Idlehnds theory of the withdrawal loop

[Idlehnds]

2 hours ago, intothewoods said:

@Idlehnds, I know we all want to help each other. The problem I have with this board is 1) the title -- "The Withdrawal Loop" and 2) the first two sentences you post are:

 

Friends and family have read this and believe that I should not be in bedridden WD for years now. I don't blame them for thinking that. That's what you are saying. Very few members of the public will dig through the thread to see all the various comments and work to ascertain that perhaps withdrawal is more than a short time. 

If they do wade through, they'll find a heavy pitch for the Gupta program like this:

 

 

So Gupta teaches there is nothing wrong with us physiologically (I know his program so understand it's a bit more complex yet that is the core tenant: healing from within) and that gets us in more trouble. As Altostrata and others commented, the Gupta techniques in general are helpful and offered from many sources both new and old and also free. We agree we must work on our thoughts and emotional spirals, that meditation and other self-care tools are essential. It's just that to me, this board/page misleads from the start and causes hurt to members and their loved ones. 

 

You seem very genuine and loving so please, it's nothing personal. I simply have been hurt by this information and the way it is presented. 

 

 

I just read your signature and I understand your struggle from it.  I am also terribly sorry about your family reading this and saying you shouldnt be in bed.   They just dont understand what you are going through.   I cant remember how many times people would tell me that it was all in my head.   They just don't understand how it feels.

 

For anything short of a emergency or serious illness i dont trust doctors and I cant believe the mix of SSRI they gave you.   I stopped believing them when I fixed my horrible pain in my leg from doing the exact opposite of what doctors told me to do which turned my whole belief system about our medical industry.  I started to learn about the mind/body connection.  I realized that most western medical doctors are controlled by big pharma.   Not all but most.   This is a whole another debate.
 

Just because I said that withdrawal is 2-6 weeks doesn’t include years of trauma and neural pathways that each of our lives have wired in our subconscious.   I grew up bullied and had a over protective mother that made me a people pleaser and an anxious person.   I have shame issues with my body, think I am short, and have been trained by my mom growing up to be a worry wart, and i am highly sensitive.   I have also had other highly stressful periods in my life that i didnt know how to handle that wrecked me.  If i didnt find these programs that lifelong trauma and belief system would of kept me in deeper nervous system issues.   I would of dug myself deeper and deeper instead of doing what both DNRS and Gupta said as well as the other tools at once during my withdrawal phase or my nervous system would of gotten worse and worse.
 

My trauma growing up and my personality mixed, created neural pathways in my brain that dictates which chemicals are released or not released in our brains.  There is much more to this story and thread but i think it wasnt conveyed right.   You almost need to take a course alot of this stuff.    If you want we should have this title changed or removed or the thread removed.  I dont want to cause any more harm.
 

 

[Idlehnds]

2 hours ago, KMart95 said:

If you want to push your overpriced scammy doctor to other people here, it is up to them whether they want to run with that and fork out hundreds of dollars hoping for a way out. I think it's wonderful when people recommend things here that could be helpful. I practice mindfulness myself. The difference is that you come with a very distorted view of what withdrawal is really like and why it happens. I feel that most people who have gone through severe protracted withdrawal are frequently told by friends, family and doctors that it's all in our heads and if we just change our thought process we can heal. Unfortunately, that is not the issue and I don't think we need to hear that in a place that's meant to be supportive and understanding. The problem is a nervous system gone haywire. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but your opinion is just not holding up.

 

I just really wish you could understand this. I am no way saying this in your head.   This is not what I am saying. There is so much more to this whole topic it can be a course.   I chose to learn as much as possible and grow and this whole thing can be a 24 hour debate and discussion.

 

Honestly this is causing me issues and I am spending too much time concerned over this.  I figured people would be excited and hopeful to try something that has worked for someone else and understand that there protracted withdrawal is something they could understand and could ease there suffering.  When I learned I wasnt “broken” and that my life experiences and personality has gotten me to where i was i gave myself compassion and love and started healing.  I was no longer this victim of who I have become.   Just my journey.   I think we need to delete this thread and move on.  I think you are right and we dont need controversy or debate about this.   I think it all causes more harm then good and if it isnt helping people its not worth it.  

I was hoping for people to want to learn more and have more debate and not shun me for these ideas.   Please delete this.   Can I do it since I created it?
 

 

 

[Altostrata]

@Idlehnds, this is a valid discussion. I appreciate your sincere desire to help.

 

The methods you suggest can indeed be helpful to take the edge off some withdrawal symptoms.

 

I think we all agree now that post-acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS) is not a product of bad thoughts but an iatrogenic condition for which we need to develop coping skills, such as those you suggested.

[Junglechicken]

Agree with you Alto that mindfulness helps with coping skills during a wave, but it doesn't change the fact that the CNS is trying to fix itself over time, and thus we are going to experience what could be multiple symptoms for a while.

 

I find this is where some therapists/alternative health practitioners "don't get it".  

 

Steve Jobs thought that by eating a purely organic diet, and being positive would cure his cancer.  It didn't.

 

 

[Tattycorum]

On 12/29/2019 at 3:59 PM, Altostrata said:

....The methods you suggest can indeed be helpful to take the edge off some withdrawal symptoms.

 

I think we all agree now that post-acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS) is not a product of bad thoughts but an iatrogenic condition for which we need to develop coping skills, such as those you suggested.

I agree. The limbic retraining program does not directly address PAWS. And the program is a great resource for going through PAWS. I have been doing the DNRS program since early December for POTS and anxiety. Withdrawal from SSRIs is not one of the conditions the program claims it will address. The program is very powerful for addressing other conditions arising from limbic system injury and can increase resilience, calm, joy, energy. These changes have helped me handle my tapering experience better. But PAWS remains a condition with difficult symptoms, to get through in all the ways recommended on these boards. 

[WillowRain]

@Idlehndshow are you doing with the Gupta program? Ive been doing it now for 7 1/2 months. I started it because at almost 3 years in PAWS i had a major setback which left me the worst ive ever been in my whole PAWS journey. 
 

To clarify a few things to do with the Gupta Program, its based on the premise that at some point whether it was exposure to a chemical, a virus, a serious stress event, a trauma, a medication, etc it created a loop of fight or flight in your amygdala/limbic system. The limbic system controls your nervous system, your immune system and your endocrine system which are 95% of your subconscious body function processes.  This is why our symptoms can be so all encompassing. 

 

The techniques taught in the Gupta program teach you how to calm the limbic system down by continually reinforcing that you are safe and not really in danger.  You are supposed to retrain every thought to do with the condition (PAWS) that comes up. Im not entirely successful with this so i try to find thoughts or things i react to (smells, foods, supplements) to use to retrain with every day. Because of my ptsd caused by PAWS at times this is difficult.  The other 2 things we are supposed to do are meditate and engage with joy(hobbies, family time, etc).  The premise is easy but the commitment isnt. 
 

is the Gupta program responsible for the last 7 1/2 months of healing or would i have healed this much without it i have no way of knowing.  After all i healed to 75% just on coping skills alone before my setback. What i am hoping is that the brain retraining will stop me from having another setback until i can fully heal. Will the Gupta program get me fully healed faster? I hope so but only time will tell. Im curently 50% healed so still not where i was before my setback but getting there.  
 

@Altostratai would be curious to know which part of PAWS you think doesnt fall under limbic system injury and isnt able to be healed by a brain retraining program like this. 

[Altostrata]

19 hours ago, WillowRain said:

 

@Altostratai would be curious to know which part of PAWS you think doesnt fall under limbic system injury and isnt able to be healed by a brain retraining program like this. 

 

From what I understand, the symptoms of PAWS may emanate from any body system. I am dubious symptoms can be traced to any particular neurobiological system.

 

It's possible that people might benefit from brain retraining, meditation, or whatever. The human mind is a wonderful thing. Simply being preoccupied with a practice that is calming may enable people to better endure through a natural neurobiological rebalancing process that is very gradual and may take a long time. Sure, why not? Feeling you have some control over your symptoms is better than worrying every step of the way.