, I will drop the Lamictal treatment. Now back on the fence about whether or not to reinstate Risperidone. 

Slept for 1.5 hours tonight,

Yesterday "slept" for 4 hours, took off work and kept sleeping with anxiety rushes waking me up for another two hours.

 

Ironic that I came off the wellbutrin to get my sleep back. I've made so much sense of the disaster that was August and wish I had done things differently. I wish I was back on everything. 

Can some people go back on their original meds after a year or so have passed? Or is the CNS way too destabilized at that point? 

 

I tried .75 of the melatonin the other night and that didn't work either. gave me weird cold sensations on my feet and hands. If I'm that sensitive, I might not try the risperidone, dunno, I'm so confused. Seeing doc on Saturday. 

 

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Armorall

Still don't know what to do about the risperidone. I think Altostrata and Shep would pick not to try to reinstate. I look on here, and there's been successful reinstatements at 4 months and with multiple drugs. (Nadia). Arg.

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Armorall

I have to think on if the move to reinstate seems more reasonable because I'm trying to fix the past (which wouldn't be good) or if I really think it would work. My insomnia is worse...

If I have an adverse reaction over a few days (or weeks) I would still have to then taper down from the small dose, or just abort it immediately? Or do adverse reactions usually happen right away?

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Altostrata

Please re-read this topic from the beginning regarding reinstating a small amount of risperidone.

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Armorall
On 10/29/2019 at 1:28 PM, Altostrata said:

If the withdrawal effects are intolerable, if I were you, I might reinstate 0.25mg Risperidal, rather than adding in or experimenting with new drugs. I say this with some misgiving as you had adverse reactions to all the antipsychotics you took, but that low dosage might help you sleep without elevating prolactin. You'd have to get a liquid to take that small a dose. If it works, I'd stabilize on it for some months and taper off by miniscule amounts later.

Yes, but do adverse reactions always happen immediately? My question is: if it days/weeks into using the dose and I get an adverse reaction later (not sure if that's possible) would I have to taper off of it then? Or are adverse reactions always immediate, so the discussion of a "post-adverse reaction taper" is moot?

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