Psychiatric drugs toxicity - permanent damage?

[tanit]

Treatment with fluoxetine (Prozac) has been shown to cause persistent desensitization of 5HT1A receptors after removal of the SSRI in rats. [32] These long-term adaptive changes in 5-HT receptors, as well as more complex, global changes, are thought to be mediated through alterations of gene expression. [33][34][35][36][37] Some of these gene expression changes are a result of altered DNA structure caused by chromatin remodeling, [38][39] specifically epigenetic modification of histones [40] and gene silencing by DNA methylation due to increased expression of the methyl binding proteins MeCP2 and MBD1. [41] Altered gene expression and chromatin remodeling may also be involved in the mechanism of action of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). [42][43]

Because described gene expression changes are complex, and can involve persistent modifications of chromatin structure, it has been suggested that SSRI use can result in persistently altered cerebral gene expression leading to compromised catecholaminergic neurotransmission and neuroendocrine disturbances. [13] However, without detailed neuropsychopharmacological, pharmacogenomic and toxicogenomic [44] research, the definitive cause remains unknown.

http://wp.rxisk.org/post-ssri-sexual-dysfunction-pssd-wikipedia-stumbles/

[Addax]

Your heading is misleading. Persistence is not perminence. Additionally, SSRIs and the side effects, including the PSSD that the article you posted is discussing, have not been studied long enough to conclude permanence, particularly in humans.

[tanit]

if anything changes chromatin then it is permanent .

sorry to burst you bubble .That is what I was taught in med school and what anyone with rudimentary knowledge in biology will tell you .

[alex]

RXISK.ORG/:"this condition HAS NOT been well established or studied in the medicine field..."

I am a 61yrs man.I am struggling with pssd in the form of premature ejaculation.

I have noticed that part of the dysfunction is due to anxiety, a common symptom of W/D Syndrome.

It is getting SLOWLY better, as the other symptoms,dysphoria, sleep,tiredness...

Besides, I don't see the point of posting scary things that don't have a strong scientific basis in this forum.

We are here to give each other support and HOPE.PLEASE!!

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Tanit,

 

Before you post a topic in this forum you need to read and follow the guidelines in this post:

 

Before you start a topic in Journals

 

The link leads to the first topic which has all of the instructions. Journal citations need to follow a strict format in order to be useful here. Addax is trying to tell you that your information is misleading and we do not want to mislead anyone here.

 

if anything changes chromatin then it is permanent .

sorry to burst you bubble .That is what I was taught in med school and what anyone with rudimentary knowledge in biology will tell you .

 

is not a statement that is substantiated with the appropriate references.

 

You are welcome to repost the appropriate journal article with the required citations according to the format above.

[alex]

Oh, one more thing, we are not rats,,,,

I believe in the infinite power of human spirit.

Time, guts and faith.

 Hang in there.

[tanit]

you are reacting very emotionally to scientific facts

Hope is not synonymous of lies .

There is hope but also there are  facts and only by not ignoring the facts because they make us feel bad , we can act on the damage and may be someday reverse it

[Addax]

I had no bubble to burst, Tanit. I was simply pointing out that what you posted is not sufficient to use the word permanant. And even if the change is permanent, it doesn't mean the condition is. Remembers neuroadaptivity, compensatory mechanisms... I understand that you are scared. Withdrawal is scary, but you need to critically consider the research you read. Surely they taught you to do that in school.

[tanit]

Iam not scared .I accepted long ago the fact that I will have to live with some damage .

I simply don`t understand  people reaction here .

It is like they are completely in denial that there will be some changes that are irreversible(may be in few years thanks to medical progress)and that will need people engagement to find a solution. 

They may improve(some will FEEL like they were before ) but to say that everybody will  be 100% like before is a pure blatant lie.

I guess most need some lies to keep going but the future generation owes us the truth to not make our mistakes .

May be we need to stop being egoistic and self-centred and just expose those medications for what they truly are :poisons 

[alex]

you are reacting very emotionally to scientific facts

 

In my 61 years of life,I have seen enough scientific BS, I can assure you that....

"we can act on the damage and maybe reverse it some day" I like that part of your post.

My advice: keep it simple.I used to go all over the internet looking for information, that most of he time had negative feedback.NO good for W/D

 

Keep walking.

[Addax]

You think people are in denial, people may think you are reviewing the literature with a great deal of confirmation bias, and the two may never meet. Both sides can present or dispute evidence without driving themselves crazy trying to convince the other they are wrong.

[dalsaan]

Tanit,

 

Before you post a topic in this forum you need to read and follow the guidelines in this post:

 

Before you start a topic in Journals

 

The link leads to the first topic which has all of the instructions. Journal citations need to follow a strict format in order to be useful here. Addax is trying to tell you that your information is misleading and we do not want to mislead anyone here.

 

if anything changes chromatin then it is permanent .

sorry to burst you bubble .That is what I was taught in med school and what anyone with rudimentary knowledge in biology will tell you .

 

is not a statement that is substantiated with the appropriate references.

 

You are welcome to repost the appropriate journal article with the required citations according to the format above.

 

 

Tanit please repost the journal article in the format as requested (by Alto at the start of this forum) and by CW in this thread.

 

 

if anything changes chromatin then it is permanent .

sorry to burst you bubble .That is what I was taught in med school and what anyone with rudimentary knowledge in biology will tell you .

 

Are you sure about that?   https://books.google.com.au/books?id=yOAOrck_st8C&pg=PT195&lpg=PT195&dq=what+is+chromatin+remodelling+and+is+it+reversible&source=bl&ots=AULcugnbxQ&sig=OFOMIdboZ6Z56XwtcO-eOWjuuI0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TMXXVMT-Msbc8AXwvYHAAg&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=what%20is%20chromatin%20remodelling%20and%20is%20it%20reversible&f=false

[chicken]

Some things may be permanent but  in my case I took prozac for 10 years. I was off of it for 4 years with absolutely no problems, nothing permanent that I could detect. Years later my original problem did relapse. Ignorantly I thought prozac may help again but I had a severe adverse reaction. I tried a couple of other SSRIs but my brain rejected all of  them.

 

I do believe something was permanentely changed because my brain violently reacted to the SSRI. However, I don't think that whatever was changed permanently makes me feel any different. Psychologically I recovered 100% from the prozac but I think something changed since I cannot take an SSRI again.

[degen12]

The OP's snippet is part of a larger journal article called "Epigenetic side-effects of common pharmaceuticals: A potential new field in medicine and pharmacology", which is found in the "From journals and scientific sources" sub-forum here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2550-csoka-2009-epigenetic-side-effects-of-common-pharmaceuticals-a-potential-new-field-in-medicine-and-pharmacology/

 

More recently, I posted both the journal article abstract and snippet in a newer thread, though perhaps I should have left talk of it to its respective thread. It is found here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/749-andrews-2011-blue-again-perturbational-effects-of-antidepressants/

 

Finally, the article uses the words "can result" and not "results in", and "persistently" and not "permanently".

[stan]

Does it exist proofs that there is never permanent damage from paxil, celexa...that they are only persistent, but in this case, persistent 40 years or 4 years or 4 months? what for these genetic modifications Rhi explained in withdrawal post, do they reverse opposite? when?

Or need we say that we do not know  about persistent and permanent with actual knowledge and give an answer in one way or another is based on nothing.

Looking at my case, i seem permanent damaged, but if in a few years i will be 90 % recovered, i will say there is no permanent damage, so we need to be patient as i am forced to be patient. And wait a big scientist will give a proof in one way or another, or it is more complicate, some people do not have permanent damage, and some have permanent? Shipko and Breggin seem more for permanent sometime, Healy wants to treat with new meds, Whitaker is looking, and i am suffering...I am impatient to post my recovery story... 

[alex]

Well, I think it depends on the individual.

At 2 and a half years off Effexor, I can say my recovery has been HUGE.

I truly believe that if I keep like this,in one year or maybe less, I'll be able to live a life very close to normal.And the healing continues.

I am 61.

[btdt]

Your heading is misleading. Persistence is not perminence. Additionally, SSRIs and the side effects, including the PSSD that the article you posted is discussing, have not been studied long enough to conclude permanence, particularly in humans.

7 years 3 months ... 

 

how long do you think we need to wait? 

[compsports]

 

Your heading is misleading. Persistence is not perminence. Additionally, SSRIs and the side effects, including the PSSD that the article you posted is discussing, have not been studied long enough to conclude permanence, particularly in humans.

7 years 3 months ... 

 

how long do you think we need to wait? 

 

Excellent question.

 

I believe in being optimistic also but at the same time, I think it is insulting to tell people like you who have suffered for so long to minimize concerns about something being permanent.

[Addax]

Compsport-

 

I'm not sure why what I wrote sounded like minimization of anything. I was simply saying that permanance of anything cannot be concluded given the available research, and particularly based on one article.

 

As far as btdt's question, I have no idea. Sure, it's possible that something's might be permanent, but there simply isn't sufficient research to conclude that. At least not yet. Additionally, what might be permanent for some may not be for others. As you know there is considerable variance in duration and intensity of symptoms. There may also be genetic mediators, difference depending on which SSRI, whether someone used another drug in addition to the SSRI, substance abuse may play a roll. But to simply state that something is a permanent side effect, and do so using just one one article that doesn't even conclude that... That's irrisponsible. Particularly when this person is claiming to have a medical background and they are posting in a forum where the overwhelming majority of people reading it are laypersons.

 

I'm not an advocate of false hope, but I am an advocate of criticle literature review.

 

This obviously struck a cord with you, and I'm sorry you felt insulted.

[Altostrata]

Very happy to see the high level of critical thinking in this discussion! Please do carry on.

[compsports]

Compsport-

 

I'm not sure why what I wrote sounded like minimization of anything. I was simply saying that permanance of anything cannot be concluded given the available research, and particularly based on one article.

 

As far as btdt's question, I have no idea. Sure, it's possible that something's might be permanent, but there simply isn't sufficient research to conclude that. At least not yet. Additionally, what might be permanent for some may not be for others. As you know there is considerable variance in duration and intensity of symptoms. There may also be genetic mediators, difference depending on which SSRI, whether someone used another drug in addition to the SSRI, substance abuse may play a roll. But to simply state that something is a permanent side effect, and do so using just one one article that doesn't even conclude that... That's irrisponsible. Particularly when this person is claiming to have a medical background and they are posting in a forum where the overwhelming majority of people reading it are laypersons.

 

I'm not an advocate of false hope, but I am an advocate of criticle literature review.

 

This obviously struck a cord with you, and I'm sorry you felt insulted.

Addax, my apologies as I agree you were criticizing the  literature link.

 

Regarding something being permanent, what if someone had symptoms for 10 years.   Would you still insist they wait for the literature to prove it?

[Addax]

Compsports- 

 

I would not insist that anyone do or think anything or provide proof of their experience. If symptoms persisted for 10 years I would not try to tell them that their experience is invalid because it's not supported by the literature or because their isn't enough literature.  

 

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure I understand your question.  What is it that needs to be proved?  If someone has experienced symptoms for 10 years, then they have experienced symptoms for 10 years.  What sort of literature would be able to prove their experience?

 

If someone is going to imply that symptoms are permanent across the board and across all people, then yes, I would want to see proof or even consensus within the literature or even within anecdotal evidence, or hell, even among clinical experiences!

 

Insisting that because their symptoms have persisted for 10 years it must be permanent for everyone, or because it's permanent in 10 genetically identical rats, kept in identical conditions, than it must be permanent in humans... is not acceptable.  If a large number of people had the same symptoms for 10 years and there was consensus within the research, then there's a good deal of evidence to support that someone's symptoms may persist for 10 years. Fine. But there's not even consensus among the small amount of literature available as far as I can tell.  And again, what was presented here in this thread as evidence of permanency of symptoms is insufficient... in my opinion.    

 

I'm not telling people to holdout for more research or saying that they need proof of their experience or what they believe.  I am simply saying that based on currently available research, and some of the short comings within the research designs themselves (for example, sample size, animal only studies, duration... to name a few) one cannot generalize the findings to all SSRI takers, nor say with complete certainty that a particular side effect or symptom is permanent.  At least not at this time.

 

If tanit or anyone believes their symptoms are permanent, that that is their experience, then that is their reality... they cannot, however, insist that it is everyone's reality without proof.

 

I am putting my soapbox back in the garage... for now.  

[Addax]

So here is a thread that provides a solid number of studies supporting then long-term persistence of pssd: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/786-papers-about-post-ssri-sexual-disorder-pssd/.  A good deal more than single article posted in support of permanent symptoms.  I believe there is suggestion of the possible permanence of PSSD in one or more of the articles.  Some people may view the articles as "proof" that PSSD is permanent. 

 

In regard to PSSD I may have to eat crow given my statement, "But there's not even consensus among the small amount of literature available as far as I can tell."  I haven't read the articles, so I haven't taken out a plate or utensils yet...   I'm sincerely hoping I wont have to because I haven't eaten meat since the early 90s.

 

Yeah... I apparently didn't get around to actually putting that box in the garage. I'll try again.

[btdt]

When it comes to studies I can pick a topic and find conflicting studies on just about anything... we have a problem in this area not just we but the entire scientific community. There is a good video by Ben Goldacre on utube.. what your doctor doesn't know about your drugs. He is a doctor and he tells it way better than I ever could. 

 

 We are wait for a study to tell us what permanent is... so we can decide .... What?  exactly? 

 

I think we are falling for some crap here. It doesn't matter if it is forever if your of child bearing age and have no kids and can't have any cause of this 10 years may be the missed window.  If you have PSSD when your 70 maybe you don't care as much. Sex has a lot to do with love and love has a lot to do with life if your missing it most of your life ... it does not matter if it is forever. Neither does it matter if it is permanent if you have lost 30 years of your life due to drug reactions and wd... who cares what somebody else thinks if permanent. One year is too long 30 is a travesty. 

[Addax]

When it comes to studies I can pick a topic and find conflicting studies on just about anything... we have a problem in this area not just we but the entire scientific community.

 

And that's just the published ones! 

 

[westcoast]

If the changes described in the article are persistent or permanent, does that imply that those changes are causing our symptoms and that therefore our symptoms will be permanent? I'd say 'no.' (But it is still possible, just not certain.) But I dislike very much learning that my brain is changed, and wonder what symptoms the changes cause, and worse, what lies ahead. I do improve by the month, but are other processes at work? My memory is noticeably poor. I get scolded at school for doing things arse-backwards...or going off half-cocked and just doing the task wrong, while blithely thinking I am doing it right. then I erase and start again. And do it wrong, the same way, again. I do this a lot, and it is worrisome. It's the new normal and I can live with it, but I hope it does not get worse. It's hard taking a scolding and not being able (willing?) to say I was messed up by drugs and a hospital-caused head injury due to drugs seizures.

[clearday]

if anything changes chromatin then it is permanent .

sorry to burst you bubble .That is what I was taught in med school and what anyone with rudimentary knowledge in biology will tell you .

 

Thanks for posting this interesting article - I benefited from it - but forgive me if I have a different take-away from it than you do;

 

I spent much time at college level Organic Chemistry, Biochemistry, Genetics, Biology, Evolution etc, so I certainly have a rudimentary knowledge in biology...

 

Until recently, they used to teach in Med School, that we are born with a finite amount of brain cells, and that they never regenerated. That has long since been disproven....So there was a time when one could say, "Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of biology will tell you that we have a finite number of brain cells, which can never be regenerated once destroyed...." and that would have been a dead-wrong statement.....

 

Until recently, molecular geneticists "had no idea" what all our non-transcription (non-coding) DNA was for, they called it "junk DNA" and felt it was just some useless artifact of evolution. Any scientist with a good nose would suspect that nature wouldn't waste time creating all that DNA structure for nuttin'. So of course it was no surprise when it was discovered that this "junk DNA" is actually complex regulatory DNA, homeobox genes, etc all essential to the function of life.

 

You also say "if anything changes chromatin, then it is permanent", (PERIOD!)

 

Sounds too similar to modern psychiatrists asserting that " SSRI Withdrawal cannot last more than six weeks, PERIOD!"

 

Modern medicine is fantastic when it comes to certain things like heart surgery. But when it comes to understanding DNA, and managing SSRIs, they are BABES IN THE WOODS.

 

I would beware of such absolutist statements propagated by Med Schools which time and time again are disproven.

 

Don't forget, DNA is constantly being damaged by toxins, and DNA IS CONSTANTLY REPAIRING ITSELF from this damage and damage due to errors in replication.

 

Posting one paper which asserts that SSRIs cause persistent DNA damage, specifically to the Chromatin complex (not permanent, as you are asserting) is very interesting, thank you again - I mean it - I am very glad they are looking into what these SSRI poisons are actually doing to us at the molecular level. But this information is far from establishing an indisputable fact of permanent damage.   

 

I do leave room for the possibility that these drugs can cause permanent changes in some cases. That can be due to many things such as age and the overall health and drug load of the individual. But time and time again we are shown how resilient our body really is. And we certainly are no where near knowing THE FULL STORY of what exactly what is going on at the cellular level, never mind the molecular level. 

 

I try to have respect for the many things we just don't know about such complex things as DNA....... JUNK DNA?? Really?? ......

 

And BTW, do those poor rats have a support group to get through their protracted SSRI withdrawal ordeal??? What about the rats??   

 

Good luck in your recovery, tanit - no matter what, I'm sure we agree, withdrawal sucks!!! Please post some more pertinent scientific research re: SSRI effects, just be ready to have a chorus of protest and critical discussion. As a group, our experience of being misled by modern medicine forces us to not let ourselves be spoonfed information from modern medicine without giving it a full body cavity search first.       

[clearday]

Also should be noted, MOST patients who have been on these drugs for years - often a couple different types of SSRIs, often cocktails of ADs - completely recover after very brief withdrawal period. They are not walking, talking, genetically damaged mutants. So if these substances are out there ravaging our DNA, why such apparent  benign effect on the majority of humans? Any DNA changes they may have gone through have been repaired by available repair mechanisms.

 

WE protracted SSRI WD folks are the unfortunate minor percentage of patients who are genetically pre-disposed to taking a much longer time to bounce back to normal - to suffer from "persistent" changes in our biochemistry. And even plenty of us largely recover after one or more years; some take longer than others. Even we can recover. 

[Addax]

Clearday - 

 

I love what you wrote here :-)

 

Except for:

 

And BTW, do those poor rats have a support group to get through their protracted SSRI withdrawal ordeal??? What about the rats??   

 

 

It reminded me that I injected rats and pigeons full of benzo's while assisting a graduate student when I was an undergrad... it was a million years ago but still   . I'm almost positive there were no support groups for those little guys... I doubt they weren't even debriefed!   

[clearday]

 

It reminded me that I injected rats and pigeons full of benzo's while assisting a graduate student when I was an undergrad... it was a million years ago but still   . I'm almost positive there were no support groups for those little guys... I doubt they weren't even debriefed!   

 

 

lol, I know you see I was just trying to lighten the subject - 

 

sorry! I used to have pet mice and rats. As I type, a tiny little hamster is peacefully sleeping in his pile of wood shavings next to me. It's a brutal world. I am an animal lover, but the sad fact is that penicillin and all sorts of other life saving meds had to be tested on animals to find out which ones worked. I do support scaling back all that testing on animals, like testing shampoos, perfumes and other stuff like that on those innocent critters. It's a very controversial subject, I understand. I try to take a reasonable approach to the topic. But emotions run high. I'm sure some will disagree with me - I get it -

 

So that could be another separate thread, "Is it Ethical to Test ADs on Animals?" 

 

And yet, as I listen to the WD ringing in my ear as I type, one year off these SSRIs, and feel the WD head pressure and a weird wavy SSRI WD feeling, I remember that I am no better than a lab rat. So are all of us here. The difference is, no one in the medical establishment really cares to debrief us on how their great SSRI experiment is turning out. They don't care, because they are too busy counting the money they've made off us. In that sense, this isn't even respectable enough to be called an experiment. Because in an experiment, they actually want to know what happens to the participants. What we're part of is simply a mass reckless poisoning of thousands of patients who wind up with protracted SSRI WD, which could be avoided, or at the very least managed better. They don't care to listen to what their drugs have done to us. They're only happy when we say "Hey, doc, I feel better since you put me on Prozac!". They don't want to hear, "Hey doc, it's been eight months since I stopped Prozac, and I'm really suffering, my life has been derailed!". They blame us, then run and hide when we say that.  

[btdt]

Also should be noted, MOST patients who have been on these drugs for years - often a couple different types of SSRIs, often cocktails of ADs - completely recover after very brief withdrawal period. They are not walking, talking, genetically damaged mutants. So if these substances are out there ravaging our DNA, why such apparent  benign effect on the majority of humans? Any DNA changes they may have gone through have been repaired by available repair mechanisms.

 

WE protracted SSRI WD folks are the unfortunate minor percentage of patients who are genetically pre-disposed to taking a much longer time to bounce back to normal - to suffer from "persistent" changes in our biochemistry. And even plenty of us largely recover after one or more years; some take longer than others. Even we can recover. 

", MOST patients who have been on these drugs for years"  "They are not walking, talking, genetically damaged mutants."

 

How do you know?  

 

If Agnosia were to take place due to the drugs as Breggin says perhaps there are a lot of people damaged but who is going to hear them say it if they ever wake up and notice it. 

 

Breggin speaks to one sort of agnosia caused by the drugs.. as I get it a sort of not noticing the drugs are damaging them.  

 

I got very curious about that word and did some looking into it. 

 

I found this very interesting 

http://www.breggin.com/ECT/NrlgcFrgmntsCMFisher.pdf

 

Maybe it is not DNA but brains are just as important.. I would guess if your the one who owned the brain it becomes the most important brain in the world. 

 

I invite you to take a look at this list of things that can be wrong with a persons and they will think they are fine... I was in an accident once a bad one and I when in shock I thought I was fine... I was wrong.  Our brains can be tricked by these drugs that is obvious.  The other questions that beg to be asked after reading some about agnosia .. if these drugs can cause agnosia in the respect we do not see our own life falling apart.. could they also be the reason i could no longer read and or use a map... spatial agnosia they call that I think.  

 

I wonder what sorts of injuries psych patients have that were caused by drugs that are never ever reported by anyone a doctor that thinks it inate apatient that does not know and a grieving family who blame it all on mental illness 

 

it is interesting to me at least and possible ...like the folks in the end of Whitakers book they avoid psychiatry and try to go on with their lives as best they can .. that would be quite a cover up ... hiding in plain sight.  Nobody the wiser .. cut another disability cheque. 

[clearday]

btdt says, 

", MOST patients who have been on these drugs for years"  "They are not walking, talking, genetically damaged mutants."

How do you know?  

If Agnosia were to take place due to the drugs as Breggin says perhaps there are a lot of people damaged but who is going to hear them say it if they ever wake up and notice it. 

 

Hi beentheredonethat, thanks for pointing that out -

 

You're right, I don't know. I should have chosen my words better. I should have said, "They certainly don't appear to be walking, talking, genetically damaged mutants, and there's no indications that they are ". I have to go with reasonable conclusions based on observable behavior and evidence -

 

Great point about possible occurrence of Agnosia. But I would have to disagree with that, although again, "I don't know for sure"... -

 

I think if most former SSRI patients suffered from agnosia, their co-workers and family would be reporting odd behavior on a grand scale. So if someone has recovered from SSRIs says they feel the same as always, and hasn't recognized changes due to damage from SSRIs, the people surrounding them would recognize the resulting changes in behavior due to the damage. But to my knowledge there hasn't been mass reporting of obvious agnosia in former SSRI patients. And I am sticking with the large body of observable evidence in my argument, trying to avoid the "what ifs...."

[clearday]

btdt says...I wonder what sorts of injuries psych patients have that were caused by drugs that are never ever reported by anyone a doctor that thinks it inate apatient that does not know and a grieving family who blame it all on mental illness 

 

it is interesting to me at least and possible ...like the folks in the end of Whitakers book they avoid psychiatry and try to go on with their lives as best they can .. that would be quite a cover up ... hiding in plain sight.  Nobody the wiser .. cut another disability cheque. 

 

I certainly agree with you 100% here - 

 

Certainly these drugs have caused me long-term persistent health damage, which I still am healing from. And these drugs have derailed my career for sure, and affected me badly in other ways, and robbed me of certain opportunities. So for sure, these drugs cause unalterable harm to people's lives, DNA or no DNA. And I have said time and time again that these SSRI drugs cause protracted withdrawal symptoms that doctors blame on a patient's mental illness coming back after going off meds. I think we all agree with that!

 

But back to the DNA issue - many drugs, environmental toxins, even the sun can damage our DNA, which our bodies are able to repair (unless it gets out of control and causes cancer). As far as DNA damage is concerned, keep in mind that many reports are coming out in recent years demonstrating that drugs like alcohol CAN damage human DNA  http://www.firstpost.com/fwire/alcohol-may-permanently-damage-dna-causing-cancer-427684.html . But as this article states, that damage is largely reversible. And these articles only state that the DNA damage causes a risk for cancer, not causing permanent changes in the person's biochemistry or mental health. Many of these articles also remind the reader that we have natural DNA repair mechanisms.

 

I continue to heal from Lexapro, and expect it will take another year, based on my past healing from Prozac. I'm just not ready to jump to the conclusion that "SSRIs cause permanent, unrepairable damage to our mental health by altering our DNA". It could be, but I will need a large body of evidence for that, which does not yet exist. And the large body of evidence indicates that most people eventually recover from SSRI damage, to their own satisfaction, agnosia notwithstanding 

[btdt]

 And the large body of evidence indicates that most people eventually recover from SSRI damage, to their own satisfaction, agnosia notwithstanding

 

Where is this large body of evidence?  

I would like to see it.

[clearday]

 And the large body of evidence indicates that most people eventually recover from SSRI damage, to their own satisfaction, agnosia notwithstanding

 

Where is this large body of evidence?  

I would like to see it.

 

The evidence is from the patients themselves. Most former SSRI patients report minimal withdrawal symptoms which clear up within two months after stopping the drug.  That's all that matters, these hundreds of thousands of people say they don't feel any lingering effects from the drugs, they feel like their old selves (for better or for worse), unchanged, and continue with their lives for years as if nothing happened. And that is great!

 

Those of us suffering from protracted SSRI withdrawal here present an additional large body of evidence. We are reporting brutal, long term withdrawal symptoms from SSRIs that can last for many months and years. Many of us report feeling mostly better by three or four years after stopping the drugs. Some sooner, some later. 

 

I think what we care about most of all is how we feel. For me, all I really care about is feeling better. Our DNA gets damaged by many things, including aging, stress, alcohol, drugs, environmental toxins that wind up in our food, sunlight, etc. Our bodies are mostly able to repair the damage. So a study that says, "SSRIs damage DNA" is not so alarming unless accompanied by a large body of evidence demonstrating that these drugs are severely toxic. We're not seeing that yet. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in some circumstances. We just need more studies. If the majority of people report feeling fine while on these drugs and continue to feel fine some time after stopping the drugs, then that points to a low level of toxicity for most. For some reason, these drugs are more toxic to us who have protracted SSRI withdrawal syndrome.  These drugs have certainly caused me persisting damage that my body continues to try to heal. But I have plenty of reason to hope that I will continue to heal, but at a very slow pace.  

[btdt]

I think it possible probable or likely all those folks who "never had a problem" post ssri use have some degree of angnosia where they don't recognize the damage done to them as their brains have been rewired to a "new normal" they change and go on with smaller problems then us maybe but maybe not.. maybe they are just dx with other disorders as all these symptom fall into many other categories that are treated with other drugs... and they go forward best they can. With a new disorder and still no awareness to the harm caused to them.  

 

I have seen this over and over again. 

I was for instance told I had Fibro/chronic fatigue when I had a destabilized system after prozac... including pain and sleep issues... that is what was done with wd int he old days you got a new dx and more meds ya more Ads.  The sexual dysfunction was looked at and no cause for it was found but I have had it right up till when I used effexor when I went the other way to over sexed and over stimulated 

 

Just my opinion on the situation but I would not be surprised to see Breggins next book cover some of this. I for one hope he does.