Erell: struggling with paroxetine

[Longroadhome]

3 hours ago, Erell said:

As some folks ask me about my Prozac bridge, thought I could write an update : 

 

Two weeks ago, I dropped from 0.1mg to 0.06mg Paroxetine. Since two weeks I'm full of symptoms : strong brain fog, some cortisol rushes are back, strong anxiety, feeling electrical, dizziness, body aches, exhaustion, strong DR, doom thinking, some SI,.... with no relief.

Strange to think that two weeks ago I had moments while I felt  "normal" !

 

I'm trying to apply somehow the "Endgame taper" advices to my bridge. Not sure if I'm doing well as I don't understand everything (English understanding + strong brain fog and DR).

Not sure how it can be adapted to a Prozac bridge.

 

I'm gonna wait a couple weeks and see how it goes. Then I'll drop to 0.03mg and see how it goes. (33%, 50%...100% ?)

 

Not really able to participate on SA these days : I focus all my efforts on trying to be able to work

 

 

Someone asked me if I could do an assessment of my Prozac bridge : I think it is still too early to make a definitive assessment of my Paxil to Prozac bridge.

 

Do I regret it because of intense symptoms ? No way ! 

I wasn't doing a fast Paroxetine taper before coming to SA, and even with 3% drops it has always been very hard to taper Paroxetine. So we can assume that maybe I wouldn't have been able to get off Paroxetine without a switch.

I try to focus on my bigger goal : being drugfree. 

 

But my experience may show that a Prozac bridge may have to be done slower than expected, and that even with Fluoxetine added Paroxetine can still be a stubborn and hard to get off.

It is possible that I've been too confident about a "symptom-free bridge" : before bridging, I read many testimonies on French forums, people bridging in two to four weeks without having symptoms !

To be honest, it sometimes feels very unfair to have intense symptoms.

On another hand, since 15 years my CNS function with Paroxetine, so it sounds pretty logical that gettinf off doesn't go smoothly.

 

 I'm really struggling at the moment, and sometimes loose faith on being able to get off Paroxetine and stabilising on Fluoxetine.

But I also know that time does heal everything ❤️

 

Take care everyone ❤️

 

Paxil is very hard to taper from no matter how we do it 

I’m tapering off it and I’m full of symptoms 

even when I was holding for a year I was plagued with symptoms 

but like you I’m determined I will be free from this drug no matter what 

you are strong and as you say you have been on Paxil like me for many years 

yes it has a hold on us after so long but with your determination you will get there 

recovery is inevitable 

keep going 

accept the ups and downs but always keep your goal in mind 

drug free 

Paxil free 

getting on with a happy life 

so worth it ! X

[sunnysideup69]

Hang in there @Erell,

There is nothing fair about this tapering game, for sure. You WILL make it off. Sending hugs from London xxx

[Erell]

Oups, I'm sorry, it wasn't meant to complain ! 

But, your support is greatly appreciate ! ❤

 

As longroadhome said : so worth it ! 💪

[Gridley]

8 hours ago, Erell said:

I'm trying to apply somehow the "Endgame taper" advices to my bridge.

In applying the Endgame Taper, Brassmonkey writes that it is assumed you are doing okay without a lot of symptoms before making those larger percentage drops.  From what I've read in your posts, you're having some difficulties.  It seems to me that a slower taper off the Paxil would be gentler for you.

[Erell]

54 minutes ago, Gridley said:

In applying the Endgame Taper, Brassmonkey writes that it is assumed you are doing okay without a lot of symptoms before making those larger percentage drops.  From what I've read in your posts, you're having some difficulties.  It seems to me that a slower taper off the Paxil would be gentler for you.

 

Thank you for your input Gridley ! ❤

 

Before dropping my dose from 0.1mg to 0.06mg I was feeling almost symptomfree with great moments feeling "normal", that's why I did it.

Symptoms appeared last 2 weeks after the drop to 0.06mg.

 

Another factor is my liquid Paxil will be out of date in August (it is out of stock in France since many months).

If needed I could still make my own liquid with tablets, but switching to tablets could be another factor of destabilisation.

 

I don't know, maybe my understanding of the Prozac bridge is wrong  : from what I've read it seems that you have to quit first molecule relatively quickly, in order to let your CNS stabilise with the new molecule.

I've read many testimonies of people jumping at 2 or 1 mg Paroxetine while Fluoxetine ramps up.

I've started to switch in April.

 

Switching seems to be a complex process

 

I'll see how things go next weeks.

 

Take care ❤

Edited June 22, 2020 by Erell

[Cigale]

Bonjour @Erell - Juste quelque petits mot de dire qu je pense à toi aujourd'hui et j'espére que tu vas bien. Bisous!

[Erell]

On 6/8/2020 at 10:17 AM, Erell said:

- reinstated 0.1mg Paroxetine 2 weeks ago, and after one week had moments while I felt almost symptomfree...! Can't tell how wonderful it was to realise that weird chemical anxiety had gone.

- I still have some chemical anxiety/dizziness, but very low, with some spikes. Actually, it feels like if Fluoxetine is progressively kicking in.

 

Trying to focus on the positive : yes I was feeling pretty good on 0.1mg Paroxetine ! Even forgot WD for hours sometimes !  

 

Since I dropped to 0.06mg (33%) two weeks ago, I'm full of symptoms and high chemical anxiety and cortisul rushes are kicking me. Can't work from home anymore so days are a real challenge.

As Gridley said, it was probably a too large drop. Feeling symptomfree probably gave me too much confidence on my ability to end easily my switch to Prozac.

 

I'm working on accepting the fact that I'll probably have to taper slower Paroxetine, even if I've added Fluoxetine.

I'm gonna wait until I stabilise from my 33% drop and then will probably reduce Paroxetine by 0.01mg instead (0.05, 0.04, ...).

 

As I've read testimonies of people having issues going from liquid to tablets, I'm working on trying to find some extra bottles.

I may have found 2 extra bottles in another region, expiration date could  lead me to October 2020.

(liquid Paxil still out of stock in France / bottles I have will be out of date in August).

 

@Altostrata : I'm being curious : do we have testimonies of people struggling hardly to quit Paroxetine even when tolerating well Fluoxetine ? How did they manage then end of the swtich ?
(didn't find examples at low doses, people often seemed to quit easier once Fluoxetine has ramped up).

 

Wish you all a nice day ❤️

Edited June 24, 2020 by Erell

[Longroadhome]

7 hours ago, Erell said:

 

Trying to focus on the positive : yes I was feeling pretty good on 0.1mg Paroxetine ! Even forgot WD for hours sometimes !  

 

Since I dropped to 0.06mg (33%) two weeks ago, I'm full of symptoms and high chemical anxiety and cortisul rushes are kicking me. Can't work from home anymore so days are a real challenge.

As Gridley said, it was probably a too large drop. Feeling symptomfree probably gave me too much confidence on my ability to end easily my switch to Prozac.

 

I'm working on accepting the fact that I'll probably have to taper slower Paroxetine, even if I've added Fluoxetine.

I'm gonna wait until I stabilise from my 33% drop and then will probably reduce Paroxetine by 0.01mg instead (0.05, 0.04, ...).

 

As I've read testimonies of people having issues going from liquid to tablets, I'm working on trying to find some extra bottles.

I may have found 2 extra bottles in another region, expiration date could  lead me to October 2020.

(liquid Paxil still out of stock in France / bottles I have will be out of date in August).

 

@Altostrata : I'm being curious : do we have testimonies of people struggling hardly to quit Paroxetine even when tolerating well Fluoxetine ? How did they manage then end of the swtich ?
(didn't find examples at low doses, people often seemed to quit easier once Fluoxetine has ramped up).

 

Wish you all a nice day ❤️

Hi Erell

I’ve thought  about your situation. 
I don’t know of many (if any) that are symptom free whatever form they exit from Paxil. 
so if I were you I’d think about Brass Monkeys sliding scale of 2.5% drop every Week for four weeks and holding for 2 then continue the same again until off. 
Maybe you  like me have to sneak Paxil very slowly out of your system . 
Brass Monkey taper is definitely working for me. 
I’m  not symptom free but managing well at the moment . 
so, we are all different and maybe you will not be symptom free until completely off Paxil and “Down the road some” but by sneaking the remainder out Brass Monkey style your symptoms will be manageable . 
Just a thought 💭 

you’re  a strong person You have this it’s just finding your exit point that’s all 

 

[sunnysideup69]

Hello @Erell,

Just dropping by to give you a hug and a hello ❤️

 

[Erell]

Hello dear survivors, 

 

well, I've criticised Paxil for being a stubborn, but it looks like I'm a real stubborn too...

 

Before doing my Paxil to Prozac switch, I've read several testimonies written by people (here or on other websites) who did a relatively easy bridge, almost symptomfree.

And this is what gave me the strength to try this molecule change : I began my switch almost convinced that once Fluoxetine would ramp up, I would quit Paroxetine relatively quickly and without much symptoms.

 

It is not exactly the case (but still glad to be down to 0.06mg), and everytime I told it here, you (Gridley, Altostrata, Longroadhome,..) told me that I'll probably have to quit Paroxetine very slowly.

But I couldn't understand why whereas I had added Fluoxetine in order to substitute. As if 10% rule couldn't apply to my switch situation. 

As if I had forggot all I've learned thanks to SA testimonies. 

And instead of accepting the fact that quitting Paroxetine was still difficult for my CNS even if Fluoxetine was added, my mind was rejecting this idea and I kept on saying "but I'm doing a switch, this is not normal, logical".

 

I believe this lack of acceptance also came from fears for my everyday life : I'm afraid of not being able to keep on working with those intense symptoms, and I need my job to stay independent and protect myself.

Those around me fully accept the idea that I probably need more drugs because I'm ill, so I can't ask them support or financial help if I had to stop working.

 

Of course this rejection attitude didn't help me

And I'm starting to understand that, considering my current symptoms, it may still take many months to quit Paxil.

 

Well, don't know if it's clear, but wanted to apologize for my obstinacy. Let's say it is an obstinacy for life !

Trying to move on the road to acceptance and the grieving process of an easy divorce with Paxil. Felt in love too quickly with a miraculous Fluoxetine saviour

 

My plan now is to wait for stabilisation with 0.06mg Paroxetine, and then do a slower taper of it.

 

Take care ❤️

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Erell

[sunnysideup69]

It's amazing that you're down to 0.06 of paroxetine. Incredible!

[Hanna72]

Sweet Erell. I agree with sunny, it’s amazing how far you have come.💪

I just wanted to tell you that my switch with Prozac was far from symptoms free. At the time of my bridge I had to only rely on my doctor, had not this forum. I had to contact my doctor few times, with horrible symptoms, and I have

mention to you at one time my doctor told me to up my dose of Prozac to 40 mg, witch I did. Paxil is pure poison in my mind. That’s shows how hard my switch was, beside I didn’t do the bridge-switch correctly. One thing  I can tell you is that it WILL get better. You are strong and stubborn, and that will help you to push on through💪
Tell yourself that you refuse to back down, don’t let the symptoms have value in your life. Focus on the positive. And you should be SO proud of your accomplishment. 
You don’t have to prove to anyone that you can be drug free but prove it to yourself. It’s your life, and you are doing this  for you💖
Let’s go💪

[Erell]

Hannah,

Thank you for sharing your experience !

 

7 hours ago, Hanna72 said:

my doctor told me to up my dose of Prozac to 40 mg, witch I did.

I've read people who've been able to switch by taking a higher dose.

I've wondered myself if I should up my dose to 10mg Fluoxetine as I started with 10mg Paroxetine. 

Thing is other testimonies show that more is not always better.

And my CNS is now used to 6mg Fluoxétine since several weeks, I don't want to destabilise it further.

 

I really appreciate your words of support, I don't really know how to express it in English but there is a beautiful light in your words  ❤

 

Thankyou!

[Hanna72]

Yes I went up to 40 mg, because my doctor was ignorant about Paxil wd symptoms.  But with in a week I went back down to 20 mg because the high dose did not help me at all. So you can imagine what that did to my nervous system. 
I agree with you I would not mess with the dosage of Prozac. If I would have found this forum before the switch I would have done it like you👍
You will stabilise, I have no doubt in my mind🙏

 

[Vegalia]

Hi Erell, 

 

Sending you support and kisses

 

Vega. 

[Erell]

Thank you Hanna and Vegalia  ❤

 

Since 9 June (drop from 0.1mg to 0.06mg) my symptoms are getting worse day by day.

 

Symptoms intensity got almost unbearable this week (sheer terror and SI mostly, burning head, restlessness, body aches). 

Didn't feel this intensity since months. Pretty lost. 

 

I feel like I've made mistakes leading me to face a major crash. On another hand, the concept of a crossover to Prozac requires that I drop Paroxetine. 

 

Must confess i updosed to 0.07mg Paroxetine this morning, hoping it might help my CNS.

Having hard time to figure out if it could be a good idea to updose gradually to 0.1mg where I was feeling ok. 

Might need some insight on this one.

 

 

Fingers crossed, I don't forget my goal.

 

Take care ❤

Edited June 27, 2020 by Erell

[sunnysideup69]

Hugs to you @Erell,

Also having a bit of a meltdown today. 

You're right, we just need to keep our eyes fixed on the goal ahead xxx

[Cigale]

Bonjour @Erell - I am sending you hugs and hope today! You are incredible, working through your journey while still supporting me and others. Like @sunnysideup69 said we have to keep our eyes on the goal. Believe we are healing with every moment, every breath. Bisous 

[Longroadhome]

@Erell

 

Hang in there it will get better it always does it’s just that when we’re in the moment it feels like it’s never going to be any different and we panic. It’s natural.   

its a tough call and I know when I feel panicked by my symptoms I can make the wrong decision. 
be careful and maybe see how the increase you have just made goes over the next few days.  
also symptoms can come on intense only to slowly ebb away over a couple of weeks. 
WD is never a straight road it’s bumpy wavy and we get thrown lots of curveballs !!! 
you’re doing great. And remember  you’re on a small amount of AD. Well under half way off ! 
  

 

[Erell]

3 hours ago, Longroadhome said:

 

 

its a tough call and I know when I feel panicked by my symptoms I can make the wrong decision. 

Yes you're right!

I don't know if it is a good decison to updose since my obviously too large drop.

 

Yes for sure WD it's not a straight road  !

 

I'm somehow used to live with symptoms since months, what confuses me is their intensity worsening.

 

I'm really pleased to read you had some nicer times lately !

 

@Altostrata : do you agree on giving me an opinion about an updose from 0.06mg ?

 

I'm trying to find a prescriber in order to get more Paroxetine and end my crossover slower, for now it's not a success.

First doctor I've seen told me that everybody can quit easily ADs with some hypnosis...and the second one didn't want either to prescribe Paroxetine, his advice was to up Fluoxetine to 40mg...we should write a golden book entitled "100 advices tjat won't help you to get drugfree" !

 

 

take care ❤

[Altostrata]

How about increasing fluoxetine slightly instead? To 7mg, perhaps.

[Erell]

Thank you for answering and sharing a view.

 

Indeed I've been quite lost about the best bet I could make in order to end this crossover correctly and carefully.

 

I understand your guess as a crossover continuity : dropping Paroxetine and upping Fluoxetine to compensate.

It makes sense !

 

Have a nice day (ending with great wind here).

 

(On a side note : I've called several doctors last weeks in order to find one that is used to Prozac switch, thinking it would help me to get the prescriptions I need. They all told me they didn't know this Prozac bridge method and had never heard of it.

Don't know if it's a generality in France or if I just got unlucky. Interesting that American doctors seem to be more familiar with this.)

 

[Vegalia]

Hi  Erell, 

 

As you know I have read a lot the French forum end other French documents and it seems me that prozac bridge is not familiar for French doctors. Or they makes 50 % first AD and 50% new AD 2 or 3 weeks and full new AD.

Most of the time it seems that for switch with 2 AD same category (ISRS) switch is direct. 

I don't say that it is a good method but it seem's to be french habits. 

 

My English is bad but I know you can understand.

 

Courage ma belle.

 

Vega

[Erell]

Yes I understand you well

 

I agree, French doctors don't seem to be familiar with Prozac bridge, while Altostrata mentionned the fact that a lot of American doctors seem to use this option.

 

Merci pour ton soutien si précieux  !

[sunnysideup69]

Morning, @Erell,

 

 

Unfortunately, paroxetine is a nasty little turd and you may have to sneak off much slower than you would have liked, but you are still getting there.

Your GP's comments about only needing hypnosis to get off antidepressants are ridiculous. I find it sad that those who are supposed to look after us have so little knowledge.

 

Yesterday in London, the evening was so windy I thought the trees in the back garden were going to come down. 

Anyway, thinking of you. xxx

[Erell]

13 hours ago, sunnysideup69 said:

Unfortunately, paroxetine is a nasty little turd and you may have to sneak off much slower than you would have liked, but you are still getting there.

 

Yes I think I'll have to sneak off much slower than I thought. It's ok, I now accept it.

 

Followed Altostrata suggestion and updosed to 7 mg Fluoxetine this morning, hoping it will help my poor destabilised CNS to compensate the lack of Paroxetine.

 

Anxiety has been slightly better some moments today, less extreme. I've even been able to take a gentle 30 min walk outside ! ❤️ I'll take this for a good sign !

Also struggled with strong doom feelings and some SI surges. It reminds me the intensity symptoms had when I first came to SA.

I think that's why I panic : after months of slow and gradual stabilisation, here I go again.

 

Since the beginning of my bridge, I've made a lot of dose changes/reinstatements so it makes sense. I don't think I've done something wrong, followed the advices and examples.

But I must confess I'm a bit worried about going back to acute for months.

 

I just hope Fluoxetine updose will help with those strong WD sympoms and help to fade intensity a bit.

 

I know there is no quick fix, Fluoxetine will ramp up slowly, so I have to be patient.

 

Take care ❤️

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Erell

[Altostrata]

We never know the exact amount of fluoxetine to substitute in the Prozac switch. Could be a little more will stabilize you.

 

Given its long half-life, it will take at least a week for that increase in fluoxetine to take full effect. You may feel fluctuations for a while.

[Erell]

18 hours ago, Altostrata said:

We never know the exact amount of fluoxetine to substitute in the Prozac switch. Could be a little more will stabilize you.

 

Given its long half-life, it will take at least a week for that increase in fluoxetine to take full effect. You may feel fluctuations for a while.

 

Yes, it is impossible to predict which amount will be sufficient to substitute. We can only make bets

It was quite nice to hope that 5 or 6 mg would be sufficient, with a shorter taper after !

 

But in my case it didn't work, and that's ok. Now I have to hope patiently that 7mg will help with strong neuroemotions and makes me functionnal again.

 

There will be more bets next months while trying to get off Paroxetine and finding the 'best' Fluoxetine amount to do so.

I must confess it scares me.

I'm probably dealing with too much neuroemotions now to think clearly and with confidence. It's been 2.5 months since I started this switch, and I'm probably tired of my bumpy year.

Time only will say what will work.

 

And yes fluctuations is the right current word 

 

But I also have to remember that I posted this only 20 days ago : 

" I'm doing way better :

 - reinstated 0.1mg Paroxetine 2 weeks ago, and after one week had moments while I felt almost symptomfree...! Can't tell how wonderful it was to realise that weird chemical anxiety had gone.

- I still have some chemical anxiety/dizziness, but very low, with some spikes. Actually, it feels like if Fluoxetine is progressively kicking in."

 

Remembering this post helps me to believe that my switch is working, and that I'm just facing an obstacle on the assured and close road to stabilisation

 

 

I'm really grateful for your presence and opinions during this bumpy bridge. I feel my lack of knowledge and experience to take the best decisions during this long crossover, and interprete the process, so it is very valuable to benefit from your experience and dispassionate suggestions. 

Thank you ❤️

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Erell

[Hanna72]

Sorry to hear that you are struggling. 🙏It’s true we are all different and what works for one might not work for another. I know this journey is scary, I was also really afraid when I started my taper in January 2019. 
For what it’s worth in my experience tapering of Prozac was a much gentler ride, I think cause of its half life. You have come along way, and I will pray that you can stabilise soon, at least get some relief. 
My thoughts are with you Erell💖

Stay strong, don’t be hard on yourself, you are doing everything that you can. 

And please have faith in yourself.

I want to tell you that in my darkest moments I use to talk to myself out loud, encouragement words, like : you can do this, you will survive and so on. Be your own best friend🥰

Hugs to you💖

[Longroadhome]

2 hours ago, Erell said:

 

Yes, it is impossible to predict which amount will be sufficient to substitute. We can only make bets

It was quite nice to hope that 5 or 6 mg would be sufficient, with a shorter taper after !

 

But in my case it didn't work, and that's ok. Now I have to hope patiently that 7mg will help with strong neuroemotions and makes me functionnal again.

 

There will be more bets next months while trying to get off Paroxetine and finding the 'best' Fluoxetine amount to do so.

I must confess it scares me.

I'm probably dealing with too much neuroemotions now to think clearly and with confidence. It's been 2.5 months since I started this switch, and I'm probably tired of my bumpy year.

Time only will say what will work.

 

And yes fluctuations is the right current word 

 

But I also have to remember that I posted this only 20 days ago : 

" I'm doing way better :

 - reinstated 0.1mg Paroxetine 2 weeks ago, and after one week had moments while I felt almost symptomfree...! Can't tell how wonderful it was to realise that weird chemical anxiety had gone.

- I still have some chemical anxiety/dizziness, but very low, with some spikes. Actually, it feels like if Fluoxetine is progressively kicking in."

 

Remembering this post helps me to believe that my switch is working, and that I'm just facing an obstacle on the assured and close road to stabilisation

 

 

I'm really grateful for your presence and opinions during this bumpy bridge. I feel my lack of knowledge and experience to take the best decisions during this long crossover, and interprete the process, so it is very valuable to benefit from your experience and dispassionate suggestions. 

Thank you ❤️

 

You chose the only route you could because of Paxil liquid not being available to you. 
Once you have stabilised on the dose required it will be easier to taper from because of it’s longer half life 

hang in there thinking of you 

LRH 
 

[Altostrata]

How are you feeling with that slight increase?

[Erell]

4 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How are you feeling with that slight increase?

 

- Doom feelings and SI surges have faded and are now mild. 

- High anxiety/dread may have faded slightly, hard to tell. Very intense all day.

- Cortisol rushes still strong(night and morning).

 

Waiting for Fluoxetine to ramp up

Edited June 30, 2020 by Erell

[Altostrata]

Good signs.

[Cocopuffz17]

18 hours ago, Erell said:

 

- Doom feelings and SI surges have faded and are now mild. 

- High anxiety/dread may have faded slightly, hard to tell. Very intense all day.

- Cortisol rushes still strong(night and morning).

 

Waiting for Fluoxetine to ramp up

Hang in there ! You got this and will get through this  

[Erell]

12 hours ago, Cocopuffz17 said:

Hang in there ! You got this and will get through this  

Thank you ❤️

 

Really appreciate your support dear folks ❤️

 

After 2 weeks forcing myself, I didn't manage to go to work this morning, because of unmanageable crying spells and inability to focus (yesterday I did only mistakes at work because all my strenght was focused on trying to behave). I can't function or work currently, symptoms are too intense (mostly dread /impending doom feelings / uncontrollable crying spells and SI / strong nauseas/ cortisol rushes/ racing thoughts).

Trying to find a dr that will accept to prescribe some time off.

 

While in crisis, I'm quite obsessed by the idea of finding some hope and reassurance.

And I still feel quite lost about understanding what's happening, what I can reasonably expect next couple of months.

I re-read threads from people who did a Prozac bridge. 

And there are people who managed to  Reading the testimonies, it appears that my mistake may have been to try a too low Fluoxetine amount.

People who did successfull bridges attempted higher equivalencies : for example 10mg Paxil ---> 10mg Fluoxetine.

 

It's only been 4 days since I increased to 7mg, so I have to wait to see if it helps.

 

I'm not complaining or regretting : I did the best I could, making researches and following careful advices.

I'm just hit by the fear of a long PAWS from Paxil, and dealing with so intense dark feelings.

 

I also use a lot of nondrug coping skills : mindfullness, listening to sweet music, relaxation session, talking positive out loud, trying to change the channel by doing acitivities (cleaning, gentle walks, ...).

 

But while falling down in a very dark place, I read a lot your nice words and want to thank you and let you know how much your support is valuable atm ❤️

 

Let's hope for brighter days,

 

One day I will be better and dance ☀️

 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Erell

[sunnysideup69]

Brighter days are coming, @Erell.

I think it's good if you can get some time off, trying to put on a 'face' at work is stressful when symptoms are high.

Sending hugs and support.