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Idlehnds

Idlehnds theory of the withdrawal loop

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Idlehnds

Hi Everyone!  I felt it was important to give a quick understanding about what I have learned through withdrawal and how to possibly break the cycle of the extended withdrawal loop.

 

I believe withdrawal is only 2-6 weeks in length.  I am not a doctor, but when the doctor says that withdrawal is only this long, I believe they are right.  The issue they don’t understand is the loops our brains go into that keep the symptoms going for much longer.

What happens is our nervous system and our brain becomes hypersensitive during this process.  As I have learned, withdrawal is basically emotional/physical trauma according to our brains.  When you go through such a difficult period of brain zaps, bad digestion, insomnia, headaches, and the list can go on and on.   I haven’t even mentioned the completely weird symptoms that make no sense that every doctor thinks you have some serious condition.   So now our brain has gone through some serious trauma of symptoms that a lot of us have never had or maybe haven’t had in a long time.   What is happening right now is your subconscious is sending these alerts to conscious brain that we are “under attack”, “something bad is happening”, “be hyper vigilant”!  So the conscious brain starts to worry, trys to fix it, starts googling, starts focusing on symptoms, fear, fear, fear, fear (creates neural pathways), go on forums and see if people have the same symptoms (which is fear).  It then goes back to our subconscious and reaffirms this which then starts firing up the defense system AKA fight or flight.  When you are in fight or flight guess what happens, more symptoms and then the loops start all over again.

 

So how do we break this loop?  For me, these are the biggest things that have helped.

 

1.       Mindfulness.  You have to first be aware of your thoughts in the conscious stage of this loop.  You can’t fix the symptoms, but the thoughts/feelings you can rewire which will eventually stop the symptoms.

2.       Find a program like Gupta Programme, or  DNRS.  These are both neural retraining programs that help you catch the loop and rewire it.

3.       Realize that nothing is wrong with you and that you can heal and that you are just in a loop in your brain.  The more we are stuck in the in fear (angry, jealousy, inner critic, shame, etc) the more our bodies are pumping us with stress hormones that create symptoms.  The more we are in the feeling of LOVE, the happy chemicals that heal us like serotonin, dopamine, etc.  Our bodies have a internal pharmacy that can heal anything IMO, we just need to put ourselves in the rest and digest mode in order to have our bodies heal ourselves.  Also of course diet and other things.  This bullet point is important that you are 100% believe this.

4.       Meditation.  This really helps to calm your nervous system down.  But you really need to do it for 20-30 minutes a day.

 

Here is just a small sample of something I have learned on my journey.  I hope to one day possibly be a coach where I can guide people through what exactly I did.  Most of my information is all from the retraining programs I took.   I still get into loops but I can quickly get myself out of them because I no longer fear my body.  I realize that once I get IBS, or if I get a headache my body is just telling me something.  Its always because I am not aligned with love which I have found is always the emotional cause of it.    When I am aligned with worry or fear my body is sensitive and I get symptoms.   It’s a reminder to get back to my true nature.  Joy and happiness.

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Alice1

What's your opinion about Akathisia , CT , rapid taper and adverse reaction ?

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Cloudskishawna

 you might be right I've only been off mirtazapine for 2 weeks I'm feeling the effects of withdrawals and you are right when I look up symptoms or see other people commenting on the same things it adds fear especially if they say they haven't gotten any better in x amount of months that's why I left a Facebook group for that very reason to much negativity 

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Idlehnds
1 hour ago, Alice1 said:

What's your opinion about Akathisia , CT , rapid taper and adverse reaction ?

 

It seems like Akathisia, CT withdrawal, rapid taper withdrawal and adverse reaction are all brain Trauma's that start the loop.    I am sure there is a lot more in play here such as vitamin deficiencies, life experiences that have created habits in the brain, repressed emotions, etc.  With bad trauma you create neural pathways in the brain that can really mess up your internal software.  All of these are trauma.  Changing the wiring of your brain with medicine can have a lot of effects depending on you as a individual person.  However, the great part is that I believe we have all the healing inside of us.  We just have a tendency to look outside and not within.  I thought all my symptoms was because something was wrong with me physically.  Little did I know that it was all because of my thoughts.   I will be back on Monday to discuss more if you like.  

 

 

 

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Alice1
9 minutes ago, Idlehnds said:

 I will be back on Monday to discuss more if you like.  

 Yes .. Lets keep this going .. I have a lot to ask and say ..

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Cloudskishawna

Yep I'm interested to keep it up it can give me something to look forward to 

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Onmyway
6 hours ago, Idlehnds said:

Hi Everyone!  I felt it was important to give a quick understanding about what I have learned through withdrawal and how to possibly break the cycle of the extended withdrawal loop.

 

I believe withdrawal is only 2-6 weeks in length.  I am not a doctor, but when the doctor says that withdrawal is only this long, I believe they are right.  The issue they don’t understand is the loops our brains go into that keep the symptoms going for much longer.

What happens is our nervous system and our brain becomes hypersensitive during this process.  As I have learned, withdrawal is basically emotional/physical trauma according to our brains.  When you go through such a difficult period of brain zaps, bad digestion, insomnia, headaches, and the list can go on and on.   I haven’t even mentioned the completely weird symptoms that make no sense that every doctor thinks you have some serious condition.   So now our brain has gone through some serious trauma of symptoms that a lot of us have never had or maybe haven’t had in a long time.   What is happening right now is your subconscious is sending these alerts to conscious brain that we are “under attack”, “something bad is happening”, “be hyper vigilant”!  So the conscious brain starts to worry, trys to fix it, starts googling, starts focusing on symptoms, fear, fear, fear, fear (creates neural pathways), go on forums and see if people have the same symptoms (which is fear).  It then goes back to our subconscious and reaffirms this which then starts firing up the defense system AKA fight or flight.  When you are in fight or flight guess what happens, more symptoms and then the loops start all over again.

 

So how do we break this loop?  For me, these are the biggest things that have helped.

 

1.       Mindfulness.  You have to first be aware of your thoughts in the conscious stage of this loop.  You can’t fix the symptoms, but the thoughts/feelings you can rewire which will eventually stop the symptoms.

2.       Find a program like Gupta Programme, or  DNRS.  These are both neural retraining programs that help you catch the loop and rewire it.

3.       Realize that nothing is wrong with you and that you can heal and that you are just in a loop in your brain.  The more we are stuck in the in fear (angry, jealousy, inner critic, shame, etc) the more our bodies are pumping us with stress hormones that create symptoms.  The more we are in the feeling of LOVE, the happy chemicals that heal us like serotonin, dopamine, etc.  Our bodies have a internal pharmacy that can heal anything IMO, we just need to put ourselves in the rest and digest mode in order to have our bodies heal ourselves.  Also of course diet and other things.  This bullet point is important that you are 100% believe this.

4.       Meditation.  This really helps to calm your nervous system down.  But you really need to do it for 20-30 minutes a day.

 

Here is just a small sample of something I have learned on my journey.  I hope to one day possibly be a coach where I can guide people through what exactly I did.  Most of my information is all from the retraining programs I took.   I still get into loops but I can quickly get myself out of them because I no longer fear my body.  I realize that once I get IBS, or if I get a headache my body is just telling me something.  Its always because I am not aligned with love which I have found is always the emotional cause of it.    When I am aligned with worry or fear my body is sensitive and I get symptoms.   It’s a reminder to get back to my true nature.  Joy and happiness.

Yeah, no!

We have heard this theory before, a few times in fact and at least once on this forum. And it does not explain a lot of the withdrawal symptoms - for example, the cortisol mornings or the paresthesias or the light sensitivity or the morning nausea or the windows and waves patterns which are observations we all have. Many people discover this site and other such sites months into WD so their symptoms are not caused by looking up symptoms. 


Also, this smells a lot like "blaming the victim" here and a suggestion to "pull yourself by the bootstraps." My doctor blamed all my symptoms on "health anxiety" which I have never had in my life. There is no amount of mindfulness that can get me out of a chemically induced emotional spiral and I feel very differently about the same issue depending on whether I am in a window or a wave.

 

This theory also denies the physical and physiological changes that we know occur in the brain and that do disrupt other systems - hormones etc.  So far the autonomous dysregulation theory is the one that fits the data best, as far as I am concerned. 

 

My understanding of the Gupta program is that it works for some (possibly as a placebo, possibly because it is a good program) but it really is a collation of various fads and pseudoscience ideas but it costs a lot of money. I am glad that it worked for you, for whatever reason. 


Also, I don't think that this belongs in the Symptoms and Care forum, perhaps it is better suited for the Withdrawal Dialogues? 

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Idlehnds
2 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Yeah, no!

We have heard this theory before, a few times in fact and at least once on this forum. And it does not explain a lot of the withdrawal symptoms - for example, the cortisol mornings or the paresthesias or the light sensitivity or the morning nausea or the windows and waves patterns which are observations we all have. Many people discover this site and other such sites months into WD so their symptoms are not caused by looking up symptoms. 


Also, this smells a lot like "blaming the victim" here and a suggestion to "pull yourself by the bootstraps." My doctor blamed all my symptoms on "health anxiety" which I have never had in my life. There is no amount of mindfulness that can get me out of a chemically induced emotional spiral and I feel very differently about the same issue depending on whether I am in a window or a wave.

 

This theory also denies the physical and physiological changes that we know occur in the brain and that do disrupt other systems - hormones etc.  So far the autonomous dysregulation theory is the one that fits the data best, as far as I am concerned. 

 

My understanding of the Gupta program is that it works for some (possibly as a placebo, possibly because it is a good program) but it really is a collation of various fads and pseudoscience ideas but it costs a lot of money. I am glad that it worked for you, for whatever reason. 


Also, I don't think that this belongs in the Symptoms and Care forum, perhaps it is better suited for the Withdrawal Dialogues? 

 

Hi there!  Thanks for responding!  So for the first part, You mentioned that it doesnt explain the symptoms.  I can only speak for myself on all of this and what I have discovered so please keep this in mind.  I had a bunch of symptoms that kept rotating around.  It was either IBS, or panic in the mornings, to muscle pain, tmj, emotional spirals, brain fog, and other things.   All I know that I was able to really eliminate them when I started to change my beliefs and rewire my brain.

 

So I know you were saying that there is no amount of mindfulness that can get you out of your emotional spiral.  Consciously in my brain I would be okay, but I had feelings that would erupt out of nowhere that I just couldn’t control.  I couldn't figure it out why I would sit there and have panic or have fear over something stupid.   Then the next day I would have something similar and I would have no reactions in my body.  Why do I start crying over one thing and not another and they are so similar?   I would just wake up angry and mad for no apparent reason.  Why? 

 

Before I started to ask the question why? I had to be mindful that it was happening.  I had to be able to be a watcher of what was going on.  Why would my body just automatically react, or why would I have certain emotions?  Now, I am going to back track here and tell you what got me to the part of being able to be a watcher of my feelings and thoughts.

 

About a year ago I had this extreme pain in my leg.  Like unbearable.  I went to doctor after doctor after doctor trying to find the reason.  I went to chiropractors, physical therapy, got an MRI, etc. etc.  They said had an 8mm disc bulge pressing on a nerve that was causing all my pain in two spots.  They said you had to do more physical therapy (which I already did) or I would have to go to a pain management and then to a surgeon.  Woah woah woah I thought and I starting searching around.  I found a guy name Dr Sarno who wrote a book called “Healing Back Pain” which he found a way to cure people of their back pain without any surgery or without any other normal doctor ways.  Matter of fact it was the exact opposite.  He said you needed to basically get back to exercising and do the things that you have stopped doing because of your back (removing the fear).  So, I started doing deadlifts at the gym (slowly I worked up) and started pushing myself through the pain.  I started to push away my thoughts whenever it would focus on the pain and engage in something else.  I learned about the symptoms imperative and a conditioned response (all brain stuff).  After about 3 months the pain went away and never came back.

 

This led me to believe that there is something so much more powerful with our mindy/body that I never understood.   So, I started learning about everything I could about the mind/body and spirit.  I learned a lot from a guy name Dr Joe Dispenza, Bruce Lipton, watched a documentary called Heal on Netflix and indulged myself in this type of “Pseudoscience” amongst other natural healers.  Starting seeing a Mind/Body/Spirit specialist named Dr Divi (she has a Ted Talk on Youtube) and I learned so much.  Although I got rid of my severe leg pain, I still had all the other symptoms.  All during this time I was withdrawing from my Lexapro.  Every time I would drop I would get symptoms that would lead me to more panic and fear and would keep this loop going around and around and symptoms never would stop and my erratic emotions would continue.

 

So I learned a lot about mindfulness about being the watcher of your thoughts and feelings.  I would be able to pinpoint and name my thoughts/emotions if it didn’t align with love.  There are a lot of things we don’t think about that align with fear.

 

Here is a small list of things I would notice.

1.     Judging people.

2.     Fortune telling – predicting the future

3.     Needing to prove you are right.

4.     Worry.

5.     Negative thinking.

6.     Being a victim

7.     People pleasing.

8.     Overdoing it.

9.     Anger over dumb stuff (people cutting me off on the rode or people riding in the carpool lane with only one person)

10.  Anger of family issues.

11.  Complaining.

12.  Constantly bodychecking for symptoms.

13.  Avoiding things.

 

I realized that I could see all these fearful things going on in me but I couldn’t control them.  I couldn’t stop the feelings or the thoughts.  It wasn’t until I found DNRS and Gupta.  They explained that if you can rewire your brain and stop these thoughts/feelings when they come you can heal your symptoms.  By now I was a believer because ever doctor that I have ever had only always try to fix the symptoms.  Ohh you have anxiety!  Here is an Ativan.  Ohhh you can sleep.  Here is a sleeping Pill.  Ohhh you have anxiety and can’t sleep here is a Anti-depressant.  Ohh you have leg problems lets have surgery.

 

I was a believer in the mind/body/spirit after all this.  When you rewire, you catch your thoughts (we have a lot more then you think) and you replace with it love.  That is simple version explained but there is a lot more then just that.  So I started to do what these courses said as well as Dr Divi and other people I am reading.  They say to re-ingage with Joy, rewire, and to relax.  I would meditate (calm my nervous system), rewire when any fear thought comes, and I would engage with the present moment and joy.  No matter how crappy I felt I would do it.   You know what started happening, I got happier and happier and my symptoms started to disappear.  Now I am still in the early stages but for me it’s the best I have ever felt.

 

Also let me clear up a few things that you said.

 

“We have heard this theory before, a few times in fact and at least once on this forum. And it does not explain a lot of the withdrawal symptoms - for example, the cortisol mornings or the paresthesias or the light sensitivity or the morning nausea or the windows and waves patterns which are observations we all have. Many people discover this site and other such sites months into WD so their symptoms are not caused by looking up symptoms.”

 

I had a bunch of symtpoms.  It was until I started giving compassion and rewiring my thoughts and not letting them stay for long periods of time that I was stopping the stress response in my body which takes away the vitamins, digestion, hormonal balance and completely puts resources in other parts of our body so we cant heal.  This is just my experience.  I choose to believe this because of experience and I have never been happier.

 

Also, this smells a lot like "blaming the victim" here and a suggestion to "pull yourself by the bootstraps." My doctor blamed all my symptoms on "health anxiety" which I have never had in my life. There is no amount of mindfulness that can get me out of a chemically induced emotional spiral and I feel very differently about the same issue depending on whether I am in a window or a wave.

 

I am not “blaming the victim”.  However, I am saying that we have a lot more control over our bodies then we think.  We do have the ability to rewire our brains (science calls this neuroplasticity) and when we can put ourselves back into the rest and relaxation response (parasympathetic nervous system) our hormones balance, our genes turn on or off, and our bodies heal.  This isnt a overnight process.  It could take someone days, months, years.

 

This theory also denies the physical and physiological changes that we know occur in the brain and that do disrupt other systems - hormones etc.  So far the autonomous dysregulation theory is the one that fits the data best, as far as I am concerned. 

 

Now I am not an expert in this by any means.  I do know that people that have had severe strokes, have been able to use different parts their brain that was originally thought that couldn’t be done.  For instance, people use a certain portion of there brain for moving there arms, but once that is damaged the brain can actually learn to use a different portion of the brain for that function.  So that is telling me that our brains are much more plastic then we think. 

 

My understanding of the Gupta program is that it works for some (possibly as a placebo, possibly because it is a good program) but it really is a collation of various fads and pseudoscience ideas but it costs a lot of money. I am glad that it worked for you, for whatever reason. 

 

You should sign up for the Gupta program for free and you can see the first 3 lessons for yourself so you can get a better understanding.  Its only $350.00 for the program.  Now, out of all the money I have spent on medicine, doctors, supplements, etc.  This is nothing.  I don’t know about you but I have spent a fortune.  Every time I go to the Chiropractor, the psychiatrist, supplements, etc. and spending $350.00 was well worth it to me.

 

Remember, this is just my experience, but when I stopped the fear response in my body and started engaging from love, the symptoms and emotional spirals started to change.  They started to get lesser and lesser.  I also now understand myself better then ever.  I understand that there is nothing wrong with me.  That all my life experiences (family life, friends) until now have brought me to were I am.  My brain was only doing what it knows how to do.  To protect us.  When I had extreme stress, it kept trying to protecting me.  But the protecting causes stress hormones that put my body out of balance.  It was a viscous loop.  When I was able to rewire that response, I was put back into balance.  There are still ups and downs, but I now have to tools to make sure I have way more ups then I ever did.

 

I hope you find relief and you are able to find joy and happiness Onmyway.  Lots of love.

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Alice1

All I know is that "Light" has been suffering for 14 years and he didn't start to get better until he applied all these strategies you're talking about .. It took him a year and a half , but its working for him ..    I've also heard countless stories of others as well .. I think the main problem is that we want instant success , so when one works at it for weeks and months , and doesn't see much progress they give up , and continue to behave apprehensively , which stresses the body .. That's my problem ..

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Idlehnds

I agree Alice.  I still go through my loops also.  Matter of fact I had one this weekend that I am struggling with.  I dont think the work ever ends.  It just slowly gets better and better. 

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India
On 10/12/2019 at 2:43 AM, Onmyway said:

There is no amount of mindfulness that can get me out of a chemically induced emotional spiral

Amen . 

On 10/12/2019 at 6:48 AM, Idlehnds said:

This theory also denies the physical and physiological changes that we know occur in the brain and that do disrupt other systems - hormones etc.  So far the autonomous dysregulation theory is the one that fits the data best, as far as I am concerned. 

Concur 

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Idlehnds
1 hour ago, India said:

Amen . 

Concur 

 

Sure, but I really think you have got this wrong.  Its not about fixing withdrawal.  Mindfulness wont fix withdrawal.  Withdrawal is withdrawal.  Nothing you can do about it.   But if it lasts for a long period of time its not withdrawal anymore IMO.   Its a withdrawal loop from a hyper sensitive brain that keeps trying to overprotect us.  At least from my perspective and how I am healing.   Withdrawal is trauma.  Just like any other kinds of trauma.  

 

Its like you are a soldier in the war.  You see some scary stuff, but when you get back into civilization the brain still thinks you are in war.  So when a car backfires you start to get panic because you think its a bomb.  Its like your brain isn't up to speed with the new territory.  It doesn't know that you dont have people trying to kil you on every corner.

 

Same thing with withdrawal, your brain still thinks you are at war.    And it keeps trying to protect us thinking we are still in the withdrawal trauma.

 

Its been two months since being off my AD and very easily in those two months I have gone into emotional spirals that would have left me in some serious dilemmas in the past.  With my retraining and following these courses I have been able to have the most joy I have ever had in my life and stop those spirals from happening.  I can stop a pattern before it goes into more.  With mindfulness I can be aware of these patterns happening then retrain my brain away from fear.

 

Now, mindfulness will never fix a chemically enduced emotional spiral.  It will only help you understand what put you there if it keeps happening over and over.  You need to know what put you there in order to change it or otherwise we go down the same loops over and over.   The only way I think people will truly heal is to completely change your whole look on life and change parts of your personality or otherwise it will be difficult to truly heal.  

 

I strongly believe that alot of people have some serious limited beliefs about life that holds us back including myself.  We are way more powerful then you think.

 

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Idlehnds

So I think I got a few people who like what I am doing with regards to withdrawal/trauma.   This particular technique has helped me a ton.  https://traumaprevention.com/what-is-tre/.  TRE stands for Trauma Release Exercise

 

I have done it twice and it feels like it reset my nervous system back into balance.  Its so calming!   Pretty amazing to mix this would a neural retraining.  If you want more info let me know.  I can share some youtube videos on how to do it.  Or its best to find a practitioner.

 

 

 

 

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Cloudskishawna

I'm going to try it when I get home thanks

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Idlehnds
2 hours ago, Cloudskishawna said:

I'm going to try it when I get home thanks


 

Make sure to do your research and only shake about 3 minutes to start.   Here is the video i used 

 

You have to follow all 3 in the series. Here is the first one.

 

 

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Cloudskishawna

Do have to do it all at once or can I just do 1 series I day the next 2nd day and the 3rd the next day

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Idlehnds
1 hour ago, Cloudskishawna said:

Do have to do it all at once or can I just do 1 series I day the next 2nd day and the 3rd the next day

 

Wait.  Before you do it.. You need to do research.  

 

 

 

Watch this.. You need to research and make sure its for you.  I just wanted to share something that has helped me.

 

 

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Idlehnds

They have practitioners you can go to.  It might be best for you to do that.

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Cloudskishawna

Yeah because I have no clue what I was doing I started to shake alot I'm just go to a professional 

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Arthur

Hello.. I have nerve damage to my trigeminal nerve as well as going thru  lexipro withdrawal and cannabis withdrawal.. I can resonate with the feed back loop.. my problem is that the treatment for my condition as medications that I am getting a gene test on.. my face feels like it is burning constantly on the right side and where I have had my teeth pulled.. when I close my eyes to meditate because of the trauma and sensory input all I can do is very the burning.. would these protocols and meditative methods as well as diet be able to help with my condition.. I have also dealt with much trauma before all this in my life and am wondering if I am crazy to think that having to take the least amount of medication plus working on diets and the feed back loops could help me.. thank you.. I’m in a tough spot because the nerves have been damaged in my face from bad dentistry..

I also did a way to fast taper on my last round of meds.. 

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Idlehnds
2 hours ago, Arthur said:

Hello.. I have nerve damage to my trigeminal nerve as well as going thru  lexipro withdrawal and cannabis withdrawal.. I can resonate with the feed back loop.. my problem is that the treatment for my condition as medications that I am getting a gene test on.. my face feels like it is burning constantly on the right side and where I have had my teeth pulled.. when I close my eyes to meditate because of the trauma and sensory input all I can do is very the burning.. would these protocols and meditative methods as well as diet be able to help with my condition.. I have also dealt with much trauma before all this in my life and am wondering if I am crazy to think that having to take the least amount of medication plus working on diets and the feed back loops could help me.. thank you.. I’m in a tough spot because the nerves have been damaged in my face from bad dentistry..

I also did a way to fast taper on my last round of meds.. 

 

Hi @Arthur  I do believe you can heal from anything so dont lose hope.  Here are resources that I have used to heal. 

 


I dont have any experience with the burning issues.  But DNRS or Gupta can really help a variety of issues as well as TRE.

.

Go to facebook and join the Nueral Retraining Friends group.  You can ask your questions if it would help or if anyone has had any specific experiences with it.  Make sure to read the guidelines.  You cant use trigger words like explaining what is bothering you (burning sensation) int he main post.  You have to do it in the comments.   People dont realize that when they learn about other peoples symptoms it can affect yourself.  Its like downloading a program of fear in your brain.

 

Here is the DNRS website https://retrainingthebrain.com/

As well as the Gupta Programme website https://www.guptaprogram.com/

 

Those are both mind retraining programs that can help alot.   

 

Here is the website on TRE (trauma release exercise)

 

https://traumaprevention.com/

 

There are countless youtube videos of people explaining it.  I like this one the best.

 

 

None of this stuff is overnight fixes.  It just doesn't work that way.   Its basically getting your body to stop being in a chronic fight or flight and let your body heal.    

 

Also we all have emotions that get stored in our body.  Sometimes you need to release those through psychotherapy, TRE, EMDR, tapping, etc. to get your body out of that fight or flight.

 

I hope this helps.  

 

 

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Idlehnds
3 hours ago, Arthur said:

Hello.. I have nerve damage to my trigeminal nerve as well as going thru  lexipro withdrawal and cannabis withdrawal.. I can resonate with the feed back loop.. my problem is that the treatment for my condition as medications that I am getting a gene test on.. my face feels like it is burning constantly on the right side and where I have had my teeth pulled.. when I close my eyes to meditate because of the trauma and sensory input all I can do is very the burning.. would these protocols and meditative methods as well as diet be able to help with my condition.. I have also dealt with much trauma before all this in my life and am wondering if I am crazy to think that having to take the least amount of medication plus working on diets and the feed back loops could help me.. thank you.. I’m in a tough spot because the nerves have been damaged in my face from bad dentistry..

I also did a way to fast taper on my last round of meds.. 

 

Also @Arthur with nerve pain you should see a certified TRE specialist before you do it on your own.  I am just not qualified to recommend you anything physical because I am not a doctor.  DNRS and GUPTA really help with the withdrawals.   Its a fantastic tool kit.

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Altostrata
On 10/11/2019 at 11:37 AM, Idlehnds said:

I believe withdrawal is only 2-6 weeks in length.  I am not a doctor, but when the doctor says that withdrawal is only this long, I believe they are right. 

 

The acute phase of withdrawal may last only 2-6 weeks. After that, it's post-acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS), which may last years.

 

Unfortunately, medicine has paid attention only to the acute withdrawal phase of psychiatric drugs, with the erroneous assumption that once that's over, any symptoms left over must be "relapse," no matter how bizarre they may be.

 

Mindfulness, etc. may assist coping with symptoms of both the acute phase and PAWS. This does not mean symptoms are "all in the mind"; they are signs of your nervous system struggling to achieve homeostasis again.

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Idlehnds
3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

The acute phase of withdrawal may last only 2-6 weeks. After that, it's post-acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS), which may last years.

 

Unfortunately, medicine has paid attention only to the acute withdrawal phase of psychiatric drugs, with the erroneous assumption that once that's over, any symptoms left over must be "relapse," no matter how bizarre they may be.

 

Mindfulness, etc. may assist coping with symptoms of both the acute phase and PAWS. This does not mean symptoms are "all in the mind"; they are signs of your nervous system struggling to achieve homeostasis again.

 
 
Yes exactly.  The question is what causes the long withdrawal.   I believe it is because withdrawal is trauma and our brain creates neural pathways from this experience.   Then our nervous system is constantly trying to protect itself in a hyper sensitive state.  It creates a loop that is difficult to change unless you rewire your brain.   Unless you can teach your nervous system it is safe which is difficult when they dont understand how to do that.   Your brain is still trying to overprotect you because of the trauma from withdrawal.   Mindfullness is only one step of the process.  You have to be aware of the thoughts that cause your nervous system and limbic system in the unsafe zone.   If you arent they can never fix the process or you go back to a state of issues.    I believe we all have more power of this process then you think.   We can utilize programs to stop the thoughts that lead to the loop.   You have to almost radical change how you view life.   There are countless tools and ways to deal with this from learning about heart rate variabilty, meditation, yoga, TRE, changing your beliefs, giving yourself love snd compassion.   This isnt a overnight process but a continual thing.   If we dont have the tools once we come off these drugs it can last a long time but it doesnt have to.  Some of us have created thought habits such as anger, shame, fear, etc and when on the drugs these emptions are repressed.  Remove the drugs and dont have these tools you are going to have a long hard time especially dependent on your upbringing, other traumas and thought habits (nueral pathways) you have.   Which creates the everlasting cycle.  I have learned this in my own healing so i just want to help people if they are pulled to this.

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Altostrata

I disagree. Post-acute withdrawal syndrome is seen with all psychotropic drugs, including addictive ones such as opiates, with remarkably similar symptoms. It is a natural progression from acute withdrawal symptoms. Obviously, the body does not bounce back completely from acute withdrawal syndrome.

 

It's hard to argue, for example, if someone has withdrawal-induced nausea with brain zaps, and the nausea with some other acute withdrawal symptoms go away in some weeks but the brain zaps continue, that the brain zaps are a result of psychological trauma that might be resolved by will.

 

While people are understandably appalled and fearful about their conditions -- they feel terrible, after all -- post-acute withdrawal syndrome is not post-traumatic stress disorder. It does a disservice to those suffering from either to conflate them.

 

Attempts to "rewire the brain" may have other benefits -- and I encourage people to do this -- but they do not cure post-acute withdrawal syndrome, despite anyone's deeply held beliefs (lots of psychiatrists believe the PTSD theory of PAWS). We don't have lots of people here suffering PAWS for years because they haven't applied the correct self-awareness.

 

I know from experience that some people will interpret your suggestions as blaming the victim and I request you take into account that we do not have complete control over physical and neurological healing, though we can certainly support it with the methods you suggest.

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Idlehnds
26 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

I disagree. Post-acute withdrawal syndrome is seen with all psychotropic drugs, including addictive ones such as opiates, with remarkably similar symptoms. It is a natural progression from acute withdrawal symptoms. Obviously, the body does not bounce back completely from acute withdrawal syndrome.

 

It's hard to argue, for example, if someone has withdrawal-induced nausea with brain zaps, and the nausea with some other acute withdrawal symptoms go away in some weeks but the brain zaps continue, that the brain zaps are a result of psychological trauma that might be resolved by will.

 

While people are understandably appalled and fearful about their conditions -- they feel terrible, after all -- post-acute withdrawal syndrome is not post-traumatic stress disorder. It does a disservice to those suffering from either to conflate them.

 

Attempts to "rewire the brain" may have other benefits -- and I encourage people to do this -- but they do not cure post-acute withdrawal syndrome, despite anyone's deeply held beliefs (lots of psychiatrists believe the PTSD theory of PAWS). We don't have lots of people here suffering PAWS for years because they haven't applied the correct self-awareness.

 

I know from experience that some people will interpret your suggestions as blaming the victim and I request you take into account that we do not have complete control over physical and neurological healing, though we can certainly support it with the methods you suggest.


Thank you for a great reply!  I do disagree but that is okay   I do believe we have a much bigger impact in our healing then our western medicine has us believed to think.    I dont mean to discredit anybody here and have them blame the victim.   I have had difficult times and over the years whether from withdrawal to depression and anxiety.  I have not begun truely healing until I understood that our Mind/Body/Spirit is connected more deeply then we can ever imagine.   
 

If i didnt have tools when I was withdrawing I would of been pushed back into a hole and would have had struggled.    I wonder if there is anyone who is in prolonged withdrawal who has truely followed the a course of Gupta or DNRS for the 6 months and still didnt heal or feel drastically improved.   I would love to hear about it.  In this post someone has even mentioned of another user who didnt start healing from years of  withdrawal until they started a program like this.

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Idlehnds

One last note is that maybe we are both right.  Part of the whole backbone of brain retraining is bringing joy back into your life.    Joy and love heals and if your brain is stuck from some chemical imbalance its not going to go back into homeostatis if all your thoughts are fear and negativity.   You have to have the proper soil, water amongst other things for the plants to grow.  Your mind and healing process is no different.   Its not just about rewiring your brain but about bringing in the chemicals of healing.   Joy and love do this.  

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Altostrata

I fully support the techniques you suggest. Learning them conveys important life skills, whether one is suffering from withdrawal syndrome, relapse, or PTSD.

 

I do not believe there's a basis for your theory of post-acute withdrawal syndrome. There's no need to guess, we know what it is. But otherwise, we agree.

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Onmyway
15 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I fully support the techniques you suggest. Learning them conveys important life skills, whether one is suffering from withdrawal syndrome, relapse, or PTSD.

 

I do not believe there's a basis for your theory of post-acute withdrawal syndrome. There's no need to guess, we know what it is. But otherwise, we agree.

They're good tools and not created by the Gupta organization. They've been created by various people way before he started and can be found through various CBT books and courses or MBSR therapy so no need to spend the enormous amount of money on the "Gupta method" just because he dresses it pretty by calling it neural reprogramming. There are also numerous web resources and wonderful apps for CBT and mindfulness. The Claire Weeks method is linked on the website and is very useful as well. 

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Idlehnds
7 hours ago, Onmyway said:

They're good tools and not created by the Gupta organization. They've been created by various people way before he started and can be found through various CBT books and courses or MBSR therapy so no need to spend the enormous amount of money on the "Gupta method" just because he dresses it pretty by calling it neural reprogramming. There are also numerous web resources and wonderful apps for CBT and mindfulness. The Claire Weeks method is linked on the website and is very useful as well. 

 

Yes.  Very True.  However, its a program with alot of other features.   I think sometimes you need structure and need to following specific guidelines as well as getting coaches to help you through it.  Nothing is new about the material except how it is explained which is exceptional.  Also peer support going through this program is priceless but its better through DNRS.  Gupta was $299.95 but one thing that really is important about it, is how it teaches you that there is nothing wrong with you.  He explains the condition very nicely.   Takes away alot of fear which I think is the biggest driving factor in this whole thing.   I have learned that when you look at anxiety or fear differently it kinda starts to flow away, but when you resist and you keep trying to find a way to get rid of it, it only makes it stronger.

 

Honestly I have probably spent $1,000's and $1,000's  of dollars on supplements, doctors, time off work, etc. etc.   To find something that is $300 bucks that is helpful why not?  It has a money back feature too so if you buy it and you dont like just get your money back.   You can sign up free for the first like 2 or 3 sessions to get a feeling what its like.

 

Trauma release exercises  (TRE) which is 100% free and has also been instrumental in calming my nervous system.  

 

3 steps to healing.  Retraining our thoughts, Calming the nervous system, and reengaging in Joy.  

 

 

 

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KMart95

This is a really bad sales pitch. Stop blaming people for what they're going through. No one can think their way out of this and it's insulting that you come to a support forum where hundreds of people have experienced severe protracted withdrawal and you discredit them. The people who say this kind of stuff are always the ones who haven't gone through it themselves. 

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intothewoods
12 hours ago, KMart95 said:

This is a really bad sales pitch. Stop blaming people for what they're going through. No one can think their way out of this and it's insulting that you come to a support forum where hundreds of people have experienced severe protracted withdrawal and you discredit them. The people who say this kind of stuff are always the ones who haven't gone through it themselves. 

@KMart95, thanks for saying what I've been thinking since I found this page. 

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Idlehnds
18 hours ago, KMart95 said:

This is a really bad sales pitch. Stop blaming people for what they're going through. No one can think their way out of this and it's insulting that you come to a support forum where hundreds of people have experienced severe protracted withdrawal and you discredit them. The people who say this kind of stuff are always the ones who haven't gone through it themselves. 

 

5 hours ago, intothewoods said:

@KMart95, thanks for saying what I've been thinking since I found this page. 


I understand now where I am at on these boards. I am honestly just trying to help people.  Its a shame that everyone seems so against it.  I have said a bunch of tools that can help people and that is all I am trying to do.  I am not saying anyone is wrong or I am defenitly not selling anything.   I have gone through troubles myself and have had alot of suffering and finally found that all the answers were within.   Its okay.  This is everyones each and own journey in this life.   I have learned that when people need the help they will come to you when it was suppose to be and want to learn from that instead of going out and trying to help people.  It never works that way, or maybe in the way i did it.  It never worked for me when people were trying to help me in my dark times.  I had to figure it out myself.   I hope you all end your suffering and best of luck to you.   I send all my love to each of you.  

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Arthur

There is nothing wrong with anything you are saying.. just trying to help.. what may help one person my not help another and an new tools we can use to help out cause is welcomed and appreciated.. like you said I have spent thousands of dollars try to help my condition.. therapy ain’t free either.. do not let others discourage you from trying to do good and help..

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intothewoods

@Idlehnds, I know we all want to help each other. The problem I have with this board is 1) the title -- "The Withdrawal Loop" and 2) the first two sentences you post are:

On 10/11/2019 at 2:37 PM, Idlehnds said:

I felt it was important to give a quick understanding about what I have learned through withdrawal and how to possibly break the cycle of the extended withdrawal loop.

 

I believe withdrawal is only 2-6 weeks in length.

 

Friends and family have read this and believe that I should not be in bedridden WD for years now. I don't blame them for thinking that. That's what you are saying. Very few members of the public will dig through the thread to see all the various comments and work to ascertain that perhaps withdrawal is more than a short time. 

If they do wade through, they'll find a heavy pitch for the Gupta program like this:

 

On 12/23/2019 at 1:54 PM, Idlehnds said:

Gupta was $299.95 but one thing that really is important about it, is how it teaches you that there is nothing wrong with you.  He explains the condition very nicely.

 

So Gupta teaches there is nothing wrong with us physiologically (I know his program so understand it's a bit more complex yet that is the core tenant: healing from within) and that gets us in more trouble. As Altostrata and others commented, the Gupta techniques in general are helpful and offered from many sources both new and old and also free. We agree we must work on our thoughts and emotional spirals, that meditation and other self-care tools are essential. It's just that to me, this board/page misleads from the start and causes hurt to members and their loved ones. 

 

You seem very genuine and loving so please, it's nothing personal. I simply have been hurt by this information and the way it is presented. 

 

 

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KMart95

If you want to push your overpriced scammy doctor to other people here, it is up to them whether they want to run with that and fork out hundreds of dollars hoping for a way out. I think it's wonderful when people recommend things here that could be helpful. I practice mindfulness myself. The difference is that you come with a very distorted view of what withdrawal is really like and why it happens. I feel that most people who have gone through severe protracted withdrawal are frequently told by friends, family and doctors that it's all in our heads and if we just change our thought process we can heal. Unfortunately, that is not the issue and I don't think we need to hear that in a place that's meant to be supportive and understanding. The problem is a nervous system gone haywire. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but your opinion is just not holding up.

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