Andhara: Hoping to be St. John's Wort Free

[Andhara]

Howdy, everyone, I'm Maia. 

 

33 years old, severe trauma history, but doing pretty well regardless. Got married to the love of my life a couple years ago, and with enough healing from trauma I was able to go back to graduate school for something I loved. I'm now 3/4 through the program, doing well, but...and this is a big but...

 

TERRIFIED to come off the St. John's Wort I went on in June 2018. It was a tough time for me. I left my entire life, everything I knew, in late 2016, after literally fleeing an abusive relationship that left me without possessions and almost entirely without income. It came with a huge silver lining - falling in love with a longtime friend - but left me incredibly retraumatized and with my nervous system in a wretched state. I've always been sensitive. I fell into what I eventually recognized to be clinical depression, because of course my poor overworked system had just cortisol'd all it could cortisol, and was just like "nope." 

 

Since I'm a damn hippie, and have a super-sensitive system (gluten-intolerant, can't even take cough meds for more than a few doses because I will literally get high - paradoxically, I glug coffee and wine like it's nothing) when it comes to meds, I searched high and low for a "natural" solution. Tried rhodiola rosea, magnesium, L-theanine, a few others before settling on a high-quality formulation of St. John's Wort (Perika). The other herbs helped with anxiety, but not with the depression. St. John's Wort HELPED with the depression. Within a few days I was like a damn Disney princess, I was so happy. I literally felt like singing all the time. 

 

No problem, right? Unfortunately, wrong...because I will pretty much experience any side effect if I have the opportunity to do so. ;) Despite being on only 1/3 the recommended dose (typical dose is 900 mg, I'm on 300 mg), I have extreme light sensitivity. I have to turn down my computer brightness so low that no one else can read it. I have to have my word processor be in black on black, and I have to wear thick sunglasses and a sunhat even when it's overcast outside. This from a mixed-race sun worshipper who wasn't even a little bit like this before. 

 

Then I read the studies that talked about long-term eye damage from the Wort, and I began to get scared. Unfortunately a 4-week taper this summer left me literally suicidal and self-harming, so I reinstated and tried a much much slower taper. Got down to 200 mg that way, but was still tweaky and anxious (not a state I like to be in when interfacing with grad-school mentors and students - I am doing super well in the program and don't want to "go there" and ruin it), and the eye things got WORSE because I had to taper using an inferior liquid formulation with higher concentrations of hypericin.

 

I need to have hope that I can get off of this crap and not go blind at 40....and also thrive. Because that's what I've been doing is thriving, and I don't want to lose that. I've seen a couple St. John's threads on here, but not a lot with follow-through...and I'm also posting here because in my probably 50+ hours of internet research into this topic, I haven't seen a ton of St. John's specific material. Thus I'll read the pharmaceutical threads endlessly and spin myself up about how horrible withdrawals will be. Adding the St. John's material in the hopes that I can contribute to the internet archive, and someone will see me in their own situation! 

 

Would greatly appreciate any other stories and experiences. <3 

[Gridley]

Welcome to SA, Andhara.

 

This thread about tapering St. John's wort contains helpful information.

Tapering St. John's wort - Tapering - Surviving Antidepressants

At what rate did you taper the second time?  Since that worked fairly well but still with too many symptoms, you could use that as a guide and slow down from there.  For regular psychiatric drugs, we recommend tapering by no more than 10% of current dose every four weeks.  

 

 http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1024-why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/

 

If that's too fast, an alternative is the Brassmonkey slide taper, which is four weekly 2 1/2% cuts followed by a two-week hold.

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

What is the form of St. John's wort are you taking?  Tablet?  The switch to a liquid (and an inferior one at that) likely exacerbated your withdrawal.  It would be better to taper using the form you're taking now, so you're making only one change at a time.  Many members weigh tablets using the AWS Gemini 20 scale available on Amazon.

 

Using a digital scale to measure doses

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Please research all supplements first and only add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

This is your Introduction topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members.  Again, welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

[Andhara]

Hi Gridley, 

 

Thanks for your reply! The second time around, I got a regular tincture of St. John's Wort and decreased by 16 mg (one drop) per week. So that was 284 mg one week, 268 the next, etc. It was honestly not a bad taper and I was still sleeping, if feeling a wee bit low and sensitive, but I got brave right before quitting and went down 2 drops because I felt like I was "behind" for having stayed at one level for 2 weeks straight. That was the week I was feeling tweaky and anxious (honestly, mostly because a new semester was on the horizon, and I get very anxious about each new semester no matter what level I'm at. I have a sensitive nervous system and never relish 70-hour weeks). One thing I noticed on my last taper was a heightened sensitivity: e.g. one beer would make me decidedly anxious, when I'm usually not that sensitive to alcohol or caffeine. 

 

I agree that a very slow taper needs to happen, with plenty of support from Magnesium, B-vitamins, GABA, etc. (I take all of the above). My current dilemma is indeed the easily measurable liquid vs. the high-quality formulation I'm on now. Thank you for the scale recommendation!! I'll have to see how "crushable" my tablets are currently, as they have a brown outside coating and seem to be sticky (more plant matter) inside rather than powdery. Thankfully they're only $12 per 60-count bottle, so I have room to play around even on my grad-student budget. 

 

Will report back with how this process goes! Alternatively, has anyone tried shaving bits off pills with an ultra-fine cheese grater and weighing them? 

[Gridley]

13 hours ago, Andhara said:

has anyone tried shaving bits off pills with an ultra-fine cheese grater and weighing them? 

Shaving pills then weighing is also fine.

[mustafa]

Hello @Andhara, I read your thread about st John's wort taper.

I hope your taper goes smooth and fine.

Don't worry about getting support, we are all with you and understand whatever you will complain from and I hope you have no complaint at all.

Wish you a good life♥️.

[Andhara]

Hey everyone, 

 

Just a brief update! I've been cutting tiny chunks off my 300mg pill for about a week now (I can't afford the microgram scale yet, so I'm just eyeballing it, but it looks to be about 1/10th of the pill). So far this is an interesting experience! The posts here that detail ruined lives spooked me so damn bad - I have anxiety, go figure - that I was almost completely sleepless on a night when I shaved enough off my pill to pretty much only ding the outer coating, and through this experience I wised up to something. It's the FEAR of the withdrawal effects that has been producing almost all withdrawal effects in me to date. LOL. Of course. I have no doubt that withdrawal even from St. John's Wort is real, but I've been making it much worse than it needed to be especially at the beginning.

 

During this sleepless night, I fell down an additional research rabbit hole of low-carb diets and their emotional benefits. I saw many stories of folks who have been able to get off other long-standing medications, and also many stories of journeys toward emotional regulation through low-carb diet. Since I've had phenomenal emotional results in the past from low-carb diets, I decided to give this a go (my husband is 100% on board and is honestly doing most of the cooking! He's a keeper) concurrent with my taper and see what happens. 

 

So far so good! I feel just a tiny twinge of "low"ness, emotional "gray"ness, and colorlessness right when I get up (at the furthest point from my last dose), but other than I'm doing great. Not only that, but I took this first big step down WHILE on PMS and DURING finals week. Woohoo! I never do anything halfway. Anyway, so far mindfulness techniques work fantastically for the brief moments of sadness, and my biggest challenge is not to extrapolate from these brief moments (omg! I'm feeling a little "down" and "blah"! OMG! Is this my new life? Am I going to lose all ability to love and laugh? How terrible! Ugh!) and freak out over everything. 

 

Often I feel MORE emotional, but not in a bad way. I was ruminating a bit on my complicated relationship with my mother due to the fact that I'd seen some social media posts she hadn't intended for my eyes on how she wanted to be a grandma. I am childfree and was always a "weird" kid that I could tell she didn't identify with or like very much. I was kvetching a little over what exactly she would WANT to happen if she were a grandmother (I am an only child)- would she suddenly want to interact with me? Would she think I would pop out someone more like her? Would she actually be around instead of generally being neglectful and dismissive? Then my thoughts took an abrupt turn toward compassion for her experience - she would want me to enter a realm of experience that she could share with me - she was craving connection. I was just crying in my car to myself telling her I loved her and I understood. Overall it was an experience that brought me closer to compassion and understanding for others, which as a Buddhist I feel is a huge boon. Before tapering down my dose it is likely that I would have brushed off the original "slight" with a more "meh" reaction and not gone through this mini emotional journey in the first place.

 

If, by not numbing my emotions, I learn how to manage them more effectively, that is a wonderful path and not one I want to shy away from. I feel like I have a lot of tools and maturity that I didn't have 2 years ago when I started St. John's, so I have a lot of hope for the future. 

 

OH! Last but not least - while I still have eye floaters, I am experiencing way fewer moments where I am physically hurt by ambient light levels outside LOL. Even driving at night, I am not blinded by others' tail lights. The eye floaters feel 100000% more manageable when I'm not literally allergic to any light in my environment, even artificial light. And this is just from a tiny-ass dose reduction. I am very hopeful about a continued decrease in light sensitivity!

 

Compassion to everyone here going through difficult journeys...I must refrain from participating in the community at large, since the only effect it has had on me is to spin me up like a top over how impossible this journey will be for me, but I will continue to keep this chronicle here for others and for myself. 

[Andhara]

Update again!! Woo!

 

So, a few days after my last post, I saw a holistic nutritionist and talked to her about my plan (specifically geared toward getting off of St. John's Wort). She was on board, but recommended that I be in full ketosis for a month (sans alcohol) before I changed my St. John's dose. Give the body only one thing to adapt to at once, and all that. She also strongly recommended Rhodiola Rosea as a natural mood booster that would not have these side effects or be habit-forming, and gave me a couple studies to back this up. 

 

So I went back up to 300mg for 3 more weeks, and readied my next master plan muwahahaha! Here's what that is: 

 

- Neatly switching half of my St. John's dose for Rhodiola Rosea for AT LEAST one month before I taper further down from 150mg.

- Staying on a lazy keto diet (very low carb - < 50 carbs/day with one small dose of rice or sweet potatoes every 3-4 days) WITHOUT alcohol for honestly forever. Once I'm not withdrawing I will add the occasional glass of champagne to see how it feels.

- A supplement regimen focusing on adaptogens: see below

 

My supplement regimen during this period: 

 

Morning

 

- 150 MG St. John's Wort (half a pill, cut)

- 250 MG Rhodiola Rodea (one pill, half of daily recommended dosage)

- Turkey Tail mushroom (daily recommended dosage, Solaray brand, two capsules - not sure of specific MG!) - this is a huge immune booster and helps your gut naturally produce serotonin

- Omega 3 fish oil (NOW brand, one capsule)

- Electrolytes, usually containing Vit. C and Vit. B

- Probiotic, lactobacillus. It's a chewable wafer that needs refrigeration

 

Afternoon (3-4 PM)

 

- Ashwagandha, 1100 MG (I know this is a controversial one on this board, and agree that not everyone's systems tolerate it well, but I find it gentle and very effective, and most importantly, NOT habit-forming!)

 

Evening (10 PM, for a 12 AM - 1 AM bedtime)

 

- True Calm (NOW brand, 2 capsules) - this has GABA, B vitamins, Inositol, somethin' else?

- Magnesium Citrate (1000 MG - and yes, that is a lot, but what I've been taking for years! any brand from natural grocer's will do)

- 5HTP (50 MG, a very low dose). This is a new one, added in for the purposes of this transition. I felt that I needed it the first few days but not after that

- Various calming Yogi teas (there are a few of these, they're great)

 

I have been doing this for 8 days now, and feel ******* GREAT.

 

(Sorry about the swearing, just feeling very emphatic about it!) I think the keto diet is 10000000000% key. Not to encourage anyone to try something that will mess up their system, but for me this has really, really been the game changer. Seriously, just cut my dose in half with minimal withdrawal symptoms, and now I'm relatively stable and ready to kill this semester. There are a lot of testimonials on reddit if you like to read stuff like that, and a number of testimonials from individuals who were able to go off of meds that are no longer needed (even some, specifically, from individuals who wanted off meds but were floored by the severity of withdrawals until they got on this diet). 

 

I DID and DO have minor withdrawal symptoms even so, and I will detail them here:

 

- Slight nausea, loss of appetite, on days 5-7

- Diarrhea on days 5-7

- Internal shakiness, weird unmoored feeling, days 2-5

- Slight difficulty getting to sleep (and then sleeping until like noon, unlike me), days 1-4

- Headaches, days 3-8 (current). Minor and intermittent headache, easily taken care of w/ibuprofen

- Body aches, days 7-8 (current). Minor, intermittent; last night my legs and hips were hurting a bit but it didn't interfere with sleep

- Decrease in libido (TMI maybe) - ovulating currently, and still had sex with my husband but didn't feel "sexed up" and felt no desire to finish. I presume this will be temporary while my body works its way through this process

 

What I DID NOT GET:

 

- Any feeling or recurrence of depression

- Anxiety (yasssssss)

- Shame, despair (these are my PTSD companions, and have loved recurring through all these dose reduction attempts. Not this time)

 

Other positives: 

 

My brain is....clear. Just clear and functional. I'll have a thought that will often spool out some recurring anxiety, or say something kinda awkward, and instead I'll just think something like "It will work out," or "whoops, guess that comment fell flat," and....that will be it. That'll just be all. No rumination. Yesterday a stressful situation cropped up that would have caused me to be in a frothy crying panic ON the full 300mg of St. John's (a secondary university department being assholes about letting me enroll for a class I need to graduate this semester, and the class consequently filling up), and I still had a negative bodily reaction to this, such as a heart-pounding, low-feeling moment, but then I just wrote the emails I needed to write, owned it, and got it solved. Last evening I was more in a space of "even if I don't graduate this semester, I LOVE TAing and would be happy to work with my lovely students for another chill semester." That is really next-level for me, and I had that reaction while on only half of my happy drug, hah! I think I'm coming from a very empowered place, as opposed to a place of learned helplessness, and that feels really really good. (The situation worked out in the best possible way, BTW! I got into the class)

 

The best part of this process are these windows of honestly sublime clarity and well-being. These are even better than my best moments on a full dose of St. John's Wort. I am still kinda symptomatic, but it is so very manageable and I'm still quite functional. Not missing any work or any sleep, for that matter. I feel fortunate to have stumbled across a plan that works for me. 

 

 

 

[KenA]

Hi @Andhara

Just saw your thread about tapering off St John's Wort. That was also what I took, but I took it for almost 8 years. Unfortunately I didn't know any better and I CT quit taking it. That was almost 18 months ago now and I just wanted to let you know that I am doing very good now and I am completely drug free!! There is hope!! Glad to hear that you have a plan that is working for you!! That is awesome to hear!! 

 

Ken