Faure: mirtazapine withdrawal

[Faure]

I’ve been quiet because I’m on holiday! I’m having a very good time in a beautiful place.  With only 2 days (out of 14) to go I am finally feeling really good during this cycle! It was a disappointing cycle at first as I got none of the little boosts to energy I usually get from dropping.
 

Week 1; felt rubbish (not on holiday).  
Week 2: (on holiday) felt better, not great but good enough to enjoy my holiday lots.

Week 3: (still on holiday - lucky me) rough start with a nasty wave day but since then it’s been up and up and 4 days ago I started feeling much more relaxed and ready to start my holiday 😂😂😂.  So I’m taking full advantage of these last few days. I have moments when I feel happy, I hadn’t realised I haven’t felt that for a long while. This isn’t the first time I’ve had happy moments, they have been around for a few weeks but I didn’t record them on here yet. I’ve been in the pool several times which is a great improvement on my usual ability to do anything out of the usual working / resting routine. I’m also doing lots more walking around which is good and I’m hoping to keep this up when I return home. 
Week 4: starts when I get home.

 

It’s funny weeks 6,1&2 are usually the best - this time it seems to be switching to the other weeks. 

 

Thanks @Arielfor thinking of me. I hope you are not feeling too bad x

[Bestill]

I’m glad you are enjoying your holiday! And, it looks like you keep trucking along like a champ.  I assume you are back and at the tapering once again?

 

Im about to do my next drop tomorrow.  Not sure how I feel about it.  It’s been a sort of difficult month.  Hoping to find some relief soon, or cooler weather.  
 

❤️❤️

 

 

[Faure]

Hi @Bestill, thanks for your message. I tapered all through the holiday and am so glad I did. Once I hit 5.5 and after that nasty wave day things took a huge leap forward energy wise. I can now do much more than I could before - two activities in a day instead of just one, two busy days without needing a rest day in between. It’s such a huge change for me. I’m not adjusting immediately to being able to do more because, I guess, I’m so used to needing a lot of rest I worry about doing too much; but I think I can do more!  Yesterday I swam 600m (24 lengths) and was so pleased I could a) do that much and b) not feel totally exhausted by it either afterwards or today. 
 

Now I’m on 5.3 which is the end of the cycle so 2 more weeks on this dose before I go again. I’m wondering if I need the 2 week hold, thinking 1 might be enough. By the end of the 2nd week hold I’ve fully adjusted, feel sedated and then it’s a bit of a shock to my poor body to start tapering again. I think it would be better to not get too comfy on a dose. But I’m sure @brassmonkeywould disagree?!

 

Good luck with your drop today, popping by to look at your thread ☺️

[almuPA]

Hello @Faure,

 

So glad to read that you are enjoying/enjoyed your holidays! You are taking big steps!

 

Also, I am glad that the event you had in July went well. Those can be really nerve-racking, and also very tiring. 

 

On 7/8/2022 at 8:47 AM, Faure said:

This week for the first time in 2.5 years or is it 3, I’ve lost track 🙁I did 15 mins of cardio! It felt so good to have achy legs afterwards. Hooray! I’m hoping to do that a few times a week and I should soon start building up more strength and stamina for day to day life (I hope🤞)

Wow, that is so great! The feeling after running is for sure a great one, I would compare it to like a good sedation. You are tired but happy. Well done! I really miss running, but I still am too scared to go. 

 

On 8/14/2022 at 9:18 AM, Faure said:

I have moments when I feel happy, I hadn’t realised I haven’t felt that for a long while. This isn’t the first time I’ve had happy moments, they have been around for a few weeks but I didn’t record them on here yet.

 

It is curious how, after we go out of AD's or lower dose, we start feeling again. At the beginning is pure agony, but if we are lucky, little by little we can feel joy again, and it is the best feeling ever. When we are on the thick of it, suffering, you totally forget what is that. So I am very very happy that you are having those feelings back and you can enjoy life🤗

[brassmonkey]

Yes. I would disagree. The two-week hold is quite important to allow "background healing" something we don't feel, but if we don't let it happen it adds up and adds up until we get a crash. That is something you don't want to happen.

 

It is wonderful that you are feeling more energetic. Please remember that your body has been through a lot lately and even though you are feeling able to do a lot more your body might not be able to keep up for long. Enjoy feeling better, but don't push things too hard.

[Faure]

Thanks BrassMonkey for your wise advice as usual; always here to put the brakes on & remind me when needed. After almost a week of feeling like my old self, today is most certainly a full “sit on the sofa all day” rest day!  Luckily I’ve had lots of practise at those and know how to do them!  I’m pretty confident things are looking up overall and will get better the lower I go. 

[Santino]

Hi Faure

It is perfectly normal that at the doses under 6 Mg to have days when you feel devastated. It is like you are very tired and you do not want to do any thing at all. All the mirtazapine taperers complain from such feeling when they reach 6-2.5mg levels. Anyway way do not let that feeling distract u. On the good days take your time and be productive to make it up for the lost time in the bad days. On the bad days just try to push forward the mornings until the things settle late in the afternoons.

You are doing great my friend. You can also read my topic or my success story for further hints. 

All the best

Santino

[Faure]

Thank you @Santino, how great you are still here despite finishing your taper 6 years ago ☺️I expect your life is unrecognisable compared to 5 years ago?!
 

Yes, on good days I happily do what I can, and then on bad days I rest. I’m fortunate in that I can mostly do that as I only work very part time (because of this bloomin’ drug). Interestingly on days when I have to work and feel exhausted I can do it, so that gives me confidence ☺️It helps that I love my job!

 

Last week I decided to write an account of my WD from mirtazepine. It is for doctors at my GP practice and the psychiatrist who prescribed it. I am hoping that they will read it in 4 years when I’m off this drug and it will help inform them about how to better help people. So far there’s the introduction, year one and the start of year 2. 
 

Take care and thanks for taking the time to post in my thread. 

[Santino]

5 hours ago, Faure said:

Thank you @Santino, how great you are still here despite finishing your taper 6 years ago ☺️I expect your life is unrecognisable compared to 5 years ago?!
 

 

Hi Faure

Indeed it is. Not that it is more beautiful because i am more rich or bcs  i am doing more crazy things or whatever. Life is the same, problems are the same, work and business is the same, family life and family love are the same... what has changed is my natural approach to things. In the mirtazapine days i would have incredible anxiety or tiredness tackling the smallest problems. The destability was really prominent. I even could not take decisions on what or where i could travel the next day because i did not know how i could wake up. That is all gone now. I am completely normal, have learned to cope with things and the problems do not scare me any more same as they did during the mirt days. I have claimed my happy life back my friend. I can work, i can have a walk with my daughter, i can have chat with my teenage son, i can go out for dinner with  my wife and friends... i can enjoy music, walking, exercising and everything else. I can be with people without feeling anxious or something, i can "fight" with people at work without getting terrified of the consequences and so on.

What can i wish more from life...??!!! 🙂

I have red your topic somehow and i can surely say soon you will reach at the same place that i am. It will not be 4 years... i believe you are able to move faster. Anyway keep hearing your symptoms and your nervous systems.

All the best and be well my friend

Santino

[HardWork]

Hi @Faure,

Just stopping by to let you know I've read some of your posts and I'm truly impressed of your brilliance, awareness, clarity and compassion! A privilege to the community! As well as a pleasure to see how inner focused and clear you are towards your own healing.... Let's continue fighting this med-to-freedom battle!

I'm having a huge challenge with words these days but couldn't resist....

[Faure]

Thank you @HardWorkfor such kind comments. I’m sorry you’re having such a struggle and hope you soon get some respite. Just read about your meds disaster in Switzerland, looks like you got through that without too much damage☺️ How fortunate! 

[Faure]

@brassmonkey, I’m just wondering why, at the lower doses it isn’t possible to use the weight of the small tray that comes with the Gemini scales to overcome the issue of measuring tiny amounts. If I am reducing .1 or .2 of a mg each week at the moment anyway (and feeling better with each tiny reduction), which are the small amounts I’ll end up with at the end of my taper, why can’t I just use the weighing tray, say it’s 2.175 grams and then add my tiny dose onto the weight of the tray. So if my dose was .5 of a mg then I’d want the scale to read 2.180 once I’d added the powder. Would this not overcome the problem of measuring the small amounts?

[Faure]

I’m very excited today because today I reach 1/3 of my original dose. Hooray! Good cycle so far as I’ve felt the benefit of the first drop.  I’m able to do more and cope with more as each cycle passes. 
 

I have seen see some people are referring others to my 18 month long hold after reinstatement. I’d like to add that I do wish I hadn’t actually reinstated and had held at around 9mg instead of reinstating to the full 15mg. I never felt good on the reinstatement, my body never adjusted and I was extremely tired for ALL of the time. It took a year till I felt confident I’d know how I’d feel each morning. So the point I want to make is that full reinstatement was not the answer for me and I wish I’d listened to advice here (given to me at the time) to hold around 9mg. At the time I just wanted to feel better and was impatient and thought full reinstatement would be a magic bullet. It wasn’t and I wish I hadn’t done it. Anyway, I’m happy to be used as an example but please do give the full picture if you do ☺️

[brassmonkey]

Yes, that would work fine. If you put the empty pan on the scale before you turn it on the scale will automatically account for its weight and set the readout to 0000, or you can press the TARE button to set the scale to 0000. That way you don't have to calculate anything.

 

The reason for using the calibration weight in to bring the scale into the middle of its sensitivity range. The pan won't get it there, but it will be close.

[Faure]

@brassmonkeyif measuring tiny ground up doses of powder on the Gemini scales in the weighing pan will work I am having trouble understanding why liquid is being recommended for the last part of the taper… if you could clarify I’d really appreciate it please, thank you ☺️
 

If you could also link to the part you mention about using the calibration weight that would be helpful. I did once try to out the pan on top of the weight but it was too finely balanced to be practical! 
 

Thank you. 
 

11 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

The reason for using the calibration weight in to bring the scale into the middle of its sensitivity range. The pan won't get it there, but it will be close.

 

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, Faure said:

I am having trouble understanding why liquid is being recommended for the last part of the taper

 

It is possible to get very small and accurate doses using liquid.

 

For one of my dilutions I used the contents of a 2mg compounded capsule in 1 litre of water to make a 1mL = 0.002mg dose.  I didn't keep all of the liquid, just a bit more than what I needed for my doses and threw out the rest.  Another time I used 1mg capsule in 800mL to get 1mL = 0.00125mg.

 

There is no way you could get such tiny doses by weighing powder.

[brassmonkey]

It's all about accuracy and controlling the size of reductions.

 

The scales we have available are just not accurate enough to make the tiny changes in dose weight that are required for the Endgame Taper. Even at the tiny Endgame doses it is necessary to maintain 10% or less for each reduction. In the article I do outline how to do reductions using the scales and visual divisions, I did it that way myself. But it leads for much bigger reductions than should be made and for sensitive people that could cause problems.

 

For a rough estimate you will be looking at 0.01mgai for your final dose. Using data from other medications that would put you dose weight well under 1mgpw. At best the scales are accurate to doses of 4mgpw.

 

Let me know the strength of your pills as listed on the bottle and the average weight of the tablets and I can calculate more accurate numbers.

[Faure]

22 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Let me know the strength of your pills as listed on the bottle and the average weight of the tablets and I can calculate more accurate numbers.

Thank you @brassmonkey. Strength of the pills is 15mg and average pill weight as per the reading on the scales is 0.152 (g?). I’m afraid I’m not at all good with numbers. At the moment my dose is 5mg which on the scales looks like 0.050

 

I’m starting to think in about 9 months when I hit 2.5mg I should start making a liquid which I don’t get how to do at all….as you can see I like to be organised well ahead of time! Thank you for your help ☺️

[brassmonkey]

Thanks for the numbers. Yes, that gives you a Target Exit Dose of 0.01mgai.

 

If we divide the weight of the tablet (150mgpw) by the strength (15mgai) we get 0.1. This is the AIC (Active Ingredient Concentration) or how much medication is in 1mgpw. So, for each 1mgpw you are getting 0.1mgai.

 

With your scales only being able to accurately weight 4mgpw, the lowest dose you could weigh accurately would be 0.4mgai. With your Target Exit Dose being 0.01mgai you can see that the scales just aren't going to be able to do it. Because the taper from 0.4mgai to 0.01mgai still needs to be done in the same manner as your previous reductions it is much easier to work with a liquid at this point.

[Faure]

Ok, thank you. I’ll get my head around measuring the liquid ☺️

[Faure]

I am barely getting any withdrawal symptoms now. Occasionally it takes up to a couple of hours to fall asleep but not much else.
 

I’ve just read the topic by Alto ‘Why Taper by 10% of my Dosage’ and it consistently says if you don’t get WD symptoms then you can taper faster. I am wondering about switching to 5% every two weeks (with no holds unless WD symptoms build up).  Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Obviously I don’t want to get ill but if I’m not getting any WD effects surely I could do something to speed things up? 

[Faure]

@Erimus, hello, you mentioned about ingredient lists for different brands of mirtazepine. Would you be able to post them in my thread or link to them?

 

I’m sorry you’re feeling particularly bad at the moment. I hope it passes soon. 

[Erimus]

Hello @Faure.

 

Give this link a try, and let me know if it works:

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/18vtntRwLPAio0LDSpBPaX1Qh1_GdId_P/edit?usp=docslist_api&filetype=msexcel

 

Note: you will need a Google account to view it. If you’re accessing it via mobile/tablet it works better in the Google sheets app.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Erimus

[Faure]

Thanks, but I’d rather not have to access it via my Google account. Google knows quite enough about me without me voluntarily surrendering more info and I’d also like to protect my anonyminity here as well. Is there any other way? 

[Erimus]

Yeah. Here it is. I’ll have to add more if you have any patient information leaflets from brands that aren’t featured. I’ve used the first 3 and the Accord I found the ingredients online. @Alex3, you might be interested in this as well.

[Faure]

Oh wow, thank you.
☺️👍

Edited October 18, 2022 by Faure

[Faure]

I’ve had a bit of a rocky few weeks. After a lovely 6 week summer holiday I returned to my part time work teaching piano, which I love.  It’s always a rocky time of year for me, getting back to work after a long break.  I felt stressed when I started a new small group 3 weeks ago and have been worrying for a few weeks about getting ill. 
 

In the past (before a lot of therapy that finally worked) I would get the thought that it was about time for me to get ill again and invariably I would. I’d take on too much, get too busy and go down with anxiety for weeks / months and onto ADs. This time the thought is different in that I’m worrying about getting ill rather than thinking I will. I have the self knowledge and therefore the opportunity to change things before that happens this time. 
 

In the last week my precious sleep has also been difficult. Last Sunday night I was awake till 4am and during the week sleep has followed a bit of a pattern of good night / bad night. This is not the right time of the taper for that to happen. In fact it hasn’t really been like this since I started. I think this is a big red warning light. I’m in week 1 which is usually nice and easy. Perimenopause might also be playing a role, I know low progesterone causes sleep difficulties. That’s something to keep an eye on as well. 
 

Anyway, overall I think these are signs that I need to pause my taper for a bit. My instinct is telling me to take a break from tapering until after Christmas. So I’m going to listen to myself and do just that. My supportive friend won’t like it. He always wants me to just keep tapering regardless of how I feel. Perhaps I won’t even tell him I’m taking a pause, then I won’t have to have an upsetting argument & falling out. 
 

While I was awake for hours again last night I made the decision to pause. I think it’s the right one. If I’m worrying about getting ill again and not sleeping well it seems the right thing to do.  Having not listened to myself in the past there is no need to repeat past mistakes. I’m much better at listening and meeting my needs now.
 

It’s disappointing to have to stop for a while, but so much better than the alternative of things falling apart and taking months to fix. I’m finally doing a bit more work and able to meet more than basic financial needs, I am enjoying life more. I really don’t want to lose all that. 
 

Support welcome 🙏

[Bestill]

I’m sorry you have hit a little bump.  From my own experience, I can tell you when I started work back up, at a elementary school, with a bunch of kids, where many have behavioral issues was stressful.  Add in a new puppy and the new schedule for all of us to get used to.  I had a few days of anxiety and feeling awful.  6 days in total.  It passed.  I got used to the puppy, my new schedule and the routine and things calmed down.  It’s almost like a shock when you go from no work for a while and then back to work again.  I seem to be always on the go now.  But I’m here to tell you, it will get better.  You won’t get sick again.

 

I think it’s good to have a plan with your holding.  You may find things pass and then you can taper sooner than expected.  It’s good you are listening to your body.

 

When I feel things are difficult.  I compare my life to about 6 months ago or even the previous year.  I focus on how far I have come.

 

Does weather make things wonky for you?  I know change in season messes me up for a few months and then I find some stability.  I’m sure you have the weather changing over there?  We have such up and down temperatures, it’s crazy.  Thursday I was in a hat and mittens wearing a winter coat and today I could be in shorts.  Talk about havoc on the body.

 

You are always so wonderful with everyone else and being the support they need but I know if I am helping so many people, I let myself fall through the cracks because I worry about everyone else.  I’m sure you set boundaries.  But give yourself a break.  You deserve it.

 

You my friend are strong and this too shall pass. ❤️

 

 

[Faure]

Thanks @Bestill, I felt so much better once I made the decision and wrote about it here. I have stopped worrying about getting ill so I’m fairly sure it’s right to have a pause to let my body adjust to the lower levels of mirtazepine.  Once sleep is restored and I feel ready I’ll start again. It’s nice to know I don’t have to think about it till after Christmas if I don’t want to. 
 

Yes, the weather does seem to affect me - even though I like to think it doesn’t. A friend pointed that out last week when I had a wobble. 
 

It sounds like things are going well for you, I’m pleased. And a puppy, that’s a lot of extra work! I’m sure he or she is delightful and brings much joy 🐶🐾🐶

[Alex3]

@Faure Hi Faure, I noticed on a thread that you were pondering a speeding up the tapering and was going to comment not to be seduced into rushing with things and maintain going steady. Keep patient and keep to the plan whatever the circumstances, be it good or bad. You're seemingly doing so well at only 5mg is it? Seems a decent place to hold for now

[Alex3]

@Bestill Hello there, may I ask, you appear to be doing a micro/brass taper as well?

[Bestill]

@Faure My cycle and weather change are my biggest enemies right now and I’m dealing with both at the moment.  Like the perfect storm.  When it was getting cooler, I was doing a lot better.  
 

I am glad you are feeling more at ease.

 

@Alex3  I am doing the brass monkey, sorta.  I taper very slowly and not every week.  I was doing 3% ever two weeks but now I’m going to try 5% and hold longer (like 3 weeks).  If it doesn’t work, I will go back to the 3%.  I’m getting tired of the constant decreasing.  I always listen to my body however, it’s still slower than I would prefer but it is what it is.  
 

I have a family to take care of and I work so I have to be functional.  🙂 There are moments when it’s not good but it always passes.  I will have to take a look at your profile.
 

 

[Faure]

Well, I think what I was experiencing last time I posted was a combination of WD and also a change of diet. I went from eating mostly vegetarian to binging on meat for several days. I’ve gone back to eating mostly vegetarian!  I have some meat left and will just have it 1-2x a week.  I really did feel like a change from a veggie diet but it probably wasn’t a good idea to do it all at once!

 

I woke up a week ago today feeling like myself again so I decided to carry on with the taper. And then I had a breakthrough in that I could do more ☺️☺️☺️ It was a week off work and I had such a lovely time. 
 

It’s a lovely autumn day and I’m off for a 3k walk in a bit. I think I am finally ready for a bit more than rest, work and a small amount of socialising / exercise ☺️
 

It’s interesting, this is the 2nd time I’ve had a bit of a hard time followed by a breakthrough.

[almuPA]

Hello @Faure,

 

It is good that you found out why you were having a wave. There are so many things that can affect us in this state that sometimes it feels like we cant relax! But as you said so wisely, we need to understand that this our life now and we need to make a priority taking care of ourselves, and there is nothing wrong about it. 

But yeah, I've found the hard way that if I dont take care properly of my diet, it has a bad effect in my symptoms. I dont know if one day I will be able to eat or do whatever I want without thinking in WD, but for the moment is ok like this. 

 

On 10/31/2022 at 9:01 AM, Faure said:

It’s a lovely autumn day and I’m off for a 3k walk in a bit. I think I am finally ready for a bit more than rest, work and a small amount of socialising / exercise

 

The walk sounds lovely! And it is goog to read that you are feeling like doing more. 

I've read in previous posts that you were having trouble sleeping. I hope that has improved, too. 

 

I send you a big hug. 

[Faure]

Thanks for your kind support @almuPA. I’ve had a good week, I’m starting to feel like my old self again.  How are you?

[almuPA]

On 11/4/2022 at 8:49 PM, Faure said:

I’ve had a good week, I’m starting to feel like my old self again.  How are you?

 

That sound great! So happy for you! Can I ask, just if you want to answer, how did you feel the changes?

 

I m doing better but still struggeling, thanks for asking.

 

Hope to hear more good news from you soon😄