Faure: mirtazapine withdrawal

[Faure]

On 11/14/2022 at 12:45 PM, almuPA said:

That sound great! So happy for you! Can I ask, just if you want to answer, how did you feel the changes?

@almuPA Occasionally I feel happy. I haven’t felt actual happiness for a few years. I’ve been content / ok, but not actually felt the feeling. I have more energy. I can do more work, more socialising, more exercise. I am a bit more flexible (not much!) and also tolerant with close friends / family. I can cope more easily with things that life throws up, without getting too stressed or worried it’s going to make me really tired. I also don’t get that bone tired feeling after doing a lot that I had for about 2-3 years when the only thing I could do was sit on the sofa for days on end till I recovered. Because of that I have been very careful not to got too tired. But sleep actually makes a difference now. I feel refreshed most mornings. I don’t have the energy I had before, but I think it is gradually returning. 
 

Sorry to hear you are still struggling. I hope you start to get some relief very soon 🤞

I was just logging on to say that tonight, like every night, I put my pill out to take at 8.45. It was between two glasses on the table by the sofa and I thought “I must be careful I don’t knock that pill off”.  Anyway after my TV dinner I looked for the pill, couldn’t find it.  I thought “I must have knocked it off, I’ll just get another one later”. Then I remembered last time I accidentally took a double dose. It was awful, about 3 weeks later, I had the most dreadful week and could not have worked. (Fortunately it was a holiday).  So I thought I must not do that again, I need to find the pill.  I got everything by the sofa out, went through it, including a bag of balls of wool. I pulled the heavy sofa out, I cleaned and dusted and hoovered. No sign of the pill. Cleaning at night - awful 😂😂😂
 

So I have concluded that I could well have taken it without realising. I hope so, because I don’t know where else it could be!  Much better to miss a day, if that’s what this is and the pill is still lost, than to take a double dose. I’ll be more careful in future 🙄

 

[Bestill]

Hey lady!  I saw on another post that you got a bad cold that knocked you off your feet.  I had the same thing myself.  I am 2 weeks into this thing already and tho it’s getting better and things are draining, I seem to be in and out of waves.  Did you still continue with your taper?  I have been holding for 4 weeks already and the goal was to start tapering again come the 1st.  I’m not really suffering but really uncomfortable with air hunger being the worse per usual.

 

Otherwise I hope you are doing well!  You have to be pretty low in your taper now.  
 

❤️

[Faure]

Hey @Bestill, thanks for dropping by. I have had the most awful cold, it’ll be two weeks on Monday and I have slowly been recovering for the past few days. Still not back to normal. It happened when I was on holiday with my mum and scheduled to switch to a new brand of pill during a two week hold. I took what I though was all the pill stuff in case of any problems and then when I looked I’d forgotten the pharmacy pills 🤣🤣🤣 so I had to go ahead with the switch using the pills I’d made up for that. Fortunately it was very smooth, no issues at all which I was very pleased with given my mum was so ill she took to bed for the entire time we were away! We were rescued and brought home by my dad and a friend of mine!
 

So all is well, slowly recovering, no ill effects from tapering which will continue on schedule come Monday. I’ll be at 3.6mg Monday and after a couple of cycles on the new brand I’ll switch to liquid so I can measure the lower doses more accurately. 
 

Sorry to hear you’ve had to hold for a while and still have the air hunger. Hope you feel ready to go again before too much longer. I was thinking of you recently so will pop over to your thread now for an update ☺️

[Bestill]

Crossing over to liquid makes me nervous but if it’s something I will have to eventually do, I will need help.  My goal is to taper all the way down with weighing.  Who knows.

 

Im on week 3 of this cold now.  Drainage mostly but we are getting there.  I’m proud to say I have taken nothing for it.  I am not sure I could have done it if it wasn’t for all the aches and pains from tapering.  Hoping to come back better.

 

I cut a little yesterday but going to cut a little more tonight to bring me to 5.5.  I am going to try and cut 5% at a time and hold a little longer so I have more of a break.  A little nervous.

 

Im so happy that you are in the 3’s.  That is my biggest goal right now.  I don’t care about being at half my original dose.  It’s all about getting to the 3’s.  Everyone seems to talk more highly of being there and I hold onto that hope for myself as well.

 

I will do an update soon, but I want to see how this next cut goes.  
 

Happy New Year!!

[Faure]

Quote

16 hours ago, Bestill said:

Crossing over to liquid makes me nervous but if it’s something I will have to eventually do, I will need help.  My goal is to taper all the way down with weighing.  Who knows.

 

I know, switching to a liquid is daunting. Fortunately I have a mathematician for a friend who sorted out the cross over to the different brand, has done the BrassMonkey slide for the new brand of pills and will also do the liquid spreadsheet for me. I’m sure I can share the spreadsheet when the time comes, hopefully he’ll do one that doesn’t took terrifying!! (He just did one like that but fortunately set a print area for the part I need to print and work with!!!)

 

I took some paracetamol when I had a temperature as it really helped and fortunately I am not so sensitive to medications now I have been stable for so long. Just keep plodding on slow and steady, you will get there. I am certainly feeling more like my old self and until very recently would have found it really hard to look after my mum while I was so ill myself.  
 

Hope the cold abates soon. We are certainly all full of colds round here and Covid is having a nasty spike in my area. I’m going to wear a mask again when I go back to school next week. Fortunately I just do 1:1 teaching so I won’t have to endure judgmental looks from other staff, the children don’t mind at all about me wearing a mask. 
 

Happy new year to you too ☺️

[almuPA]

Happy New Year, dear @Faure.

Hope you are feeling better from your cold and you have a good comeback to work.

On 12/31/2022 at 1:32 PM, Faure said:

I’m going to wear a mask again when I go back to school next week.

I had the same idea😊

[Faure]

On 12/30/2022 at 2:29 PM, Faure said:

So all is well, slowly recovering, no ill effects from tapering which will continue on schedule come Monday. I’ll be at 3.6mg Monday and after a couple of cycles on the new brand I’ll switch to liquid so I can measure the lower doses more accurately. 

Having said the switch went smoothly, which it did, now on day 7 of 100% of the new brand I’ve had some low level anxiety for a couple of days. I suspect the new brand has a lower concentration of active ingredient (mirtazepine) as I had a few WD symptoms on days 4&5 of 100%. I decided to do a hold this week so hopefully the low level anxiety will dissipate over the next few days. Going back to work after the Xmas holiday later this week should help, it usually takes my mind off how I’m feeling provided I don’t feel too bad. 

[j1290]

@Faure

Hey there, I saw you post elsewhere so I followed over to your intro.  I'm on Bupropion myself, but  I saw a big difference between generics effects on me.  I finally found a pharmacy that lets me select the manufacturer and I pay out of pocket(it's cheap) so I have a steady supply.  

 

I was always told they were the same, but that wasn't the case for me.   

 

Can I ask you a question?  How are your side effects now that you're down to the smallest doses?  Specifically, have they lessened or do they have the same intensity they had at higher doses?   

 

 

[Faure]

On 1/5/2023 at 9:32 PM, j1290 said:

Can I ask you a question?  How are your side effects now that you're down to the smallest doses?  Specifically, have they lessened or do they have the same intensity they had at higher doses?   

Hello, thanks for coming over to say hi! I’m settling onto the different generic now. I’ve decided to do a 2nd week’s hold before starting tapering again as I don’t feel ready to ‘go again’ yet.

 

To answer your question I’m very pleased to say that the side effects are very much reduced. On the full dose, after reinstatement following a failed taper, I was very fatigued and couldn’t do much at all other than work very limited hours and rest. As the dose reduced my energy levels slowly and steadily increased. Nothing dramatic, just a steady, snail speed improvement.  I also found my ups and downs much reduced and emotionally I became more stable. I was also able to cope more easily with the things life throws at you. So yes, side effects reduce with the dose reduction. I think that happens for many people, I’ve seen mods say the same thing ☺️

 

How are you getting on? I see you’ve only recently started your taper. I’ll pop over to look at your thread ☺️
 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Faure

[Faure]

I started my taper again this week, after a 4 week hold, the first 9 days of which were switching to the new brand, the other 19 days were needed to get used to it. There were no major effects from the switch, some low level anxiety and I just knew I didn’t feel ready to start tapering again till this week. 
 

Day two of the first week back tapering and I feel super duper! I even woke up raring to go which is very rare!!  It’s my day off work today which I have needed very much the last few years. I’ve been busy this morning but will force myself to rest for the rest of the day as I’ve three days coming up with no opportunity for resting!  Onwards and upwards. I’ll do two more cycles of tapering then, all being well, I’ll start the switch to making a liquid for the lower doses. 
 

I’m very grateful for this website and all the support I’ve received to get me this far ☺️

Edited January 18, 2023 by Faure

[Faure]

I switched to making my own liquid last week with no problems.  I’m thinking of switching to 5% every 2 weeks or 10% every four weeks as I now get minimal WD effects (sometimes it takes up to a hour or two to get to sleep, that’s about it) and I’d like to speed things up if I can. My back is really suffering from all the rest I need and I feel like it can’t take another 2-3 years of sitting on the sofa.  
 

Any advice / thoughts @brassmonkey?

[brassmonkey]

Try not to rush things, if speeding things up catches up with you it can take a very long time to get back on track.

 

Check out videos on line for "chair yoga for pack pain". Start slow and easy and build up over several weeks. It has really helped mine.

[Faure]

11 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Try not to rush things, if speeding things up catches up with you it can take a very long time to get back on track.

 

Check out videos on line for "chair yoga for pack pain". Start slow and easy and build up over several weeks. It has really helped mine.

OK, I’ll plod on. Thank you for replying and holding me back. It’s so frustrating it’s taking so long but I am building a very successful business as I recover and it would be devastating for all that to fall apart. 
 

I’m googling the videos you suggest. I also made an appointment with the physio so hopefully that will help as well. 

[Faure]

@RKroos, you sent me the following message, please note I am unable to reply to private messages so I will reply here:

 

Quote

Hello, I saw your message about how you are decreasing Mirtazapine with the BrassMonkey slide method. I am applying a similar method inspired by Blassmonkey, it consists of 3% every 10 days, giving a total of 9% per month but without breaks.

So far, it seems to be going well for me and it seems that with mirtazapine the little jumps are more important than anything.

I would like to know how you have been doing recently with this method and how you are. I am currently on 4.35 mg.

I am doing very well with this method. As you will see from my thread my energy levels are slowly and steadily increasing and my mood became much more stable just a few months into the taper. I am able to exercise gently a couple of times a week, I walk to work for 20 minutes 3 days a week and I am gradually increasing my workload from very part time to something a bit more like part time!

 

I recently switched to making my own liquid and with some help from a friend now find this easy. It is recommended at the lower doses as this increases the accuracy of the dosing. You will need to consider this soon yourself. 
 

BrassMonkey always strongly suggests sticking to this method exactly, including the two week holds which give the body a chance to catch up with the drops. For the first 18 months or so of the taper I really needed these. Now I don’t feel I need them as much but, as BrassMonkey said just above recovering from a crash can take a very long time and lead to much life disruption so, as frustrating as I find this, and while I probably ask if I can speed up every six months or so, the answer is always no and I always stick to his method because things are going well and I don’t want them to go wrong.  
 

I couldn’t find your thread, please do create one (if you don’t have one) if you have further questions to ask. 

 

[RKroos]

I am glad you are well, we are in similar situations because I also create my own homemade liquid, I have been using it for 4 months.

I have also felt better and feel more stable. I think the secret to mirtazapine (and many others) is small jumps, apparently 10% big jumps is too much, even if you rest a lot between jumps. The explanation for this seems to be in the "occupation" of the receptors, I don't know anything about biochemistry but I was able to understand more or less what it is about.

The secret of everything is the small jumps. 2% or 3% ideal. (This is key if you are on doses less than 7.5mg)

Greetings and I hope you are well.

[almuPA]

How are you doing, dear @Faure?

Thinking of you.

[Faure]

Ups and downs but the downs tend not to last too long. So overall I’m pretty good thanks.  As of yesterday I’m on 20% of my original dose ☺️

[Faure]

Whenever I accidentally take a bit too much home made liquid mirtazepine (when I first started with the liquid I made an error or two) I find I wake up the next day having had a horrible nightmare. About 10-14 days later I spend the day exhausted. I’ve had a couple of mornings in the past two weeks when I had a nightmare and now I’m having an exhausted day and have had to cancel work 🙁such a pain. 

 

I think I have got the hang of making sure I stir the liquid really well to make sure all doses are consistent. I’m really really meticulous with that now (I’m already meticulous weighing the right amount of powder for the liquid).  
 

But I never had this issue when I just made up powder pills. I prefer powder, it didn’t have these issues. It’s a bit of a worry that this happens. I really hope I’m not going to become unstable. 

[Mcat]

I get nightmares on Mirt, too - anything over 7.5, and I get bad dreams; when I went up to 15mg I had ghoulish dreams. On 7.5, I seem to dream a lot, and sometimes the dreams are disturbing, but not nightmares. Do you have the option to get the liquid compounded? I wonder if the chemist technique might make the liquid taper a smoother ride. I plan to switch to compounded liquid when I get further down. 

[Faure]

Thanks @Mcat, I’m feeling much better. I think it was a combination of totm, an unusually busy week, and possibly Covid.  My close friend has tested positive for it and I was so tired last week maybe I had it without realising…..I always blame the taper when I feel bad!  Fortunately, said friend always points this out and says it’s unlikely to be the taper. He’s usually right 😂😂😂. Today I’ve been swimming and done some cleaning so I’m certainly not feeling tired anymore! 

 

I don’t want to switch to liquid from the chemist. It only lasts about 3 weeks and I am very sensitive to changes in brand. I already had to switch in January because my usual brand had been unavailable for months. I lost 2 weeks waiting to adjust to it 🙄

[Chompoo]

@Faure it seems like a constant battle with insomnia, tiredness and bad dreams, whether on Mirtazepine or off it. I feel the same. I hope you didn't get Covid? Please take care and wishing you a good week ahead.

[Faure]

Thanks @Chompoo I did a covid text the other day, it was negative so that’s good, especially as I’m going away for a week tomorrow. 
 

Update to my thread:

 

Over a year ago I started doing Body Balance (yoga & tai chi) at home to a video. I have done this for over a year to help build strength & flexibility. I never did get through a whole session but about half of one!  After an event where I found how weak my body had got I bought free weights and am now doing Body Pump at home to a video!  I used to love Body Pump!  So I’m planning to spend the next year slowly building up all the strength that has been lost the past few years. I did my first go today and, having only expected to get through the warm up if I was lucky, I got through the 2nd track too!  A whole 10 minutes!  So I’m pretty pleased about that ☺️ Looking forward to the next go when I’ll try the next track as well ☺️☺️☺️

[Chompoo]

@Faure it's great you are making an effort to exercise, and taking it slow. It's crazy how weak withdrawals can make our bodies, isn't it? I'm walking on the treadmill for 30 mins a day. Anything more than that and my histamines act up, causing stabbing pains in the body. Enjoy your exercises!

[Mcat]

I also do a 30 min walk most days, plus yoga or qigong and meditation. I honestly don't know how I ever coped without it (I started this routine well before AD, but it's going to another level now that I realise I have to take responsibility for managing my stress and anxiety better. @Faure - can I ask why you switched from the capsules to the liquid at just over 3mg? I'd have thought, given the pill weight, you'd be able to stick with the powder/capsule routine until you get a bit lower. 

[Faure]

Quote

can I ask why you switched from the capsules to the liquid at just over 3mg? I'd have thought, given the pill weight, you'd be able to stick with the powder/capsule routine until you get a bit lower. 

 
Because at these low weights the scales are less accurate and accuracy is highly important. This way I weigh 4 or 5 days worth of powder in one go, mix with a certain amount of water (I can tell you more about that when time time comes) and draw up a certain amount which contains my daily dose.  It’s actually way simpler than fiddling about measuring 7 pills! I think I’m finally getting the hang of making liquid after 6 weeks.  The mixing and measuring of water threw me a bit at first and my good friend had to come over to instruct me, but it’s easy now. ☺️ I can help with this when the time comes - no need to pay for an expensive liquid. 

[Mcat]

Thanks for the explanation and the offer of help when I get there. What's the cut-off point where the powder/capsule routine is considered less stable? I was hoping to get down to 2mg or less before dealing with the liquid.

[Bestill]

@Mcat I just wanted to chime in.  I’m at 4.8 and plan on going all the way down in pill form without switching over to liquid. I know some have gone down to 1 mg and then switched over.  It really is up to you.  I will obviously see how I react as I get lower so who knows.  I will never say never but right now I’m good where I’m at and will continue.  It’s such a wild ride, really.

 

You are in good company if you need help down the road because I will be asking @Faure for support if need be too. 😉

[Mcat]

Hi @Bestill - thanks for your input. Yes, I was hoping to get down to 1mg before switching, but we'll see how things go. Long way from that at this point. And nice to have a little Mirt club going You're ahead of me: I've just dropped my first 10% from 7.5 to 6.75: so far, so good. I'll check your thread as I'm interested to know how you're tracking with sleep (my biggest concern and my most hellish WD symptom when I tried to come off previously).

[Faure]

Ladies, I hate to break it to you but I’m afraid you will need to switch to liquid at some point to ensure accuracy. The scales become less reliable at the lower weights and my scientific friend looked into it and advised around 3mg was the right place to switch. The switch was very smooth and I’d say it took one cycle to get the hang of making the liquid. I’m fairly confident about it now, until I have a little wave (I only get small ones), then I always blame the pills, whatever form I take them in!! I think usually it’s just life & doing too much that gets to me, not the taper at all really. 
 

I think I actually prefer making the liquid as it’s quicker and I only have to fiddle about with the weighing once per session. But I did get very competent at making pills and it was difficult to switch methods, again my friend supported me with the liquid. He had at least two visits to help me! 
 

@Bestill @Mcat

[Gigi68]

Hi Faure, I’ve used homemade liquid since the beginning of my taper. It’s so easy and gives me a lot of control over the amount of my drops. I’m on such a tiny dose now, I can’t imagine trying to weigh that amount of pill. You will be so glad you did this. 

[Bestill]

There are people I have talked to who unfortunately Could not switch over to liquid and did it by cutting all the way down. So it is possible.  I didn’t say it would be smooth sailing.  😉

 

There is also a woman that doesn’t recommend going to liquid form who helps people get off antidepressants because she doesn’t feel that the liquid is accurate. Everyone will have an opinion and will do what’s best for them.  Like I said, never say never.  And I will say the majority do go to liquid. ❤️
 

@Faure if you feel like it’s been easier to do, that is promising for a lot of us who haven’t taken that route yet.

did you post your method and how you did the transition above?

 

 

[Faure]

I have posted my method for making my own liquid here. ☺️

Edited April 10, 2023 by Faure

[Faure]

I tried combining two weeks drops in one last night so dropping 0.2mg instead of 0.1mg. Took about 4 hours to get to sleep 🙄 hopefully won’t take as long tonight. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for things to settle down. If it takes longer than 2-3 nights I’ll probably ditch this idea and stick with the slide but I wanted to see if I could handle a bigger drop. 

[Mcat]

I have a question for you @Faure, @Bestill and other Mirt taperers. Mirt is famous for increasing appetite and weight gain, and I put on about a stone on it. I started to lose weight during my failed discontinuation earlier in the year, but having reinstated, I'm now piling what I lost back on (and it wasn't that much loss - I was still quite a way from my starting weight). 

 

I've only just started my taper, but I'm curious to know from those further down the track than me now on lower doses if the weight has started dropping (assuming you gained). 

 

I'm hoping I won't have to wait till I'm completely off to see some benefit on this front, but I do that as well as increasing appetite, Mirt also changes your metabolism, and I don't know if that effect gets lesser as you go down or not. 

[Bestill]

@Mcat my weight has fluctuated.  Last year around this time I started to retain water and it was about 10 lbs and then it came off.  I go from having a healthy appetite to not having one at all so I never really gained weight.  I do feel puffy and I’m dealing with cravings right now.  It seems to be going away tho and when I’m craving sweets, I eat fruit.  Im pretty sure when im off, more weight will come off too.  I know many who lost a lot of it when they were off.  Like it literally fell off of them.  
 

I just try to focus on the fact that my body is going through one big healing journey and to embrace the many changes it will go through even when it’s a pain and I don’t feel that great in my skin.  It’s only temporary.

[Faure]

I’m very lucky with my weight, it is something I have never had to worry about. On mirtazepine I did put on a small amount (not enough to bother me) which is falling off as I have been tapering. I notice it most through doing my belt up a notch tighter!