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waverunner

Trav: trazodone question

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waverunner

I have a friend coming off Trazadone but she is having problems. I am thinking she is coming down too fast but I could be wrong. Dropped 100 mg in a 2 week period.

 

From what to what I don't know.

 

I'm looking for basic information and experiences to pass on to her.

 

On another board I used to help people coming down from benzos and z-drugs (sleeping pills) but I have no experience with AD's. I think you would have more knowledge here on AD's.

 

Thankyou ahead.

Edited by Altostrata
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Skyler

I have a friend coming off Trazadone but she is having problems. I am thinking she is coming down too fast but I could be wrong. Dropped 100 mg in a 2 week period.

 

From what to what I don't know.

 

I'm looking for basic information and experiences to pass on to her.

 

On another board I used to help people coming down from benzos and z-drugs (sleeping pills) but I have no experience with AD's. I think you would have more knowledge here on AD's.

 

Thankyou ahead.

 

Hi Wave.. pretty sketchy info, but you can give her the standard. Cut 10% of the previous dose, same as benzos, and hold for one month before taking another cut. A common dose of trazadone might be 200 mgs BID.. which is strictly guesswork for purposes of an example only. So a 100 mgs drop would be 25% which is too high. As many as 70% or more people coming off antidepressants run into significant issues with withdrawal that complicate further efforts to taper. Tapers that are too rapid can have devastating health consequences, so it would behove her to come on herself.

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Altostrata

Same deal, 10% cuts every month, listen to your body, if withdrawal symptoms show up (with trazodone, it's often rebound insomnia), go slower.

 

Initially, make a 10% reduction and hold there for a MONTH. It can take several weeks for withdrawal symptoms to emerge. Do that again the second month.

 

If you have very minor or no symptoms from these 2 reductions, you can try reducing by 10% every 3 weeks. Do that twice. If no problems, reduce by 10% every 2 weeks. Do that twice.

 

If no problems after 4.5 months of very gradual reduction, you may be able to reduce by 10% every week.

 

If significant withdrawal symptoms appear, go slower. Listen to your body.

 

It's best to go slowly to find out how you tolerate a reduction. Once you damage your nervous system with withdrawal symptoms, it can take a very long time to feel good again.

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Rhiannon

Hi waverunner.

 

It's a lot like tapering benzos, except that the withdrawal from ADs seems to follow a different pattern, and reinstatement is less of a crapshoot.

 

But basically, slow is best, no more than 10% cuts, and holding till you stabilize before cutting again.

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Nikki

Waverunner my daughter tapered Trazadone. It was a much smaller dose (sorry don't remember the amount) and she did it gradually and over time. Wasn't bad for her, taking it slowly.

When she went fast and took big drops she felt it and was up all night.

 

When she slowed down, she got off it and was fine.

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waverunner

Hi Schuyler, thanks for the info. You are doing 10%. Good. She will read this and post if she feels it necessary. I do appreciate you coming by.

 

Hi Alostrata, there you go. That's what she was getting. Bad rebound insomnia and another symptom. Thanks for the validation. I see it can take several weeks for withdrawal symptoms to emerge like benzos taking days to weeks, so many variables. Okay then. Thanks for being specific. Agreed with the possible compromising to the cns if too rapid.

 

Hi Rhi, 10%, hold till stabilize. Yes, less crapshoot than benzos and z-drugs if compromised, upon reinstatement for sure.

 

Hi Nikki, your daughter just came down too. Okay then. Too fast up all night, so slow and she came off.

 

I didn't come here to advertise but it's obvious you guys are aware of the challenges with benzos and z-drugs so if you don't mind I've added some information you may find find value in.

 

If anyone has big problems here with benzo and z-drugs and tapering using 10% as Ashton recommends that and only 2 weeks between cuts and that can be too rough for many; I am very active in that community and have a good friend who is site admin doing a micro daily taper for benzos, z-drugs after crossing over to valium. It fools the brain into thinking it's not losing benzo with the daily micro method. At the end of the month though, the reduction amount between the 2 can often be the same. Very individualistic as we all know.

 

So minute the reduction and it really lessens symptoms. NO cut and holds therefore MINIMAL symptom resurgence therefore so with some it makes for a very uneventful taper period. That's the prize right.

 

She specializes in reinstatement to taper as well and successful further out which in the past was pretty near impossible. She's really forged ahead to gain valuable info to pass forward to people in that arena that is incredibly helpful and based from science, and it works.

 

Getting people stabilized if they are in a bind is her specialty as well. Even if further out from a c/t or thinking they are going to be in tolerance while still on though tapering and it can't be fixed. She'll fix it.

 

She did a seminar recently in her state and have some docs aboard as they saw a miracle with a patient c/t'd and she brought her out and on her way. Now that patient is fully healed, in bad shape to start. Many LOSE symptoms coming down this way. Benzofreedom. Just FYI. And she does phone support. Very professional and the method was developed from experience. Of course people working with their doc on it. She's done a heck of a lot of work with and for people to make this deal easier.

 

These boards are so beneficial, I'm grateful for the knowledge here in cyberspace so many helping. :)

 

Alright, THANKYOU VERY MUCH for your input and insight everyone!!!

 

I was thinking it was the 10% rule every 2 weeks, but it's a bit different in that the hold to stabilize is longer. I have always found slower, is more beneficial and less stress to brain. Giving options as well if one feels they can, go a bit faster as you pointed out Alostrata. Again thanks for your breakdown . Nothing about tapering is a race is it? So it's good to see you guys post slow to aid the cns and brain. I'll keep sending people here for extra AD advice.

 

I really appreciate it. She will get much from reading this. Many will lol. She can gain a clearer understanding of why it got challenging for her.

 

You're all the best!!

 

Waverunner xoxo :)

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Altostrata

Thanks, waverunner.

 

We know something about benzo withdrawal here but we don't provide detailed support for it. It's always good to know another peer support group to refer people to.

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Skyler

Hi Alto, you might want to check this site out. I'm not sure it would qualify as strictly a peer site anymore. They are asking for money for the micro taper plan, called The Daily Reduction Taper, and my guess is there is a charge for phone support as well. I'm not against people making money helping folks withdraw, but this does not feel right. Just yesterday a post on Benzo Buddies was made to the effect Jana's Micro Taper had been hijacked without her permission, and is being sold on another site. Just an FYI

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Altostrata

Thanks, Schuyler.

 

benzofreedom might be a good support site but we don't promote any commercial ventures here.

 

The micro-taper principle is freely available here and on other sites.

 

waverunner, are you planning to post this information elsewhere?

 

If you do, please credit me and SurvivingAntidepressants.org.

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Nikki

Just curious...do benzo's come in liquid form?

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waverunner

Hi Alostrata, admin at benzofreedom is an activist getting the word out about the side effect etc., like myself. There is absolutely NO monetary gain for her. She was in bad shape and from her experiencing extreme physical symptoms like I had rendering non functional a long time, she is now making a difference. Her experience was her motivation. Wonderful family person and she has gotten the attention of the medical community where she is. I have a lot of respect for her.

 

Schuyler I know who you are referring too. Jana's method was not hijacked. On her own before being on Jana's site, admin of benzofreedom started a daily micro taper which pulled her out of a c/t. From that base she joined the site of which you are referring and helped. She had the same base to offer and they worked together with the daily micro taper. She tweaked her own taper she had long before she was on the site you mentioned, made it even more efficient and is NOT being sold on her new site where she moved as said. The information is given for free. She works like any other site. Free help online. And she added phone support to extend helping others. Which means free phone support. I used to help on Benzobuddies regularily. A few moderators there would even mention benzofreedom to their members to investigate if the micro daily amount might be suitable and be an option if they were having trouble. People were working together.

 

Jana is referring to benzofreedom. It's just unfortunate politics. There is NO charge for phone support on benzofreedom. NONE. Benzofreedom Admin is strong in values and integrity. Benzodiazipine and Z-drug withdrawal is NOT a business for her. I know her very well and she's helped many.

 

I take all of this very seriously. As do the people I am in contact with.

 

And Alstrato, I will absolutely credit you and survivingantidepressants.org if I do post this anywhere. As said, I am no longer active on boards per se but if something again comes up with someone needing info I will post your info accordingly if it requires me to be on another board. Absolutely.

 

I am sending you a pm in regards to something I am working on. As well, feel free to email her on her site to validate what I've said.

 

 

Nikki, Ativan (lorazepam) and Valium (diazepam) come in liquid form. Ativan is still very tricky to taper from in liquid form due to the short half life of 10 - 20 hours. Some can make it if they're not as dependent like anything else with these meds. It's typically easy to get interdose withdrawal if strongly dependent, between doses etc. Even if doses are split into equal amount 4 times a day. It's a nasty benzo. Of course Valium is the best to cross to and taper from with the half life of 50 - 100 hours and with it's active metabolite desmethyldiazepam that stretches valium's half life to 200 hours. I'm not a doctor therefore I not giving medical advice.

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Altostrata

waverunner, thank you for that clarification and your helpful posts on this site.

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Skyler

 

Schuyler I know who you are referring too. Jana's method was not hijacked. On her own before being on Jana's site, admin of benzofreedom started a daily micro taper which pulled her out of a c/t. From that base she joined the site of which you are referring and helped. She had the same base to offer and they worked together with the daily micro taper. She tweaked her own taper she had long before she was on the site you mentioned, made it even more efficient and is NOT being sold on her new site where she moved as said. The information is given for free. She works like any other site. Free help online. And she added phone support to extend helping others. Which means free phone support. I used to help on Benzobuddies regularily. A few moderators there would even mention benzofreedom to their members to investigate if the micro daily amount might be suitable and be an option if they were having trouble. People were working together.

 

Hi Wave.. thanks for your informative and generous response. The benzo community is difficult to navigate and Micro Tapering can be helpful.

 

~S

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waverunner

Well, thankyou back Alostrato. I can see you put a lot of work into this forum.

 

I spent time reading some of the abstracts and information in your "Journals and Scientific Sources" section when I was looking around and it's very organized here for members wanting to get informed. You so accurately put in the introduction, "harm reduction" philosophy. That's dead on isn't it. And I love Robert Whittaker as well.

 

You are quite welcome Schuyler. If you're not familiar with the benzo community it's hard to maneuver the boards for sure. Just like me entering your community. Sadly, in the last year and a half 4 benzo boards shut down. Admins are healed being the reason for 2 board shuts. They needed to get on with their life. I'm not sure what prompted the shut for the other 2 but one left an incredible resource of information for the public. Ray Nimmo's site benzo.org.uk has info from benzo tapering to the politics. Great for those who didn't realize what they were taking. Which is most people.

 

I always say it's a shame we all can't meet as there are wonderful people doing incredible things here in cyberspace.

 

I will continue sending people this site, from here and from "outside" that find they are having problems tapering AD's upon chosing to discontinue. Thankyou for making me feel comfortable as well. :) xoxo

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Rhiannon

Just curious...do benzo's come in liquid form?

 

Some of them do. You can also get almost any drug specially compounded in a liquid form from a compounding pharmacy, although your insurance might not pay for that.

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Rhiannon

I'm not very familiar with the benzofreedom site, but I do like micro tapers. I just hope there's some flexibility--even with micro tapers, one size never fits all.

 

(For example, milk is a good diluent for some benzos, but bad for others, and I don't think it should be promoted as the only right way.)

 

And it's just my natural tendency to shy away from any site that's dominated by one person's opinion or one person's method. So I've just never felt like delving into the benzofreedom site.

 

I would like to know more about admin's success with reinstatement and with helping people stabilize. I have always felt that this area is lacking on the other benzo boards. And it's a huge challenge. Maybe when I have some time (as if that's going to happen, ha!) I will read that forum.

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Skyler

(For example, milk is a good diluent for some benzos, but bad for others, and I don't think it should be promoted as the only right way.)

Rhi, Do you know where I could access information on this? I'd really like to know. From what I can see, BenzoFreedom is pretty much with milk as a diluent, but this could be for diazepam only. Is this what you would recommend as a solvent. What makes milk better than water in some cases? From what I read, there is pressure to follow the particular protocol, but the rate of reduction is guided by the emergence of withdrawal symptoms.

 

I would like to know more about admin's success with reinstatement and with helping people stabilize. I have always felt that this area is lacking on the other benzo boards. And it's a huge challenge. Maybe when I have some time (as if that's going to happen, ha!) I will read that forum.

 

The site claims to be very successful helping people reinstate, and taper without serious withdrawal symptoms. It would be great to see their data.

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waverunner

I'm not very familiar with the benzofreedom site, but I do like micro tapers. I just hope there's some flexibility--even with micro tapers, one size never fits all.

 

(For example, milk is a good diluent for some benzos, but bad for others, and I don't think it should be promoted as the only right way.)

 

And it's just my natural tendency to shy away from any site that's dominated by one person's opinion or one person's method. So I've just never felt like delving into the benzofreedom site.

 

I would like to know more about admin's success with reinstatement and with helping people stabilize. I have always felt that this area is lacking on the other benzo boards. And it's a huge challenge. Maybe when I have some time (as if that's going to happen, ha!) I will read that forum.

 

Hi Rhi!!

 

This will answer questions for you so you can understand fully this specific benzowithdrawal method is NOT "dominated" therefore "guided" by anybody's personal opinion.

 

The reason it's done this way is "guided" by COMPLETE SCIENCE. Science "dominates" her benzowithdrawal method unlike other sites. Science drives this method.

 

I can see you have an understanding of benzodiazipines so below is more information so you can better understand the "whys?" in why things are done with milk and the specific benzos used.

 

This is why I respect it. On mainstream boards, many members are guided by "you can do it" and "grit your teeth and bare it" and "suck it up" and this is NOT science.

 

I call it "getting cheerleaded through benzowithdrawal" which is done naively by those that do NOT understand the SCIENCE behind benzos, z-drugs, and how it changes the brain in order to take it successfully out of the brain so it can change back. Slowly.

 

They have NO understanding of the mechanism of action of the drug. And one needs to in order to help as this is very serious. "Harm reduction" as I read on this board is the accurate way to put it.

 

There has got to be flexibility in tapers to be truly beneficial for the person tapering. I couldn't more agree there is NO one size shoe fits all.

 

Her programs minute micro gets down to the smallest fraction of reduction that can be done. Tiny tiny minute if needed. The person can adjust daily, accordingly to find the smallest fraction and go from there to find a taper % of reduction.

 

Therefore they can tweak it more regularly due to daily micro tapering and more accurately in measure, BOTH, if they have a bump. Up or down.

 

And when it comes to the end of the taper this is adjusted as well so even LESS can come out when on the last mile because at the end one is on a small small % of drug daily. This is not done in other tapers. This a taper designed for optimum control of symptoms as it puts so little stress on the brain and central nervous system.

 

And Rhi, you are right about milk being a good dilutent for SOME benzos only.

 

As far as compounding pharmacies her method goes beyond that and this is why. When a person uses a compounding pharmacy you will STILL get flakes and bits in liquid. It's unavoidable.

 

With klonopin and valium they are the ONLY 2 benzos that are fat soluble. So they dissolve and bind evenly in whole milk. Period. When one takes the syringe to measure out the liquid, it's even.The amount drawn out of the solution is the same every time. This is not possible with the best compounding pharmacy and benzos.

 

I hope this clears up the "why milk?" for some a little bit more as well.

 

As well she doesn't use the other benzos to taper from being the half lives are just TOO SHORT, regardless if one could indeed get more accuracy compounding.

 

If one is not as dependent, any taper method is going to be easier isn't. It's so all genetics of the individual. I have found through my 2 years helping members, it's a great benefit for many. With Ashton's cut and hold they would still have breakthrough symptoms. Cutting and holding for 2 weeks, cutting a % and holding. Symptoms always come up, the cut severity in symptoms of course varying.

 

Minute daily reduction is SO much smoother coming down. So it works for those less dependent very well for that reason. No cut and holds. The cut and hold method is often referred to as the "cut and suffer" method because of the symptoms breaking through on the larger cuts made bi-weekly.

 

Daily life physically and mentally functional while tapering is the goal isn't it.

 

I have seen the more severe, level out and stabilize considerably when their reduction has been changed from the older cut and hold method, to the more manageable daily micro taper.

 

Hi Schuyler!!

 

You or anyone else can feel free to email her on her site and she would be more than happy to answer any more questions in regards to data etc.

 

As well you wrote: "From what I read, there is pressure to follow the particular protocol, but the rate of reduction is guided by the emergence of withdrawal symptoms."

 

As you can see I illustrated above why milk and not water and why certain benzos BOTH play a part in this.

 

"Accuracy of the liquid" being reduced daily is "equally" as important as the rate of reduction. A lot people miss that. So one can also see more specifically, the rate of reduction is ONLY ONE aspect guiding and preventing the emergence of withdrawal symptoms.

 

An equal fluid being drawn to reduce daily, has a huge influence as well. If you are drawing uneven particles, you will indeed, have more emergence of withdrawal symptoms. Your daily %, or if you're doing it bi-weekly % the rate reduction is always changing unbeknownst to the member tapering.

 

THIS is why she uses this system. It's work but once people have less symptoms, they don't mind preparing their mix. It's that much easier if strongly dependent on benzodiazipines or a z-drugs. All of the people I referred to her that were struggling with Ashton, had a MUCH easier time coming down doing daily for the reasons I listed above. It truly can be uneventful when done the right way. Can't even compare.

 

I have nothing but complete respect and admiration for Dr. Heather Ashton. I am just illustrating like anything over time, thankfully sometimes changes can be made to improve methods etc. That's all. :)

 

*There are many reasons why her reinstatements to taper are successful. Crossing to the longer life benzo after reinstating AND getting the right equivalency and more. HOLDING is essential and many are coached to "PUSH" through it upon reinstate. The brain has NO time to settle down.

 

Multiple dosing while holding. These are just a few. There are many collective reasons why she can pull a person out of a rapid taper, c/t, and inhumane detox etc when others can't.

 

Again, I'm not a doctor.

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Altostrata

We agree with micro-taper according to individual response, updosing if necessary, and holding to stabilize. All of those concepts are familiar here.

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waverunner

Same concepts.

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Trav

Hi All!

I thought I'd chime in here! I'm the friend that Waverunner spoke about! Thank you for all of your replies!! :D They are greatly appreciated!

 

As she said, I was on 300 mgs of Trazodone once daily (at night for sleep) for the last 5 years. I didn't think much of it until I tried to stop taking them! After jumping down 100 mgs all at once, I ran to Waverunner asking for her opinion!! LOL! I actually felt like I had taken some form of speed or something! I made it through that, but now know that I must take it much slower.

 

I'm feeling much more stable again, so I thought that in about one week I will be lowering my dose again, but thought I would only lower it by 50 mgs this time. Does this sound reasonable?

 

Thank you for all of your time and knowledge about these things!!

Trav

 

 

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Nikki

Hi Trav...

 

I told Waverunner that my daughter was on Trazadone for sleep. She wanted to get off of it and went too fast and had WD symptoms. Unpleasant. Somehow she managed to get off of it within a short time. Maybe a month. I was very pleasantly surprised that she was okay.

 

She may be an exception to the rule. I have a friend Britain who has had to take it very slow.

 

So there are both ends of the spectrum. For myself, I could not make a 50mg. drop from anything.

 

You may want to consider making your cuts alot smaller and waiting a good period of time in between these cuts to level out and hopeflly experience less symptoms.

 

Best Regards....

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Altostrata

We recommend 10% decreases per month, based on the last dose, to be on the safe side. Decreases should get progressively smaller in size, staying in the same 10% proportion.

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Marianne

I am new here looking for Trazodone info.

Wave runner's post about who invented microtapering caught my eye because I know the name. I searched the archives of the three sites. The archives were very interesting. Benzobuddies' former mod invented this in 2005. It was Jana. She refined it and patented it after leaving Benzobuddies in 2007. This Karen's site suddenly came on the scene in June 29 2011. Karen asked for Jana's help in 2010 and 2011. It's all there. It's cached permanently

BenzoMicroTaper is Jana's trademark.

There is more than that but that's enough. Buyer Beware.

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Altostrata

They're all wrong -- I invented micro-tapering!

 

Kidding aside, it's not a new concept -- but a very useful one.

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Trav

Hi All,

I thought it'd be a good time for an update - I did read the suggestions of dropping at a much slower rate and after thinking about it and my body's response to the other drops, I've only dropped 12.5 mgs. I did experience a bit of that lovely "speedy" feeling, but it calmed down after only a couple of days. I've been holding at that dose for the last 5 1/2 weeks, as things in life don't always allow us the time to do things on our schedule! Hubby tore a major muscle in his arm some and his being on warfarin really puts things like surgery on a "only if we have to" basis. So we've been nursing his arm lately.

 

I will be ready to drop another 12.5 mgs again in a week or so I believe, as that seems to be something I can handle. It's actually a smaller drop than the 10% that you all have been telling me about...I think. LOL! :wacko: My brain isn't working as well as I think it is sometimes thanks to the tick-borne infections that I'm still dealing with.

 

Again, I would like to thank everyone for their support, input, and help! With your help I will get off of these wicked things!!!

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Altostrata

Trav, it sounds like you've found a rate of tapering that works for you -- we're all for that! A 10% reduction is suggested only as a starting point.

 

When you have a chance, please start a topic for yourself in the Introductions forum and post your updates in it, so you and others can follow your progress.

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