Lumpy: Benzo taper finished. Help with Amitriptyline and Cipralex

[Lumpy]

Thank you for your reply - it is reassuring to know all that I feel is normal. 

Many thanks for your time.

Lumpy

[Lumpy]

Hi,

I am back for guidance and advice. I have been off Lorazepam for 13 months. It has been a very difficult 13 months. My main symptom is crazy anxiety, along with jerks, flushing and crying spells with dark depression. However, I have had some windows where the symptoms are more manageable. I kept a log - March 2020 - 6 weeks, August 12 better days. September 25 better days (this was a good month), October to present - I have been in a wave for 6 weeks. Evenings are always better than during the day.

 

I reduced my amitriptyline from August 1st at 10% every 4 weeks until I reached 50mg. I did this because I kept being prescribed different brands for the 10mg tablets. After taking a new brand my anxiety ramped up. So I am now down to one 50mg tablet which is where I want to stay until I am done with a Cipralex taper.

 

Even though I am not in a great place right now, I would like to start coming down on my Cipralex. Do you think waiting 13 months is long enough after my last Lorazepam. I know the withdrawal journey from Benzos can be a long one. I am keen to get going on the ADs, I was prescribed them after my first failed taper of Lorazepam, not realising all my symptoms were related to withdrawal.

 

I have a weighing scale and would like to dry cut as I did for the amitriptyline taper to 50mg. 

 

I have asked for a new prescription of 2 x 5mg tablets rather than the 10mg - I felt this would be better as once I get to 5mg I can easily hold on 5mg for a while if I need to. 

I have read the ingredient list for the 5mg tablet and they are the same as the 10mg Cipralex so I am hoping switching to the 2 x 5mg should not cause any problems. I am due to start this new regime in 6 days. 

 

I see my recovery in small steps and my next is a 6 month reduction on Cipralex to 5mg. I can't think too long term as the amount of time this is going to take me, scares me. Will my healing from Lorazepam still continue as I reduce my Cipralex. I have been holding on so long to start cutting the ADs, I know 13 months isn't huge in the world of withdrawal but I am not sure I can wait until full recovery as I may be waiting years. 

 

I look forward to hearing you advice and views. Many thanks Lumpy

 

 

 

 

 

[Shep]

21 minutes ago, Lumpy said:

I reduced my amitriptyline from August 1st at 10% every 4 weeks until I reached 50mg. I did this because I kept being prescribed different brands for the 10mg tablets. After taking a new brand my anxiety ramped up. So I am now down to one 50mg tablet which is where I want to stay until I am done with a Cipralex taper.

 

Even though I am not in a great place right now, I would like to start coming down on my Cipralex. Do you think waiting 13 months is long enough after my last Lorazepam.

 

Lumpy, how is your sleep? Is 50 mg amitriptyline still helping with sleep? 

 

You're correct that benzo withdrawal can last a long time. Are you seeing any overall improvements? 

 

If do decide to go ahead and taper the Cipralex, perhaps start with a micro-taper of 3 or 5% and see how you do. 

 

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

 

You may want to use the Brassmonkey Slide:

 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

You can adjust the slide to accommodate as slow a taper as you wish.

 

Please let us know what you decide. 

 

 

[Lumpy]

Hi, thank you for your reply. Yes my sleep is good still.

 

The improvements from the lorazepam just seem to come in windows, when I am back in a wave it feels the same level of intense anxiety. One thing I have noticed is my DP/DR has really reduced and so far has not reappeared in a wave, so I suppose that is one good thing.

 

If I go with the brassmonkey slide - which is what I did with the amitriptyline the first 2 months. If I start with 10% divided into 4 week reductions then hold for 2 weeks - do you think this is OK or would the microtaper be best to start with?

thanks

[Shep]

21 hours ago, Lumpy said:

If I go with the brassmonkey slide - which is what I did with the amitriptyline the first 2 months. If I start with 10% divided into 4 week reductions then hold for 2 weeks - do you think this is OK or would the microtaper be best to start with?

 

I would go with 3 - 5% to start. You can always increase towards 10% a month if it goes well with a smaller reduction. 

 

It's great your sleep is good and the dp/dr is less. 

[Lumpy]

Hi

 

I am back for more advice. 

So December 1st 2020 I decided to start my taper from Cipralex.

I cut 10% of 10mg to 9mg - the first 4 weeks were tough but I felt I levelled out and actually had a window by week 5/6. It lasted 5 days.

 

Mid Jan 2021 - I then decided to try splitting the next cut over 4 weeks and holding for 2 aka brassmonkey slide - it was OK, not as brutal but also no window and just constant withdrawal symptoms. this took me down to 8.1mg

 

BUT to complicate everything - at the beginning of December at the same time as making my first Cipralex cut I found out my eostrogen levels were really high and panicked and quit taking my HRT cold turkey. I have been on 4 pumps of oestrogel (the max dose) for 2 years and it did help with night time hot flushes, sleeping and internal tremors - all my original symptoms that led me into this drug nightmare. I am 49 and probably just need some HRT. 

 

At first i didn't really notice much difference and given the window in January felt things were going smoothly, well as smooth as withdrawal can be! By mid February the hot flashes returned and even stronger plus internal tremors and not such good sleep. I know i should not have just quit but thought getting rid of all drugs would be the best way - I now know this not to be the case and that oestrogen indeed does also need to be tapered. So i decided to go back on my HRT and started at 2 pumps of oestrogel (the starting dose) beginning of March. 3 weeks in I have noticed a slight improvement with hot flushes and internal tremor.

 

I decided to do my 3rd cut of Cipralex 1st March at the full 10% cut and wait 6 weeks. So i am now at 7.3mg and been holding for 3 weeks - I am doing 6 week holds so have another 3 weeks to go. Everything is tough - no let up in withdrawal symptoms - severe anxiety, depression, twitching, pins and needles - these have been my continual symptoms since coming off Lorazepam 17 months ago - I did have some good windows last year but am feeling this journey i'm on is a really long road. 

 

Still on 50mg amitriptyline - my sleep is OK, not as good as before with more night waking but always able to go back to sleep. My symptoms still follow the daily pattern they have all along - daily fluctuations worse at 10am, 2 pm and 5pm with general easing in the evening.

 

I suppose I am here for reassurance - to also know it is possible to heal while on HRT, if you have other people who have. I think now it will be the last thing i withdraw and will taper next time. Will my Cipralex taper be tough the whole way down or is there any hope I may feel OK. I then have to tackle amitriptyline - the journey feels so long. 

 

Many thanks

Lumpy

[Colonial]

Hi Lumpy,

 

I've read your thread just now straight through from the beginning.

What I've noticed over all is your really seem propelled internally to get off all the meds asap.

 

You've had a pretty rough go of it with symptoms, but you do seem driven to go as close to full steam ahead as your able.

So far the amitriptyline and the Cipralex drops and going on and off the HRT hasn't affected you too badly but You are pushing the envelope a bit.

 

You have progressed a bit faster than the recommendations, so far it hasn't been too bad. 

I would just caution you it may be a prudent time to slow up for a bit until you get your HRT settled.

 

 "Everything is tough - no let up in withdrawal symptoms - severe anxiety, depression, twitching, pins and needles - these have been my continual symptoms since coming off Lorazepam 17 months ago -"

 

You've had a lot going on. Perhaps smaller cuts or longer holds for a period of time might help with the symptoms.

I know you want to be off the meds asap but pushing too fast tends to only keep us symptomatic.

Maybe if you weren't so symptomatic you wouldn't feel so "rushed" to make progress?

 

"I know 13 months isn't huge in the world of withdrawal but I am not sure I can wait until full recovery as I may be waiting years."

 

Why is it that Your not "able" to wait?

Is an extra year or 2 in totality of the entire journey added together really a bad thing? 

I'm trying to understand why you feel so propelled from within to get off all meds asap.

 

I'm not saying You should wait a year to make another drop, I'm just sensing you feel so driven to go as fast as you can, and you might not realize it.

Your already dealing with the Lorazepam WD, I'd hate to see you push yourself too fast at the lower levels of these meds and truly be in a bad place.

 

"Will my Cipralex taper be tough the whole way down or is there any hope I may feel OK.?"

 

I think if you keep pushing 10% every 6 weeks, you could probably expect it to stay this tough or get worse at the lower med levels.

The mods suggested 3-5% to test the waters.

Maybe holding for 2 months and then slowing to a 5% reduction will help the symptoms.

 

Well, Have a great rest of the weekend, and Happy Spring! 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

[Lumpy]

Hi Colonial,

 

Thank you for your reply. You are right, I am very keen to get of all medication. It has never made me well and I now know that I probably had an adverse reaction to Sertraline which I only took for 9 weeks and went cold turkey - I got worse and worse over the 9 weeks. All the other drugs added since then have never worked apart from Amitriptyline which did restore my sleep.

 

I know the Cipralex is a tough one.  I am definitely feeling these 10% cuts - it is obviously too much for my system. Can I ask if you think it is ok to do 5% cuts and hold for 3 to 4 weeks - which would still total the 10% over 6 -8 weeks. I will hold a while longer from this cut to see what happens - I have 3 weeks left to hold anyway but will add more weeks as you suggested.

 

The first time I did a 10% cut by week 6 I experienced some windows.

 

My aim is to get down to 5mg and do a long hold there - so I can have a break from cutting tablets. 

 

I want to get back to who I was prior to taking all these drugs - with just help from HRT.

 

Many thanks for your reply. Lumpy

[Colonial]

3 hours ago, Lumpy said:

Can I ask if you think it is ok to do 5% cuts and hold for 3 to 4 weeks - which would still total the 10% over 6 -8 weeks. I

 

In the long run that would still put you at the same amount of decrease.

My concern is that at this speed it is going to eventually catch up to you and give you a nasty crash.

 

You had the curve ball thrown at you of the change in one med formulation which was out of your control, and you've managed to get down from the 70 to 50 without getting all that worse, but no improvements either.  Then you sort of "raced" right into dropping the Cipralex.

 

I like the 6 weeks hold in between drops, since your body is still trying to stabilize from multiple drugs.

I would just caution You may want to consider lowering the % Your attempting to cut for 3 cycles and see if you improve overall.

There's nothing that say you have to go to 5%, we sometimes accidentally get caught in predetermined numbers, percentages or weeks.

You could try a 7% drop every 6 weeks for 18 weeks and reevaluate. 

Or a drop close to that, that puts you on a marker line that is easier to see on the syringe, it might be somewhere from 6.8 to 7.2

 

3 hours ago, Lumpy said:

I want to get back to who I was prior to taking all these drugs - with just help from HRT.

 

The only caveat there is, that is not contingent on how fast you get off them.

Many people who "rush" off them take longer to recover that those who did a longer taper.

That's the paradox of these meds, someone who "rushed" off in only 3 years may suffer longer than someone who took 5 years to taper slower.

 

 

[Lumpy]

I meant to say thank you for your response - I will slow down and see how i go the next 3 cuts.

Lumpy

[Lumpy]

Hi 

I haven’t been here for a while which I think is a good thing. So since March I have followed the brass monkey slide of 10% cuts of last dose, 6 weeks. I have been coping well with the symptoms and actually was feeling better than I have in a long time. I hit a wave over Christmas that felt worse than I had had for a few months - thankfully I seemed to come out after 7-10days and started feeling back to withdrawal normal. I am down to 3.6mg on Cipralex and still holding at 50mg on amitriptyline. I am currently at week 6 holding. Last Friday I got Covid and my withdrawal symptoms have spiked massively. Lots I haven’t had for a long time. The anxiety that had been much milder for months has spiked along with depression and lots of bodily feelings. Can Covid effect withdrawal or is this just a bad wave. What should I do? Next week is week 1 of a 2.5% cut, should I wait and hold? 
thank you 

[ChessieCat]

Any stress, even good stress like going on a holiday, can cause withdrawal symptoms to increase.  Some members have experienced worsened symptoms after exercise, eating too much or certain foods.  And the Christmas holidays can be stressful for people and we have members of SA who hold over the holiday season.

 

And currently your body is going through a lot of stress fighting the Covid virus.

 

I would definitely NOT be making a further reduction until you are stabilised:

 

Stability

 

WDnormal

 

And Brassmonkey talks more about it here:

 

tao-of-the-brassmonkey

[Lumpy]

16 hours ago, Lumpy said:

Hi 

I haven’t been here for a while which I think is a good thing. So since March I have followed the brass monkey slide of 10% cuts of last dose, 6 weeks. I have been coping well with the symptoms and actually was feeling better than I have in a long time. I hit a wave over Christmas that felt worse than I had had for a few months - thankfully I seemed to come out after 7-10days and started feeling back to withdrawal normal. I am down to 3.6mg on Cipralex and still holding at 50mg on amitriptyline. I am currently at week 6 holding. Last Friday I got Covid and my withdrawal symptoms have spiked massively. Lots I haven’t had for a long time. The anxiety that had been much milder for months has spiked along with depression and lots of bodily feelings. Can Covid effect withdrawal or is this just a bad wave. What should I do? Next week is week 1 of a 2.5% cut, should I wait and hold? 
thank you 

Thank you for your reply - I will hold until symptoms are back to withdrawal normal. Could you remind me how to update my signature- I can’t remember. Thanks x

[Shep]

On 1/19/2022 at 6:20 AM, Lumpy said:

Could you remind me how to update my signature- I can’t remember.

 

A direct link is here:

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

[Lumpy]

Hi,

I need some reassurance. I had been tapering successfully using Brass Monkey slide method from Cipralex (lexapro). All was very manageable and was actually feeling better than I had in a long time since coming of my Benzo. I got Covid 2 weeks ago and my Covid symptoms have gone but I have been left in the most awful wave of withdrawal. As bad as when I first came off the benzo. It's been 2 weeks now and I was really hoping things would have settled down. I have been holding on the Cipralex and have not made any changes since getting Covid. I'm scared that this has sent me back into a long term withdrawal. I was doing everything right in my tapering and was so encouraged as I was feeling soooo much better for the last 4-6 months. Nothing like normal but at least 70%. How long could this wave last and how long do I wait. So scared and discouraged - thought all this horrible anxiety and fear was behind me. 

thank you for your help 

[brassmonkey]

Hi Lumpy-- I'm sorry to hear that you've been so sick and have had such a setback in an otherwise good taper. It sounds like you are doing all the right things but are up against a real unknown. Even will the huge number or people contracting COVID, there still isn't enough information of its long term to make any real judgements. It is known that there can be psychological symptoms that continue for some time after recovery from the initial infection. How long they last however is not understood. It is also known that these symptoms can be worse in people who previously/ currently are having psych problems.

 

These new symptoms are a direct result of the infection and exacerbate the ones we are already feeling, and so far, no one has found anything that will help. It seems that time is the only cure. I would suggest holding for several more weeks to see if they resolve on their own before continuing to taper. 

 

Sorry I can't be more positive, but this is a whole new area and there is a lot of information we still don't have.

[Lumpy]

Thank you - I will hold as you say for several weeks. I will stay in touch with how I am feeling and carry on getting your advice. 

Thanks Lumpy

[Lumpy]

wavesandwindows.xlsxI am still in the thick of it, yesterday was just awful, totally non functional. Extreme anxiety, exhaustion and all sorts of weird body sensations. Worst night sleep in a long time, kept waking with adrenaline surges. Today I am at least up and dressed and trying to distract through the anxiety symptoms. I have always kept a diary of good and bad days. Today I thought it would be useful to chart it - see attached file. I have found this really useful and can clearly see my waves and windows patterns. It is encouraging to see so much more green days. I can see that i had a bit of a wave after Christmas and was coming out of it to then get hit with Covid which has sent me into an awful wave. I just wanted to share and see if anyone has any thoughts or feedback. I started when i came off my Benzo and have added when i started my Cipralex taper and when I got Covid. Any thoughts much appreciated.Thank you so much. 

[sufferingpassenger]

@Lumpy hi - just a quick check in to see how are you feeling? I am in a similar situation with Covid flared wave and keen to learn from your experience.

[Lumpy]

Hi,

yes I am still in this wave. I had the last two days where symptoms were reduced and was hopeful to be coming out but today back in the thick of it. I also belong to a benzo support group and people have also experienced this from Covid, again people who had been having good windows and then thrown back. The people who are through it says it does get better. It just takes time. I know we are all different but it seems 2 - 3 months is a good timescale. Some started to turn the corner at 4 weeks. Yesterday my crippling anxiety was so reduced and it felt great but yep today awful again. Keep holding on - we will both get there. Be strong as that’s all you can be right now. Xxxx

[Hank89]

Hi,

Just wanted to say that I am in the same boat as well… Have been in withdrawal for almost 2 years and in January I finally felt I was doing better overall with a much longer window than usual. Then I got Covid 24 th of January which wasn’t too bad. It went away after 4 days, but since then I have been in the most horrible wave of depression and almost constant state of fear. It has never been so bad as it is right now. Reading your stories give me some hope though. Even if it’s devastating to be back to zero, it’s good to know that there seem to be a cause of it and that it’s hopefully temporary and that we will come back stronger again with time.

[sufferingpassenger]

@Hank89  @Lumpy Lets just keep reminder ourselves that this will pass. I can confirm that the wave I had because of the vaccination passed. The infection definitely shakes the immune system much more than the vaccine itself. So I the Lumpy's suggestion to give it 4 week and hold till then absolutely makes sense.

 

Also the big positive it that Lumpy has seen a window! Which means that his CNS is fighting back!

[Ktven48]

I pray all of us come out of the Covid wave soon. I am 6 weeks in it with 2 or 3 good days thrown into the mix. Such a shame because the good days have been mostly back to my normal self. I even wanted to go out to dinner with my husband which I haven’t done in 7 months! Then the bad days have been as terrible as the beginning. Does this sound like recovery? How can it flip flop so greatly?

 

🙏We deserve some peace ❤️ To you all @sufferingpassenger @Hank89

@Lumpy . Terrible we have to go through this but at least we are not alone. 

[Lumpy]

Hi @Hank89  @sufferingpassenger @Ktven48 

how is everyone doing? 5 weeks into Covid and still awful. This morning just feel like I’m hanging on by my fingertips! My symptoms seem to cycle between days with incredible off the chart anxiety to days where the anxiety is lower but the physical systems spike like burning skin, internal vibrations and total fatigue. I find the mental anxiety the hardest to handle. How are you all doing? Some windows would give me hope. Much love to all 

lumpy x

[sufferingpassenger]

Hi @Lumpy My heart goes out to hear that your wave is still so harsh. I have had some respite with my anxiety levels going down however I have a low level depression lingering over me. I get some respite from this over the evenings. However, I can see that the Covid triggered wave is gradually settling down.

 

I am doing some Pranayama that seems to be helping me.

 

I pray for you and really hope that you get a window very soon.

 

 

[Lumpy]

3 minutes ago, sufferingpassenger said:

Hi @Lumpy My heart goes out to hear that your wave is still so harsh. I have had some respite with my anxiety levels going down however I have a low level depression lingering over me. I get some respite from this over the evenings. However, I can see that the Covid triggered wave is gradually settling down.

 

I am doing some Pranayama that seems to be helping me.

 

I pray for you and really hope that you get a window very soon.

 

 

Thank you for replying - that is so good to hear - it gives me so much hope x

[Ktven48]

7 weeks in here. I think I can safely say my anxiety is also going down. I have been able to leave the house more. In better moods during the day. Still some light buzzing and physical anxiety symptoms but I think with each week they are decreasing 5-10%.

The panic feeling has lessened. My sleep is still very poor but I take it as my brain healing. I haven’t cried in about a week or so (severe depressive crying). Still a little weepy here and there. 
 

I have a little more hope that healing is happening very very slowly. Hopefully next week is better. ❤️

[Lumpy]

10 minutes ago, Ktven48 said:

7 weeks in here. I think I can safely say my anxiety is also going down. I have been able to leave the house more. In better moods during the day. Still some light buzzing and physical anxiety symptoms but I think with each week they are decreasing 5-10%.

The panic feeling has lessened. My sleep is still very poor but I take it as my brain healing. I haven’t cried in about a week or so (severe depressive crying). Still a little weepy here and there. 
 

I have a little more hope that healing is happening very very slowly. Hopefully next week is better. ❤️

This is so good to hear too - just brings tears to my eyes knowing there is an end. Thank you for sharing - it may help others. I’m a little bit behind you and I think I had a big viral load of Covid as I tested positive on a LFT for 16 days. Xxxx

[sufferingpassenger]

@Lumpy this wave might be tougher for you but I am confident you will turn the corner soon. I have a work colleague who is facing similar challenge post covid and he now started to see things change at the 8 week mark. I know its tough but we are praying for you ... hang in there and the sun will shine soon!

[Lumpy]

17 hours ago, sufferingpassenger said:

@Lumpy this wave might be tougher for you but I am confident you will turn the corner soon. I have a work colleague who is facing similar challenge post covid and he now started to see things change at the 8 week mark. I know its tough but we are praying for you ... hang in there and the sun will shine soon!

Thank you for the amazing support- fingers crossed it’s not too much longer. X

[sufferingpassenger]

@Lumpy Quick checkin to see how you are feeling? I really hope that your patience is paying off and you can see some tangible changes.

[Lumpy]

6 hours ago, sufferingpassenger said:

@Lumpy Quick checkin to see how you are feeling? I really hope that your patience is paying off and you can see some tangible changes.

Hi thank you for checking in - 7 weeks now and no big change. I did have one day last week that was easier but then by Friday it was awful. I’m still hanging onto hope. How are you now? Thank you for checking in. X

[sufferingpassenger]

Glad that you had a break from the wave last week. May be its a message that your CNS is now finding the path to recovery. Wishing you all the patience and strength!

 

 

[sufferingpassenger]

hi mate - how are you doing? hope your windows are getting wider.

[Lumpy]

Unfortunately still in the thick of it. 10 weeks now - so hoping it turns soon. The anxiety is the worst. I have a few days this week where the anxiety did feel lower but did still feel very unwell and exhausted. I have been able to read a book this week on some days. Just praying my time comes soon. Xxxx

[Lumpy]

@AltostrataI am stuck and really need advice. 
In January I caught Covid and entered into what only can be described as acute withdrawal symptoms. I know Covid can cause this and I am still waiting patiently for it to pass. I have been holding on my Cipralex withdrawal this whole time. The only problem I now have is I am getting a terrible reaction from taking my amitriptyline every night. I take 50mg before bed and after about an hour I feel a surge of adrenaline and feel wired yet tired. I get burning skin and hot flashes all night. It gives me tingling in my arms and hands and awful sleep and crazy jerks and brain zaps. In my whole journey off my benzo 2.5 years ago and during my Cipralex taper I have never experienced this. It feels like amitriptyline has just turned on me. God knows what Covid has done to my body but I feel in acute withdrawal most days. I have had a few brief window moments in the last week. 
I know I need to just hold strong re the long covid but I really need to know what to do about the amitriptyline. Should I try a reduction to see if it helps? Or just stay where I am. I take 2 x 25mg tablets. I was wondering if I tried taking them at different times if this would help. I feel so lost as I was doing so well before I caught Covid and never had this problem with amitriptyline before. It always helped me sleep the whole way through my benzo taper and withdrawal. I know there are other people who have experienced the same post covid symptoms as me and some of them have made improvements. Your advice would be amazing. Thank you