☼ Armorall: CT from bupropion and risperidone

[Armorall]

@Altostrata should I start seeking out some of the remedies you used for menopause? If so, which should I try first?

 

"About menopause -- I was menopausal when I withdrew from Paxil. It seems that being in menopause or perimenopause might make women more vulnerable to withdrawal symptoms.

 

Menopausal changes also affect the autonomic nervous system as well as all other hormonal systems. You may have overlapping perimenopause and withdrawal symptoms.

 

I found a bit of relief from a tiny amount of a supplement called DHEA. I gradually worked up to 5mg at night and 2.5mg in the morning for a total of 7.5mg/day. (See cautions below.)

 

I also experimented with a tiny amount of progesterone cream, and that helped a bit, too.

 

Finally, in desperation when I lost the ability to sleep, after I had stopped using either DHEA and progesterone for quite a long while, I got a mini-estrogen patch (Menostar), which delivers .14mcg estrogen per day. This did calm me a bit. I am still using it.

 

All of the above hormonal treatments carry risk. Conservative gynecologists would not recommend them. I always was very careful to use tiny amounts."

[Armorall]

@Altostrata  or @brassmonkey also, what do you know about Claritin-D? I used it pretty regularly on and off for about 10 years,  last time being 2016. I looked and saw that ephedrine (and not sure how much pseudo-ephedrine would be similar) works by stimulating epinephrine production and stimulating alpha and beta-adrenergic receptors. Then I see that Wellbutrin downregulates norepinephrine.   In retrospect, I did have strong anxiety responses (crying, tired) to taking Claritin-D. Do you think I've worn out those receptors too much from Claritin-D to every have them upregulate again? Have you heard of anything like that? 

[Armorall]

Welp, it's happening. Everytime I start to fall asleep, I get the push of anxiety and I'm up. Did the krill oil do this? I should have known better than to take the full dose right off. I thought since I did well with the fish oil, that this would be the same. I was inspired to buy a fancier fish oil after reading CTM''s success story. 

[Altostrata]

Armorall, please look in the Symptoms and Self-Care forum for the discussions we have there about common medical problems. I do not give general medicine advice.

 

You are getting a paradoxical reaction when you get relaxed enough to sleep. What happened with the melatonin? Are you taking a little magnesium at night, or Epsom salts baths?

 

You might read these topics:

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

What is the sleep cycle?

 

Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

TV or computer use in evening can disrupt sleep: Bright light signals the brain that it's daytime

 

White noise devices for sleep

 

Update on milk peptides for sleep: Our friend Lactium again  

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

L-arginine for sleep  

 

Glycine for sleep?  

 

L-ornithine for sleep  

 

Taurine (L-taurine amino acid) for sleep  

 

L-Theanine for anxiety, insomnia  

 

Sleep and amino poop out -- rotate aminos  

 

[Sleepan]

9 hours ago, Altostrata said:

tting a paradoxical reaction when you get relaxe

 

@Altostrata I love all this new info to help sleep.  Thank you.  Can I suggest Meditations available on YouTube, for sleeping (or "sommeil" in French).  It is helping me a lot and also  my little two last changes on my protocole is including being consistent on doses and timing.  I feel on solid ground now.  And all your list to discover.  Again, thank you so much.

[Sleepan]

@Armorall  I also had this sudden rush of cortisol or adrenaline when I started my Total Insomnia in Oct, when I was going to bed.  Unable to sleep for long weeks totally is not fun.  I started Reinstatement 4 weeks ago and I only slept almost 2 weeks.  I was very inconsistent and impulsive.  I chose to believe in a spectacular healing for me.  ☺️ 

[Armorall]

@Altostrata yes, I''m a mess now. I called in. Slept peacefully from 7:30am until 11:30am ish, mom got me up. I went back to bed and bam, hypnic jerks and anxiety pings to wake me up every so often. It wasn't like December where I could just lay in bed with fatigue and drift in and out. 

 

The melatonin- I only take it when I can't sleep at night. Since I've had consecutive evenings of no sleep, I stopped taking it, I was only using it as a back pocket resource, but I guess I will start again. I think you said to take it along with sleep patterns- so at 9pm or so? I do take magnesium, I thought it too energizing for before night because my body isn't used to it. I'll consider the salt baths. 

 

I don't like this. The adrenaline rushes are making me queasy.

 

 @Sleepan your story scares me. Anyone out there reading, if you don't have encouragement for me or any constructive advice on how to deal with a symptom, please don't add to my thread with worse scenarios than what I've had so far as I'm very sensitive. 

 

[Sleepan]

@Armorall  Thank you for your honesty.  I'll be more careful. 

[Glosmom]

Hi @Armorall,

I just finished reading through your thread.   Even though you are experiencing windows and waves with your sleep cycle, you appear to be managing your withdrawal well.  You are able to work, sleep, go out, take care of your children and research all sorts of things online.  As frustrating as it may seem to you, from the outside looking in.....you are doing well. I pray my daughter will one day function even 1/2 as well and recover from the one antipsychotic she took. Good job!

 

 I just wanted to throw in a thought for you to ponder.  No matter if you are pre menopausal, perimenopausal, menopausal or post menopausal......all of those stages of a woman's fertility and hormone cycle are natural.  All women will go through the process.  Something that is natural as a life process is probably better left to unravel as nature intended.

 

 Worrying about it, throwing chemicals at it, throwing supplements at it, trying to figure out what stage you are in and how long they will each last.....will not change the fact that it is a natural process that all women go through.  Everyone goes through it differently and at different times.  The medical community tries to make money off of it and 'ease the symptoms' by doing the same things they do to help people cope with life stressors. Look how that works out, eh?   Consider accepting that your body is changing and will continue to change as you move through all the stages. Your appetite will be affected, your mood will be affected, your sleep will be affected, your sex drive will be affected and your menstrual cycle will be affected. It is all perfectly normal.  Try not to fix it and I imagine you will sail through much better than if you try.

 

Warmest Regards and may your healing journey continue with peace......Glosmom

[Armorall]

@Glosmom I really appreciate your uplifting words and I know I should be thankful for my condition. 

The reason why I was trying to see if there are things to abate perimenopause, is not because I want to resist it in and of itself, it's because I'm worried that if I don't control the ups and downs of menopause (and if there's a shot at controlling them) then it will further destabilize my CNS and delay my healing. 

You have a good point- trying to take in more drugs in order to quell menopause may hurt me in the end, I don't know.

My two reasons for trying to obtain other things to help quell symptoms (from WD or meno) is so I can keep my job, and so I can heal at a prime rate.

But yes, I could be screwing myself in the long run if I try to add anything else in.  It's just tough deciding. I'm not going to get reassigned next year to my job, I miss too many days. 

 

I'm not actually taking care of my adorable son- I  interact with him, but my parents moved in to take care of him. I am thankful as it's probably helping my CNS stay stable.

I'm so regretful because I already knew the affects of big pharma to an extend (not WD, but I've known people who died from reactions). I was just too distressed from an event that could have been completely avoidable, and I'm so regretful.  I won't go into the list of amazing gains I made in the last 5 years of my life only to have it come tumbling down from all this. I've always been a lifelong learner and have a gazillion skill sets that I wanted to teach my son (one of them being, I used to stand on street corners as an organizer and pass out anti-capitalist pamphlets...that's how much of a shame it is that I couldn't avoid taking drugs- I already knew the heartless exploitation that results in many things. I avoided the medical model when I gave birth to my son- in a bathtub with no drugs and 32 hours of labor. I knew that C-sections were money making schemes and also created to appease the schedules of doctors. We are treated like machines. 

All this I knew and I originally said no to the drugs. Then they made me feel stupid and I second guessed myself. I'd been suffering for a year and just wanted an end. What I needed was to nap for a week. 

Anyway, I know I'm complaining and need to be thankful. I know about your daughter and my heart goes out to you, you don't need to hear this. I need another outlet just to vent, and psychologists don't believe in withdrawal so it's just been aggravating talking to them. 

Thanks for your supportive words and much love to you and your daughter. I see you completed the taper, so it's just a matter of time. Have you ever talked to DrugFreeProf? She has a good story for her daughter- did a nice taper like yours and healed 100%! I'm sure that is the outcome for your daughter. It just took some time after the taper to 0 to kick in!  

Much love to you,

A

 

[Armorall]

@Sleepan thank you for your consideration- I know you couldn't have known where I would be coming from.  

Peace and healing to you,

A

[Sleepan]

Thank you.  I'm going to bed right now, and your message is most welcome.  Very nice of you to think about me.  Best wishes for a peaceful and healing night to you, @Armorall

[Armorall]

I slept from 3am until 7am last night. Woke up with cortisol sweat in response to the alarm going off. I think I'm back on track...I also didn't sleep until that late because I stayed home and napped. I wonder if it was the krill oil that may have thrown me off. The melatonin did work well, the hypnic jerks were less severe. Fingers crossed for a better night tonight.

[Glosmom]

So very fortunate that your parents are there to help you.  What a relief that must be!?  It is an unfortunate byproduct for many in withdrawal...either not being able to work/school, having to go part time or cut back completely.  The CNS just needs rest and time.  Fortunately, I have read multiple positive accounts of people getting back to work and school once they have healed (partially or fully.)  So it seems to be a temporary setback for most....not all...but most.  

 

And yes, thank you, I did read @DrugfreeProf daughter's tale and it was very helpful. Unfortunately, that story and all her comments about it have been removed so I have not been able to refer to it to use it for my own support.  Thank you for your kind words about, Glo.  We keep pushing through.  I know her recovery will take longer than many, due to her brain being 'special' in the first place.  But we are not giving up hope.

 

You did say this above "I'm worried that if I don't control the ups and downs of menopause (and if there's a shot at controlling them) then it will further destabilize my CNS and delay my healing." 

 

Those are very insightful words you wrote and you may want to pause and reflect that you are trying to "control" something you simply can not control.  You can not control your female hormone cycle and you can not control your withdrawal.  Trying to control it, may actually be what is destabilizing it further.  

 

Best wishes to you, @Armorall.  You will heal. You are healing. You will make it to the other side as long as you don't throw more pharmaceuticals at it.   Peace, Glosmom

[Armorall]

@Glosmom what I mean by controlling the hormone cycle is the effects- if you look at what Altostrata was doing, she was taking a menostar patch, DHEA and some progesterone cream to mitigate the effects of menopause. Again, what I'm trying to figure out is if I can minimize the ups and downs of menopause so as not to aggravate my CNS more since it is already aggravated with withdrawal. 

But yes, if adding drugs exacerbates my system more than helps, then I shouldn't. It's a tough call. I'm pretty much with you on it, but still speculating. I'm going to run with not taking anything for now. 

I'll send you DFP's story. Thanks for your support. 

Going back to the krill oil, since I stopped taking it, I stopped getting the weird pulsating temple on my left side. so hopefully getting rid of it also will help restore my sleep. 

[Altostrata]

On 1/23/2020 at 9:41 AM, Sleepan said:

 

@Altostrata I love all this new info to help sleep.  Thank you.  Can I suggest Meditations available on YouTube, for sleeping (or "sommeil" in French).  It is helping me a lot and also  my little two last changes on my protocole is including being consistent on doses and timing.  I feel on solid ground now.  And all your list to discover.  Again, thank you so much.

 

Please post suggestions in Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia -- the community will appreciate them.

[Sleepan]

I will.  Thank you.

[Superwoman]

Armorall, I am only 5 years younger then you.  I am not ready for menopause.  I feel old now.  I didn’t think it starts until 50 maybe. 

[Armorall]

That's the average, but the range is from 45-55. I'm just not sure what is happening now, there's no test to say whether or not I'm in menopause. 

[Armorall]

So, my husband and I are hypothetically talking about in 10 years, say I don't get better and in fact get worse to the point of being bedridden. He says he would leave me if I didn't try to go on a medication.

I told him that the chances of that working are very small and risk being kindled, to which their are horrific results. 

He insists that it would be worth it if it would make you feel better, but I keep telling him that the outcome is more often than not, much worse, and the prospect of horrific results are much higher.

Is there any compiled data on this type of situation, or do I just direct him to the anecdotals that I can think of?

Or...what do you think about the hypothetical situation? I would love answers, because this terrifies me that he wouldn't stick around in our marriage if I was bedridden. 

Is there any literature online on kindling in the AD sense? 

@Altostrata

[Erell]

Hi Amorall 

To be honest I find it is really a pitty To think like this.

 

You are terrified because of an hypothetical future situation that could never happen ! Do you see how strange it is ?

Don't get me wrong, I understand this , this is exactly the kind of behaviour that brought us all on meds.

But you can't live in anxious and négative what if. Nobody can predict the future.

 

You're drug free now, and in order To take care of yourself and stay drug free, I strongly advise you To work on this anxious projections and rather work on méditation and mindfullness, live in the now.

 

Have you ever read the "power of now" of Eckhart tolle?

 

Take care . 

[mustafa]

11 hours ago, Armorall said:

So, my husband and I are hypothetically talking about in 10 years, say I don't get better and in fact get worse to the point of being bedridden. He says he would leave me if I didn't try to go on a medication.

I told him that the chances of that working are very small and risk being kindled, to which their are horrific results. 

He insists that it would be worth it if it would make you feel better, but I keep telling him that the outcome is more often than not, much worse, and the prospect of horrific results are much higher.

Is there any compiled data on this type of situation, or do I just direct him to the anecdotals that I can think of?

Or...what do you think about the hypothetical situation? I would love answers, because this terrifies me that he wouldn't stick around in our marriage if I was bedridden. 

Is there any literature online on kindling in the AD sense? 

@Altostrata

10 years!!

If I understand right, you are afraid from worsening and you assume you won't be fine even after 10 years, if it is like this, then the way you think is thanks to withdrawals, of course you won't need this time and of course you won't worsen.

I don't think that we were created by a brain that don't have a chance to correct only one mistake; it was a mistake to be on ads but our brain won't blame us all our life for that mistake, he should and must fix this problem and a suitable much of time.

Don't stress yourself and I remind you that I feel what you suffer very much armoral, these withdrawals are very, very disabling to us and makes us with no any ability to do anything and sometimes we can't defend ourselves.

I don't really imagine how people who aren't going through ads' withdrawals can't estimate anything but may be they are excused.

Take care of yourself, dear❤️

[Armorall]

@mustafa   I appreciate your thinking it would be less than ten years. The truth is, we really don't know how long it will take, and I look at the number of success stories against participants on SA and well, you get the picture. I live into my WD as a permanent condition (but I have this as a luxury, as of right now, I don't suffer nearly as much as most) and if healing comes, that would be great. I also try to come from that idea to keep me from being antsy as to not trying to think of when recovery happens. And the prospect of getting worse could be there, I've definitely read accounts of people on the downswing as time goes on. 

Some people think that my recovery would be soon because my symptoms are on the milder side of things, but I haven't seen anything that says that severity of symptoms implies quicker healing. In Altostrata's theory of withdrawal, she does say that some researchers believe that the more severe the withdrawal, the longer withdrawal time, but others also say that severe withdrawal implies quicker neuroplasticity. I definitely see more recovery stories where people are going through heck before healing, so..

 

But, regardless, I'm looking for evidence to prove my husband wrong that going back on medication is any realistic option in that scenario. So, I'm looking for input from everyone else about it. If I got the official word from Alto, that would be good. 

[Armorall]

@Erell I see what you are saying, but the evidence/opinion that I'm seeking is about going back on meds in the event that someone is bedbound and still sick after 10 years. It's not so much stuck on the idea that it will be me, but thoughts on reinstatement after that long of a time.

 

I'm pretty sure that the SA would say that it is not recommended because of the high risk of kindling...but I wanted to see what people thought of that. Especially because my husband thinks that that is grounds for divorce because I wouldn't be "trying to get better". 

[mustafa]

2 hours ago, Armorall said:

would be great. I also try to come from that idea to keep me from being antsy

I can see how u need for reassurance, and I hope altostrata do this.

I use your above words as a push for myself, I tell myself: as iam able to hang on and iam 10 months in patience and only patience now, then I will be able to be on the other side, off and recovered from antidepressant.

I don't know about the difference between altostrata theory and others but I think the severity is relative. The withdrawals as withdrawals are severe for everyone, but they may differe in severity from someone to another, I think you shouldn't run behind this idea because this is of no use and won't make difference, focus on how to support yourself ❤️, I hope u understand me ..

Good night dear and sorry I passed by your thread without saying hello 😂, 

Excuse me ❤️❤️

[Armorall]

Hi @mustafa- I'm not running behind any theory of timelines on recovery, that's also why I think it is possible that I could still be sick in 10 years. I was just mentioning what others thought about timelines of recovery and what I have seen in relation to that, and basically telling there's no way to tell. You originally said that I wouldn't worsen or wouldn't take ten years, but no one really knows that, either. I have all possibilities in my mind, and hope for speedy recovery is of course what is in my heart. 

Thanks for stopping by and have a good day/night. 

[Armorall]

@AltostrataDo you have any input on kindling? 

[Altostrata]

Please use site search to find discussions of kindling.

[Armorall]

 So, I guess I'm starting to recognize my own waves now.  I can sleep again. Last night I came home exhausted (like I could barely perform the last 2 hours of work) napped, got up, ate, then still soundly slept until 5am or so. Stayed in bed and slept until the 7am alarm.  Stayed home, slept through the day, not sure what the night will bring, but I'm still dead tired. So, maybe I have short waves of insomnia followed by fatigue/ability to sleep? 

I feel like I'm losing my windows, though. I used to get them at night, and through the day on some days. Now, the night windows start later, and I'm seeing them less in the daytime. Also, I'm getting more heart palpitations and a weirder type of palpitation- one where I feeling my heart "bends" in another direction. 

[mustafa]

@Armorall, my friend,

I read your signature and found out that you had wellbuttin from Mars to August in 2019 and that means u had it for almost 6 months , is that right !?

[Armorall]

Almost 5 months

[Armorall]

Re; Brandi passing.

I originally put this on her thread, but realized out of honor  and not hijacking her thread I should put it here: @Shane88Lsaid in regard to her passing-

How god damn unfortunate...
Rest in peace.
If she was only given the proper care that she needed such as talk therapy and emotional-focused counselling instead of a cocktail of damaging substances, she would have most certainly improved.
Those doctors are simply horrible. 

 

I agree, and that's all I asked for when I went to the hospital for a similar reason. 

 

It tears me to pieces to read her story- I have so many aspects of her story in mine.

I too went into the hospital because of a psychotic break. From the moment I went in, I told them I wanted to develop coping skills, I kept grabbing counselor after counselor to just make time to talk to me because I wanted to figure out how to be empowered in my situation (I had no idea that the psych ward is really just to keep you safe and load you up with drugs, that longer therapy would come from admittance into a different facility). I was super proactive and actually many of my "mates" really adored my counseling skills when we all talked in group. I used to be life coach and I'm a teacher. 

Once I sat down to talk to the psychiatrist, I was aghast that they wanted me to take drugs. I told them I wanted to build coping skills, I took out a sheet of coping skills that I got from one of the group meetings and said I wanted to build off of that. The psychiatrist said none of that would work. I said the list was more succinct than any type of goals that I had ever worked on with my therapist (she was a crap intern therapist, I had no idea at the time that i needed a better quality one). The psychiatrist (and in the background, my crappy psychologist) insisted that I could have all the talk therapy in the world and it wouldn't do me any good (I was going twice a week); I needed this. 

In retrospect, yes, if I had been given the chance to focus on lowering my anxiety (like Shane is saying) instead of this Smart Love school of psychology that says all misfortune lies on a person because they think they deserve it, I would have been better off. Smart Love just exists where you talk and talk and hopefully you get that you are inflicting pain on yourself because you secretly think you don't deserve a better life. This obviously got me nowhere. 

Anyway, other aspects is that I'm a high flyer like Brandi. I made the most gains in test scores and had the most popular elective class in the entire school that I teach in last year. I've always created environmental conferences, concerts, played in bands, performed poetry, was part of a million groups around activism, soccer/hockey, my peers all wanted to duplicate my underground fashion sense, had some of the coolest style in our wedding, created huge theme parties and looked forward to investing all this talent into my young son and his future endeavors and adorable parties. I created lessons that always integrated social justice/history/art/music/literature in a way to engage my children in the inner city and give them pride and will to succeed through cultural affirmation and empowerment, awareness of the system that exploits them. Regretfully, I knew that big pharma exploited, I told this to my husband and that psychiatrist in shorter terms, yet, in my psychosis, I followed their directions anyway.

Anyway, I"m sorry to make this announcement about me, but I feel the story so much. I can hardly be with myself these days because of what I was. My son grows more alien to me everyday. 

I just can't shut up about my own past life, I know everyone has theirs. 

[Armorall]

So, I'm wondering if week to week I will flip between insomnia and fatigue. The first fatigue wave I thought I was getting better because I could sleep, now I know it's just another kind of wave. I'm back in the insomnia wave. The waves are interrupted with windows- yesterday I had a window all day long and took my son to a parade. I still get late night windows, too. They used to occur earlier in the day (like 8pm) but sometimes it doesn't happen until 10pm. Nothing else to report. Have no sense of getting "better" just having a different kind of wave now- not just insomnia waves. All waves are usually interrupted with an hour/hours of windows. It's rare to go from morning until night without feeling some sense of "normalcy". Just wish the windows got longer, I guess.  Thanks for your past encouragement @Erell @mustafa @Superwoman

[mustafa]

22 minutes ago, Armorall said:

So, I'm wondering if week to week I will flip between insomnia and fatigue. The first fatigue wave I thought I was getting better because I could sleep, now I know it's just another kind of wave. I'm back in the insomnia wave. The waves are interrupted with windows- yesterday I had a window all day long and took my son to a parade. I still get late night windows, too. They used to occur earlier in the day (like 8pm) but sometimes it doesn't happen until 10pm. Nothing else to report. Have no sense of getting "better" just having a different kind of wave now- not just insomnia waves. All waves are usually interrupted with an hour/hours of windows. It's rare to go from morning until night without feeling some sense of "normalcy". Just wish the windows got longer, I guess.  Thanks for your past encouragement @Erell @mustafa @Superwoman

Hi armorall, 

I missed your reply for my question,

I wanted to tell u that u had the drug for a small period compared to alot of us and hence( and I hope ), you won't need alot of time to fully recover.

It is very good that you feel normal for minutes, for me and for long months , I never felt normal.

I hope u are ok soon ❤️

[Armorall]

Thanks @mustafa, yes I had a window all day yesterday, then other days I get an hour, or a few hours here and there. Thank you for the well-wishes. I'm glad to read that you feel 85% healed, improvement is so great to hear. You are on your way!

[Superwoman]

1 hour ago, Armorall said:

So, I'm wondering if week to week I will flip between insomnia and fatigue. The first fatigue wave I thought I was getting better because I could sleep, now I know it's just another kind of wave. I'm back in the insomnia wave. The waves are interrupted with windows- yesterday I had a window all day long and took my son to a parade. I still get late night windows, too. They used to occur earlier in the day (like 8pm) but sometimes it doesn't happen until 10pm. Nothing else to report. Have no sense of getting "better" just having a different kind of wave now- not just insomnia waves. All waves are usually interrupted with an hour/hours of windows. It's rare to go from morning until night without feeling some sense of "normalcy". Just wish the windows got longer, I guess.  Thanks for your past encouragement @Erell @mustafa @Superwoman

Your welcome