Tommy: am I withdrawing?

[manymoretodays]

Hi Tommy, @Tommy

I just merged your recent post on back here from the tapering forum.  Sounds like you have been a bit skeptical for some time. 

 

Obviously, as a moderator here, and as a member for quite some time, I believe in the tapering process of 10%, from each previous dose.

One of the reasons I moderate is to perhaps help people avoid some of the major snafus' that I encountered, that created a lot of suffering and struggle in my life.  Healing up nicely now, thanks.

 

So yes, I am all for slow tapers. 

At the lower doses, it might stay the same(not easier or harder), or some may even begin to decrease in smaller increments.  I don't think WD symptoms or the severity of them get worse at the lower dosages, no.

 

You might want to look at the Why taper by 10% topic again.

 

And maybe others will comment right here.  As to their own experiences.

 

Please let us know if you'd like any help when you begin your taper.  And keep us updated. 

 

Please do a signature to help us out too.

 

Thank you.

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

 

[Tommy]

I'm wondering if I can I should start doing a slow taper whilst I am still have waves and windows. I have been on 10mg of citalopram for about 9 months after fast tapering from 20 mg and holding. Before that I have had about 4 failed attempts at getting off the medication over about 7 years coming on and off. I want to start tapering but not sure what to do? 

[Altostrata]

Hello, @Tommy. Please put updates in your Intro topic.

 

What kinds of waves and windows are you feeling now? How have they changed in the last month?

 

To help us out, follow these instructions Please put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature You may need to use a computer to do this. Please put ALL your drugs in the Drug Interactions Checker https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php and copy and paste the results or a link to them in this topic.

[Tommy]

I've been having waves and windows for probably about 8 months. I was on a window for about 3-4 weeks then about a week again I felt a wave coming, not sure why or what triggered it. My symptoms are my mind won't stop racing from one thing to another, exhaustion/tiredness all time, fatigue. Low mood, headache, muscle aches, lack of motivation. I am still working and have a physical job and most days I get home and just want to sleep. 

[Tommy]

Also the waves don't change much in terms of symptoms. It's hard to say if they're more severe than the last one. 

[Tommy]

Any moderators with any suggestions? 

[Tommy]

Titled:  Withdrawal or poopout?

 

I have been on citalopram 8 years coming on and off. Currently have waves and sometimes windows since I last dropped my dose from 10mg to 20mg last july. Should I be stable by now or could this be 'poopout' of the drug because I've been on it for some time. Please if anyone could help I would be grateful. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by manymoretodays
merged 2nd Introduction topic to main Introduction

[Tommy]

I'm in a bit of trouble and don't really no which way to turn or what to do. I know the moderators may be busy but a little advice is needed. Should I carry on holding or should I begin a taper? 

[sunnysideup69]

Hi @Tommy,

If you tag one of the moderators by name, like I've just tagged you, they will be more sure to see your post. To tag, type @ and then start writing their name, several options for members come up, just click on the right person.

PS I'm not a moderator, so please wait for someone else's advice, but you've been on /off Citalopram (like I was before) and your last cut, from 20mg to 10mg, was a fifty per cent drop. That's a big drop.I'm no expert, but I'd hazard a guess it's withdrawal you're experiencing rather than poopout....you're in the right place to get advice

[Tommy]

Right thanks that's great @sunnysideup69 didn't know you could do that. Yeah I think I maybe am still in withdrawal but wasn't sure, I'm no expert either and there's a lot of grey areas in withdrawal. I just want a clear plan that I can stick to.  @Altostrata @Gridley would love to hear some input. Thanks

[sunnysideup69]

I'm guessing WD because I did similar things on the Cit...up/ down/ on/ off then switched. I've been waiting for stability since August last year. Am also still stabilising, was doing better then stress hit and I'm a bit wavey again. Anyway, good luck, it's a really helpful site  

[Tommy]

Thanks @sunnysideup69 great help. Hope you also find recovery soon.👍

[manymoretodays]

Hi Tommy,

Just one introduction topic per member.  Merged your recent questions back here.

And thank you for getting your signature done.  So much easier, when all your information and questions are in one place.

  

On 4/15/2020 at 12:13 PM, Tommy said:

I've been having waves and windows for probably about 8 months. I was on a window for about 3-4 weeks then about a week again I felt a wave coming, not sure why or what triggered it. My symptoms are my mind won't stop racing from one thing to another, exhaustion/tiredness all time, fatigue. Low mood, headache, muscle aches, lack of motivation. I am still working and have a physical job and most days I get home and just want to sleep. 

 

So, you are presently in a wave, and you have been HOLDING at the 10 mg dose, since last July?

I'm just looking on back in your introduction now.  Wondering did you decide on a scale or going with liquid for further tapers?

Any additions lately or supplements used?

 

I think if I were you, I might wait until the present Wave has passed and then, begin a taper of 10%.  Which would be going to 9 mg of Citalopram.

Some good links, applicable to your situation are on page 1.  The topic on tapering Citalopram, and also more around WDsyndrome.

 

Have you tried either of the below yet?

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Please research all supplements first and only add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

In regards to your question of "Is this poopout or WD?"  Sounds more like WD, as you report waves and windows for 8 months.  Sometimes non-drug coping is the best you can do for awhile.  So much great stuff here, in our Symptoms and Self Care forum, I'll leave one topic that has a whole indexed list of things to try to, right in the first post, that may help with some of your symptoms now:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

Best Tommy,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

 

@Tommy

Edited April 18, 2020 by manymoretodays
additional, after merging

[Tommy]

Hi @manymoretodays yes that's right I've been holding since last july and currently in a wave which started last week. before that I felt ok for about 3 weeks and was considering tapering then 'bang' I hit a wave again. That's why I thought the drug might of 'poopout'  ciz I keep having waves but not sure. 

Yes I have got the scales, had them about 6 months but still not used them. 

I have taken some high dose magnesium capsules but think they were too strong as they made me feel a bit off so in getting some more smaller mg to take. Also not got any fish oil yet but I am getting some this week. I do have a high fat smoothie every morning with coconut oil, organic ghee, nut butter and berries, that has helped. 

[Altostrata]

On 4/15/2020 at 11:13 AM, Tommy said:

I've been having waves and windows for probably about 8 months. I was on a window for about 3-4 weeks then about a week again I felt a wave coming, not sure why or what triggered it. My symptoms are my mind won't stop racing from one thing to another, exhaustion/tiredness all time, fatigue. Low mood, headache, muscle aches, lack of motivation. I am still working and have a physical job and most days I get home and just want to sleep. 

 

What symptoms are worse in your waves?

 

Are your waves preceded by any unusual events, such as staying up very late or drinking alcohol? Do you do shift work?

 

Do your symptoms follow any daily pattern?  Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right

[Tommy]

Ok @Altostrata I will keep notes of my daily symptoms over the next few days and post it. I don't work shifts I have my own window clean buisness so I'm out and about outside all day on my feet. It can be very physical some days. I do drink alcohol occasionally but have cut down a lot and don't take any recreational drugs anymore. When I do drink alcohol I feel okay sometimes but other times I can feel bad a few days later. My main symptoms at the minute are severe tiredness, fatigue, feeling numb, lack of motivation, anxiety and my mind just constantly racing from one thing to the next mostly obsessing about my symptoms l. I think because my mind won't shut down I'm feeling exhausted. I am sleeping fine most the time. 

[Altostrata]

Your nervous system is sensitized from the drug changes. Every time you drink alcohol, you will shake it up again. It may take some weeks to settle. This may be why you are still having windows and waves since July 2019.

 

Please do not drink alcohol, let your nervous system calm down. 

 

When your mind is going, what thoughts are coming up?

 

It's a good sign you're sleeping well.

[Tommy]

Thanks @Altostrata The thoughts are hard to describe they're like racing and intrusive thoughts like my own voice saying 'you will never get better' or 'you're never getting off these drugs' then going on to something else. They are quite draining and obsessive but I did have these before I took the drug they just feel more intense. I'm also getting brain fog and headache.

As for the alcohol I've found when I have a few drinks I'm okay it's when I have one to many that could trigger these waves but I will stay off it now. 

Do you think I should still hold on 10mg when this wave is over or start a slow taper? 

[Altostrata]

11 hours ago, Tommy said:

racing and intrusive thoughts like my own voice saying 'you will never get better' or 'you're never getting off these drugs'

 

Those are your own thoughts, you are discouraging yourself. You need to learn to turn them off. See

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

 

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

 

Shame, guilt, regret, and self-criticism

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

What is the sleep cycle?

 

Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

TV or computer use in evening can disrupt sleep: Bright light signals the brain that it's daytime

 

11 hours ago, Tommy said:

As for the alcohol I've found when I have a few drinks I'm okay it's when I have one to many that could trigger these waves but I will stay off it now. 

 

No amount of alcohol is okay when you're sensitized by withdrawal syndrome. I do think this is why you have not stabilized.

 

When was the last time you had a drink?

 

You'll need to take care of yourself and not rock the boat for several months, let it settle down before you can think about tapering again.

[Tommy]

Hi @Altostrata I've not had a drink for a few weeks and will take your advice and cut it right out. 

As for the windows and waves should I expect them right the way through as I begin to taper? That's a bit discouraging and the bit that's confusing me. What's the best advice you can give me now for a long term plan? Thanks 

[Altostrata]

You should be experiencing few to no waves when you start to taper. Waves mean your nervous system has not settled down.

 

If I were you, I'd hold on 10mg, and use the techniques above (read the links) to manage your symptoms. You'd be surprised how you can train yourself to quiet racing thoughts.

[Tommy]

Thanks @Altostrata I'm going to have a break from here for a while and let things settle down. I'm really hoping I will stabilise over the next few weeks/months then I can get on with a slow taper. 

I will be back to let you know how things go. Thanks for the advice. Knowledge is power👍

[Altostrata]

Sounds good. Please do take care of yourself, listen to your body, it needs tender loving care right now. Come back and let us know how you're doing.

[Tommy]

Hey @Altostrata I know I said I would be back in a few weeks but my symptoms  have got worse and worse in the last few days. I feel severely tired and fatigued, headache, brain fog,  my whole body is aching constatly also I feel very depressed, anxious and finding it hard to function. I really don't feel good and really don't know what to do. Should I reinstate a small amount, could the drug of stopped working or something like 'poopout', should I carry on holding? Some advice needed please. 

[Altostrata]

Has anything happened that might have triggered this wave?

[Tommy]

Nope nothing. I don't understand it. I was feeling okay only 2-3 weeks ago. I had a few alcoholic drinks then but nothing since, I've always been able to handle drinking alcohol so can't see it being that. I've been behaving myself, not drinking, eating healthy working hard and trying to exercise when I have the energy. I'm sleeping like 8- 9 hours a night, I wake up nakerd. I Feel like crap in the day then 3 o'clock I'm exhausted again and have to go back to sleep when I finish work for like 2 hours. I have muscle aches in my neck, back and arms that I've never had before that could be work related but I've never had it this bad. I feel a bit better in the evenings. 

[Altostrata]

When was the last time you had a drink?

 

Is being tired in the morning your primary symptom? What time of day do you take citalopram?

 

If you're doing physical work, it could be causing muscle aches. You'll probably need to do more stretching.

[Tommy]

I last had a drink just over 2 weeks ago. 

 

I wouldn't say it's my primary symptom. I'm not just waking up tired, I'm tired all day, I also have this weird fog over head and eyes.

I'm also feeling depressed with the intrusive thoughts and fatigue and have zero motivation. 

 

I take my citalopram in the morning between 8-9. 

 

Yeah I don't think my job Is helping at the minute. 

 

Everything is a dilemma, nothing seems straightforward. My concern is I've been on 10mg for 9 months and I'm not stable enough to start tapering.