Kornyboyo1917: Remeron 15mg

[lxjuice]

Are you in therapy? All of your symptoms seem to lean heavily on obsession/rumination and dissociation which is only one small group of possible withdrawal symptoms. Personally unless the drugs were causing some kind of serious problem, I would do a lot of therapy before tapering because that will help with the withdrawal process. Actually that's exactly what I chose to do and have just started tapering again.

[manymoretodays]

4 hours ago, Kornyboyo1917 said:

So,

 

10% of 15mg is 1.5mg

 

1.5mg divided by 4 is 0.375

 

So 0.375 a week.  How is that possible with liquid tapering?  I have 10ml, 3ml and 1ml syringes.  I could round it up to 0.4mg or down to 0.3 for better accuracy. 

 

And okay.....it can be possible.  It will depend on the concentration of your liquid. 

Basically yes though, you are subtracting 0.375 mg from 15 mg for the first week.  Or even longer, if you need to.  Some taper by just 2.5% or 5 % a month.  There is no rush to the finish line here.  Better to listen to your body and symptoms along the way and try and sneak off real slowly, while staying as functional as possible.

 

So, with the brassmonkey slide method, it would look like this:

week 1:  15 mg - 0.375 mg = 14.6 mg   (the actual number is 14.625 mg., in which case you could round down, round down if under 5, up if over 5 is a good rule of thumb)

week 2:  14.6 mg - 0.375 mg = 14.2 mg (rounded down again here)

week 3: 14.2 mg - 0.375 mg = 13.8 mg

week 4:  13.8 mg- 0.375 mg = 13.4 mg

 

So you can see, how you have more gradually decreased 10%, spread over 4 weeks, with a 2 week HOLD period after.

 

15 mg- 1.5 mg = 13.5 mg

And you'd wind up getting to 13.4 mg, doing it this way, in increments.

 

Then......if all goes well, you recalculate your next taper, based on the 13.4 mg dose that you ended with.

 

It does get a bit more complicated, when we find out what your liquid is in milligrams per millileters or mg/mL

You could see if it's in the mirtazapine tapering link.  Or even just google it.

The pharmaceutical liquids don't always come 1 mg/1 mL.......in fact that's a rarity.  We can find out more about further dilution too, if needed.

And then you can decide which size syringe works best, with most you can measure in 0.2 mL increments.

 

 

Look at the links too, I believe there are some tables in there too, that might be helpful.......that actually will do your calculations for you.  I always have to double check them, for my own sake.  Just me.

 

Good point from lxjuice.  Although......if the symptoms are all due to WD(withdrawal) syndrome.........for some therapy helps, for others just using non-drug coping and having support can really help.

 

This is all just preliminary planning right now too.  I think if you feel like you need to just stay put longer then that's totally okay too.  It sounds like the mirtazapine might have helped a bit with some of the horrid benzo WD you were having.  It doesn't mean forever, just until you feel good enough to begin a cautious and slow taper.

 

And so, left you another post Kb, on the previous page, for your perusal.

Thanks.

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by manymoretodays

[Kornyboyo1917]

2 hours ago, lxjuice said:

Are you in therapy? All of your symptoms seem to lean heavily on obsession/rumination and dissociation which is only one small group of possible withdrawal symptoms. Personally unless the drugs were causing some kind of serious problem, I would do a lot of therapy before tapering because that will help with the withdrawal process. Actually that's exactly what I chose to do and have just started tapering again.

 

Hi Lxjuice,

 

I never had an intrusive thoughts, racing thoughts, rumination or any OCD stuff before benzos turned on me. 

 

I have a weird symptom where everything I read and watch intrusively plays in my mind. For example i have been on the Facebook groups and benzobuddies for benzos for the past year. All the information I have read plays in my mind. If I think of the word reinstatement everything I have read about reinstatement will pop into my mind. It's a neverending loop of intrusive racing thoughts. My mind is constantly being bombarded with things I don't want to be thinking about. 

 

The reason I want to come off remeron is because I started getting looping music about 3 months in.  I never had this symptom in the 8 months off benzos so it's most likely the remeron. 

 

I know I have one particular form of OCD which in the hyperawareness of thinking sensorimitor OCD. I am constantly aware of my thoughts and thinking about thinking. I know radical acceptance it how to deal with it.

 

I'm on a waitlist for an OCD specialist however I have been told by many that therapy is useless because the symptoms are all drug induced due to brain damage.

 

What therapy are you doing and does it help you? I have 24/7 racing thoughts. How can therapy help that besides just telling me to let the thoughts be there? 

 

I have other symptoms which don't fall into any psychiatric category. Severe memory problems being one of them.

 

I would be interested in knowing what symptoms you are in therapy for and how the therapist has helped.

 

[Kornyboyo1917]

MMT - I really appreciate your help in the tapering steps.  I can only write a brief message right now.  If I wasn't able to get liquid remeron in my area would I be able to taper using a suspension liquid.  For example using 7.5ml of water with 7.5ml of ora plus and then remove .4 for my first cut?  Do people usually transition from tablet to liquid slowly even thought its homemade and not compounded.  I plan on rereading the links you provided when my mind is calmer.  

[lxjuice]

Well the initial part of therapy is actually just to allow the thoughts to be there which reduces their intensity. The therapeutic process of attaching to the therapist, processing emotions etc will reduce the number of obsessions.

I am in (mostly) talk therapy with someone who is trauma aware who also uses a combination of parts work, sensorimotor techniques etc.

I have the same obsessions you do with music playing non-stop, "meta" thought loops like thoughts about thoughts about thoughts about things I'm doing etc. I think it's a combination of drug damage and your susceptibility to these specific problems which is causing all this. You can work on half of that and the other half you just have to give time. I have no idea what the mirt is doing because how these drugs impact are really specific to each person especially in PAWS.

Severe memory problems are also a psychiatric symptom of depression and/or dissociation.

 

Mirtazapine is also available in an orodispersible tablet which breaks up easily even in water. You could try to ask your doctor to change your prescription over.

[manymoretodays]

On 1/24/2020 at 5:19 PM, Kornyboyo1917 said:

MMT - I really appreciate your help in the tapering steps.  I can only write a brief message right now.  If I wasn't able to get liquid remeron in my area would I be able to taper using a suspension liquid.  For example using 7.5ml of water with 7.5ml of ora plus and then remove .4 for my first cut?  Do people usually transition from tablet to liquid slowly even thought its homemade and not compounded.  I plan on rereading the links you provided when my mind is calmer.  

 

Yes, the advantage of oraplus is that the particles in solution stay more evenly distributed.  When using a do it yourself in just water, then you have to swirl your solution just prior to drawing it up in your oral syringe.  You would want to crush your tablet prior to mixing with the oraplus.

More about this here:  Starting with this post:

Just click the arrow at the top right and it will get you there.

 

And then, yes, if you are mixing a daily dose, you could just take out the .4 mL, and drink or syringe the remainder to squirt in mouth.

If you are making, say a 2 day batch, you could just subtract the .4 mL(which would also be equivalent to .4 mg if you stick with a 1mg/mL solution)

7.5 mg/mL - .4 mg/mL = 7.1 mg/mL   then for your dose.

 

Generally, we recommend, if making up more than a one day dose of solution: 

keep it refrigerated

keep it in a amber colored bottle and protect from light(glass bottles are generally best, and can be obtained on-line.....amazon, etc.)

and then use within 3-7 days

 

And okay, I hope that doesn't add to further confusion.  It's actually simpler than it all sounds at first.

Hope you are doing well enough today Kb.

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

[Kornyboyo1917]

Hello. Can someone help me come up with a taper plan in excel because I have no idea how to do it. I either want to do a 5 or 8 month taper and would like to see how each would look. Thank you

[Erell]

Hello Korny, 

 

If I understand you well, you want to taper 15m Mirtazapine (according to your signature) in 5 or 8 months ?

 

I'm sorry but the team won't help you in such a fast taper :

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1024-why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/

 

Take care ❤️

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Erell

[brassmonkey]

Hi Korny--  Is there a compelling reason for trying to taper in 6-8 months? 

 

Trying to taper that dose that fast is going to cause you a lot of problems. Our fastest recommended taper is 10% of the previous dose every 4 weeks. Even that is too fast for many people throwing them into protracted withdrawal.  Over the years we have found that going slowly on a taper is really the much faster way to do it.  If a person goes too quickly the body doesn't have time to heal and that will lead to a crash, which is very unpleasant.  Once a person has crashed it takes many months to stabilize again before they can continue with their taper.  Which, in turn, needs to be slower and more careful than before.  It also sensitized the body to any changes in dosage so symptoms tend to be much more pronounced.

 

As Erell mentioned, we do not support fast tapers and highly recommend you consider a much slower one.

[ChessieCat]

I agree with Erell and brassmonkey.  Unless there is genuine need to reduce/be off a drug quickly, then it is better to go slowly and carefully, listening to your body and holding longer if needed.  There are members here on SA who have tried to go too quickly and it has ended up taking them much longer than if they had just tapered nice and steadily.  Some of them even ended on an additional drug so they then have to get off that one as well.

 

Generally doing an SA recommended taper means that you can keep the withdrawal symptoms to a minimum and that the impact on your life is also reduced.  Some members have gone too fast and ended up with insomnia.  If that happens then you can end up with a much bigger problem.

 

I'm about 1 year off completing my taper which I started in October 2015 (started at 100mg Pristiq).  It can seem like a long time and yes I have been frustrated by it sometimes and wanted to go faster.  But if you recognise that it is because your brain needs to adapt to getting less of the drug as your taper, and that it's got nothing to do with how strong you are as a person, then tapering just becomes part of your life.

 

To me at this time it seems really strange only taking 1mg when I had been on 100mg, but I've decided that I've put a lot of effort and money into getting this far that taking another year is worth it.

[Kornyboyo1917]

Can someone please help me with a taper plan for remeron please. 

[Altostrata]

Please read the above. In January, we discussed tapering in detail.

 

Here are some spreadsheets and calculators. Staff is not going to devote time to create a spreadsheet for you so you can taper faster, we don't recommend it.

[ChessieCat]

Links for your reference:

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

how-to-calculate-dosages-and-dilutions-spreadsheets-and-calculators

 

 

And a search of the Introductions Forum so you can find others tapering Remeron:

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/search/?q=remeron&quick=1&type=forums_topic&nodes=3

[Kornyboyo1917]

The reason I want to do a fast taper from remeron is because it has made me worse than I could have ever imagined from my benzo taper 16 months ago.  I still have all the symptoms from my original post but the remeron has added many more and is giving me extreme OCD.  I am literally pacing psychotic mess 24/7.  Brain latching and looping on everything I see, hear, read, and watch.  Brain racing 1000 thoughts a second.  Complete terror like I am falling out of a plane.  Every thought causes terror even normal thoughts.  Extremely suicidal every second of the day. I cant distract all i do it pace scream and cry.  I was forced a rescue dose of xanax and 2 weeks of zyprexa in psych ward 3 months ago. I am completely out of my mind hanging on by a thread.  Don't know what to do to suvive anymore.

[Kornyboyo1917]

I am currently at 13.2mg of remeron from 15mg.  I have been tapering 2% or .3mg every 7-10 days for the past month or so.  I've been told I've been doing it wrong since I ve been cutting from orignal dose.  Can someone help me make a taper they think will work. 

[Kornyboyo1917]

I am going through extreme benzo withdrawal on top of this and I don't know what is causing what.  I am the worst case story I have ever heard about on any forum or any support group

[Kornyboyo1917]

Brain is latching onto everything I hear, read, watch etc and the thoughts are getting stuck and looping in my head one after the other.  It's the most horrific symptom i have ever experienced.  My brain keeps giving me "things" to find the answer to.  

[Kornyboyo1917]

My brain is doing this insane thing where I will hear, see, watch something and if my brain doesnt know what it means or understand what it is seeing/saying i feeel a compulsion to find the answer.  If someone says "have you seen this" my brain will latch onto and loop for hours.  One thing after another,

[Shep]

13 hours ago, Kornyboyo1917 said:

Brain is latching onto everything I hear, read, watch etc and the thoughts are getting stuck and looping in my head one after the other.  It's the most horrific symptom i have ever experienced.  My brain keeps giving me "things" to find the answer to.  

 

When I was going through this, I started listening to mindfulness videos on YouTube. My looping thoughts looped mindfulness for hours. It was the best teacher I could hope for.

 

Feed your thoughts carefully, Korny, and you could turn this into something less intense and overwhelming. 

 

Another coping skill is to turn those looping thoughts into background noise and find distractions like playing video games, going for a walk, listening to music, etc. There's absolutely no need to tune into these thoughts. They are like annoying neighbors that you can learn to ignore. 

 

13 hours ago, Kornyboyo1917 said:

I am currently at 13.2mg of remeron from 15mg.  I have been tapering 2% or .3mg every 7-10 days for the past month or so.  I've been told I've been doing it wrong since I ve been cutting from orignal dose.  Can someone help me make a taper they think will work. 

 

13 hours ago, Kornyboyo1917 said:

I am going through extreme benzo withdrawal on top of this and I don't know what is causing what.  I am the worst case story I have ever heard about on any forum or any support group

 

Going from 15 mg to 13.2 mg is a 12% reduction, which may be too fast.

 

I would stop tapering until you're more stable from benzo withdrawal. Adding antidepressant withdrawal onto benzo withdrawal is likely to make you feel worse. If you feel you're getting an adverse reaction to Remeron, you'll have to weigh the benefits of reducing against the symptoms of withdrawal. Sometimes withdrawal symptoms are worse than the adverse reaction. 

 

I re-read your thread, Korny, and I'm not sure you're getting an adverse reaction to Remeron. Do you feel you are? If so, can you tell us more about that? 

 

On 10/26/2019 at 5:59 PM, Kornyboyo1917 said:

I have been lucky enough to sleep 8-9 hours even before remeron. 

 

Why did you go on Remeron? Usually people go on Remeron to try to handle the insomnia from benzo withdrawal (although we don't advise doing so). 

 

What symptoms was this drug supposed to address? 

[Kornyboyo1917]

I was put on Remeron in the psych ward in month 8 of benzo withdrawal.  It was given to me along with seroquel for the racing thoughts.  

 

I started the remeron taper on 4/4/20.  It's giving me many more symptoms that I didn't have before.  Not sure if its from the benzo recovery or not.  It just plagues my mind constantly.

 

The thoughts are racing a hyperspeed 24/7.  There is no distraction from them its 24/7.  I'm hyperaware of every thought in my mind.  Even just thinking about normal things like my dog or somthing causes extreme terror.  Its like being electrocuted by my brain constantly.  My brain is like a parrot replaying everything I have read and watched over and over along with the myriad of other mental symptoms I have.

 

The new symptom my brain will just latch onto things constantly and wont let go.  For example I will see a breif second of a youtube video on and advertisement or something and then my brain will be like you need to go back and find that video but it's impossible to find.  My brain will be like whats the name of that wild turtle and loop on it for hours.  I cant clear thes thoughts from my mind.

 

 

As you can see I am desperate for relief.  All i do is pace a forest all day screaming and crying.

[Shep]

8 hours ago, Kornyboyo1917 said:

I was put on Remeron in the psych ward in month 8 of benzo withdrawal.  It was given to me along with seroquel for the racing thoughts.  

 

Thanks for this information.

 

It's important to know if what you're experiencing now is the same thing as what you were experiencing before going on Remeron. As you wisely note, it's hard to tell the benzo withdrawal from any upticks in symptoms that could be a side effect of Remeron. 

 

It's likely that some of what you're dealing with is battle fatigue from having fought this battle for so long. So even if the symptoms themselves haven't ramped up, your ability to navigate through them has been exhausted. 

 

If this is the case, than it may not be a side effect of the Remeron. So reducing it may not help, but may hurt because you'll have increased symptoms from Remeron withdrawal.

 

Please post your thoughts on this. Let's come up with a game plan that won't make this any harder for you. 

 

8 hours ago, Kornyboyo1917 said:

As you can see I am desperate for relief.  All i do is pace a forest all day screaming and crying.

 

Do you have akathisia? 

 

Akathisia vs restlessness, anxiety, agitation

 

As Alto notes in the second post in that thread - "Agitation is relieved by moving around, but akathisia and restless leg syndrome (RLS) are not."

 

Did you feel the need to pace before going on Remeron? 

[Kornyboyo1917]

I don't feel the need to pace because of akathisia, well atleast not the physical kind but definitely the mental kind.

 

Remeron has given me symtoms I didn't have before going on it. The symptoms are severe ocd thoughts and thinking, looping songs, looping and stuck thoughts, don't feel connected to my brain, chemical fog and terror. 

 

I'm fighting for my life every second of the day. Nothing distracts or lessens symptoms. 

[Shep]

17 hours ago, Kornyboyo1917 said:

Remeron has given me symtoms I didn't have before going on it. The symptoms are severe ocd thoughts and thinking, looping songs, looping and stuck thoughts, don't feel connected to my brain, chemical fog and terror. 

 

How is this different than your benzo withdrawal symptoms? What were your benzo withdrawal symptoms? It sounds like your benzo withdrawal was incredibly rough, as you ended up on a psych ward due to them. 

 

Did you get any relief reducing the Remeron from 15 mg to 13.2mg? When was that reduction? Please update your signature to reflect when you made this reduction. A direct link is to your signature is here:

 

Account Settings - Create or Update Your Signature

[Kornyboyo1917]

The symtoms above are the new symtoms I've had since being on remeron. I've been in psych ward 6 times the past 18 months. 

[Kornyboyo1917]

I'm still recovering from the benzo brain damage. I have all the symtoms from that and more from remeron 

[Kornyboyo1917]

This is the document that seems to be backwards: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pw4tjImAJ92OIVyRvZoZYjqxiKMk7wvp-ljiIi1olRo/edit (standard taper)

 

 It seems like the standard taper it seems the starting dose cell and reduction cylce cell is the wrong way?  Unless I am understanding it wrong?

[Shep]

20 hours ago, Kornyboyo1917 said:

This is the document that seems to be backwards: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pw4tjImAJ92OIVyRvZoZYjqxiKMk7wvp-ljiIi1olRo/edit (standard taper)

 

 It seems like the standard taper it seems the starting dose cell and reduction cylce cell is the wrong way?  Unless I am understanding it wrong?

 

The spreadsheet looks okay to me. But if you're finding it confusing, you may want to use a taper calculator instead. 

 

Here is one:

 

Reverse Psychiatry.org

 

Click on the three dots below the white rectangle and it opens up more options. You can enter the amount of the drug you're on and change the taper rate. 

[Kornyboyo1917]

Column E and F are both taking from Row B5.  Column B should be taking from B4.  

[Shep]

2 minutes ago, Kornyboyo1917 said:

Column E and F are both taking from Row B5.  Column B should be taking from B4.  

 

Thanks, Korny. I'm on my way out, but I'll see if I can get another mod to check it out. 

[brassmonkey]

I just took a look and there is a problem with the standard spread sheet.

 

Good catch Korny, yes column F is incrementing by cell B5 but it should be incrementing by Cell B4. We'll look into getting it fixed.

[Kornyboyo1917]

Hi.

 

Is there a way to taper remeron using a daily liquid microtaper.  Not necessariy making a big 300ml solution but taking 0.01ml a day or something like that?  I have looked around and can't find anything.

[Erell]

Hello, 

 

maybe you'll find some resources in these threads : 

 

1. https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/2364-the-slowness-of-slow-tapers-micro-taper/

 

2. https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/2878-micro-taper-instead-of-10-or-5-decreases/

 

Take care ☀️

 

[Altostrata]

You can microtaper Remeron if you want. Just don't try anything fancy.

[ChessieCat]

There was nothing wrong with Alto's response.  All she was doing was offering sage advice/caution from the many years that she has observed members tapering and sometimes doing silly things.

 

If you aren't happy with the assistance you get from this site, there are other sites that you might find more to your liking, eg patientslikeme.com or relevant Facebook groups.

 

[morgana]

hello i will probably get in trouble by the monitors of this website, and it is not a suggestion you should follow, however what i was doing was watching a youtube channel on benzo withdrawal, one woman explained it in simple terms which i need, rather than using a spreadsheet..

 

in that it doesnt matter how much liquid you dissolve the tablet in....i chose 25ml to dissolve  my 2.5mg zyprexa tablet in, she chose 40mls, she said it really doesnt matter... continue taking the same amount of tablet until you feel its time to start reducing it...i have a 1 ml syringe which in 6 months time i will start to taper.....reduce by maybe 0.2 or 0.5ml per two months....i am going slow cause its hell basically how i feel!

 

I am in the process of dissolving my tablet at the moment, as a result, i am not sleeping at all and i have really bad akathisia, it is horrible, i have to be constantly moving, and its a feeling of "just wanting to be out of this body", as i am taking an antipychotic, i can understand why they call it a chemical straightjacket...its a feeling of being restricted and all you want to do is be able to move, but at the same time nothing is actually restricting me from moving....(well not psyically) its basically tormenting....and yeah the lack of thoughts i actually have caused by having a chemical lobotomy and when i do start to think...yeah its repetitive.

 

also once i did start dissolving the tablet rather than swolling it (same amount), i have felt a real difference, as though it is being reduced but i havnt reduced the actual amount i am taking...but feels like i am tapering.......i dont know, that is basically how i am feeling my way round things...i hope what i have said hasnt upset the monitors, if i have i will keep my mouth shut from now on

[Kornyboyo1917]

I'm 2 years off clonazepam and at 7mg from 15mg off remeron.

 

I have never gotten any better just much worse. I am constantly being told conflicting information.  Some say I am still healing from the benzos and this is normal at 2 years off while others are saying I am in some sort of tolerance withdrawal to remeron.  I have 24/7 looping thoughts about food that started 6 months ago. I only know of one other person who has this symptom and she has it from benzos. I don't even know what to think anymore. I'm sick of fighting just to survive. I want to cold turkey the remeron and just get it over with. I don't see myself surviving this regardless.