Erell: struggling with paroxetine

[Sebas]

7 hours ago, Erell said:

And evening primrose oil : tried it in 2019 to help with menstrual cycle.

Not sure it did something.

Oh you a girlie 😯🙈☺. Is the oil currently beneficial in your experience?

 

Good thing you went to store, people who have autism like my brother in law experience the same but then every day all day. Just keep a low profile.

 

When do you take your magnesium. It might help if you take it just before (afternoon) naptime.

 

Current dayly life routine seems fine.

 

Anxiousness and bowel seem to respond to both fluoxetine (09.00-10.30 increase) and diozepam (7pm-8pm ++). At night system is dealing with both, plus normal bowel mobility is less during night. That could explain the morning peak.

 

Does the diozepam have a noticeable positive effect to you? Cause it might also influence or upset CNS which is already struggling from bridging. 

 

Can you shortly explain what you mean by DR/DP?

 

Wishing you a nice sunday 🦋🍀

 

[Altostrata]

11 hours ago, Erell said:

1pm : sudden exhaustion, can't keep my eyes open. Go to bed, don't manage to nap, my body keeps waking in jolts and anxiety spikes.

 

Is this a consistent pattern?

[Erell]

12 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

Is this a consistent pattern?

No : I think the exhaustion was related with nauseas, like if I was sick. Exhaustion and nauseas are rare.

I never take naps, and usually feel a bit better at the beginning of afternoon :

 

12 hours ago, Erell said:

I often feel better around 1/2/3pm, beginning of afternoon.

And I often feel a "shift" to worse around 5/6pm, end of afternoon.

And I feel better again around 10/11pm.

 

That's why I have issues to know if I'm just dealing with Paxil WD or if I'm also dealing with too much Prozac (peak plasma 6/7 hours after my dose, perhaps ? ).

 

 

Today I felt better from 2pm to 4.30pm. At 4.30pm sudden shift with crazy thoughts/restlessness/urges/shaking/dread...

It's 9pm here and I'm shaking in my bed with fear and crazy urges.

It's hard, really.

 

 

Have a nice day Alto ☀️

Edited April 11, 2021 by Erell

[Altostrata]

Please continue with your daily notes and include the periods when you feel better.

[Mimi79]

Hi @Erell

Even if I am not myself in a good place right now, I send you big hugs! 

I am thinking of you everyday and hope you will see some light soon. 
You are so courageous in your battle through recovery, you are inspiring.

I struggle since only 2 months and can barely cope. 
 

Paxil seems to be a particular beast. I can’t believe I cold turkeyed it 6 years ago (wasn’t aware of the danger at this time). Hopefully, it was not too bad, but it brings me to take remeron to counter the WD symptoms (now I know that!).

 

Maybe this is why I am now so sensitive to drugs.

 

Take care of you!

 

Mimi79

[Erell]

10 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Please continue with your daily notes and include the periods when you feel better.

 

Sunday 11 April

 

6am : wake up with restlessness, painfull anxiety. Try to relax.

7.30am : breakfast + 1 fish oil capsule.

Feeling sick and nauseas like yesterday. Some intrusive thoughts but tolerable. Anxiety mild.

9am : 7mg Fluoxetine. 

will feel the same all morning.

noon : eat lunch 

2pm : nauseas/sickness suddenly disappear. I'm left with  good mood, anxiety stays mild, I feel relatively calm.

take a 30 min walk + do some cleaning then rest.

4.30pm : doing sudokus, feel a "shift" : contracted jaws, internal "urges", anxiety worse.

5.30pm : restless, shaky, feeling like vibrating inside. Take a shower to try to release tension.

6.30pm : crazy thoughts and urges, restless. Hard. 

Try some TRE to see if it helps.

7pm : 1mg Diazepam

7.30pm : eat diner. Hard : crazy thought and impulses, feel like I need to run and scream.

Doom and gloom feelings.

8pm : 1000mg Evening primrose oil.

Spend the evening in my bed, afraid, shaky,  crazy thoughts and feelings.

Feeling like loosing ground.

Wondering what is happening.

Trying to distract with sudokus.

10.30pm : start feeling slightly better, meaning I start to yawn and release some tension.

11.30pm : fall asleep. Lots of weird dreams,slight sleep

6am : wake up suddenly, completely awake, restless legs.

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Erell

[Altostrata]

Do you consistently feel better around 2 p.m.?

[Erell]

6 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Do you consistently feel better around 2 p.m.?

It's not always the case, but I often feel calmer in the beginning of afternoon around 1-2pm.

This calmer period often ends and worsen around 5-6 pm.

 

☀️

Edited April 12, 2021 by Erell

[GiantsWSC]

Hello Erell,

 

My apologies as I haven’t been on here much after my taper but I can share some experiences that helped me during my taper of Paxil after being on it for close to 20 years.

 

Here were the biggest 3 things that helped me:

 

Mindfulness meditation was a powerful tool for me when I went through the waves. There are many books and YouTube videos that help guide you through it but I will have to say it had a huge impact on helping with the feelings of anxiety, brain fog, helplessness, fear, negative thoughts.

 

Getting a lot of sunlight and forcing myself to get exercise was almost as beneficial as the meditation. I found myself not thinking about anything when I was exercising. It felt like I was in the “zone” if you’ve ever heard the term. Basically you’re so focused in a goal that nothing phases you.

 

Music. I listened to a lot of music during my taper, like hours a day. Mostly feel good songs and songs with beats I enjoyed. It was like a drug as it probably helped increase my serotonin naturally.

 

I hope you get better, there is light at the end. 

[Fallensoul]

Erell, I wonder if the Prozac is to stimulated for you?

I'm no doctor, but read that many people find it (too) stimulating.

 

 

 

 

[Erell]

1 hour ago, Fallensoul said:

Erell, I wonder if the Prozac is to stimulated for you?

I'm no doctor, but read that many people find it (too) stimulating.

That's what I'm trying to find out. It's not easy because my issues could be because of too much Prozac, but it could also be because of Paxil WD.

Thank you for your support, I've read on your thread that you were feeling better, I'm glad for you ☺

 

@GiantsWSC : thank you, and congratulations for this well deserved drugfree life ☺

I will be happy to read your Success Story!

I indeed take walks, almost everyday : I agree it is a huge tool ! ☺

Meditation too, and I try to go back to my breath everytime my thoughts go to negative.

Sun and music are a bit more complicated : I don't manage to listen to music this year, it's like it's too much for my brain, don't know how to explain. But I agree, music can be powerfull !

 

@Sebas : hey, thank you for your kind support!

- DR/DP : I use it to try to describe weird feelings : feel like my arms or my legs are not mine, looking at the trees or the sky and feel like a cartoon, issue to recognise myself in the mirror,..

-Well honestly I'm not sure evening primrose oil is helping, but I think it did in 2019. I might stop it at one point but I"m always a bit wary to do changes while things are in chaos.

- Magnesium : as ssuggested here, I put 300mg in a bottle of water and syrup it throughout the day.

- Diazepam  : well, that might have been a mistake. Ive taken it a difficult time to stay safe.

Currently, I'm not sure it does something, I can't notice it. 

I will have to taper it that's sure.

Also a bit wary to change things now as it is chaos and don't know if my body would prefer stability/holding.

But I also wonder if my body would do better without this benzo. 

 

I'm gonna see if my dailynotes provide possible clues to external people and then reassess.

I feel in such a chaos I have issues to see if I might do something to help my body.

Just pretty lost and reading a tons of Success Stories 😉

 

Hope you're doing ok on your side ☀️

 

[Sebas]

14 minutes ago, Erell said:

Well honestly I'm not sure evening primrose oil is helping, but I think it did in 2019. I might stop it at one point but I"m always a bit wary to do changes while things are in chaos.

You can also look at it from an oppositie point of view. While body and mind are in chaos the least things can upset CNS furthermore. 

 

If you dont notice any positive effect than you just might try to go without. With diazepam of course thats another story.

 

I understand its not easy.

[Sebas]

"EPO may interact with some antidepressants, including selective serotonin uptake inhibitors, such as:

• Citalopram (Celexa)
• Escitalopram (Lexapro)
• Fluoxetine (Prozac)
• Paroxetine (Paxil)
• Sertraline (Zoloft)"

 

Source:

http://loyolamedicine.adam.com/content.aspx?productid=107&isarticlelink=false&pid=33&gid=000242

 

Given the information in this link it might enhance bowel issues too. 

 

Of course i'm no doctor but i think its too much alltogether. 

[Erell]

Hello @Sebas

Wow thank you for this. 

I had searched Google and the drug interaction checker before taking Evening primrose oil in 2019 but didn't find anything.

I'm gonna read this with great interest.

Take care ☀️

[ChessieCat]

There is no supporting research for the above.  However I've found this:

 

https://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/evening-primrose,evening-primrose-oil-index.html

 

Note:  search for drug name not Brand name.

 

From the Professional tab:

Interactions between your drugs

Minor

FLUoxetine

evening primrose

Applies to: fluoxetine and Evening Primrose Oil (evening primrose)

Some clinicians have suggested that evening primrose and borage oil, both of which contain the omega-6 fatty acid gamma linolenic acid (GLA), may lower the seizure threshold and increase the risk of seizures during co-administration with other epileptogenic agents. However, data regarding the effect of gamma linolenic acid on seizure threshold are conflicting and limited.

References

1. N. A. Michael Eskin "Borage and evening primrose oil." European Journal of Lipid Science and Technology 110 (2008): 1
2. Therapeutic Research Faculty "Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database. Available from: URL: http://www.naturaldatabase.com." ([1995-2008...]):
3. Miller LG "Herbal medicinals: selected clinical considerations focusing on known or potential drug-herb interactions." Arch Intern Med 158 (1998): 2200-11
4. Asadi-Samani M, Bahmani M, Rafieian-Kopaei M "The chemical composition, botanical characteristic and biological activities of Borago officinalis: a review." Asian Pac J Trop Med 7S1 (2014): S22-8

 

[Erell]

@ChessieCat : thank you.

Indeed, there are very little data and researches about EPO and possible interactions.

 

----------------------------------

@Altostrata

 

Monday 12 April

 

6am : wake up feeling restless, restless legs, shaky. Mindfullness birdsongs, breath.

7am : breakfast + 1 fish oil capsule 

9am : 7mg Fluoxetine. 

Still feeling shaky, vibrating inside, restless, racing thoughts.

10am : take a 30min walk, try to focus on the sun.

Feeling weird : rev up, disconnected, shaky.

Noon : hard lunch. Feeling rev up, shaky, restless. Parents notice that I talk a lot, speed. Vibrating inside.

1/2pm : read a lot of Success Stories. Trying to focus on hope and patience. Feeling "unsafe".

3pm : feeling a bit better, a bit calmer. Do some gentle work in the garden, focus on my babies seedlings and birds.

5pm despite wearing a hat, sunglasses and drinking water, it feels like the sun is too much. Feeling like insolation while It's not very hot here and I"m being careful.

+ my face does some "dark spot" : this is new.

5.30pm : restlessness better than this morning, but now feeling painfull anxiety, like venom boiling through my veins. 

+ weird feeling of restlessness inside my belly.

7pm : 1mg Diazepam. Feeling frightened, unsafe. Some crazy thoughts.

7.30pm: eat diner. Very foggy, disconnected + frightened.

8pm : 1000mg Evening primrose oil. 

Go to bed to relax, sudokus, breath.

Body tension and painfull anxiety.

11pm : Body relax a bit, start to drowse and fall asleep around midnight. 

Surprinsingly, slept well until 6.30am.

Woke up with painfull restless legs.

 

- Do you think there is a possible hypothesis to explain the fact that I made some progress in Oct-Nov-Dec, then stopped and deteriorate since January ?

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Erell

[ChessieCat]

5 minutes ago, Erell said:

Indeed, there are very little data and researches about EPO and possible interactions.

 

You are welcome.

 

It's like anything we need to listen to our bodies and be our own detective.  In the last 18 months I've discovered that I can eat ordinary tomatoes 4 days in a row with no issue, but if I eat Roma / egg tomatoes for 4 days I get hives.  It was only from observing that I made the connection.

[Sebas]

You might also want to look into possible interaction between EPO and diazepam given your system is already struggling. 👇🍀

I've experienced several things that in theory shouldnt have a bad connection but in fact they did, at least during withdrawal. Like Chessie 🍅 said, be your own detective.

[Erell]

@ChessieCat and @Sebas : you're right, I need to be my own detective. Not easy while being so restless, afraid of making bad decisions.

I was so focused on my issues with my bridge, I never thought about checking diazepam and EPO. 

And it's hard to find serious researches, or to know how rigorous the studies are, especially in a second langage.

Might take only 500mg for a few days and see how it goes.

 

Again, thank you ☀️

Edited April 13, 2021 by Erell

[mustafa]

Hello @Erell, how are u? 

Erell i know that u have supplements but are u sure that they help!? I saw your last post about EPO and how it can be making your brain more stressed. I dont know but i think u have to stop all supplements gradually to see if there is a better or worse difference. What do u think about that?

[getofflex]

below quoted by Sebas 
 

So it can make you taller?  According to item 5. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by getofflex
Quoted previous text

[Altostrata]

13 hours ago, Erell said:

Do you think there is a possible hypothesis to explain the fact that I made some progress in Oct-Nov-Dec, then stopped and deteriorate since January ?

 

I don't know. What happened in late December or early January?

[Erell]

16 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

I don't know. What happened in late December or early January?

Well that's what I wonder since then.

No change in meds, no new meds, same supplements, no alcohol, no alcohol in food, same syringes, same routine, no big news...

I think I've checked everything in an attempt to find a logical reason for the disappearance of my brief windows and the return of high intensity of old symptoms. 

Guess we can't find logic with a destabilised CNS.

 

I've made several guesses, wondering if it's the mysterious "8-10-12month waves" people sometimes talk about, or if my body just don't want Prozac.

In February I started a low histamine diet to see if it would help, but I don't think it's my case.

 

I'm just exhausted, and afraid to feel worse one year after my bridge. 

Tempted to start a slow taper of Prozac.

 

 

Is there something that come out of my notes for external people ? 

If not, I'll have to give you a break and stop them.

 

Tuesday 13 April

6.30am wake up with painfull restless legs and painfull anxiety.

7.30am: breakfast +1 fish oil capsule

9am : 7mg Fluoxetine.  Painfull anxiety/tension.

10am : 30min walk in nature. Feeling dizzy/DR/like going crazy.

11am : crazy thoughts, urges to escape.

noon : Eat lunch. Feel unsafe, afraid, crazy thoughts.

2pm : an old friend call. Hard to talk, feeling disconnected, DR, trouble to find my words. +hard to talk with someone who thinks you should take meds. Feeling exhausted about having to protect myself from psychiatry.

3pm : don't want to give up, feel the need to do efforts + feel a bit calmer. Take my car to drive a bit. Feeling foggy, disoriented. I "fake it" but feel like an alien in my car.

4pm go in my garden to watch my babies seedlings, listen to birdsongs.

Still feel DR/highly disconnected + crazy thoughts.

Then watch funny videos to distract.

7pm : 1mg Diazepam. 

7.30pm  : eat diner.

8pm : go to bed to relax. Painfull anxiety, like acid boiling through my veins. Feeling hypervigilant and shaky. 

+ tickles in throat.

Spend the evening trying to relax.

Fall asleep around midnight, slightanxious sleep.

Woke up anxious and restless around 6.30am.

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Erell

[Sebas]

Being afraid to make choices is also part of anxiety caused by withdrawal. That's why you need good choices.  In comparisson with a paxil to fluoxetine bridge, coming down on EPO will be relatively harmless. You'll manage. Keep making daily notes. CNS is asking for more rest so this could be a good thing. I stopped taking magnesium and fish oil for a while when CNS was too upset. Have faith 🍀🦋

 

Next time tell your friend you'll call back when four feeling more at ease. You don't need any more (internal) stress at the moment. Just take care of yourself first.

 

IF EPO currently has a bad effect on your WD, then everytime you take it CNS gets upset again and things get worse when feeling a little better is your short term goal.

[Hanna72]

Erell, I have been checking in on your thread, just hoping that a solution will be found for you🙏
Your description of the symptoms are identical with what I went through. And remember I was all of a sudden hit with this after months with out the drugs. I believe it’s Paxil withdrawals, and also when our bodies are in constant high alert and anxiety it’s very difficult to balance it. 
Like Sebas said, making a decision when we are controlled by anxiety is very scary. Makes everything harder. In my case when I had made a decision to go back on fluoxetine I was terrified, even if I started with a very low dose, and unfortunately had to increase it up. 
I told myself that I wanted to stabilise, so I could function and live, and I could always taper slowly when I would be ready. 
Whether in your case you should increase or decrease, I don’t know, but I think which way you go you might try it in a small amount, to see if it will help you. Making that decision is hard I know, but something has to be done for your well being. 
It’s a very good sign you are able to sleep it’s crucial in these circumstances. 
You have so many good people on here that care for your well being and are giving you lots of support and information, we all want to see you get better.

Know this Erell it will get better, you are not going to feel like this for ever. 
 

“Hard times don’t create heroes. It is during hard times,

when the ‘hero’ with in us is revealed.”

You already are my inspiration ❤️
 

[Fallensoul]

I allmost think it's the Prozac.

Depite it's long half life, it is one of the most stimulating Ssri's. You don't want that in a destabelised nervous system I think:

 

[quote]Fluoxetine, considered one of the most stimulating SSRIs, is associated with increased awakenings and impaired sleep continuity[/quote]

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/selective-serotonin-reuptake-inhibitors

 

But I'm no doctor, and it's just a thought by me.

 

 

[Erell]

Thank you ❤

Your words mean more than I can say.

 

I agree, my only wish and aim is to stabilise and being able to live a bit more. Just being able to drive to the grocery store, or read a book would be amazing.

Honestly, I would have increased Fluoxetine long ago if I hadn't have such a strong reaction to my updose in August 2020, and it was only a 0.5mg updose.

I ended with restlessness and unability to sit still, and terrible thoughts/impulses that are still with me.

So it seems that I'm in Paxil WD, but my body doesn't accept more Prozac.

 

Thats why I've done "nothing " since 8 months, keeping everything steady and practicing selfcare tools and hoping I could regain functionnality as time passes.

 

People seem to believe that I'm courageous, but honestly I'm not. 

I'm at the end of my rope.

I just keep going hoping the next day Will be easier. 

 

 

I'm very thankful for the incredible support of people h3re and can't thank enough ❤

Edited April 14, 2021 by Erell

[Fallensoul]

I know I'm not in a position to give advises, but maybe you should try a (micro)taper and see if it's get better? 
I dont know what other mods are thinking about this, but I just want to share it.

[Hanna72]

Erell that might be worth trying to go under 7 mg, very small cut, and see if it helps. Finding the sweet spot is trial and error.

I would ask alto if that’s something you should give a try.

[Subzero42]

Erell, maybe you should consider switching back to Paxil, of course I’m not anything near an expert although I am a proof that updose of a drug can work even after a very long time.

 

Take care

[Altostrata]

Since you feel so poorly after taking fluoxetine in the morning, my guess is the amount is too strong for you. You might reduce by 0.25mg, see what happens.

 

 

[getofflex]

@Erell I am right there with you now.  I went into a wave at 1:00 AM this morning when I woke up with my feet feeling like they were on fire.  Very strange, this ADWD.  

[sunnysideup69]

Hey @Erell,

I just wanted to catch up on your thread and say hello and offer you a hug.

I'm sorry you're suffering so badly. I know very well how awful it is to feel you're making progress and then to have slipped backwards. Unfortunately, it's all part of the process. 

I also think that January to March are tough as we're in winter, our bodies have had enough of the dark. I believe this affects our mood anyway, so it can surely make WD worse. 

Also, it could simply be a wave. A long one, sorry to say. All part of healing from that Paxil devil. Unfortunately, it's a horrid drug to come off, but you've done it! And now your body is trying to restabilise.

It has taken me a LONG time to stabilise, but I have, and you will, too. I have no doubt about that.

You are doing everything you can and time will heal you. I know for myself that when I'm feeling crappy, I feel I should be doing X, y and z, making this change and that, to get better.....but actually, what helps most is just surrendering to how things are and letting time pass.

 

Sending you masses of love and hugs from London xxxxx

[Erell]

Hello dear folks,

 

I'm sorry for not answering earlier to your suggestions. 

I received many different advices and it was a bit triggering for my panicky mind.

No blame at all : I'm the one who asked for answers, and you are all an amazing bunch of generous people who are trying to help, and I can't thank you enough for your bright support ❤

 

I'm thinking carefully about the different options people suggested.

Ultimately, it has to be my decision and I have to take the responsability for it, I know that.

I just have lost trust in my instinct and have issues to know which is my inner voice and which is just fear voice. 

 

I'm also having some issues with coping skills.

I've read a lot about CBT and Claires Weekes this year. But I still don't know how to apply what I learn.

- CBT is about Exposure therapy. I find it interesting as anxiety and intrusive thoughts are big symptoms in my case.

In the meantime, I find that Exposure is often too harsh in WD : for example I've developed a strong agoraphobia and I Expose myself regurlaly to try to teach my brain. But with sensory overload, it's not just about anxiety : sounds, light, mouvements are often too much and I never know when Exposure is a good idea and when it's too much for someone in WD.

- Ultimately, Claire Weekes teach us Acceptance, float. I also often think about "capitulation, surrender " that Brassmonkey often talks about.

I'm learning and trying to "float" through symptoms. I think I manage to do it better with DR/DP, and sometimes with fear.

But I don't manage to apply it to the harm intrusive thoughts that appeared this year.

I don't feel like I can surrender to these thoughts, so I must confess that I'm mostly in fight/distraction/avoidance strategies with this symptom.

And honestly I don't know how to stop the fight/flight answer to these thoughts, as Exposure feel too much and I don't want to be a danger for people.

Perhaps this particular symptom is one "teacher" that Shep talks about, but I've not managed yet to learn from it.

 

 

 

Anyway, I just wanted to thank you all and wish you a sweet and smooth day ☀️

[getofflex]

Erell, I too distract myself from dark and intrusive thoughts.  I think that is a good thing, it's changing the channel. Please hang in there.  It's very difficult, I know.  

[SeekingMeaning]

I agree that exposure therapy is too harsh for some of us.  I've never found any appeal in CBT.  ACT is the closest to CBT I can get.  But I also experience sensory overwhelm and I don't believe, certainly for myself, that it is good to push through that to excess.  I have some activities I will push on, for instance I try to ensure I turn up for the daily dog walk with my husband and two dogs.  That is safe, local, and though challenging, it's generally survivable.  Having made that my 'thing' I do not push myself to go to a shop.  That's just too much and thankfully my husband is willing to go for food and all else I do without unless I can get it online.  I don't feel bad about that these days though it has taken time to be at peace with this being me and it's ok to be me.

I am an old hand with dark intrusive thoughts.  Some of the tips I can share though, are applicable to my 'native' dark thoughts, the ones I have had troubling me for years.  When I was in WD hell a few weeks ago none of the strategies could rescue me so I appreciate how hard it is.

 

For self-harm imagery I would make it my practice to massage gentle lotions into the area of my body that the harm was ideated towards.

 

For harm to others, it helped me not to banish it with fearful reaction.  I tried to see it for what it is, the product of a person in extreme distress, pushed beyond their tolerance and wanting to lash out.  Similar to the self-harm repair idea it can sometimes help to deliberately turn towards opposite thoughts, images of doing kindness even if imagined rather than real actions.

 

For intrusive 'visions' I have of scenes of cruelty I have seen, on TV, heard about, whatever, that tend to replay to me almost out of the blue, I have mentally collected stories that tell the opposite picture, stories of people who have been kind and generous beyond all expectation.  Mother Theresa type stories.  Sometimes it can help to physically get up and move to a different seating place while I'm doing this, as a conscious marker for choosing a different point of view.

I hope something in that can reassure, support you.  I continue to wish for your healing. x