sunnysideup69: what can I do to stabilise on venlafaxine

[Cigale]

I would like the link also @sunnysideup69, thank you for doing this. And I am hanging in there at the moment, trying to figure out if the ibuprofen I took for a headache is ramping up my anxiety, sigh. Hugs to you!

[sunnysideup69]

On 7/2/2020 at 12:01 PM, sunnysideup69 said:

Note to self; crappy diet still affects me. Had sugary stuff two days running at my parents' home and having a kind of exhaustion wave now. No other symptoms, just really tired. Took about 48 hours to kick in, which is normal after a sugary binge. Not really that bad, but it happens every time.

Yep. Started with a bit of exhaustion two days later (2nd July) and then by the weekend ( Sunday) was experiencing uptick in symptoms. So, had sugar, quite a lot, at parents' and then takeaways twice during the week after. Lots of wheat involved.

Body really does not like.

It sometimes really bugs me that I can't just indulge, but for the sake of stability, I won't. Mind you, I don't seem to be able to indulge in moderation. Maybe some sugar once, would have been ok, but I went for it. Ugh. Need to learn some moderation.

[mstimc]

3 hours ago, sunnysideup69 said:

It sometimes really bugs me that I can't just indulge, but for the sake of stability, I won't. Mind you, I don't seem to be able to indulge in moderation. Maybe some sugar once, would have been ok, but I went for it. Ugh. Need to learn some moderation.

 

This is so true!  I used to love mixing peanut butter and corn syrup on a piece of bread.  I stopped for several years but a while ago  I got the urge and made myself some.  The sugar/carb rush made me dizzy and my anxiety went way up.  That experience taught me I need to moderate no matter what I eat.  

[sunnysideup69]

26 minutes ago, Cigale said:

I am glad you like the spreadsheet, but I can't take any credit for it at all. SA member Jozeff made the downloadable version from this online calculator - which is also pretty cool. I am going to use this extra fancy version that member @Iowan created because it includes both mgai (active ingredient) and mgpw (pill weight). I need mgpw because I am going with crushed tablets vs liquid. I am forever incredibly thankful for these resources from this smart and generous community.

 

And to help you with a possible 10% cut and hold for 4 weeks total, I updated the jozeff spreadsheet. All I did to update is change the row3: percentage per week to 10, row4: weeks taper to 1, and row5: weeks hold to 3 (to get 4 weeks hold). So if you decided you wanted to hold longer than 4 weeks, you would just add weeks to row5. When you are ready to start, you just need to change the starting date in row12. Hope this helps!

Sunny_Taperspreadsheet-10pct.xls 93.5 kB · 1 download

 

Thanks so much, am sure this will help me massively in the future xxx

[sunnysideup69]

I was sent this by Baylissa Frederick of Bloom in Wellness. I asked her about psychotherapy and what is recommended for those of us in psychiatric drug withdrawal.

I was asking in the light of the fact that here, in the UK, there are so many therapists who don't have a clue about those of us suffering from psychiatric drug destabilisation and who go marching ahead with process work (ie deep psychological digging) which can be destabilising in itself.I'm not saying that's NEVER ok in withdrawal, but needs to be limited to times when we are relatively stable. When in waves, we need a more grounding, here and now approach.

 

This document is really good and am going to be sharing it with my therapist as I know she also doesn't quite get it. Some of it is about the drugs themselves and what they do; the serotonin deficiency theory is debunked and some of it is recommendations for therapists. Baylissa herself has contributed, along with the likes of Dr Joanna Moncrieff ( anti prescribing UK psychiatrist.) 

 

https://prescribeddrug.info

[sunnysideup69]

On 7/5/2020 at 5:36 AM, Longroadhome said:

 

Posting this as a reminder to self. Practice practice practice.

Changed the channel yesterday and felt much better- in a wave at the mo but still went out and had lunch at a friend's place, made me feel a lot better ( although also a bit over stimulated.)

[Dejavu]

Hi Sunny! I've been checked out for a while. How are you feeling these days?

[sunnysideup69]

Hey @Dejavu, good to hear from you! I was just up and reading your post and about to respond 😊

Well, am nearly eleven months into holding after swapping to Venlafaxine. Still got withdrawals from Citalopram / possibly side effects from Venlafaxine / who knows really. Let's just call it, destabilisation. I suspect a lot of it is WD from the Cit.

Basically having windows and waves. Waves not TOO bad these days but I'd still like them to be a bit milder before I begin a taper. In a bit of a wave at the moment, not as bad as the bad old days, but still enough for me to notice it.

Unfortunately, also had quite a tough time as my two siblings died this year, which caused more waves. Plus lockdown and all the virus stress.

Jeez, this is a long process, isn't it? BUT, I do think I'm healing, very very slowly.

Do you remember Rachel, ie Breathofair? We are in text contact and she is tapering benzos and doing ok, also in a wave at the mo. 

Really good to hear from you although I wish you were not in a wave. Gonna pop over to your thread xxx

[Dejavu]

I'm so glad you're coming along, but sorry you're also in a wave at the moment. It took me about ten months to begin to stabilize, and then I waited 2 more before beginning my taper. I'm down to 20mg from 26.25. It is very slow going. But this is my first real wave since last December, so I guess I can't really complain.

 

I'm so sorry for your losses, Sunny. The stress and heartbreak really does make recovery that much harder. I wish you comfort and peace. I know how hard it is.

 

And yes, the COVID situation is quite stressful as well. I'm in the US, and I'm just brokenhearted at what my country has become, even before the pandemic, but certainly even more now. We have an election looming in November, and the stakes are higher than they've ever been. It's a wonder any of us over here are sane. 

 

I'm so glad to hear that Rachel is coming along fairly well. That poor baby was in a world of pain back in the day.

 

Good to catch up!

[sunnysideup69]

Morning all, this question is open for anyone to chip in, but wondered also if you'd take a look, @Gridley.

 

The past week I've struggled a bit with restlessness/ agitation/ some intrusive thoughts. Seems to start up between 7am and 8am, around the time I take my medication. And have also been feeling kind of tearful for no apparent reason. So, all in all, not feeling great for the whole week, as the feeling has been persisting throughout the day.

However, from late afternoon around 6pm, I generally feel better and am more relaxed in the evening.

I think this is the most consistently bad week I've had since beginning of June.

Because of the agitation around/just after taking meds at 7am, I was wondering if it's ' just a wave' or whether the Venlafaxine was too activating. 

 

The thing is, if it was the Venlafaxine, wouldn't I experience this agitation consistently, every day, after taking it? (I don't. I had a lovely ten days of window at the end of June, the longest window I've had since this whole escapade started, where there was no morning agitation. It's definitely not there all the time.)

I went home to see parents on 28th/29th June, ate quite a lot of sugary stuff in the space of 24 hours, which my body is not accustomed to, then the following week had take aways twice. Both involving wheat, which I also try to limit. After the sugary binge, it took about 48 hours but I started to feel exhausted but still mood ok. Then from last Sunday, a whole week after the sugar and wheat fiesta, wave started to creep in.I guess I could have provoked a wave by having more of the foods which are not usually on my list. I've also been limiting my calories because I was starting to put on some pounds from being more inactive....Im doing it properly ie having the recommended calories for someone my height and current weight, with a view to shaving off two pounds. Wondering if this could have somehow started a wave. My lower colon has been kind of sore in this current wave and digestion very gurgly.

 

It's kind of complicated when you've swapped meds, isn't it? Hard to know what's still WD and what's side effects, although surely side effects would be more consistent? 

Thank you 😊

PS My sleep has been better for about a couple of weeks now. Have this weird thing where I seem to have better sleep, more symptomatic in the day; worse sleep, less symptomatic in the day. My sleep goes through waves of healing. Still waking around 4am with crazy dreams, but able to go back to sleep until 5 (I'm in bed by 930pm/945pm.

I'm eleven months into the Venlafaxine but not ready to taper yet. Is it ok to hold this long?

[Longroadhome]

Morning Sunny 

It does sound like a wave doesn’t it

Sometimes we look for things to blame but it could be that it would have happened anyway so I wouldn’t beat yourself up wondering what you have done to cause it . 
I bet you find when it passes more healing will have taken place. That seems to be how it works! 
Hold on keep going you’re doing great you really are 
👍😊

[Erell]

2 hours ago, sunnysideup69 said:

I'm eleven months into the Venlafaxine but not ready to taper yet. Is it ok to hold this long?

I don't see why it would be a problem to hold for a long time.

We know that best is to wait to Feel stable before tappering, so if you need more time before feeling ready, well, let's wait more

 

I agree with Longroadhome : it does sound  like a wave.

It's actually amazing how much WD lead us to think that something is wrong, that there must be something wrong.

 

Dear Sunny, I  know how hard it can be to see the big picture, but honestly you've been through a lot these past months. 

 

As always, we know that this wave will pass too 💪☺

 

Hang on dear ☀️

 

[Cigale]

Hello @sunnysideup69 - I am so, so sorry to hear you are in a wave. I am with you this week in that deep, dark ocean and am trying to throw you a big pink inner tube to help you float through to the sandy beach. I too have been searching for reasons for the deep dive (lexapro, ibuprofen, me not trying hard enough). But since I don't think we could ever know the source of this random suffering, it is good to listen to LRH and just trust that healing is happening.

 

3 hours ago, sunnysideup69 said:

Have this weird thing where I seem to have better sleep, more symptomatic in the day; worse sleep, less symptomatic in the day.

 

And this, I have this too. The better my sleep, the harder my days! Just have to take this one day at a time.

 

Take care my friend!

[sunnysideup69]

@Longroadhome, @Erell, @Gridley, @Cigale,

Thank you all. Was really agitated this morning. @Gridley, it's ok, kind of answered my own question to you now. Pretty sure this is another wave. I've just had a wonky week and am a bit exasperated- I get so impatient in the waves at times. I want to be tapering and off; but have to accept this game is about patience.

 

Actually since typing that last post this morning, I got myself up and out and went for a 6k walk....to a local farmhouse project, they have a plant sale every Saturday morning and I bought two houseplants and chatted to a few people, including a local bee keeper. Going to go to a bee keeping workshop next weekend  And suddenly, after several days of agitated mornings, I feel a bit better. Hopefully nasty wave is going away. I have that feeling as if something has switched back on in my head again. It's sooooo weird and impossible to describe to anyone not in WD.

 

I think also at the moment the waves are a bit circumstantial: living alone, craving a bit of distraction. I went to a friend's for lunch yesterday.It was good to sit with someone, although she is quite loud and I was exhausted after a few hours there and when I got home, my ears were ringing.I'm thinking about your post about equilibrium, Erell.....I have to get the balance between solitude and company. We need other people for regulation of our nervous systems....but we have to choose wisely  

 

I'm just so grateful I don't have to explain myself to anyone here. It's such a relief that some people on the planet 'get it.'

 

[Gridley]

@sunnysideup69

 

Like you, I think it is a wave and there is no telling what causes them.  I don't know about the food and whether it contributed but like they say on Beyond Meds, everything matters.

 

It's great that you got out and bought some plants and met with a friend.

As Erell said, 11 months isn't too long to hold if that's what you need.  You want to be stable before beginning a taper, and I know you want to start but as you, patience is essential in this game.  You've gone through a lot this year. There is no rush for anything.

 

 

 

[sunnysideup69]

Update for week beginning Sunday July 5th 2020

 

Well, the past week was a wave. I got through it, though 😊 It's the worst week I've had since around the end of May, wasn't too severe, just for my records here were the main symptoms.

 

Characterisedby intrusive depressive thoughts ( like I've been taken over by a different entity, it is so weird.)

Mental agitation and tearfulness, preoccupied with self and low mood.

Kept obsessively checking in with myself and how I am feeling....honestly, really felt like my brain had glitches and was running the same piece of programming over and over again.

Felt withdrawn and a bit panicky about summer hols, 'how am I going to fill them?' etc. 'I can't cope on my own.'

No desire to do anything that usually brings me joy.

 

In the wave, I doubted whether I have actually made any progress at all in healing over the last year and felt like I will be stuck like this forever.

Physically, most of those days I woke up with body tics and jerks and a feeling of tension in my system.

 

 

However, pretty much by early evening every day, the mood lifted and I felt alright again. So weird!

 

Made myself go to a friend's house on Friday afternoon for lunch and it distracted me from my strange CNS. I felt so buzzed when I got home, like I had taken stimulants.( Which of course, I have ie Venlafaxine.) And she's quite a loud talker, my ears were ringing! 

Saturday morning started with agitation and I made myself go to a plant sale 3kms away, which was a real tonic. Walking around the plants and the raised beds were lovely, bought some more houseplants, talked to a local beekeeper and tried some pollen...odd taste and apparently good for allergies.

I left in a really good mood and the rest of the day was pretty much a window. Forgot about WD, watched 'Medicating Normal' screening.

 

(Also did some yin yoga and had a really good cry on Thursday evening.)

 

Today, have woken up in a good mood. Looking forward to seeing a friend today.

 

🤦🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️ Ain't WD strange?

[mstimc]

Sunny, I think your latest post is very helpful for people struggling through a wave.  As devastating as they may seem when we're in them, there is an end, and very often they help us see just how much progress we've made since starting the WD journey.  Thank you! 

[Cigale]

Yeah @sunnysideup69! Sweet to hear you’re looking through a bright window! Definitely a good start to the week.

 

Would love to hear what you thought of « Medicating Normal ». Bisous!

[sunnysideup69]

Definitely @Cigale! Feeling a lot better. How are you?

Well, Medicating Normal was such an interesting, educational film.

Had some well known commentators in such as Robert Whitaker ( Anatomy of an Epidemic, a must-read), and Dr Kelly Brogan, a non-prescribing, Kundalini yoga practising psychiatrist. She's written Own Yourself, which I'm about to read, and another book, whose title at the moment eludes me (gaps in memory)...but it's very, very good and I read it during my too fast taper in 2017. I may have been tapering too fast at the time but at least I was gathering resources for what lay ahead 😉

 

The film documented the lives of a few people who had fallen into the psychiatric rabbit hole of being prescribed a drug, suffering iatrogenic damage, the damage being labelled as a 'disorder' rather than being seen for what it was, the patients then being prescribed more drugs to mitigate the damage....and so forth. 

It was about the pathologising of understandable adaptive states such as grief and stress and trauma. 

The people's stories were moving and the outcomes entirely predictable.....or rather, predictable for those of us who have also been down that rabbit hole of psychiatric diagnoses. 

One woman, whom I believe had been left on Ativan for several years, wore a hidden camera and went back to confront her original prescriber about why he hadn't warned her about the potential difficulty of coming off her drug. The amount of gaslighting that goes on, even now in psychiatry, is ridiculous.

It's definitely a film to watch when it's on more general release. There was a follow up question and answer panel, which I'm going to link to....

 

 

[Cigale]

Wow! Thank you @sunnysideup69 for taking the time to share your insights. I really appreciate and hope to watch the film when I am a bit more stable. I am doing incrementally better today and am currently enjoying Eckhart Tolle videos and books. I really connect with his ideas and love that he has a sense of humor about it all.

 

Healing hugs to you!

[mstimc]

46 minutes ago, Cigale said:

Wow! Thank you @sunnysideup69 for taking the time to share your insights. I really appreciate and hope to watch the film when I am a bit more stable. I am doing incrementally better today and am currently enjoying Eckhart Tolle videos and books. I really connect with his ideas and love that he has a sense of humor about it all.

 

Healing hugs to you!

Understanding what we go through while taking AD's, and especially when we're trying wean off of them, is tremendously important.  Its reassuring to know others have experienced what we have, and it helps us form our own coping strategies.

[sunnysideup69]

Wow, note about antidepressants/ weight gain.

In 2017, when I had tapered all the way down to 2.5mg Citalopram, my weight dropped right back to 8 stone. ( I'm really small, 5 feet and an inch tall. So that is ok for my height.)

Currently around 8 stone seven pounds. Pretty much still eating/ exercising as much. The weight just seems to creep on around the middle, on antidepressants.....can anyone relate?

Have never been someone who loses weight on them.

 

[sunnysideup69]

Hello dear friends and survivors. Just dropping quickly by to say, I'm 8 and a half days into a window. Feeling pretty good and normal, apart from wonky sleep sometimes and some fatigue.

 

Am off enjoying feeling good at the moment, gotta savour it whilst I can, will drop in properly in the week to catch up.

 

Sending you all love and hugs xxx

[mstimc]

2 minutes ago, sunnysideup69 said:

Hello dear friends and survivors. Just dropping quickly by to say, I'm 8 and a half days into a window. Feeling pretty good and normal, apart from wonky sleep sometimes and some fatigue.

 

Am off enjoying feeling good at the moment, gotta savour it whilst I can, will drop in properly in the week to catch up.

 

Sending you all love and hugs xxx

great news, Sunny!  Positive thoughts coming your way from steamy Portugal!

[Longroadhome]

54 minutes ago, sunnysideup69 said:

Hello dear friends and survivors. Just dropping quickly by to say, I'm 8 and a half days into a window. Feeling pretty good and normal, apart from wonky sleep sometimes and some fatigue.

 

Am off enjoying feeling good at the moment, gotta savour it whilst I can, will drop in properly in the week to catch up.

 

Sending you all love and hugs xxx

Great news go enjoy 😉 

[Dejavu]

@sunnysideup69, I'm thrilled for you. You're stabilizing! Enjoy!

[Malbec37]

1 hour ago, sunnysideup69 said:

Hello dear friends and survivors. Just dropping quickly by to say, I'm 8 and a half days into a window. Feeling pretty good and normal, apart from wonky sleep sometimes and some fatigue.

 

Am off enjoying feeling good at the moment, gotta savour it whilst I can, will drop in properly in the week to catch up.

 

Sending you all love and hugs xxx

 

Great news Sunny a long window how wonderful!! Enjoy it fully 

 

Malbec x 

[Tom37]

Good work....enjoy the feeling of feeling good!

[sunnysideup69]

Thank you @Tom37, @Malbec37, @Dejavu, @Longroadhome, @mstimc,

Appreciate your kind words. 

 

❤️ Update for week commencing Sunday 12th July ❤️

 

Well, it was pretty much all a window. I realise now that the sign of a window is that I'm just getting on with things and not giving a thought to WD. My mind is occupied and focussed on living. NB A window doesn't mean feeling happy all the time - for me it means, yeah, generally feeling alright, sometimes happy, sometimes sad, bored, amused....nothing is overblown, though, and I'm actually able to respond to life in a calm way.

 

Still pretty fatigued some days, but this could be a combination of WD, bereavements back in April and processing those and general hormones. I'm 4 years post menopause and I know it can take quite a while for those to settle down. I'm missing my estrogen, I guess. 

 

Another sign of normality is not minding being alone at all, not making up disaster stories in my head about it. I've NEVER minded living alone until WD hit me. THis week, have just been able to sit comfortably in my own company, sometimes in boredom, sometimes in engagement with things. Just...normal person experiencing normal emotions, nothing blown out of proportion.

 

I keep saying 'normal', but I'm not sure what that actually is .....let's just say instead, I feel relatively well self-regulated, not freaked out easily.

However, I also know my nervous system is still fragile, so am not making too many demands upon it.

 

School holidays begin for me today.(Not that I've been in school.) Going to continue to get lots of rest. Got two weekend trips to see parents factored in, one of which is next weekend. One weekend of catsitting - that will be a bit of a tester, when I went catsitting at Christmas, I was initially quite freaked out at being in a different space.

 

This past weekend I was so tired, I let myself stay in bed all day Saturday. I kind of felt weird doing it, as the only time I've spent the day in bed over the last year was in a big wave. But this time was through choice, through kindness in fact. It did me good.

 

Fingers crossed this window will continue. Praying for us all ❤️

[Cigale]

1 hour ago, sunnysideup69 said:

Another sign of normality is not minding being alone at all, not making up disaster stories in my head about it. I've NEVER minded living alone until WD hit me. THis week, have just been able to sit comfortably in my own company, sometimes in boredom, sometimes in engagement with things. Just...normal person experiencing normal emotions, nothing blown out of proportion.

 

Thank you @sunnysideup69 for your wonderful update. I particularly appreciate you sharing this sort of during WD vs window comparison. It is so encouraging to hear this since there are so many things right now that I dread, but had never given a thought to before. 

 

May your window stay wide open and filled with healing light! Hugs!

 

[sunnysideup69]

Thanks @Cigale,

Hope you're having a good break away from the computer screen xxx

[sunnysideup69]

Aaaaaand the window closed again.

Yesterday was more symptomatic, this morning also not feeling great...tends to be same symptoms these days, nothing particularly new. A bit miserable, lack of pleasure, extra fatigued, headachey, really heavy sleep (bizarrely I seem to sleep a lot better when my mood is worse), gurgly 'off' digestion, nervousness. 

 

Had some sugary stuff on Sunday and Monday- an ice cream each day, was celebrating the end of term.Also have been quite glutinous. Back on the wagon again for me.Not even sure that was the trigger- probably didn't help, but it's probably also 'just' healing. Still got quite a lot done yesterday, even though I was feeling a bit pants for some of the day.One feature of a wave for me is this strange sensation of not quite knowing what to do with myself, nothing appeals, don't want to rest, don't want to do anything either. Computer is jammed.

 

 

 I seem to spend about two thirds of a month feeling okay to good, these last three months. And around a third of it feeling not great, a bit more wave like. Not all in one big chunk like that, but kind of in strings of windows and shorter waves. My windows are definitely longer than the waves these days, but there's still a bit of cycling within the month. On the wavey days, there is still the tendency to feel better in the evening.I'm really hoping this is progress, although sometimes in WD I wonder whether I'm just going round and round in circles ( like in that video about brain recovery ).

 

Anyway, am going back to Wiltshire today to spend a few days with my parents...staying til Monday. If I'm symptomatic whilst there, will just have to put up with it...hopefully, some company will be a nice distraction. I kind of miss the distraction of working when I'm in one of these phases, but that will come around again soon enough. Best not to wish time away.

One thing's for sure, recovery is S L O W.

[Tom37]

Sorry to hear it closed but it will open again with a little more healing being  done. Your windows seem nice and clear so can’t be far away. It’s hard to think more healing needs to be done when you feel that good.

[sunnysideup69]

2 hours ago, Tom37 said:

Sorry to hear it closed but it will open again with a little more healing being  done. Your windows seem nice and clear so can’t be far away. It’s hard to think more healing needs to be done when you feel that good.

 

Thanks Tom. On the way to parents for a couple of days, on the train. Feeling a bit off, but I think a bit of company will do me good. 

Yeah, my windows are nice and clear, pretty much normal feeling.

One thing about waves that I find hard is the mental restlessness/ agitation. That feeling that my mind just can't seem to relax. I feel hyper aware of my thoughts and body. Gotta practice more acceptance in this state, I guess.

[Cigale]

3 hours ago, sunnysideup69 said:

going back to Wiltshire today to spend a few days with my parents...staying til Monday.

 

Hello Sweet @sunnysideup69! Sorry about the new wave but sure hope and totally believe that time with your parents will fill your heart with love and calm. I find that when I can move beyond my neuro fears/anxieties to connect with and really listen to others with all my presence, that I feel just a little better. And I agree with Tom that is seems you are definitely moving to a better, more even sunnier place day by day. You are healing my friend, believe it!

[sunnysideup69]

7 minutes ago, Cigale said:

 

Hello Sweet @sunnysideup69I find that when I can move beyond my neuro fears/anxieties to connect with and really listen to others with all my presence, that I feel just a little better. And I agree with Tom that is seems you are definitely moving to a better, more even sunnier place day by day. You are healing my friend, believe it!

 

Totally agree, and I think part of the issue for me is that I'm alone a lot of the time at the moment because of Covid situ in the UK. Also, have isolated for a week so that I hopefully don't take any unwanted germs home....

I've got more 'people contact' days lined up when I get back to London on Monday and throughout August. Also doing some catsitting, will be wonderful to be around those furry friends, two gorgeous Siamese cats.

I think being around other people is essential for recovery. (Not stressful, aggravating people, though.) We need other people for self regulation, for sure. This has been such a lockdown challenge.  Looking forward to having company for a couple of days.